Can we talk about Russia

Can we make this a thread in which we talk about Russia, Russian history, Russian politics and is their government bad/good or mixed etc?

I can start by saying I have been watching a lot of documentries about Russian history and I feel its a bit of a mixed bag. Its not as cut and dry and simpleton like to make it

One things I noticed. They’re slow at the start of a war. Take for example the Russians battling Napoleon or Germany or even in Syria. But eventually, they will get an upper hand. Kind of a terrifying country to go up against. They have warfighting tactics unlike others.

Russian history depresses the hell out of me, those people just can't seem to get a break :(

Russia has always proven a worthy foe historically speaking. Even when they "win", though, it's still at an insane cost. How many millions of Russians died in WWII? Soldiers and civilians?

@mrbojangles25: Around 27 million died.

Yeah.

I couldn't imagine anything like that happening to the US. I mean, I know it could, I just can't imagine it.

Like we go to war and 10 years later we've lost 1 million American lives? GTFO, never happen.

I am a novice and still learning but here is what I have surmised thus far.

-if you are Russian and comply with the rules life can be rather safe with free education, free health care. Safe at least from the goverment

-the government is ruthless if you oppose them

-they have plenty of ligament grievances toward the US. Both historically and currently. If I was Russian I would not be a fan of the US government at all.

Putin Specifically

-he is a religious person

-he likely knows Sun Tzu Art of War very well and likely others given his life long obsession with Judo

-Given his father and Russians history with Crimea. I think he takes them not being part of Russia personally.

and anyone who has read the Art of War understands why I am doing this research even though its purely academic.

Russian history is quite interesting. I'd love to visit at some point. It's a shame given the current political climate and state of affairs.

agreed.

in fact given current political climate I dont want to leave the states at all for fear of not being able to get back in

@tryit: Russia would be great. I think you would be fine visiting. I understand the hesitation.

I know Russian history very well from mainly WW 2. If you have any questions, let me know.

why are they our enemy now? I mean it sounds like their concerns with the US is justified, dont you?

@tryit: I wouldn’t say they’re our enemy. They were our enemy during during the Cold War. During World War 2 we were allies but had a weird relationship, kind of like now. Putin isn’t out to get us and destroy us or anything like that. I wouldn’t trust him for anything though. We’re either an obstacle or not a threat to him.

so why is the political climate right now acting as if working with Russia is such a huge hush hush thing. If they are not really our enemy why is the current administration so defensive about it? So for example if it was Great Britin would people be so defensive about it?

@tryit: That’s a little vague, can you bit a little more specific?

I dont think I can but I shall try.

When topics about Russia comes up (which seems often these days) why dont people become more open about positive aspects of Russian involvement in the world and the US instead of just shutting down and saying things like 'no collusion'. wouldnt it make more sense to make a case for Russia? I think the more everyone knows the better. dont you?

@tryit: Since there no context whatsoever I’ll go with people being on the defensive when they’re accused?

@mrbojangles25: it could happen if America decides to wage war on the Chinese in a decade or two when the Chinese have advanced to super power level both economic and military.

well that doesmt make sense as the most logical approach. The most logical approach would be to explain how working with Russia is a good tihng (assuming that it is). In the long run the greater truth is better I would think. I dont understand why there is not more people making the case for Russia. Maybe it will come later but I think its a valid approach to make, otherwise we (americans) are shooting around uninformed and that is never to the benifit of the country. we should know who to fear who not to fear and why. One needs to look at the larger picture and be willing to explain the larger picture to others.

If you would like a more concrete example, if Russia is a 'good thing' (so to speak) then it would make sense to explain to american public why Putin has been so intrested in getting rid of HIllary specifically. If there is a good case to be made, we should hear I think and it would make the overall case stronger

something to consider, speaking for myself as a 'lefty' I am very open minded to hear the case for Russia, in fact I ask for it

@tryit: If you try to explain in s positive way right now, people are nuts and paranoid. They will see that as a confirmation.

let me use the Lefts view of immigration as an example.

the information the Left gets about immigration (be is factual or not) has engaged them to have a different opinion of immigration other than one that is purely based on nothing other than strick view of the law.

In other words, they are able to see what in their mind is a larger picture that make it appear to them that violating those laws is actually for a larger good in the long run.

Same could be said for accusations of collusion. instead of getting defensive and cutting off conversations it would make more sense to explain to the ignornat the reasons why Russias actions actually benifit americans.

see?

in fact, the accussed can STILL hold a position of innocence while at the same time explain why such actions (if they really existed) would actually benifit rather than hurt americans

@tryit: they don’t though. Reality vs your imagination though. Trump has talked about Russian diplomacy as being a good thing before, multiple times. Do some more research and you’ll answer your own question.

@n64dd: One should never turn their back on Russia if you get my drift...........

@LJS9502_basic: i don’t think we’ve ever trusted

them in history.

A country with a long, rich history and interesting culture, but a depressing 20th century. Have some Russian friends, and all the people I've met from there have been awesome.

Russia is definitely a place I'd love to visit if I ever get the chance to, but not somewhere I'd want to live for a couple of reasons.

but he doesnt really go into any detail.

I am left asking for the case for russia and even the case against russia but nobody seems to want to make the case for either (in the public space) which I think is sad.

if a person thinks Russia is bad, they need to be able to explain why. if a person thinks russia is good, they need to explain why.

not 'being allies is better then not'

that is not a good enough answer and that is at best the only thing the Right has said. I want detials, I will just have to get them on my own.

you asked me to ask, so I am asking.

make the case for russia

make the case against russia.

that is what I am looking for, and frankly my research thus far as pointed more toward making a case FOR Russia, which is ironic given I am a Trump hater

@tryit: I told you to ask about russia during world war 2. You created questions out of thin air that nobody was talking about and get mad the questions aren’t answered.

You wonder why nobody will ever take you seriously.

@LJS9502_basic: you make it sound dramatic. Russia isn't that scary, maybe to little countries it is scary but USA no. If USA fought directly with Russia USA would win. So, Russia tries to be sneaky. That is why Russia is doing all these crazy things. Russia is considered always the boogyman. It is a tired trope.

sigh.......I'm saying not to trust their leadership. No one should trust them. Well.....fools might.

@watercrack445: If Russia and the USA ever fought we'd all lose. Both countries have nearly brought the world to ruin on a couple of occasions now.

fair enough point, good point in fact.

but please dont give up so easily and start flinging around comments like 'no wonder...'

your right...I did direct the question a different direction and I should not have

@tryit: Nah I’m done. You have a pattern in your trolling and you’re doing it. Enjoy arguing with yourself while everyone tries to decipher what you’re ranting about.

a sovereign nation should never trust any other sovereign nation, that is just smart world politics.

but people (like in this forum) should learn about what, why and who before espousing one position or another, because if they do the first question should always be 'ok...explain why' and the response should be coherent.

I dont have a solid position on Russia because I dont understand both views..hell I barely even know what the two view are.

you where right, i asked about Russia and I took it into a direction that was not in good faith to my question. I see that now.

to be fair my question was about Russia not specifically and only about WW2 in Russia that said my questions lead in a different direction that was not directly related to Russia.

but do as you feel

We trusted the Russkies enough to allow them access to US airspace shortly after standing down from the nuclear standby. I also recall good relations with Russia under Boris Yeltsin.

It's just a photo of a Russian cargo plane I took at a US airshow (Aerospace America 1990). But, back then, this was a very big deal.

They also brought over a number of their latest (at the time) Su-27 Flankers.

Just to add, people will likely have a more positive outlook on Russia once Putin leaves power.

I think here in the states people are just taught to not trust Putin but not explained why.

that is where I am suspicious of Americas narrative toward russia but I am not educated enough on this subject to speak one way or the other.

That said, I see an add for another movie about Putin on my page I might check that out next

oh and I think its free for prime users

Putin: The New Empire

watching it!...nowish

I think Putin has taken Russia down a different path than many of us would have liked. They've lost some of their rights and autonomy under him. Maybe some think having a more powerful governor is good, but I think it's cost them in terms of liberties. It's up to the russian people to decide what they want best - or at least it was. I dont know how their political system works now and if they have the ability to vote for a different government.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93United_States_relations#United_States_and_the_Russian_Empire

United States and the Russian Empire

Main article: Russian Empire–United States relations

Fort Ross, Russian settlement in California, 1841, by Ilya Gavrilovich Voznesensky.

Official contacts between the Russian Empire and the new United States of America began in 1776. Russia, while formally neutral during the American Revolution (1765–1783), favored the U.S.

Fully-fledged diplomatic ties were established in 1809.^[9] During the American Civil War (1861–1865), Russia supported the Union against the Confederacy which deterred the British from intervening. Russia sold its territory in North America, Alaska, to the United States in 1867. The Treaty of Portsmouth (1905), brokered by President Theodore Roosevelt ended the Russo-Japanese War.

From 1820 until 1917, about 3.3 million immigrants arrived in the U.S. from the Russian Empire. Most were Jews or Poles; only 100,000 were ethnic Russians

@Damedius: We were allies with them. We never trusted them.

The movie Putin: The New Empire is really good. Plus The Putin Interviews which I think is a total of 6 hours is also really good.

My summation of about 9 hours of watching documentaries about modern Russia is this.

Putin is an autocrat, but a skilled diplomat and for the most part Russians like him

Russia absolutely has a lot of ligament grievances against the US and I have not yet been able to find evidence of the Russia being the aggressor when it comes to Russian/US conflict

If invaded, Russia has often relied on the cold climate and the war dragging out for them to win I think.

yeah that definitely seemed to be the trend. At least for Hitler and Napoleon.

They also practiced "scorched earth" on their own territory so invaders couldn't use their own land and supplies, i.e. burning grain stores and entire villages before retreating. Russia also does not seem to have the same regard for human life as well. Did you ever see Enemy at the Gates, the movie about the sniper? Highly highly highly recommended, the opening scene alone is amazing, also goes into the whole Russian propaganda machine, war, etc.

Anyway, when they were fending off the Germans, they gave every third soldier a rifle and one clip of ammo, then the other two guys some ammo. When the guy with the rifle died, one of the other two would get the rifle.

They essentially sent unarmed men (and women! Russia field more frontline women combatants iirc than anyone) into combat against a highly-trained German army. Peasants, if we are being honest. That'd be like the modern equivalent of, idunno, sending a hair stylist or cashier or barista who never did anything physical in their youth into combat :P

Northern Norway experienced that scorched earth tactic as well. But done by the Germans to slow down the red army coming in. No I haven't seen the movie. Perhaps Soviet learned something from Finland and the winter war. :P

The tactic Soviet chose shows no regards for human lives. Pawns to be used. To be wasted.

going to take Moscow? They should have brough this

@tryit said:

going to take Moscow? They should have brough this

To be honest. Throwing vodka behind enemy lines would be more effective against them. :P

@horgen said:

@tryit said:

going to take Moscow? They should have brough this

To be honest. Throwing vodka behind enemy lines would be more effective against them. :P

side note: Putin is actively trying to change that.

Well yeah of course he is. Can't claim your country is strong if everyone is drunk.

@horgen: They depended on their vast numbers as well. They’ve been known to have top technology, but not enough of it for their numbers. Look at the battle of Stalingrad.

I watched Anastasia once, so I think i pretty much got it covered

Russia is a backwards, broken country forever scarred by the scourge of communism that it will never recover from. Even when communism fell, instead of actually introducing market economics to the population, they were just taken advantage of by oligarchs.

Great source of memes though.

Yeah, at least against other European nations they have always had the upper hand in numbers.

Also trying very much not be like Europe. Homosexuality is an European thing and we can't have any of that shit in Russia :P