NPR: Trump announces a "Patriotic Education" commission

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#1  Edited By nintendoboy16
Member since 2007 • 42236 Posts

NPR

In austere, starkly divisive remarks, President Trump on Thursday said he would create a commission to promote "patriotic education" and announced the creation of a grant to develop a "pro-American curriculum." The move is largely political — a reaction to a growing push by some academics for schools to teach an American history that better acknowledges slavery and systemic racism.

In the speech, Trump decried what he said was a "twisted web of lies" being taught in U.S. classrooms about systemic racism in America, calling it "a form of child abuse." He reprised themes from a speech he gave in July at Mount Rushmore.

"Teaching this horrible doctrine to our children is a form of child abuse, the truest sense," Trump said. "For many years now, the radicals have mistaken Americans' silence for weakness. They're wrong. There is no more powerful force than a parent's love for their children. And patriotic moms and dads are going to demand that their children are no longer fed hateful lies about this country."

The federal government does not have jurisdiction over school curriculum.

Trump decried "a radical movement" working against telling a more flattering version of U.S. history as Democrats' efforts to smear the country for political gain.

The president's remarks reflect a growing outcry among Republicans against recent moves to tell a more evenhanded version of the nation's history, including its early foundational reliance on slave labor and the longtime disenfranchisement of and systemic racism against racial minorities.

In particular, Republicans have taken offense to TheNew York Times' Pulitzer Prize-winning "1619 Project," which detailed the country's history from when the first enslaved Africans were brought to America's shores.

"Critical race theory, the 1619 Project, and the crusade against American history is toxic propaganda, ideological poison that, if not removed, will dissolve the civic bonds that tie us together. It will destroy our country," the president said Thursday.

Trump said schools need to focus instead on "the legacy of 1776," when American Colonies declared independence from Great Britain. The newly formed committee, Trump said, will be called the "1776 Commission" — a further dig at The Times' project.

"American parents are not going to accept indoctrination in our schools, cancel culture at work or the repression of traditional faith, culture and values in the public square," Trump said.

Trump blamed "the left," aided by the media and unnamed corporations, for "a vicious and violent assault on law enforcement" and said violent protests in recent months "are the direct result of decades of left-wing indoctrination in our schools."

In a shot at his Democratic challenger, former Vice President Joe Biden, Trump said he would add a statue of Caesar Rodney to the National Garden of American Heroes park — a proposal he first made in his Mount Rushmore speech.

A statue of Rodney, a slave owner who signed the Declaration of Independence, was removed from Wilmington, Del., this summer amid protests against police brutality and systemic racism. Trump criticized Biden for not speaking out about it.

Statues paying homage to the Confederacy and other slave owners and racists have been among the most divisive issues in Trump's ongoing culture war against Democrats.

Following his remarks, the phrases "Trump Youth" and "Hitler Youth" trended on Twitter, with some likening the president's new education project to the indoctrination of young people in Nazi Germany.

As Chris Evans has said: "If you're still shocked, you're not paying attention."

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Eoten

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#2 Eoten
Member since 2020 • 8671 Posts

"Red for ed" marches pretty much proved Trumps point 100%. If teachers do not want to be seen as a bunch of commies manipulating children through public schools, they may want to dial that shit back. Public teachers have no businesses teaching political ideology.

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#3  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 25375 Posts

Guess History is too politically incorrect for a snowflake like Trump.

America's history is one of racism, slavery and genocide. But that also goes for my country. So let's let teachers TEACH us about our country's mistakes, so we don't repeat them in the near future.

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#5 mandzilla  Moderator
Member since 2017 • 4686 Posts

One last roll of the dice by a desperate man?

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#6  Edited By Zaryia
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@eoten said:

"Red for ed" marches pretty much proved Trumps point 100%. If teachers do not want to be seen as a bunch of commies manipulating children through public schools, they may want to dial that shit back. Public teachers have no businesses teaching political ideology.

How about they just give all the historical facts, and not put it in any subjective cherry picked propaganda.

I know the far right loves revisionist history though, many loons here still think the Southern Strategy was fake.

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#7 tenaka2
Member since 2004 • 17958 Posts

trump branded re-education camps on the way lol

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#8 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127738 Posts

I think this begs the question. Patriots what are you most ashamed of in US history? Or worst if you want.

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#9 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 36092 Posts

@eoten: "Public teachers have no businesses teaching political ideology."

What political ideology do you mean specifically?

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deactivated-5fab1400b2fcc

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#10 deactivated-5fab1400b2fcc
Member since 2020 • 2126 Posts

Sp Trump wants to hide the facts so he can deny a problem ever existed?

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#11 Drunk_PI
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@eoten said:

"Red for ed" marches pretty much proved Trumps point 100%. If teachers do not want to be seen as a bunch of commies manipulating children through public schools, they may want to dial that shit back. Public teachers have no businesses teaching political ideology.

lol ok there buddy.

@zaryia said:
@eoten said:

"Red for ed" marches pretty much proved Trumps point 100%. If teachers do not want to be seen as a bunch of commies manipulating children through public schools, they may want to dial that shit back. Public teachers have no businesses teaching political ideology.

How about they just give all the historical facts, and not put it in any subjective cherry picked propaganda.

I know the far right loves revisionist history though, many loons here still think the Southern Strategy was fake.

Stop being so unpatriotic. Guess I gotta report you to the patriotic inquistion!

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#12 SUD123456
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@tenaka2 said:

trump branded re-education camps on the way lol

Don't you mean Vocational Education and Training Centers :)

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#13 tenaka2
Member since 2004 • 17958 Posts

@SUD123456 said:
@tenaka2 said:

trump branded re-education camps on the way lol

Don't you mean Vocational Education and Training Centers :)

Yeah that with tRump youth daggers for all attendees

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#14 Sevenizz
Member since 2010 • 6462 Posts

Smart move. Thanks to Democrats, patriotism is at an all time low.

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#15 judaspete
Member since 2005 • 8135 Posts

I don't know how you spin this to say it doesn't sound like propaganda. I mean sure, I don't think we should be teaching kids that America sucks, but there are dark parts of our history that school curriculum should be honest about.

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#16  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 25375 Posts

@Sevenizz said:

Smart move. Thanks to Democrats, patriotism is at an all time low.

Ahh yes, the republican cycle

  1. Implement Bad Policies
  2. Watch Things Go Wrong
  3. Blame Democrats (who aren't even in power)
  4. Learn Nothing
  5. Go Back to Step 1
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#17 vl4d_l3nin
Member since 2013 • 3705 Posts

@Maroxad said:
@Sevenizz said:

Smart move. Thanks to Democrats, patriotism is at an all time low.

Ahh yes, the republican cycle

  1. Implement Bad Policies
  2. Watch Things Go Wrong
  3. Blame Democrats (who aren't even in power)
  4. Learn Nothing
  5. Go Back to Step 1

Were you paying attention during the Obama presidency? All he did was complain about Bush while all of his silly policies did nothing for growth, until he reached a compromise with the Republican house, then took all the credit for it.

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#18  Edited By Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 36092 Posts

@Maroxad said:
@Sevenizz said:

Smart move. Thanks to Democrats, patriotism is at an all time low.

Ahh yes, the republican cycle

  1. Implement Bad Policies
  2. Watch Things Go Wrong
  3. Blame Democrats (who aren't even in power)
  4. Learn Nothing
  5. Go Back to Step 1

Oh come on dude, this one clearly includes the step of wrapping yourself in the flag and crying freedom.

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#19 Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 25375 Posts

@vl4d_l3nin said:
@Maroxad said:
@Sevenizz said:

Smart move. Thanks to Democrats, patriotism is at an all time low.

Ahh yes, the republican cycle

  1. Implement Bad Policies
  2. Watch Things Go Wrong
  3. Blame Democrats (who aren't even in power)
  4. Learn Nothing
  5. Go Back to Step 1

Were you paying attention during the Obama presidency? All he did was complain about Bush while all of his silly policies did nothing for growth, until he reached a compromise with the Republican house, then took all the credit for it.

Obama was nowhere near as likely to blame Bush, as Trump blames Obama and the Democrats or the left. Also, Obama's stimulus package (which was arguably the biggest impact he had on the economy), was largely opposed to by republicans from the get go.

Nice try though, but your whataboutism fallacy failed.

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#20  Edited By deactivated-5fab1400b2fcc
Member since 2020 • 2126 Posts

@vl4d_l3nin: Are you joking? The Republican house tried to tank the economy to spite Obama. Republicans did nothing to help.

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#21 mattbbpl
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@vl4d_l3nin: "All he did was complain about Bush while all of his silly policies did nothing for growth, until he reached a compromise with the Republican house, then took all the credit for it."

Lay out this timeline for me. I want the details you're referring to.

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#22 mrbojangles25
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I don't think this is a good idea. We are replacing, what? Far-left radicalism with far-right nationalism (also radical)?

If we do this, we will foster a generation (or more) of people that think their country is perfect, all other countries suck, and we will never improve.

I love my country, the USA is a super awesome place full of diverse locales and people and beauty, and it has one of the most glorious and recent histories of any country....but it has it's ugliness, bad history, and shameful present, too. Kids need to be made aware of it all.

@eoten said:

"Red for ed" marches pretty much proved Trumps point 100%. If teachers do not want to be seen as a bunch of commies manipulating children through public schools, they may want to dial that shit back. Public teachers have no businesses teaching political ideology.

I think teaching basic politics and government and crossing the line into ideologies might be a bit too easy for many teachers.

I agree with your overall sentiment, maybe just not to the same degree, however.

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#23 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 14724 Posts

It's American exceptionalism on steroids. Our country is being turned into a cult. Rewrite the past so they can control the present and future.

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#24  Edited By Shmiity
Member since 2006 • 6625 Posts

Ass hole. This country was built on the backs of slaves and the American history taught in schools is heavily, heavily white-washed- Thats really not deniable. What I was taught in school, in the Hyper-Liberal Massachusetts, was America is the Greatest- and a detailed lesson on the Civil War isn't even a requirement in highschool history. And everything AFTER the Civil War? Forget it.

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#25  Edited By Fuhrer_D
Member since 2011 • 1136 Posts

This is why I’m against tearing down Confederate monuments and other things of that ilk.

They will have removed all trace from accessible history, and in three generation, the black community will be in the same predicament, with no context of why.

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#26 Maroxad
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@Fuhrer_D said:

This is why I’m against tearing down Confederate monuments and other things of that ilk.

They will have removed all trace from accessible history, and in three generation, the black community will be in the same predicament, with no context of why.

Those statues were erected primarily during the Civil Rights movement era, as a way to demoralize the Protestors.

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#27 Fuhrer_D
Member since 2011 • 1136 Posts

@Maroxad: Mmmhm, and that changes nothing I said. It’s still a reminder of upon what the country was built, and how mass amounts of people felt (and continue to feel) about the black community.

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#28 horgen  Moderator
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@Fuhrer_D said:

@Maroxad: Mmmhm, and that changes nothing I said. It’s still a reminder of upon what the country was built, and how mass amounts of people felt (and continue to feel) about the black community.

Museums?

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#29 Eoten
Member since 2020 • 8671 Posts

@horgen said:
@Fuhrer_D said:

@Maroxad: Mmmhm, and that changes nothing I said. It’s still a reminder of upon what the country was built, and how mass amounts of people felt (and continue to feel) about the black community.

Museums?

No.

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#30  Edited By xdude85
Member since 2006 • 6559 Posts

Damn, Trump is so desperate that he's proposing Hitler Youth for America.

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#31 firedrakes
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@Fuhrer_D said:

This is why I’m against tearing down Confederate monuments and other things of that ilk.

They will have removed all trace from accessible history, and in three generation, the black community will be in the same predicament, with no context of why.

so did you research like i did that most where funded and put up well after the war by the daughter of the confederate.

which think of Lost Cause of the Confederacy movement.

anyhow. yes this is a bad thing . period. just like packing a court system. in the long run its a bad thing.

so history fact.

which state in the usa had the most African American deaths at once?

here a hint its not 17 or 1800 hundreds.

this part of us history they don talk about.

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#32 Drunk_PI
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@Fuhrer_D said:

This is why I’m against tearing down Confederate monuments and other things of that ilk.

They will have removed all trace from accessible history, and in three generation, the black community will be in the same predicament, with no context of why.

Trumpette logic continues to astound me.

Generally, the purpose of monuments is to memorialize an individual and/or a group. The Confederacy have fought and died to maintain the system of slavery. After that failed attempt, Jim Crow and the KKK rose.

No one is erasing history other than those the trumpettes who want to rewrite history, being positive on slavery, ignoring Tulsa and Rosewood, Jim Crow, pretending the civil war was about "northern aggression" and so on.

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#33  Edited By mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 60845 Posts

@drunk_pi said:
@Fuhrer_D said:

This is why I’m against tearing down Confederate monuments and other things of that ilk.

They will have removed all trace from accessible history, and in three generation, the black community will be in the same predicament, with no context of why.

Trumpette logic continues to astound me.

Generally, the purpose of monuments is to memorialize an individual and/or a group. The Confederacy have fought and died to maintain the system of slavery. After that failed attempt, Jim Crow and the KKK rose.

No one is erasing history other than those the trumpettes who want to rewrite history, being positive on slavery, ignoring Tulsa and Rosewood, Jim Crow, pretending the civil war was about "northern aggression" and so on.

To add to this, specifically the monument bit:

the monuments were/are not history. They are propaganda. True, some were put up shortly after the war to commemorate battles, people, or places; but the majority of these statues were cheaply made and mass produced during the early- and mid-20th century to more or less put black people in their place.

You see a huge spike at around 1910 (long after the Civil War) during the Jim Crow era, then you see the second largest spike in the 1950's and 1960's during the Civil Rights movement.

If you want history, read a book, do some research, or go to a museum. Go to school. Talk to an old person. Statues are generally not history, they're just grand advertisements and reminders.

@Fuhrer_D said:

This is why I’m against tearing down Confederate monuments and other things of that ilk.

They will have removed all trace from accessible history, and in three generation, the black community will be in the same predicament, with no context of why.

They're not trying to erase or remove history, they are trying to prevent certain terrible parts of history from being glorified.

NAACP, BLM, and all manner of civil rights groups do not want us to forget about all the terrible things this country has done and continues to do. If we forget our history (or erase it, in this case) we are doomed to repeat it.

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#34 Eoten
Member since 2020 • 8671 Posts

@mrbojangles25 said:
@drunk_pi said:
@Fuhrer_D said:

This is why I’m against tearing down Confederate monuments and other things of that ilk.

They will have removed all trace from accessible history, and in three generation, the black community will be in the same predicament, with no context of why.

Trumpette logic continues to astound me.

Generally, the purpose of monuments is to memorialize an individual and/or a group. The Confederacy have fought and died to maintain the system of slavery. After that failed attempt, Jim Crow and the KKK rose.

No one is erasing history other than those the trumpettes who want to rewrite history, being positive on slavery, ignoring Tulsa and Rosewood, Jim Crow, pretending the civil war was about "northern aggression" and so on.

To add to this, specifically the monument bit:

the monuments were/are not history. They are propaganda. True, some were put up shortly after the war to commemorate battles, people, or places; but the majority of these statues were cheaply made and mass produced during the early- and mid-20th century to more or less put black people in their place.

You see a huge spike at around 1910 (long after the Civil War) during the Jim Crow era, then you see the second largest spike in the 1950's and 1960's during the Civil Rights movement.

If you want history, read a book, do some research, or go to a museum. Go to school. Talk to an old person. Statues are generally not history, they're just grand advertisements and reminders.

What about those over 100 years old, and those that have absolutely nothing to do with the CSA?

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#35  Edited By mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 60845 Posts

@eoten said:
@mrbojangles25 said:
@drunk_pi said:
@Fuhrer_D said:

This is why I’m against tearing down Confederate monuments and other things of that ilk.

They will have removed all trace from accessible history, and in three generation, the black community will be in the same predicament, with no context of why.

Trumpette logic continues to astound me.

Generally, the purpose of monuments is to memorialize an individual and/or a group. The Confederacy have fought and died to maintain the system of slavery. After that failed attempt, Jim Crow and the KKK rose.

No one is erasing history other than those the trumpettes who want to rewrite history, being positive on slavery, ignoring Tulsa and Rosewood, Jim Crow, pretending the civil war was about "northern aggression" and so on.

To add to this, specifically the monument bit:

the monuments were/are not history. They are propaganda. True, some were put up shortly after the war to commemorate battles, people, or places; but the majority of these statues were cheaply made and mass produced during the early- and mid-20th century to more or less put black people in their place.

You see a huge spike at around 1910 (long after the Civil War) during the Jim Crow era, then you see the second largest spike in the 1950's and 1960's during the Civil Rights movement.

If you want history, read a book, do some research, or go to a museum. Go to school. Talk to an old person. Statues are generally not history, they're just grand advertisements and reminders.

What about those over 100 years old, and those that have absolutely nothing to do with the CSA?

I have no opinion on those, but I lean towards the belief that they should stay up.

Either way, I think this needs to be done democratically, not via angry mob. More importantly, it's a local issue. I don't like the media fanning the flames; we have enough reasons to be pissed at eachother, thank you very much.

If the statue is, I don't know, of a guy who raped dozens of slave women and hunted down runaway slaves (just an example, I don't know if it exists) I don't see why it shouldn't come down. We're not talking the pyramids or the sphinx or any other world-renowned ancient thing....it's a freaking statue that is ~150 years old. Not a big deal.

If the statue is there to commemorate the bravery of soldiers that fought in a battle and doesn't glorify slavery, then I think it should stay up.

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#36  Edited By Eoten
Member since 2020 • 8671 Posts

@mrbojangles25 said:
@eoten said:
@mrbojangles25 said:
@drunk_pi said:

Trumpette logic continues to astound me.

Generally, the purpose of monuments is to memorialize an individual and/or a group. The Confederacy have fought and died to maintain the system of slavery. After that failed attempt, Jim Crow and the KKK rose.

No one is erasing history other than those the trumpettes who want to rewrite history, being positive on slavery, ignoring Tulsa and Rosewood, Jim Crow, pretending the civil war was about "northern aggression" and so on.

To add to this, specifically the monument bit:

the monuments were/are not history. They are propaganda. True, some were put up shortly after the war to commemorate battles, people, or places; but the majority of these statues were cheaply made and mass produced during the early- and mid-20th century to more or less put black people in their place.

You see a huge spike at around 1910 (long after the Civil War) during the Jim Crow era, then you see the second largest spike in the 1950's and 1960's during the Civil Rights movement.

If you want history, read a book, do some research, or go to a museum. Go to school. Talk to an old person. Statues are generally not history, they're just grand advertisements and reminders.

What about those over 100 years old, and those that have absolutely nothing to do with the CSA?

I have no opinion on those, but I lean towards the belief that they should stay up.

Either way, I think this needs to be done democratically, not via angry mob. More importantly, it's a local issue. I don't like the media fanning the flames; we have enough reasons to be pissed at eachother, thank you very much.

If the statue is, I don't know, of a guy who raped dozens of slave women and hunted down runaway slaves (just an example, I don't know if it exists) I don't see why it shouldn't come down. We're not talking the pyramids or the sphinx or any other world-renowned ancient thing....it's a freaking statue that is ~150 years old. Not a big deal.

If the statue is there to commemorate the bravery of soldiers that fought in a battle and doesn't glorify slavery, then I think it should stay up.

There are statues of Christopher Columbus, Ponce De Leon, Washington. The Appomattox statue was erected 131 years ago, in the 1880s. And if you think this is some kind of grass roots movement against slavery, and not some far left movement to divide and attack history, some of the statues vandalized had hammer and sickles spray painted on them, which to the vast majority of people around the world is at least as bad, usually seen as worse than the swaztika. Maybe it's not entirely about going after the confederacy, and they have ulterior motives to this, and confederate statues are just an excuse to get a foot in the door.

So where does it end? Once confederate statues are gone, they'll target another group of them next, and once those are gone, another. You have to draw a line somewhere, and I draw that line at any statue.

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#37  Edited By tenaka2
Member since 2004 • 17958 Posts

@eoten said:
I draw that line at any statue.

Are you favour of editing history with the intent of making more patriotic Americans?

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horgen

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#38 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127738 Posts

@mrbojangles25 said:

I don't think this is a good idea. We are replacing, what? Far-left radicalism with far-right nationalism (also radical)?

If we do this, we will foster a generation (or more) of people that think their country is perfect, all other countries suck, and we will never improve.

I love my country, the USA is a super awesome place full of diverse locales and people and beauty, and it has one of the most glorious and recent histories of any country....but it has it's ugliness, bad history, and shameful present, too. Kids need to be made aware of it all.

You think it is far left radicalism today? Are people living and going to school in Tulsa today learning what happened about 100 years ago there? Aren't most battles with the natives portrayed as battles if the early settlers won and as slaughters if the natives won? What happened to about 120 000 Japanese living in US in first few years after Pearl Harbor attack?

From a foreign perspective what my impression is that most bad acts by US are already heavily toned down or simply skipped.

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#39 deactivated-5fab1400b2fcc
Member since 2020 • 2126 Posts

It’s simple, Trump wants to brainwash a whole generation of kids. That way the Republicans can win more elections illegitimately. Can’t you people see how close we are getting to the 4th reich?

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Eoten

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#40  Edited By Eoten
Member since 2020 • 8671 Posts

@thegreatchomp said:

It’s simple, Trump wants to brainwash a whole generation of kids. That way the Republicans can win more elections illegitimately. Can’t you people see how close we are getting to the 4th reich?

"Red for ed" type of teachers have already done that. In fact, they'd like to lower the voting age to 16 to sway elections before they're old enough to see what BS they've been taught.

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Zaryia

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#41 Zaryia
Member since 2016 • 21607 Posts

@eoten said:

So where does it end? Once confederate statues are gone, they'll target another group of them next, and once those are gone, another. You have to draw a line somewhere, and I draw that line at any statue.

Naw, just draw the line at confederate racist statues.

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Watch_My_6

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#42  Edited By Watch_My_6
Member since 2007 • 297 Posts

I love this. I think we should try to promote America more and more.

So many on the left have taken to social media to denounce America and make it seem like it's some kind of hellhole. Those same people act like billions of people wouldn't give up every single thing they have to come and live here. They pretend a college degree from an American university isn't one of the most valuable things in the world.

Why anyone would ever want to make their country look bad is beyond me.

I know I wake up every morning, look at the flag outside of my house and say the Pledge of Allegiance like I used to do when I was in school. I then sing God Bless America on the way to work. I love this country - we are the best. Do I recognize the faults? Sure, but I would never let that change my view of all the great things we have achieved and will achieve.

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Zaryia

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#43 Zaryia
Member since 2016 • 21607 Posts

@Watch_My_6 said:

I love this. I think we should try to promote America more and more.

So many on the left have taken to social media to denounce America and make it seem like it's some kind of hellhole. Those same people act like billions of people wouldn't give up every single thing they have to come and live here. They pretend a college degree from an American university isn't one of the most valuable things in the world.

Why anyone would ever want to make their country look bad is beyond me.

I know I wake up every morning, look at the flag outside of my house and say the Pledge of Allegiance like I used to do when I was in school. I then sing God Bless America on the way to work. I love this country - we are the best. Do I recognize the faults? Sure, but I would never let that change my view of all the great things we have achieved and will achieve.

Why can't they just be objective and it not be some weird north korean type education?

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mrbojangles25

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#44 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 60845 Posts

@horgen said:
@mrbojangles25 said:

I don't think this is a good idea. We are replacing, what? Far-left radicalism with far-right nationalism (also radical)?

If we do this, we will foster a generation (or more) of people that think their country is perfect, all other countries suck, and we will never improve.

I love my country, the USA is a super awesome place full of diverse locales and people and beauty, and it has one of the most glorious and recent histories of any country....but it has it's ugliness, bad history, and shameful present, too. Kids need to be made aware of it all.

You think it is far left radicalism today? Are people living and going to school in Tulsa today learning what happened about 100 years ago there? Aren't most battles with the natives portrayed as battles if the early settlers won and as slaughters if the natives won? What happened to about 120 000 Japanese living in US in first few years after Pearl Harbor attack?

From a foreign perspective what my impression is that most bad acts by US are already heavily toned down or simply skipped.

I was taught about most about that stuff in my K-12 years, but I am also Californian so it might be different in other parts of the US. The only thing I didn't hear about is Tulsa, which I agree we need to hear about (though I was taught about other slaughters that white people committed against black communities).

But yeah, they are toned down. With that said, you need to find the balance between the truth---both good and bad--but not going so far that you raise a bunch of self-loathing anti-patriots.

IMO the ideal American young adult out of high school appreciates their country, knows that on paper their government is one of the best....

....but will also recognize that their good fortune in the present was mostly afforded by terrible crimes committed in the past, and that we can do a lot better in the present. They need to realize that while in theory our government is amazing, in execution it has been warped and bastardized.

As it is now, we seem to have either America-hating Americans or nationalists that think America is perfect; neither of those two are ideal.

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mrbojangles25

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#45 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 60845 Posts
@eoten said:
@mrbojangles25 said:
@eoten said:
@mrbojangles25 said:
@drunk_pi said:

...

...

...

I have no opinion on those, but I lean towards the belief that they should stay up.

Either way, I think this needs to be done democratically, not via angry mob. More importantly, it's a local issue. I don't like the media fanning the flames; we have enough reasons to be pissed at eachother, thank you very much.

If the statue is, I don't know, of a guy who raped dozens of slave women and hunted down runaway slaves (just an example, I don't know if it exists) I don't see why it shouldn't come down. We're not talking the pyramids or the sphinx or any other world-renowned ancient thing....it's a freaking statue that is ~150 years old. Not a big deal.

If the statue is there to commemorate the bravery of soldiers that fought in a battle and doesn't glorify slavery, then I think it should stay up.

There are statues of Christopher Columbus, Ponce De Leon, Washington. The Appomattox statue was erected 131 years ago, in the 1880s. And if you think this is some kind of grass roots movement against slavery, and not some far left movement to divide and attack history, some of the statues vandalized had hammer and sickles spray painted on them, which to the vast majority of people around the world is at least as bad, usually seen as worse than the swaztika. Maybe it's not entirely about going after the confederacy, and they have ulterior motives to this, and confederate statues are just an excuse to get a foot in the door.

So where does it end? Once confederate statues are gone, they'll target another group of them next, and once those are gone, another. You have to draw a line somewhere, and I draw that line at any statue.

I'm not very fond of slippery slope arguments, but I do get your concern.

With that said, I don't think it is as dire as you make it seem. History is in books, museums, and the stories people tell. Statues might be representative of very specific things in history, but for most part they're more reminders than anything. More about evoking emotions than informing of facts.

When they start burning books, destroying museums, and shutting down libraries and schools....then we have a problem.

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Fuhrer_D

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#46 Fuhrer_D
Member since 2011 • 1136 Posts

@drunk_pi said:
@Fuhrer_D said:

This is why I’m against tearing down Confederate monuments and other things of that ilk.

They will have removed all trace from accessible history, and in three generation, the black community will be in the same predicament, with no context of why.

Trumpette logic continues to astound me.

Generally, the purpose of monuments is to memorialize an individual and/or a group. The Confederacy have fought and died to maintain the system of slavery. After that failed attempt, Jim Crow and the KKK rose.

No one is erasing history other than those the trumpettes who want to rewrite history, being positive on slavery, ignoring Tulsa and Rosewood, Jim Crow, pretending the civil war was about "northern aggression" and so on.

Trumpette logic? What is that?

I'm speaking from the position of a black man that educated at an HBCU; and has experience re-visioned history at an early age.

You speak of Tulsa and Rosewood as if those were taught in 99% of the schools in the USA. Those were virtually myths at one point. I grew up know of them, and how they were "erased."

I can't ignore the history of it, because my ancestors lived through it; but I also know it looks different than what is written down in the books you've read.

If you actually read my post, you'd realize I include these action by Trump as part of the problem. Your fervor to wholly disagree cause you to miss were there was common ground.

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#47 Drunk_PI
Member since 2014 • 3358 Posts

@Fuhrer_D said:
@drunk_pi said:
@Fuhrer_D said:

This is why I’m against tearing down Confederate monuments and other things of that ilk.

They will have removed all trace from accessible history, and in three generation, the black community will be in the same predicament, with no context of why.

Trumpette logic continues to astound me.

Generally, the purpose of monuments is to memorialize an individual and/or a group. The Confederacy have fought and died to maintain the system of slavery. After that failed attempt, Jim Crow and the KKK rose.

No one is erasing history other than those the trumpettes who want to rewrite history, being positive on slavery, ignoring Tulsa and Rosewood, Jim Crow, pretending the civil war was about "northern aggression" and so on.

Trumpette logic? What is that?

I'm speaking from the position of a black man that educated at an HBCU; and has experience re-visioned history at an early age.

You speak of Tulsa and Rosewood as if those were taught in 99% of the schools in the USA. Those were virtually myths at one point. I grew up know of them, and how they were "erased."

I can't ignore the history of it, because my ancestors lived through it; but I also know it looks different than what is written down in the books you've read.

If you actually read my post, you'd realize I include these action by Trump as part of the problem. Your fervor to wholly disagree cause you to miss were there was common ground.

That's the point. They're not. But the history that white-washes and downplays the atrocities of U.S. history is often taught. Getting rid of monuments and memorials won't do anything to "erase history." Those in power erase and downplay history to their benefit.

In other words, I don't need a monument of Nazis like Rommel or Goering or Hitler or GUderian to remember their atrocities when I can read the eyewitness accounts, historic texts, and visit the camps to realize the cruelty of their nature.

Likewise, we don't need memorials and monuments built during the Civil Rights Movement to oppose equality and whitewash the "southern cause" when you can read what the Confederacy's goal was, what their leaders were fighting for, and so on. Even then, I don't need a monument or memorial to remember slavery when it's fully ingrained in our history and even today when the 13th Amendment allows a form of slavery to persist.