Possible voter fraud in North Carolina's 9th district. GOP have it right?

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#1 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 36092 Posts

In the weeks following the midterm elections, President Donald Trump and several Republican members of Congress became obsessed with the possibility of election fraud. As a recount in Florida unfolded, Trump accused Democrats of manipulating the vote count. On Twitter, Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) spent days accusing local election officials of fraud and innocent voters of casting ballots illegally. Republican Rep. Matt Gaetz of Florida, a Trump ally, showed up at the Broward County supervisor of elections’ office during the vote-counting and, with a megaphone in hand, claimed that fraud was afoot. When the Florida election wrapped up with no actual evidence of fraud, Republicans turned their attention to California. As county election officials concluded the weekslong vote-counting process, during which multiple Democrats pulled ahead of their Republican opponents, House Speaker Paul Ryan questioned the integrity of California’s voting system.

But there is one place where there is a strong possibility of fraud in the 2018 midterms, and so far, none of these Republicans have mentioned it. In North Carolina’s 9th Congressional District, the state election board has refused to certify the results of the election as it investigates the possibility that fraud helped Republican Mark Harris defeat Democrat Dan McCready by 905 votes out of more than 280,000 cast.

Thus far, there is evidence of tampering with absentee ballots in Bladen County, a large rural county in the southeast corner of the state. One woman recounted in a sworn affidavit that a woman had collected her absentee ballot before it was sealed in its envelope; another voter also recalled in an affidavit a woman picking up her ballot. In North Carolina, it is illegal for anyone but the voter to turn in his or her absentee ballot. Some affidavits fingered a local Republican operator, Leslie McCrae Dowless Jr., who worked on behalf of the Harris campaign, according to the Charlotte Observer. The Washington Postreported Monday that according to one sworn affidavit from a former friend of Dowless, “he oversaw a crew of workers who collected absentee ballots from voters and updated the Harris campaign on the numbers.”

Thus far, these allegations are unproven. But the overall returns in Bladen County indicate something out of the ordinary may have occurred. Michael Bitzer, a politics professor at nearby Catawba College, analyzed the absentee ballot returns and found that Harris had won an improbable percentage of the mail-in vote in Bladen County. Registered Republicans submitted just 19 percent of absentee ballots that were accepted by the county, compared with 42 percent for Democrats and 39 percent for unaffiliated voters. Yet Harris won 61 percent of mail-in ballots in the county. In every other county in the district, McCready won the absentee ballot vote by a wide margin. For those results to be accurate, Harris would have had to win every Republican and independent mail-in vote along with many Democratic votes.

There’s also a potentially suspicious number of absentee ballots listed as unreturned, particularly from voters of color. The News & Observer did an analysis of the absentee ballot results in Bladen County and neighboring Robeson County and found that a significant number of voters had failed to return their absentee ballots. In Robeson County, a disproportionate number of minority voters had not returned their ballots. “But in Robeson County, 75 percent of the mail-in ballots requested by African Americans and 69 percent of the mail-in ballots requested by American Indians were listed as unreturned,” the paper found. Investigators with the state elections board have identified hundreds of potential witnesses, including many whose absentee ballots were never turned in, the Post reported.

The conservative activists who have most vocally pushed a narrative of rampant voter fraud in recent years are ignoring the unfolding drama in North Carolina. J. Christian Adams, a former Justice Department attorney who is being sued after issuing a report filled with inaccurate allegations of felony voter fraud against residents of Virginia, has not mentioned it on social media, despite being a frequent blogger and tweeter. Nor have Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach and conservative voter-ID evangelist Hans von Spakovsky, who along with Adams were members of Trump’s Election Integrity Commission last year. Before Trump dissolved the commission in January amid a barrage of lawsuits, the group’s conservative members planned to issue a report that would document voter fraud, even before they appeared to have found any evidence.

Harris and the chair of the North Carolina Republican Party, Dallas Woodhouse, have both called for the State Board of Elections and Ethics to certify the election. They both say they support an investigation into potential fraud, but they deny that there is evidence that it affected the outcome. In the meantime, Harris participated in an orientation for new GOP members of Congress in Washington and entered a lottery to determine the order for selecting a Capitol Hill office.

But number crunchers believe that the number of votes in doubt is greater than Harris’ slim margin.

Irregularities in the November vote have sparked an investigation into the Republican primary for the seat as well. As The New Yorker reports, Harris defeated the GOP incumbent, Robert Pittenger, in May by 828 votes—including 96 percent of the mail-in votes in Bladen County.

North Carolina Republicans have long claimed a fear of voter fraud. In 2013, Republicans there passed one of the nation’s strictest voter ID laws, ostensibly to combat voter fraud, despite a lack of evidence of in-person fraud. (Evidence suggests the incidence of in-person voter fraud is about 31 per 1 billion ballots cast.) “The mere thought that someone can simply walk into a voting booth and cast a vote on behalf of someone else fosters the perception that our electoral system lacks integrity,” the state House speaker who shepherded the bill through the Legislature, Thom Tillis, said in 2016 in defense of the law. The law was struck down that year for targeting voting African Americans with what the judge called “almost surgical precision.”

Tillis, who was elected to the US Senate in 2014, has not commented on the situation unfolding in his home state. His communications director did not respond to a request for comment. Ryan’s spokeswoman in Washington, AshLee Strong, referred Mother Jones to the spokesman for one of Ryan’s fundraising vehicles, a political committee called Team Ryan, who did not respond.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/12/republicans-finally-have-a-voter-fraud-scandal-and-none-of-them-want-to-talk-about-it/

Looks like the GOP may have been right, but wrong about the party doing it. Like N64DD mentioned in my topic earlier today, the GOP is trying to win at all costs regardless of democracy and the voters.

I hope this gets worked out rather than swept under the rug.

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#2 N64DD
Member since 2015 • 13167 Posts

@Serraph105 said:

In the weeks following the midterm elections, President Donald Trump and several Republican members of Congress became obsessed with the possibility of election fraud. As a recount in Florida unfolded, Trump accused Democrats of manipulating the vote count. On Twitter, Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) spent days accusing local election officials of fraud and innocent voters of casting ballots illegally. Republican Rep. Matt Gaetz of Florida, a Trump ally, showed up at the Broward County supervisor of elections’ office during the vote-counting and, with a megaphone in hand, claimed that fraud was afoot. When the Florida election wrapped up with no actual evidence of fraud, Republicans turned their attention to California. As county election officials concluded the weekslong vote-counting process, during which multiple Democrats pulled ahead of their Republican opponents, House Speaker Paul Ryan questioned the integrity of California’s voting system.

But there is one place where there is a strong possibility of fraud in the 2018 midterms, and so far, none of these Republicans have mentioned it. In North Carolina’s 9th Congressional District, the state election board has refused to certify the results of the election as it investigates the possibility that fraud helped Republican Mark Harris defeat Democrat Dan McCready by 905 votes out of more than 280,000 cast.

Thus far, there is evidence of tampering with absentee ballots in Bladen County, a large rural county in the southeast corner of the state. One woman recounted in a sworn affidavit that a woman had collected her absentee ballot before it was sealed in its envelope; another voter also recalled in an affidavit a woman picking up her ballot. In North Carolina, it is illegal for anyone but the voter to turn in his or her absentee ballot. Some affidavits fingered a local Republican operator, Leslie McCrae Dowless Jr., who worked on behalf of the Harris campaign, according to the Charlotte Observer. The Washington Postreported Monday that according to one sworn affidavit from a former friend of Dowless, “he oversaw a crew of workers who collected absentee ballots from voters and updated the Harris campaign on the numbers.”

Thus far, these allegations are unproven. But the overall returns in Bladen County indicate something out of the ordinary may have occurred. Michael Bitzer, a politics professor at nearby Catawba College, analyzed the absentee ballot returns and found that Harris had won an improbable percentage of the mail-in vote in Bladen County. Registered Republicans submitted just 19 percent of absentee ballots that were accepted by the county, compared with 42 percent for Democrats and 39 percent for unaffiliated voters. Yet Harris won 61 percent of mail-in ballots in the county. In every other county in the district, McCready won the absentee ballot vote by a wide margin. For those results to be accurate, Harris would have had to win every Republican and independent mail-in vote along with many Democratic votes.

There’s also a potentially suspicious number of absentee ballots listed as unreturned, particularly from voters of color. The News & Observer did an analysis of the absentee ballot results in Bladen County and neighboring Robeson County and found that a significant number of voters had failed to return their absentee ballots. In Robeson County, a disproportionate number of minority voters had not returned their ballots. “But in Robeson County, 75 percent of the mail-in ballots requested by African Americans and 69 percent of the mail-in ballots requested by American Indians were listed as unreturned,” the paper found. Investigators with the state elections board have identified hundreds of potential witnesses, including many whose absentee ballots were never turned in, the Post reported.

The conservative activists who have most vocally pushed a narrative of rampant voter fraud in recent years are ignoring the unfolding drama in North Carolina. J. Christian Adams, a former Justice Department attorney who is being sued after issuing a report filled with inaccurate allegations of felony voter fraud against residents of Virginia, has not mentioned it on social media, despite being a frequent blogger and tweeter. Nor have Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach and conservative voter-ID evangelist Hans von Spakovsky, who along with Adams were members of Trump’s Election Integrity Commission last year. Before Trump dissolved the commission in January amid a barrage of lawsuits, the group’s conservative members planned to issue a report that would document voter fraud, even before they appeared to have found any evidence.

Harris and the chair of the North Carolina Republican Party, Dallas Woodhouse, have both called for the State Board of Elections and Ethics to certify the election. They both say they support an investigation into potential fraud, but they deny that there is evidence that it affected the outcome. In the meantime, Harris participated in an orientation for new GOP members of Congress in Washington and entered a lottery to determine the order for selecting a Capitol Hill office.

But number crunchers believe that the number of votes in doubt is greater than Harris’ slim margin.

Irregularities in the November vote have sparked an investigation into the Republican primary for the seat as well. As The New Yorker reports, Harris defeated the GOP incumbent, Robert Pittenger, in May by 828 votes—including 96 percent of the mail-in votes in Bladen County.

North Carolina Republicans have long claimed a fear of voter fraud. In 2013, Republicans there passed one of the nation’s strictest voter ID laws, ostensibly to combat voter fraud, despite a lack of evidence of in-person fraud. (Evidence suggests the incidence of in-person voter fraud is about 31 per 1 billion ballots cast.) “The mere thought that someone can simply walk into a voting booth and cast a vote on behalf of someone else fosters the perception that our electoral system lacks integrity,” the state House speaker who shepherded the bill through the Legislature, Thom Tillis, said in 2016 in defense of the law. The law was struck down that year for targeting voting African Americans with what the judge called “almost surgical precision.”

Tillis, who was elected to the US Senate in 2014, has not commented on the situation unfolding in his home state. His communications director did not respond to a request for comment. Ryan’s spokeswoman in Washington, AshLee Strong, referred Mother Jones to the spokesman for one of Ryan’s fundraising vehicles, a political committee called Team Ryan, who did not respond.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/12/republicans-finally-have-a-voter-fraud-scandal-and-none-of-them-want-to-talk-about-it/

Looks like the GOP may have been right, but wrong about the party doing it. Like N64DD mentioned in my topic earlier today, the GOP is trying to win at all costs regardless of democracy and the voters.

I hope this gets worked out rather than swept under the rug.

LOL! I was mocking you, but i'll go with it.

Republicans will do anything to win, they're scum.

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#3 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 36092 Posts

@n64dd: I'm aware, but that shouldn't mean it should change how you feel about it when you see it happening.

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#4 horgen  Moderator
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@n64dd said:

LOL! I was mocking you, but i'll go with it.

Republicans will do anything to win, they're scum.

You were halfway serious with it. I don't think it is the first time you said it, and it has been less and less of a joke for each time :P

I heard about this earlier today. I wonder what the outcome will be.

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#5  Edited By N64DD
Member since 2015 • 13167 Posts

@horgen said:
@n64dd said:

LOL! I was mocking you, but i'll go with it.

Republicans will do anything to win, they're scum.

You were halfway serious with it. I don't think it is the first time you said it, and it has been less and less of a joke for each time :P

I heard about this earlier today. I wonder what the outcome will be.

If I had wheels I'd be a wagon.

For the record, I don't see as much desperation on the right as the left.

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#6  Edited By TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts

@n64dd said:
@horgen said:
@n64dd said:

LOL! I was mocking you, but i'll go with it.

Republicans will do anything to win, they're scum.

You were halfway serious with it. I don't think it is the first time you said it, and it has been less and less of a joke for each time :P

I heard about this earlier today. I wonder what the outcome will be.

If I had wheels I'd be a wagon.

For the record, I don't see as much desperation on the right as the left.

well that is biased depending on what appears to one to be 'desperation'

for example, is saying 'please investigate a supreme court justice nominee over allegations instead of just ignoring them' and showing up to a room enthusiastic to make that point. Is that 'desperation' or 'enthusiasm'?

another example, is tweeting how evil the FBI is and how all media other than one channel is liying and you are powerless to change any of it even though you are president, an example of playing the victim or is it something else completely?

I think what you say depends greatly on nothing more then how a person views something

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#7 N64DD
Member since 2015 • 13167 Posts

@tryit said:
@n64dd said:
@horgen said:
@n64dd said:

LOL! I was mocking you, but i'll go with it.

Republicans will do anything to win, they're scum.

You were halfway serious with it. I don't think it is the first time you said it, and it has been less and less of a joke for each time :P

I heard about this earlier today. I wonder what the outcome will be.

If I had wheels I'd be a wagon.

For the record, I don't see as much desperation on the right as the left.

well that is biased depending on what appears to one to be 'desperation'

for example, is saying 'please investigate a supreme court justice nominee over allegations instead of just ignoring them' and showing up to a room enthusiastic to make that point. Is that 'desperation' or 'enthusiasm'?

another example, is tweeting how evil the FBI is and how all media other than one channel is liying and you are powerless to change any of it even though you are president, an example of playing the victim or is it something else completely?

I think what you say depends greatly on nothing more then how a person views something

I seriously have no idea what you're trying to say here.

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#8 mattbbpl
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@n64dd: Great, charge Democrats with being desperate while Republicans literally undermine democracy. Your party is fraudulent, and you're complicit. Both are morally bankrupt.

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#9 TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts

@n64dd said:
@tryit said:
@n64dd said:
@horgen said:
@n64dd said:

LOL! I was mocking you, but i'll go with it.

Republicans will do anything to win, they're scum.

You were halfway serious with it. I don't think it is the first time you said it, and it has been less and less of a joke for each time :P

I heard about this earlier today. I wonder what the outcome will be.

If I had wheels I'd be a wagon.

For the record, I don't see as much desperation on the right as the left.

well that is biased depending on what appears to one to be 'desperation'

for example, is saying 'please investigate a supreme court justice nominee over allegations instead of just ignoring them' and showing up to a room enthusiastic to make that point. Is that 'desperation' or 'enthusiasm'?

another example, is tweeting how evil the FBI is and how all media other than one channel is liying and you are powerless to change any of it even though you are president, an example of playing the victim or is it something else completely?

I think what you say depends greatly on nothing more then how a person views something

I seriously have no idea what you're trying to say here.

well maybe others can read what I said and explain it better, I can not.

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#10 N64DD
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@mattbbpl said:

@n64dd: Great, charge Democrats with being desperate while Republicans literally undermine democracy. Your party is fraudulent, and you're complicit. Both are morally bankrupt.

Both have been crooked for a long time. Democrats are just visibily worse.

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#11 Damedius
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@n64dd said:
@mattbbpl said:

@n64dd: Great, charge Democrats with being desperate while Republicans literally undermine democracy. Your party is fraudulent, and you're complicit. Both are morally bankrupt.

Both have been crooked for a long time. Democrats are just visibily worse.

Seeing the corruption inside the Democratic party would cause them to experience cognitive dissonance so they ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist.

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#12  Edited By TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts

@Damedius said:
@n64dd said:
@mattbbpl said:

@n64dd: Great, charge Democrats with being desperate while Republicans literally undermine democracy. Your party is fraudulent, and you're complicit. Both are morally bankrupt.

Both have been crooked for a long time. Democrats are just visibily worse.

Seeing the corruption inside the Democratic party would cause them to experience cognitive dissonance so they ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist.

give some examples that measure up to the corruption currently happening in the GOP as of this week.

might want to wait until friday though because it hasnt started yet but its about to. oh and maybe for grins though in the NRA/Russia for the GOP corruption for fun

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Serraph105

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#13 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 36092 Posts

@tryit said:
@Damedius said:
@n64dd said:
@mattbbpl said:

@n64dd: Great, charge Democrats with being desperate while Republicans literally undermine democracy. Your party is fraudulent, and you're complicit. Both are morally bankrupt.

Both have been crooked for a long time. Democrats are just visibily worse.

Seeing the corruption inside the Democratic party would cause them to experience cognitive dissonance so they ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist.

give some examples that measure up to the corruption currently happening in the GOP as of this week.

might want to wait until friday though because it hasnt started yet but its about to. oh and maybe for grins though in the NRA/Russia for the GOP corruption for fun

I never get your cryptic, "Just wait a few days from now cause I know something others don't" posts. Specify what you're talking about.

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#14 TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts

@Serraph105 said:
@tryit said:
@Damedius said:
@n64dd said:
@mattbbpl said:

@n64dd: Great, charge Democrats with being desperate while Republicans literally undermine democracy. Your party is fraudulent, and you're complicit. Both are morally bankrupt.

Both have been crooked for a long time. Democrats are just visibily worse.

Seeing the corruption inside the Democratic party would cause them to experience cognitive dissonance so they ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist.

give some examples that measure up to the corruption currently happening in the GOP as of this week.

might want to wait until friday though because it hasnt started yet but its about to. oh and maybe for grins though in the NRA/Russia for the GOP corruption for fun

I never get your cryptic, "Just wait a few days from now cause I know something others don't" posts. Specify what you're talking about.

well wait and you shall see :) its part of the fun.

i know I must have control issues and whatever but still, the info tease about what is coming is fun

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#15  Edited By Lach0121
Member since 2007 • 11815 Posts

@n64dd said:
@mattbbpl said:

@n64dd: Great, charge Democrats with being desperate while Republicans literally undermine democracy. Your party is fraudulent, and you're complicit. Both are morally bankrupt.

Both have been crooked for a long time. Democrats are just visibily worse.

You have that backwards. The republiCONs have been far more crooked, and for far longer. That has been abundantly clear for quite some time...

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#16 TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts

@Lach0121 said:
@n64dd said:
@mattbbpl said:

@n64dd: Great, charge Democrats with being desperate while Republicans literally undermine democracy. Your party is fraudulent, and you're complicit. Both are morally bankrupt.

Both have been crooked for a long time. Democrats are just visibily worse.

You have that backwards. The republiCONs have been far more crooked, and for far longer. That has been abundantly clear for quite some time...

yup

Nixon + Bush W war based on lies + Trump

that 'should' be clear to everyone that the GOP has a serious problem

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#17 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23356 Posts

@n64dd: Show me how so.

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#18 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 14724 Posts

@n64dd said:
@mattbbpl said:

@n64dd: Great, charge Democrats with being desperate while Republicans literally undermine democracy. Your party is fraudulent, and you're complicit. Both are morally bankrupt.

Both have been crooked for a long time. Democrats are just visibily worse.

Resorting to some false equivalency usually means you're ceding ground on the issue.

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#19 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23356 Posts

Dowless personally turned in 592 of the 1,341 total absentee ballots requested in Bladen County. Only 684 absentee ballots were ultimately cast in the county.

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#20 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127736 Posts

@n64dd said:

I seriously have no idea what you're trying to say here.

What you view as desperation is viewed as enthusiasm from the other side. And vice versa

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#21 N64DD
Member since 2015 • 13167 Posts

@horgen said:
@n64dd said:

I seriously have no idea what you're trying to say here.

What you view as desperation is viewed as enthusiasm from the other side. And vice versa

That's a stretch.

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#22  Edited By LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180205 Posts

@n64dd said:
@mattbbpl said:

@n64dd: Great, charge Democrats with being desperate while Republicans literally undermine democracy. Your party is fraudulent, and you're complicit. Both are morally bankrupt.

Both have been crooked for a long time. Democrats are just visibily worse.

Evidence points to the Republicans being worse. But I'm sure in your little head it's just the bad people out to attack your guys. Facts be damned.

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#23 Damedius
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@LJS9502_basic said:

Evidence points to the Republicans being worse. But I'm sure in your little head it's just the bad people out to attack your guys. Facts be damned.

I'm sure you have made it your life long missions to study the evidence.

We await your study of the last 242 years that conclusively prove your claims.

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#24 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127736 Posts

@n64dd said:
@horgen said:
@n64dd said:

I seriously have no idea what you're trying to say here.

What you view as desperation is viewed as enthusiasm from the other side. And vice versa

That's a stretch.

Everything you say points to it being true.

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#25 N64DD
Member since 2015 • 13167 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:
@n64dd said:
@mattbbpl said:

@n64dd: Great, charge Democrats with being desperate while Republicans literally undermine democracy. Your party is fraudulent, and you're complicit. Both are morally bankrupt.

Both have been crooked for a long time. Democrats are just visibily worse.

Evidence points to the Republicans being worse. But I'm sure in your little head it's just the bad people out to attack your guys. Facts be damned.

Says the person who voted for Hillary, and she pretty much owned the DNC during an election cycle.

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#26 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180205 Posts

@Damedius said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

Evidence points to the Republicans being worse. But I'm sure in your little head it's just the bad people out to attack your guys. Facts be damned.

I'm sure you have made it your life long missions to study the evidence.

We await your study of the last 242 years that conclusively prove your claims.

Turn off Fox News dude........

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#27 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 36092 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:
@Damedius said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

Evidence points to the Republicans being worse. But I'm sure in your little head it's just the bad people out to attack your guys. Facts be damned.

I'm sure you have made it your life long missions to study the evidence.

We await your study of the last 242 years that conclusively prove your claims.

Turn off Fox News dude........

You don't need an analysis of the entire history of the US to figure out which party has been, and is currently, worse for the people throughout your own lifetime. I don't really care that democrats of over a 100 years ago supported slavery when they are currently the one's who are pushing for greater equality.

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#28 Damedius
Member since 2010 • 737 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:
@Damedius said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

Evidence points to the Republicans being worse. But I'm sure in your little head it's just the bad people out to attack your guys. Facts be damned.

I'm sure you have made it your life long missions to study the evidence.

We await your study of the last 242 years that conclusively prove your claims.

Turn off Fox News dude........

That's what I thought. All snark no substance.

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#29 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180205 Posts

@Damedius said:
@LJS9502_basic said:
@Damedius said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

Evidence points to the Republicans being worse. But I'm sure in your little head it's just the bad people out to attack your guys. Facts be damned.

I'm sure you have made it your life long missions to study the evidence.

We await your study of the last 242 years that conclusively prove your claims.

Turn off Fox News dude........

That's what I thought. All snark no substance.

There can be ZERO discussion with someone that ignores the facts. You are such a person.

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#30 Damedius
Member since 2010 • 737 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:

There can be ZERO discussion with someone that ignores the facts. You are such a person.

Your opinions aren't facts.

Stop making excuses for never backing up your opinions with facts.

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#31 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180205 Posts

@Damedius said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

There can be ZERO discussion with someone that ignores the facts. You are such a person.

Your opinions aren't facts.

Stop making excuses for never backing up your opinions with facts.

I wasn't stating opinion. The facts are what they are whether you ignore them or not. You're wrong. Period.

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#32 Damedius
Member since 2010 • 737 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:
@Damedius said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

There can be ZERO discussion with someone that ignores the facts. You are such a person.

Your opinions aren't facts.

Stop making excuses for never backing up your opinions with facts.

I wasn't stating opinion. The facts are what they are whether you ignore them or not. You're wrong. Period.

"I'm right. You're wrong."

Please stop. Your masterful debating is too much. You should do it for a living.

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#33 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180205 Posts

@Damedius said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

I wasn't stating opinion. The facts are what they are whether you ignore them or not. You're wrong. Period.

"I'm right. You're wrong."

Please stop. Your masterful debating is too much. You should do it for a living.

And yet I haven't stated opinion in this thread anywhere. But you have. Which is why I said there can be discussion as you don't believe in facts.

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#34 Damedius
Member since 2010 • 737 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:
@Damedius said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

I wasn't stating opinion. The facts are what they are whether you ignore them or not. You're wrong. Period.

"I'm right. You're wrong."

Please stop. Your masterful debating is too much. You should do it for a living.

And yet I haven't stated opinion in this thread anywhere. But you have. Which is why I said there can be discussion as you don't believe in facts.

"Evidence points to the Republicans being worse."

Opinion not fact, especially when you don't produce said evidence.

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#35 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180205 Posts

@Damedius said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

And yet I haven't stated opinion in this thread anywhere. But you have. Which is why I said there can be discussion as you don't believe in facts.

"Evidence points to the Republicans being worse."

Opinion not fact, especially when you don't produce said evidence.

Really? So Watergate, Irangate, the mess in the Middle East, and some of criminals in the current administration is opinion? You can't make this stuff up guys.

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#36 Damedius
Member since 2010 • 737 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:
@Damedius said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

And yet I haven't stated opinion in this thread anywhere. But you have. Which is why I said there can be discussion as you don't believe in facts.

"Evidence points to the Republicans being worse."

Opinion not fact, especially when you don't produce said evidence.

Really? So Watergate, Irangate, the mess in the Middle East, and some of criminals in the current administration is opinion? You can't make this stuff up guys.

IRS scandal, White Water, Benghazi. Yes the Democrats have never had any scandals.

Then there was your girl Hillary that played dirty against Bernie.

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#37 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180205 Posts

@Damedius said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

Really? So Watergate, Irangate, the mess in the Middle East, and some of criminals in the current administration is opinion? You can't make this stuff up guys.

IRS scandal, White Water, Benghazi. Yes the Democrats have never had any scandals.

Then there was your girl Hillary that played dirty against Bernie.

And who resigned or was convicted? Water Water was a big nothing that didn't pan out but wasted taxpayer money. The most they got was a lie about sex. Benghazi? The facts don't implicate Clinton.

"Despite persistent accusations against President Obama, Hillary Clinton, and Susan Rice, ten investigations — six by Republican-controlled congressional committees — did not find that they or any other high-ranking Obama administration officials had acted improperly."

IRS? I hope you're talking about the trump's defrauding the taxpayers.

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#38 Damedius
Member since 2010 • 737 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:
@Damedius said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

Really? So Watergate, Irangate, the mess in the Middle East, and some of criminals in the current administration is opinion? You can't make this stuff up guys.

IRS scandal, White Water, Benghazi. Yes the Democrats have never had any scandals.

Then there was your girl Hillary that played dirty against Bernie.

And who resigned or was convicted? Water Water was a big nothing that didn't pan out but wasted taxpayer money. The most they got was a lie about sex. Benghazi? The facts don't implicate Clinton.

"Despite persistent accusations against President Obama, Hillary Clinton, and Susan Rice, ten investigations — six by Republican-controlled congressional committees — did not find that they or any other high-ranking Obama administration officials had acted improperly."

IRS? I hope you're talking about the trump's defrauding the taxpayers.

Sorry sometimes I forget you Americans get easily distracted by the media, so you are easy to misdirect.

Benghazi was about running guns to terrorists, I mean "freedom fighters". While we are on the subject of Benghazi, let's all take the time to thank Obama for making Libya safe for slavery again.

White Water did end up with a conviction but Clinton pardoned that person before he left office.

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#39 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180205 Posts

@Damedius said:

Sorry sometimes I forget you Americans get easily distracted by the media, so you are easy to misdirect.

Benghazi was about running guns to terrorists, I mean "freedom fighters". While we are on the subject of Benghazi, let's all take the time to thank Obama for making Libya safe for slavery again.

White Water did end up with a conviction but Clinton pardoned that person before he left office.

Ah so you're now stating opinions since the investigations found nothing. Got it. As for convictions I was talking about against the Clintons. Which is what they were after.

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#40  Edited By Damedius
Member since 2010 • 737 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:
@Damedius said:

Sorry sometimes I forget you Americans get easily distracted by the media, so you are easy to misdirect.

Benghazi was about running guns to terrorists, I mean "freedom fighters". While we are on the subject of Benghazi, let's all take the time to thank Obama for making Libya safe for slavery again.

White Water did end up with a conviction but Clinton pardoned that person before he left office.

Ah so you're now stating opinions since the investigations found nothing. Got it. As for convictions I was talking about against the Clintons. Which is what they were after.

Those aren't opinions.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/10218288/CIA-running-arms-smuggling-team-in-Benghazi-when-consulate-was-attacked.html

The US under Obama didn't suddenly decide to give up on Empire. They trained and armed terrorists under his watch. First to take out Libya then to attempt to take out Syria. You set up bases in Syria under Obama.

Do you really think that Obama appeared on the scene and dismantled the American Empire?

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#41 Zaryia
Member since 2016 • 21607 Posts
@Damedius said:
@LJS9502_basic said:
@Damedius said:

Sorry sometimes I forget you Americans get easily distracted by the media, so you are easy to misdirect.

Benghazi was about running guns to terrorists, I mean "freedom fighters". While we are on the subject of Benghazi, let's all take the time to thank Obama for making Libya safe for slavery again.

White Water did end up with a conviction but Clinton pardoned that person before he left office.

Ah so you're now stating opinions since the investigations found nothing. Got it. As for convictions I was talking about against the Clintons. Which is what they were after.

Those aren't opinions.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/10218288/CIA-running-arms-smuggling-team-in-Benghazi-when-consulate-was-attacked.html

The US under Obama didn't suddenly decide to give up on Empire. They trained and armed terrorists under his watch. First to take out Libya then to attempt to take out Syria. You set up bases in Syria under Obama.

Do you really think that Obama appeared on the scene and dismantled the American Empire?

The investigation found no wrong doing years after that article.

This is a matter of factual record.

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#42 Damedius
Member since 2010 • 737 Posts

@zaryia said:

The investigation found no wrong doing years after that article.

This is a matter of factual record.

Whether or not there was any "wrong doing" depends on your point of view, doesn't it?

You might think that training and arming "freedom fighters" to overthrow sovereign nations, isn't a form of "wrong doing."

I would venture to say that the millions of people that have been killed, maimed and displaced, might disagree with you.

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#43 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 14724 Posts

@Damedius said:
@zaryia said:

The investigation found no wrong doing years after that article.

This is a matter of factual record.

Whether or not there was any "wrong doing" depends on your point of view, doesn't it?

You might think that training and arming "freedom fighters" to overthrow sovereign nations, isn't a form of "wrong doing."

I would venture to say that the millions of people that have been killed, maimed and displaced, might disagree with you.

So what you're saying is that the 'scandals' you pointed out ended up being investigated and no one charged with wrong doing.

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#45  Edited By Damedius
Member since 2010 • 737 Posts

@HoolaHoopMan said:
@Damedius said:
@zaryia said:

The investigation found no wrong doing years after that article.

This is a matter of factual record.

Whether or not there was any "wrong doing" depends on your point of view, doesn't it?

You might think that training and arming "freedom fighters" to overthrow sovereign nations, isn't a form of "wrong doing."

I would venture to say that the millions of people that have been killed, maimed and displaced, might disagree with you.

So what you're saying is that the 'scandals' you pointed out ended up being investigated and no one charged with wrong doing.

So what you're saying is that their lives don't matter because "They hate your FREEDOM."

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#46 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 14724 Posts

@Damedius said:
@HoolaHoopMan said:
@Damedius said:

Whether or not there was any "wrong doing" depends on your point of view, doesn't it?

You might think that training and arming "freedom fighters" to overthrow sovereign nations, isn't a form of "wrong doing."

I would venture to say that the millions of people that have been killed, maimed and displaced, might disagree with you.

So what you're saying is that the 'scandals' you pointed out ended up being investigated and no one charged with wrong doing.

So what you're saying is that their lives don't matter because "They hate your FREEDOM."

I guess I should have know you'd throw out a strawman. Can't answer something truthfully so you simply veer it into new territory.

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#48  Edited By mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23356 Posts

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#49 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts

@Damedius said:
@HoolaHoopMan said:

I guess I should have know you'd throw out a strawman. Can't answer something truthfully so you simply veer it into new territory.

I should have known that Americans don't consider crimes against foreigners to be scandalous and/or wrong.

Maybe it's time to update your National Anthem.

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But weren't the rebel alliance freedom fighters? So arming them was a crime?