Leaked Supreme Court opinion shows conservative majority set to overturn Roe v Wade

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tjandmia

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#751 tjandmia
Member since 2017 • 3827 Posts

@silentchief said:
@tjandmia said:
@silentchief said:
@tjandmia said:
@silentchief said:

Would you have to wait 5 to 7 months to figure out if it was rape or incest?

What does it matter? You may be too traumatized to accept what happened. You may be grappling with the morality of the situation and ultimately decide that you should not be forced to bear a rape baby.

The bigger question is why are you so interested in granting special rights to allow one human to use the body of another without their permission?

What human are you referring to specifically? Who's using who?

You already know, but the human fetus using the human host's body without her permission.

Do you see how insane you sound right now? It can't ask for permission it has no control. You are acting like a human Fetus is on par with a piece of trash. Again you want to live in a world of 0 accountability.

If they don't want to bear a rape baby they should be able to figure that out before 6 months.

You keep injecting your personal feelings into it. What does permission have to do with anything? It could never ask for permission. It's a nonsense and moot point. Why should the state ever grant special rights to one to use the body of another without permission, because of your feelings? We should suspend the most fundamental natural right we have because silentchief weally weally doesn't wike it and and it hurts his feewings?

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tjandmia

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#752 tjandmia
Member since 2017 • 3827 Posts
@LJS9502_basic said:
@tjandmia said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

It's one thing to be pro choice but don't deny humanity. As for being an incubator, contraception, while not perfect, mostly prevents that.

Humanity is an emotional argument. It has no place in the discussion. The question, at its simplest, is: Should one human ever be allowed to control the body of another human without that human's permission? If anyone says yes, then they are for the state bestowing special rights to one human over another.

Bullshit. It's no more an emotional argument than discussing any other right. Stop with the emotional argument about controlling another human, particularly when it as you just stated is about TWO humans. You can't have it both ways. Your argument is poor and can be flipped the other way.

It's the most emotional response one could give, to reference humanity, which means our care for and how we treat others. It's 100% emotional.

It is about two humans, and the question is: Why should we allow the state to grant special rights to one to use the body of another without their permission? That seems pretty inhumane.

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LJS9502_basic

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#754  Edited By LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180212 Posts
@tjandmia said:

It's the most emotional response one could give, to reference humanity, which means our care for and how we treat others. It's 100% emotional.

It is about two humans, and the question is: Why should we allow the state to grant special rights to one to use the body of another without their permission? That seems pretty inhumane.

Your responses are emotional as well. It's ridiculous to make the argument you're making by the way. There is a fine line between allowing early abortions and not allowing late term abortions. If you can't decide before viability, you've decided. It's inhumane to say it's okay to abort a 9 month pregnancy knowing full viability is insured.

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tjandmia

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#755  Edited By tjandmia
Member since 2017 • 3827 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:
@tjandmia said:

It's the most emotional response one could give, to reference humanity, which means our care for and how we treat others. It's 100% emotional.

It is about two humans, and the question is: Why should we allow the state to grant special rights to one to use the body of another without their permission? That seems pretty inhumane.

Your responses are emotional as well. It's ridiculous to make the argument you're making by the way. There is a fine line between allowing early abortions and not allowing late term abortions. If you can't decide before viability, you've decided. It's inhumane to say it's okay to abort a 9 month pregnancy knowing full viability is insured.

My arguments are 100% logical without emotion.

If you haven't decided you haven't decided.

If we can agree that no one should ever be allowed to use someone else's body without their permission, then there is no logical reason to not allow abortion at any time.

The only possible counter is emotional - the sanctity of life, it may become a person, it's viable, blah blah blah. All emotional nonsense.

There is zero logical reasons to grant special rights that belong to no on else in the world, to the unborn which allow them control the lives of others against their will.

You need to pay for your rapists actions by having that rape baby! No one should ever pay for the actions of another.

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Silentchief

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#756  Edited By Silentchief
Member since 2021 • 7919 Posts
@tjandmia said:
@silentchief said:
@tjandmia said:
@silentchief said:

What human are you referring to specifically? Who's using who?

You already know, but the human fetus using the human host's body without her permission.

Do you see how insane you sound right now? It can't ask for permission it has no control. You are acting like a human Fetus is on par with a piece of trash. Again you want to live in a world of 0 accountability.

If they don't want to bear a rape baby they should be able to figure that out before 6 months.

You keep injecting your personal feelings into it. What does permission have to do with anything? It could never ask for permission. It's a nonsense and moot point. Why should the state ever grant special rights to one to use the body of another without permission, because of your feelings? We should suspend the most fundamental natural right we have because silentchief weally weally doesn't wike it and and it hurts his feewings?

Lol you can call it whatever you want. In a civilized society we respect human life. Allowing one human to kill another because they are an inconvenience isn't civilized. The human knew the risk when they engaged in the act of sex. They are partly responsible for the human being there in the first place. Your argument isn't only emotional it's devoid of all logic. By your standard why should a mother have to breast feed a child? If the mother doesn't want to give permission to the infant to feed she has the right to let them starve to death. That's the logic of your argument.

A newborn is helpless fetus/infant etc is helpless so stop using the word permission: it's a dumb argument that makes no fucking sense in this context". We are talking about something that is at the complete mercy of the person who brought them into the world. Your argument makes no sense in a remotely civilized society.

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tjandmia

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#757 tjandmia
Member since 2017 • 3827 Posts

@silentchief said:
@tjandmia said:
@silentchief said:
@tjandmia said:
@silentchief said:

What human are you referring to specifically? Who's using who?

You already know, but the human fetus using the human host's body without her permission.

Do you see how insane you sound right now? It can't ask for permission it has no control. You are acting like a human Fetus is on par with a piece of trash. Again you want to live in a world of 0 accountability.

If they don't want to bear a rape baby they should be able to figure that out before 6 months.

You keep injecting your personal feelings into it. What does permission have to do with anything? It could never ask for permission. It's a nonsense and moot point. Why should the state ever grant special rights to one to use the body of another without permission, because of your feelings? We should suspend the most fundamental natural right we have because silentchief weally weally doesn't wike it and and it hurts his feewings?

Lol you can call it whatever you want. In a civilized society we respect human life. Allowing one human to kill another because they are an inconvenience isn't civilized. The human knew the risk when they engaged in the act of sex. They are partly responsible for the human being there in the first place. Your argument isn't only emotional it's devoid of all logic. By your standard why should a mother have to breast feed a child? If the mother doesn't want to give permission to the infant to feed she has the right to let them starve to death. That's the logic of your argument.

A newborn is helpless fetus/infant etc is helpless so stop using the word permission: it's a dumb argument that makes no fucking sense in this context". We are talking about something that is at the complete mercy of the person who brought them into the world. Your argument makes no sense in a remotely civilized society.

You were the one to bring up permission. I have always said it is irrelevant. The claim to respect human life is also an emotional response. There are plenty of lives the right allows to die without a thought. We could give many examples in their social and healthcare policy that shows that argument is very disingenuous. That's not pro life, it's pro birth.

Granting special rights to one while taking them away from another is what is uncivilized.

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Silentchief

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#758  Edited By Silentchief
Member since 2021 • 7919 Posts
@tjandmia said:
@silentchief said:
@tjandmia said:
@silentchief said:

Do you see how insane you sound right now? It can't ask for permission it has no control. You are acting like a human Fetus is on par with a piece of trash. Again you want to live in a world of 0 accountability.

If they don't want to bear a rape baby they should be able to figure that out before 6 months.

You keep injecting your personal feelings into it. What does permission have to do with anything? It could never ask for permission. It's a nonsense and moot point. Why should the state ever grant special rights to one to use the body of another without permission, because of your feelings? We should suspend the most fundamental natural right we have because silentchief weally weally doesn't wike it and and it hurts his feewings?

Lol you can call it whatever you want. In a civilized society we respect human life. Allowing one human to kill another because they are an inconvenience isn't civilized. The human knew the risk when they engaged in the act of sex. They are partly responsible for the human being there in the first place. Your argument isn't only emotional it's devoid of all logic. By your standard why should a mother have to breast feed a child? If the mother doesn't want to give permission to the infant to feed she has the right to let them starve to death. That's the logic of your argument.

A newborn is helpless fetus/infant etc is helpless so stop using the word permission: it's a dumb argument that makes no fucking sense in this context". We are talking about something that is at the complete mercy of the person who brought them into the world. Your argument makes no sense in a remotely civilized society.

You were the one to bring up permission. I have always said it is irrelevant. The claim to respect human life is also an emotional response. There are plenty of lives the right allows to die without a thought. We could give many examples in their social and healthcare policy that shows that argument is very disingenuous. That's not pro life, it's pro birth.

Granting special rights to one while taking them away from another is what is uncivilized.

No I didn't. You don't even understand your argument anymore. Read your post history. You kept saying a human shouldn't be able to use another's body without permission... a worthless argument considering the one human is completely helpless and only there because of decisions that were made by the person who's responsible for them.

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#759 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180212 Posts

@tjandmia said:

My arguments are 100% logical without emotion.

If you haven't decided you haven't decided.

If we can agree that no one should ever be allowed to use someone else's body without their permission, then there is no logical reason to not allow abortion at any time.

The only possible counter is emotional - the sanctity of life, it may become a person, it's viable, blah blah blah. All emotional nonsense.

There is zero logical reasons to grant special rights that belong to no on else in the world, to the unborn which allow them control the lives of others against their will.

You need to pay for your rapists actions by having that rape baby! No one should ever pay for the actions of another.

I get that you think you aren't expressing emotion but you are. You're also not using logic. There are consequences for actions. Engaging in sexual activity has a risk of pregnancy. That choice was not made at the direction of the human life growing in the woman. And before you start....only 1% of abortions are done due to rape and .05% due to incest. Now that we got that out of the way, the vast majority are due by willing sexual partners. So spare me the whining.

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#760 cainetao11
Member since 2006 • 38077 Posts

Its a case of some people cant mind their business.

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#761 tjandmia
Member since 2017 • 3827 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:
@tjandmia said:

My arguments are 100% logical without emotion.

If you haven't decided you haven't decided.

If we can agree that no one should ever be allowed to use someone else's body without their permission, then there is no logical reason to not allow abortion at any time.

The only possible counter is emotional - the sanctity of life, it may become a person, it's viable, blah blah blah. All emotional nonsense.

There is zero logical reasons to grant special rights that belong to no on else in the world, to the unborn which allow them control the lives of others against their will.

You need to pay for your rapists actions by having that rape baby! No one should ever pay for the actions of another.

I get that you think you aren't expressing emotion but you are. You're also not using logic. There are consequences for actions. Engaging in sexual activity has a risk of pregnancy. That choice was not made at the direction of the human life growing in the woman. And before you start....only 1% of abortions are done due to rape and .05% due to incest. Now that we got that out of the way, the vast majority are due by willing sexual partners. So spare me the whining.

My position is 100% logic based there is no emotion.

Consent to sex is not content to pregnancy. You're basically pointing your finger and saying "you have to be responsible for your bad deed!". That's an emotional response.

I still haven't been given a logical reason why we should grant special rights to one while taking rights from another. We do this in no other situation.

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LJS9502_basic

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#762 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180212 Posts

@tjandmia said:

My position is 100% logic based there is no emotion.

Consent to sex is not content to pregnancy. You're basically pointing your finger and saying "you have to be responsible for your bad deed!". That's an emotional response.

I still haven't been given a logical reason why we should grant special rights to one while taking rights from another. We do this in no other situation.

No you're using emotion and not logic. You're blaming an unborn child for the decisions of the parent.

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tjandmia

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#763 tjandmia
Member since 2017 • 3827 Posts

@LJS9502_basic: there is no such thing as an unborn child. That's a right wing propaganda term. There is also no blame at all because blame is irrelevant. This is a question of whether or not women should be allowed total control of their bodies or not. If you agree they should not be allowed full control of their bodies, you must for taking away their rights.

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LJS9502_basic

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#764 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180212 Posts

@tjandmia said:

@LJS9502_basic: there is no such thing as an unborn child. That's a right wing propaganda term. There is also no blame at all because blame is irrelevant. This is a question of whether or not women should be allowed total control of their bodies or not. If you agree they should not be allowed full control of their bodies, you must for taking away their rights.

No it's not right wing propaganda but you seem to be pushing propaganda that unborn are not human babies.

From a Cornell law dictionary.....As used in this section, the term “unborn child” means a child in utero, and the term “child in utero” or “child, who is in utero” means a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb.

You will find that if you cause the death of an unborn child you can be charged with murder.

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#765 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 14724 Posts

https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/15/politics/nebraska-abortion-ban-roe-v-wade-cnntv/index.html

Our pro-rape baby GOP members are starting to publicly admit their true stances. Why can't our own conservative forum members do the same?

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tjandmia

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#766 tjandmia
Member since 2017 • 3827 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:
@tjandmia said:

@LJS9502_basic: there is no such thing as an unborn child. That's a right wing propaganda term. There is also no blame at all because blame is irrelevant. This is a question of whether or not women should be allowed total control of their bodies or not. If you agree they should not be allowed full control of their bodies, you must for taking away their rights.

No it's not right wing propaganda but you seem to be pushing propaganda that unborn are not human babies.

From a Cornell law dictionary.....As used in this section, the term “unborn child” means a child in utero, and the term “child in utero” or “child, who is in utero” means a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb.

You will find that if you cause the death of an unborn child you can be charged with murder.

It's a propaganda term meant to illicit an emotional response. You're not a baby until you're born. There is no such thing as an unborn baby. That's a colloquial term, as that dictionary refers to any human in utero at any stage of development as an "unborn child". clearly a clump of cells is not a child. Awww. Just imagine that cute little clump of cells with it's teddy bear, baseball cap, and pull-up diapers! How sweet. The Unborn Victims of Violence Act better defines it.....fetus.

Yeah, you can be charged and should be under the UVVA. The fetus may not yet be a person, a baby, or a child, but you, as a third party, still don't get to kill it. That should be common sense.

This is all deflection from the real issue though, the granting of special rights, by the state, to one to use the body of another without their express permission. That's about as totalitarian a concept as I can imagine.

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#767 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180212 Posts

@tjandmia said:

It's a propaganda term meant to illicit an emotional response. You're not a baby until you're born. There is no such thing as an unborn baby. That's a colloquial term, as that dictionary refers to any human in utero at any stage of development as an "unborn child". clearly a clump of cells is not a child. Awww. Just imagine that cute little clump of cells with it's teddy bear, baseball cap, and pull-up diapers! How sweet. The Unborn Victims of Violence Act better defines it.....fetus.

Yeah, you can be charged and should be under the UVVA. The fetus may not yet be a person, a baby, or a child, but you, as a third party, still don't get to kill it. That should be common sense.

This is all deflection from the real issue though, the granting of special rights, by the state, to one to use the body of another without their express permission. That's about as totalitarian a concept as I can imagine.

In your opinion. And that's all you're doing here is expressing your opinion. Not facts. Also you might want to brush up on biology.

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tjandmia

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#768 tjandmia
Member since 2017 • 3827 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:
@tjandmia said:

It's a propaganda term meant to illicit an emotional response. You're not a baby until you're born. There is no such thing as an unborn baby. That's a colloquial term, as that dictionary refers to any human in utero at any stage of development as an "unborn child". clearly a clump of cells is not a child. Awww. Just imagine that cute little clump of cells with it's teddy bear, baseball cap, and pull-up diapers! How sweet. The Unborn Victims of Violence Act better defines it.....fetus.

Yeah, you can be charged and should be under the UVVA. The fetus may not yet be a person, a baby, or a child, but you, as a third party, still don't get to kill it. That should be common sense.

This is all deflection from the real issue though, the granting of special rights, by the state, to one to use the body of another without their express permission. That's about as totalitarian a concept as I can imagine.

In your opinion. And that's all you're doing here is expressing your opinion. Not facts. Also you might want to brush up on biology.

OK, show me a biology textbook or study refers to a zygote, embryo, or a fetus as an "unborn child". Sheesh. It sure does make you wonder why they even bother having 3+ names for the little bastard, instead of calling it an unborn child.

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#769 SheevPalpamemes
Member since 2020 • 2192 Posts

@tjandmia: You’re also a clump of cells.

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#770 br0kenrabbit
Member since 2004 • 18123 Posts

@sheevpalpamemes said:

@tjandmia: You’re also a clump of cells.

No. Our cells are quite orderly.

In early development the cells haven't even differentiated, yet.

Quite a difference.

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#771 SheevPalpamemes
Member since 2020 • 2192 Posts

@br0kenrabbit: 8 month fetus is a clump

Of cells?

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#772 OmegaBlueUp
Member since 2006 • 501 Posts

Finally got time to read through and comment on this topic. My opinions on some key posts that I'm surprised hasn't been brought up:

I don't necessarily see hypocrisy for being pro life and in favor for the death penalty. There is value in all lives, but taking a life should be taken very seriously and met with appropriate punishment, especially if there are signs that the criminal would kill again. I'm not sure if the death penalty is still an option for non murder cases.

Also, regarding a more recent point; I don't think one should use another's body without permission but I don't think that it should be punishable by death! I would be in favor of some alternative if there was way to end the pregnancy and keep the fetus alive, but until then, I feel that abortions should only be used if the life of the mother or the baby is at risk as determined by a doctor.

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#773 Eoten
Member since 2020 • 8671 Posts

@OmegaBlueUp said:

Finally got time to read through and comment on this topic. My opinions on some key posts that I'm surprised hasn't been brought up:

I don't necessarily see hypocrisy for being pro life and in favor for the death penalty. There is value in all lives, but taking a life should be taken very seriously and met with appropriate punishment, especially if there are signs that the criminal would kill again. I'm not sure if the death penalty is still an option for non murder cases.

Also, regarding a more recent point; I don't think one should use another's body without permission but I don't think that it should be punishable by death! I would be in favor of some alternative if there was way to end the pregnancy and keep the fetus alive, but until then, I feel that abortions should only be used if the life of the mother or the baby is at risk as determined by a doctor.

Well, there are dozens of ways to prevent pregnancy that get overlooked because of the convenience of free abortion. You know, taking those pills every day is hard work. Why bother when you can have an appointment with a vacuum cleaner. The side effect from this people want to pretend won't happen, is some people will have to engage a bit more in personal responsibility, and better decision making.

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#774 Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 25372 Posts

@sheevpalpamemes said:

@br0kenrabbit: 8 month fetus is a clump

Of cells?

Why are you guys always arguing for the most extreme and rare of cases, arguing as they are some kind of normal?

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#775 OmegaBlueUp
Member since 2006 • 501 Posts

@Maroxad: yeah... Extream cases are used by both sides (I recall someone bringing up an 11 year old rape victim), but regardless these extremes can help illustrate where we draw our lines.

For pro-choice it seems like there are a lot of differing opinions as to when abortions should be allowed - up to second trimester, when the brain is formed, up till birth, and in the most extreme cases would allow partial birth abortions.

Where should the line be drawn?

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#776 Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 25372 Posts

@OmegaBlueUp said:

@Maroxad: yeah... Extream cases are used by both sides (I recall someone bringing up an 11 year old rape victim), but regardless these extremes can help illustrate where we draw our lines.

For pro-choice it seems like there are a lot of differing opinions as to when abortions should be allowed - up to second trimester, when the brain is formed, up till birth, and in the most extreme cases would allow partial birth abortions.

Where should the line be drawn?

Fetal Viability.

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deactivated-628e6669daebe

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#777 deactivated-628e6669daebe
Member since 2020 • 3637 Posts

@OmegaBlueUp: That's the main issue I think, if society is divided it should be prioritized to find a balance.

Generally speaking I'm pro-choice, I'm even open to the idea of euthanasia for newborns that show severe issues undetected until birth. But at the same time I can understand why people might be pro-life and why my position might be shocking to them.

At the end of the day pragmatism is needed.

A person like me can't pretend that aborting an 8 month old is the same as aborting a sub 3 month old, even if I'm "fine" with both. And a pro-life person can't pretend that terminating something that's undistinguishable from a chimp (in fact I've already posted a picture of a chimp and no-one noticed it), and is extremely similar to most mammals on the same differentiation stage, is the same as murder. That's fundamentalism.

As far as I understand, until recently, the solution in place was quite balanced. It both protected the right of choice and allowed some autonomy from states, as not all states had the same rules regarding abortion, while keeping fundamentalists away.

A solution? Draft a balanced abortion law and set a referendum. Or draft several and see what people pick.

If you divide the issue in a simple dicotomy of no-freedom Vs pro-murder, in reality you'll be just taking into account an extreme minority of the population and forcing everybody else into taking a radicalise position that isn't really their own. Taking inspiration from what a wise ape once said, this is not a boolean, it's a variable. 😁

I don't believe this should be decided by whatever political party is in power, nor by unelected officials in courts. And let's not pretend that the final result won't be that one of the sides will have leeway to impose their radical moral values over everybody else. Because the reverse was not happening, nobody was forcing states to be completely liberal regarding abortion. Limits, varying from state to state, were already in place.

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#778 OmegaBlueUp
Member since 2006 • 501 Posts

@Maroxad: okay, so that is up to 23-24 weeks. I can see the reasoning for that, I still don't like abortions, but I can see the reasoning.

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SheevPalpamemes

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#779 SheevPalpamemes
Member since 2020 • 2192 Posts

@Maroxad said:
@sheevpalpamemes said:

@br0kenrabbit: 8 month fetus is a clump

Of cells?

Why are you guys always arguing for the most extreme and rare of cases, arguing as they are some kind of normal?

So where do you draw the line on where abortion can be performed?

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LJS9502_basic

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#780 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180212 Posts

@sheevpalpamemes said:
@Maroxad said:
@sheevpalpamemes said:

@br0kenrabbit: 8 month fetus is a clump

Of cells?

Why are you guys always arguing for the most extreme and rare of cases, arguing as they are some kind of normal?

So where do you draw the line on where abortion can be performed?

Where? I'd imagine a medical facility. Odd question. If you mean when, he said fetal viability.

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SheevPalpamemes

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#781 SheevPalpamemes
Member since 2020 • 2192 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:
@sheevpalpamemes said:
@Maroxad said:
@sheevpalpamemes said:

@br0kenrabbit: 8 month fetus is a clump

Of cells?

Why are you guys always arguing for the most extreme and rare of cases, arguing as they are some kind of normal?

So where do you draw the line on where abortion can be performed?

Where? I'd imagine a medical facility. Odd question. If you mean when, he said fetal viability.

Lol I meant how far along, and you know that.

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LJS9502_basic

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#782 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180212 Posts

@sheevpalpamemes said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

Where? I'd imagine a medical facility. Odd question. If you mean when, he said fetal viability.

Lol I meant how far along, and you know that.

I can only read your words dude. 😛

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SheevPalpamemes

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#783 SheevPalpamemes
Member since 2020 • 2192 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:
@sheevpalpamemes said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

Where? I'd imagine a medical facility. Odd question. If you mean when, he said fetal viability.

Lol I meant how far along, and you know that.

I can only read your words dude. 😛

You have a brain. You know how to use it.

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Maroxad

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#784 Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 25372 Posts

@sheevpalpamemes said:
@Maroxad said:
@sheevpalpamemes said:

@br0kenrabbit: 8 month fetus is a clump

Of cells?

Why are you guys always arguing for the most extreme and rare of cases, arguing as they are some kind of normal?

So where do you draw the line on where abortion can be performed?

Read the post above yours.

Fetal Viability, which is around 23-24 weeks.

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LJS9502_basic

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#785 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180212 Posts

@sheevpalpamemes said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

I can only read your words dude. 😛

You have a brain. You know how to use it.

Man I was having fun there but you're just going to be rude. I do NOT assume what people mean. I read THEIR words. Maybe use your brain when you post and we won't have this problem.

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OmegaBlueUp

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#786  Edited By OmegaBlueUp
Member since 2006 • 501 Posts

@ghost_of_phobos: very sneaky with that chimp pic 😜 I agree with a lot of what you are saying (not the euthanasia of children part) and extremes from both sides would cause more division.

While I do see myself as pro life I wouldn't want abortion outright outlawed overnight. In my ideal scenario the reasons for abortion would first be addressed with things like improved sex ed, better contraceptive availability, and more support programs/funding for single mothers as well as improving the foster care system. All to the point where abortion is not needed except for extreme cases.

I'm largely concerned about the idea of abortion being normalized and lessening the value of human life.

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horgen

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#787 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127738 Posts

@OmegaBlueUp said:

@ghost_of_phobos: very sneaky with that chimp pic 😜 I agree with a lot of what you are saying (not the euthanasia of children part) and extremes from both sides would cause more division.

While I do see myself as pro life I wouldn't want abortion outright outlawed overnight. In my ideal scenario the reasons for abortion would first be addressed with things like improved sex ed, better contraceptive availability, and more support programs/funding for single mothers as well as improving the foster care system. All to the point where abortion is not needed except for extreme cases.

I'm largely concerned about the idea of abortion being normalized and lessening the value of human life.

You're at odds with many conservatives there.

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#788 SheevPalpamemes
Member since 2020 • 2192 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:
@sheevpalpamemes said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

I can only read your words dude. 😛

You have a brain. You know how to use it.

Man I was having fun there but you're just going to be rude. I do NOT assume what people mean. I read THEIR words. Maybe use your brain when you post and we won't have this problem.

Maybe next time you won't make me think. How DARE you.

;)

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SheevPalpamemes

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#789  Edited By SheevPalpamemes
Member since 2020 • 2192 Posts
@Maroxad said:
@sheevpalpamemes said:
@Maroxad said:
@sheevpalpamemes said:

@br0kenrabbit: 8 month fetus is a clump

Of cells?

Why are you guys always arguing for the most extreme and rare of cases, arguing as they are some kind of normal?

So where do you draw the line on where abortion can be performed?

Read the post above yours.

Fetal Viability, which is around 23-24 weeks.

Define fetal viability.

Where did you get the number 23-24 weeks from?

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#790 OmegaBlueUp
Member since 2006 • 501 Posts

@sheevpalpamemes: You may be wanting Maroxad's response but I saw 23-24 weeks when I looked up the definition of fetal viability. Simply put it is the point in which the unborn baby is able to survive outside the womb.

I think this time frame could be decreased with advances in technology. So perhaps abortions could be replaced by some sort of transfer to an artificial womb in the future. I know this is extremely hopeful thinking.

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#791 Eoten
Member since 2020 • 8671 Posts

@OmegaBlueUp said:

@sheevpalpamemes: You may be wanting Maroxad's response but I saw 23-24 weeks when I looked up the definition of fetal viability. Simply put it is the point in which the unborn baby is able to survive outside the womb.

I think this time frame could be decreased with advances in technology. So perhaps abortions could be replaced by some sort of transfer to an artificial womb in the future. I know this is extremely hopeful thinking.

It has very little to do with the actual birth process and everything to do with taking responsibility. Even if you could transfer it, it doesn't answer the question of who is responsible for feeding, clothing, and taking care of it. That is what these people are trying to avoid most.

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#792 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180212 Posts

@eoten said:
@OmegaBlueUp said:

@sheevpalpamemes: You may be wanting Maroxad's response but I saw 23-24 weeks when I looked up the definition of fetal viability. Simply put it is the point in which the unborn baby is able to survive outside the womb.

I think this time frame could be decreased with advances in technology. So perhaps abortions could be replaced by some sort of transfer to an artificial womb in the future. I know this is extremely hopeful thinking.

It has very little to do with the actual birth process and everything to do with taking responsibility. Even if you could transfer it, it doesn't answer the question of who is responsible for feeding, clothing, and taking care of it. That is what these people are trying to avoid most.

Glad you brought up that point. In the absence of abortion what are the plans by those pushing for the end of abortion to take care of the children until they are 18.

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Maroxad

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#793  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 25372 Posts

@OmegaBlueUp said:

@sheevpalpamemes: You may be wanting Maroxad's response but I saw 23-24 weeks when I looked up the definition of fetal viability. Simply put it is the point in which the unborn baby is able to survive outside the womb.

I think this time frame could be decreased with advances in technology. So perhaps abortions could be replaced by some sort of transfer to an artificial womb in the future. I know this is extremely hopeful thinking.

That is the ideal/goal.

Make abortions unnecessary. Better access to contraceptives. Provide a unified, comprehensive sex ed, reduce poverty so people can afford kids and improve medical treatments so that complications are less likely both for the mother and child. :)

I want to reduce abortions, they are morally wrong. But keeping them legal is the lesser evil.

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#794 br0kenrabbit
Member since 2004 • 18123 Posts

@eoten said:

It has very little to do with the actual birth process and everything to do with taking responsibility. Even if you could transfer it, it doesn't answer the question of who is responsible for feeding, clothing, and taking care of it. That is what these people are trying to avoid most.

Why would a raped 12-year-old even want that kind of responsibility?

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deactivated-628e6669daebe

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#795 deactivated-628e6669daebe
Member since 2020 • 3637 Posts

@OmegaBlueUp: I do agree 100% with you, and that goes beyond abortion being legal or not. Abortion is never OK, from personal experience, it's not a decision that one takes lightly and I never knew anyone that made an abortion for "fun". So either way there needs to be mechanisms in place to make sure people have access to information, support and contraceptives.

If there's a way to remove the embryo/fetus from the mother and take it all the way to the baby state I'm fine with that too. Instead of destroying it why not raise it? I'm sure there's a lot of pro-life people who would gladly take the task. In fact if they wish to impose their will upon others it's their responsibility to do so.

Although up until 3 months I still defend that it should be totally up to the mother. That's the limit where I'm not willing to compromise, as I consider the right over one's body fundamental in a way that surpasses that of a potential human being.

Sometimes shit just happens, people are young ignorant and inexperienced, or something just goes wrong, it makes no sense forcing someone to be a mother if that person doesn't wish to be one.

And in case of rape or danger to the mother's life I think the limit should be even later.

Beyond that even if I'm fundamentally pro-choice I see there's a need for compromise.

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#796  Edited By br0kenrabbit
Member since 2004 • 18123 Posts
@ghost_of_phobos said:

Abortion is never OK,

So you'd want an 11-year-old girl to carry her Dads baby even though simply carrying the baby could permanently damage her body or possibly kill her?

That's just evil.

Although up until 3 months I still defend that it should be totally up to the mother.

Many young rape victims don't have the option to set a doctors appointment.

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deactivated-628e6669daebe

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#797 deactivated-628e6669daebe
Member since 2020 • 3637 Posts

@br0kenrabbit: Please just read my post again.

This is what I wrote; "Abortion is never OK, from personal experience, it's not a decision that one takes lightly"

I also wrote; "And in case of rape or danger to the mother's life I think the limit should be even later."

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#798 Zaryia
Member since 2016 • 21607 Posts

@sheevpalpamemes said:
@LJS9502_basic said:
@sheevpalpamemes said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

Where? I'd imagine a medical facility. Odd question. If you mean when, he said fetal viability.

Lol I meant how far along, and you know that.

I can only read your words dude. 😛

You have a brain. You know how to use it.

Hey bro did you ever find a study refuting the 6-8 I linked? Been a while. I take it you concede and accept the fact abortion restrictions/bans primarily result in negative health outcomes and reduced QOL and are objectively not a good idea?

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#799  Edited By SargentD
Member since 2020 • 10114 Posts

@zaryia: yeah bro but abortion leads to 100% dead baby

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Zaryia

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#800  Edited By Zaryia
Member since 2016 • 21607 Posts
@sargentd said:

@zaryia: yeah bro but abortion leads to 100% dead baby

But abortion bans/restrictions don't work. Most of those people end up "killing" that non-baby either way......