Working class anger at Green Agenda.

https://www.newsweek.com/popular-uprising-against-elites-has-gone-global-opinion-1722653

If Green policy comes at a price of hurting working class people and their families.

If it drives inflation and higher costs making it harder for everyday people to get by.

if the results of such policy makes little to no difference to climate change on the global scale.

is it not just self destruction?

Thought this was a well done article and i happen to agree with much of it.

I also find it alarming how little MSM will talk about recent global protests.

What is particularly frustrating is that the government is fully aware that what it is asking farmers to do will drive many of them out of existence. In fact, the government originally planned to move at a slower pace—until a lawsuit brought by environmental groups in 2019 forced an acceleration of the timetable.

The reaction by members of the agricultural sector has been massive and ongoing since 2019, but the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic allowed the government of Prime Minister Mark Rutte to ban protests in 2020 and 2021. With the reignited demonstrations this year, the authorities have also switched to a more aggressive approach. There have been arrests and even warning shots fired by police at farmers, one almost killing a 16-year-old protestor.

Yet the sympathies of the Dutch are not with their government; they are solidly with their farmers. Current polls indicate that the Farmers Political Party, formed just three years ago in response to the new regulations, would gain a whopping 11 seats in Parliament if elections were held today (it currently holds just one seat). Moreover, the Dutch Fishermen's Union has publicly joined the protests, blocking harbors with fishing crews holding signs that read "Eendracht maakt Kracht":Unity Creates Strength.

But while the Dutch people are on the side of the farmers, their elites are behaving much as they did in Canada and the U.S., and not just those in government. Media outlets are refusing to even report the protests, and when they do, they cast the farmers as extremists.

Why the disconnect? Every reliable poll of European newsrooms from Germany to the Netherlands show that climate change is a much more important topic for journalists than it is for ordinary people. It's not that average citizens don't care about climate change, but that they have the common sense to know that destroying their farm so the government's emission goals can be met in 2030 instead of 2035 will not change the planet's climate.

After all, the Netherlands accounts for just 0.46 percent of the world's CO2 emissions, and while a further reduction might be desirable, it will not be decisive in combating climate change over the next eight years. It may make the country's elite to feel good about themselves, but it will also result in large parts of the population seeing their living standards decline and their economic existence targeted by the state for ideological reasons.

There is a malaise in the West currently, where ideological goals are pursued at the expense of the lower middle and working classes. Whether it's truckers in Canada, farmers in the Netherlands, oil and gas companies in the United States, ideology, not science or hard evidence, is dominating the agenda, gratifying the elites while immiserating the working class.

Ultimately, there is a risk that climate policies will do to Europe what Marxism did to Latin America. A continent with all the conditions for widespread prosperity and a healthy environment will impoverish and ruin itself for ideological reasons.

In the end, both the people and the climate will be worse off.

What a giant load of crap.

If farmers are worried, they should be worried about capitalism in its current form, not the green agenda. Hell, truth is, they'd benefit from the green agenda.

But no, they don't take issue with getting paid a few bucks for a literal ton of iceberg lettuce that the retailer then sells for about a 2000% markup to customers. No, it's the hippies, they're the ones to blame.

There's no reason we should have to pay more for food, and no reason farmers can't be paid more at the same time. Make billionaires illegal. Eat the rich.

@mrbojangles25: blaming capitalism is such a cop out, very lazy.

Also what you are stating doesn't even make sense when what is happening is government policy hurting people for little to no significant gain.

Big government and reckless policy is to blame here not capitalism.

@mrbojangles25: yes, blame capitalism on it, when it’s really an issue on government policy. You really have no clue how the economy works, do you?

Pretty sure we already have a topic on this ;)

The trucking convoy ended up rather unpopular. And it was protesting some rather common sense regulations, COVID downplayers like them is why COVID got so bad in the first place. Which lead to the economic crisis we see now.

Dutch Protests are really silly, not only is the meat and diary industry ridicilously subsidized by the hand they are now biting. But the whole project is more an engineering project than anything. And fishermen protesting with them is silly, freshwater fish are going extinct at an alarming rate, and irresponsible use of ammonia from farmers is a large reason for that (overfishing is bad too).

Also why are they bringing up climate change? When the nitrogen emissions is a seperate issue? Could this op-ed writer at have done their actual research before releasing this article?

I have a TON of issues with the beef and dairy, and fishing industries. The latter needs some heavy regulation, and the world would be better off if the former went away entirely. I could go on with my heavy issues on both. But I wouldnt want to derail this into a pro-vegan soapbox.

Capitalism as it was intended to work is a beautiful thing.

Capitalism as it is currently utilized has become a monstrosity.

I agree a lot of the problem is government, but we have to meet in the middle somewhere. Farmers need to get paid more from the people they sell to, they need government assistance to make the required changes, and customers and the general public and farmers all benefit. Gotta stop the raping and pillaging of the workers and producers by the corporate world.

Bingo. Food should not cost as much, food should be more wholesome and fresh, farmers should get paid more.

Common sense, common good, and scientific fact versus people that fear change and clutch to tradition.

@mrbojangles25: your post is asinine and ill informed! You REALLY don’t know how farmers make their income and you blame it on a boogeyman like how Christians used to blame comic books for corrupting youths! You seriously don’t know a lick a thing how food prices are set

Agreed, the solution in this case would not be to produce more, but distribute our food better. Over 50% of all perfectly edible food is just... thrown away.

Better distribution is the solution. Not going on these needless protests.

@mrbojangles25: @Maroxad: both of you are completely ignoring the topic at hand.

How tf is forcing Farmers out of business due to government climate change policy have ANYTHING to do with what you 2 are going on about... 😂

Let me guess, you're going to go into some spiel about supply and demand, and how there are various contributing factors, and so on.

That's all well and good but at the end of the day if Safeway is buying flour and posting record profits and the CEO is given a 30-million dollar bonus but the wheat farmer is barely making ends meet, that's a big fucking problem.

My buddy was like you. He actually grew up on a farm, worked the fields. Thought it was big brother keeping the boot on him. He had these California water rights and they were always trying to redo the deal, and he was like "Damn Pelosi! GRRRR!"

Then he went to college and got into irrigation. Saw how bullshit it was and how the farmers are manipulated. Then he started proposing changes that would save water AND save money and the farmers are like "WOH WOH WOH" because, again, voting against self interests.

Farmers = rural. Rural is red. So they get their information from anti-intellectuals and never question it.

Exactly. I hate to speak ill of them but they're going to all die off some day and it will be no one's fault but their own.

California agriculture is an amazing thing, I love it, I love living near it. I love eating good food and having good produce and meat and cheese. I pay premium for it, too, and I am happy to do it. Farmer's markets are great.

I don't want to see nothing but tract housing where there used to be farms. Agriculture needs to adapt or die.

This isnt climate change policy.

The nitrogen emissions the farmers are protesting are related to, which is an entirely seperate matter. Much like Plastic Pollution.

As for how improving distribution is better? Because this isnt Stardew valley. The big issue facing the food industry right now is not that governments are preventing them from making money (in fact, farmers rely on governments to stay afloat). The big issue is that most of their produce go to complete waste.

@mrbojangles25: yes it is, if you can’t understand basic supply and demand, then you’ll never understand how farming works! Farmers still need equipment and manpower to ensure you eat a bowl of cereal at a fair price. If farmers are hindered by a ban by the government, it will be harder to grow to meet the demand and we get a mark up. Why is that hard to understand? Have you talk to farmers?

@mrbojangles25: food prices will soar higher after your big government climate change policy forces farmers out of business.

You are tap dancing around the actual topic at hand. Blaming grocery stores and capitalism lol...

That's not why farmers are upset right now, they are upset about these government regulations forcing them out. Stop ignoring the actual topic at hand.

Except they aren't. The thing that they are protesting is pretty much just an engineering infrastructure project. That is why they are spending 25 billion euro on this.

@Maroxad: burning money for little to no gain.

At a time where food shortages are already high.

This is mind numbingly stupid. This is reckless big government policy. It will hurt the lower/working class.

@LJS9502_basic: Farmers rather ensure you you get your food, than worry about what you think of them! They’re the backbone, speaking ill will to them and you better be sure you know how to farm

They're upset because someone at the top told them what to be upset at.

Again, not to be an asshole, but these folks are generally uneducated and can't really see the forest for the trees. If their area is saturated with anti-green propaganda, then that's what they're going to be pissed at. If they go down to the local watering hole, they're going to talk about it with their peers.

It's a shame, really, because they could be told the truth, told how to save money, but they're lied to instead.

It really is corrupt capitalism, corporations, and right-wing talking points. Change bad, big government bad, hippies bad.

You see it driving around the Central Valley in California. There's signs every five miles "STOP THE CONGRESS CREATED WATER CRISIS!!!!" and so on.

Some of the conversation here has shifted from the Dutch to the US, and you all realize that agriculture in the US his heavily subsidized and propped up by the government, not held down by it.... right?

@Maroxad: am I supposed to be impressed by the billions their government is spending to hurt their agriculture industry?? That makes it even worse.

These policies will hurt people and give you little to no gain in stopping climate change. It's not based in science, if they actually followed the science they would realize how insignificant of a difference this will make for climate change and recognize the economic instability it can cause as a bigger threat than what they are claiming to be fighting against.

Oh yes how patriotic, glory to the farmers, comrade!

Lot's of people work hard, man. Why are farmers the backbone and not, idunno...carpenters? Plumbers? Electricians? They all contribute, too.

They're farmers, that's it. They play their role in society like the rest of us. Cool it with the nationalism, otherwise you're going to need a red flag and a hammer and sickle.

@mrbojangles25: you sound so arrogant. They know their industry better than you do. Yeah you sound like an asshole. A "my shit smells so good" asshole!

"not trying to sound like an asshole"

Continues to talk like an asshole.

Who are you to call them uneducated? Do they know about farming? Wouldn't that make them pretty damn knowledgeable on this topic???

You can take your logic and common sense and get out!

😉

The infrastructure spending will make it the ammonia distribution more efficient, effectively saving money (and ammonia). While also polluting a whole lot less. Sometimes producing more wont necessarily lead to greater income. We have plenty of food out there, what we need to do instead is make more with what we have.

Once again, this is not climate change related. Ammonia is a seperate issue entirely.

In the USA a pound of beef costs roughly 4-5 dollars, as of 2020. Without government subsidies they would go for around 28-30 dollars per pound. People should let that sink in.

Everyone loves their own brand, but I wouldn't say my shit smells good.

Anyway, nothing but love and respect for farmers, but I don't put them on the pedestal like you guys do. Your kind love to make things an emotional issue. Any time someone makes an objective critique you're quick to play the white knight and go "Oh yeah! Well then YOU go farm". Very mature.

You love your troops, your police, and your farmers. So do the rest of us, for the most part. We just don't idolize them, and they'd tell you that you shouldn't either in an honest conversation.

For the record, I work with ranchers. I supply them with spent grain from my brewery. I buy that barley from farmers.

I see a 70-year old man drive a dump truck to the brewery at 4 in the morning every day to pick up that grain. You think he would be doing that if he had options? Only reason he is doing that is because he has been doing that since he was 10 years old (not driving the truck, but ranching). School wasn't emphasized, he was fed a steady diet of farmer propaganda, and before he knew it he was 50 years old and it was too late to change careers.

My friend was also a farmer. Started when he was a kid. Spoke better Spanish than English from working with the migrants. But he had options given to him. You know what he doesn't do? Farm.

His words, not mine. Farming is not romantic or glorious, it's hard work that has to be done. I think they deserve more money for their work, and I think it should come out of the pockets of billionaires that pay them too little, and I don't think it has to result in higher food costs.

Sadly they seem to be trying to fight the inevitable rather than adapt to it.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/23/european-farmers-lose-attempt-to-ban-terms-such-veggie-burger

The meat and dairy industry is cornered though. Their businesses are unsustainable, and in a decade we may see a good chunk of meat and dairy businesses go bankrupt. Especially the dairy industry which is being replaced as we speak,

https://www.livekindly.com/dairy-industry-disappear-decade/#:~:text=Consumers%20are%20growing%20weary%20of,eight%20percent%20drop%20over%202017.

https://plantbasednews.org/lifestyle/dairy-decline-brits-vegan-milk/#:~:text=More%20Brits%20are%20using%20plant,three%20months%20to%20February%202019.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bethkaiserman/2019/01/31/dairy-industry-plant-based-milks/?sh=4cb12fb51c9e

As for meat, cultured meat is expected to be cheaper than slaughtered meat within a decade, and vegan alternatives are overtaking them now during the current food crisis.

There is a reason these farmers are trying to push any law to suppress their competition.

It's not hard to provide yourself with food. Also they benefit from my tax dollars so they can shut it.

What are you talking about? The "green agenda" is nothing but corrupted crony capitalism. Period.

The "working class" will be against whatever they are told to

The government already subsidizes food to a very large extent. Maybe they should pull their funding and price fixing and let our open borders determine prices of good when we start importing cheaper food from abroad. Somehow I think your average Joe and 'free market' enthusiast wouldn't be too happy about that.

Or maybe, just maybe, we have an existential problem at our doorstep which will end poorly for everyone (climate change), including 'working class' people, if we choose to do nothing. Better yet, why are we defining 'working class' as just farmers? Why do they get that mantle? I've met many farmers in my life, many in the family, and plenty are ignorant assholes that admit they gobble up government funds on a day to day basis and would be out of business without their help.

They don't get to hold that title of 'working class' while authors above get to arbitrary delineate between groups in order to sow dissent and conflict.

@LJS9502_basic: no you can’t

Not true. Many people grow their own food.

incredible **** the farmers, get rid of them... Who cares if they go under.... people can grow their own food...

Sure that will work wonderfully, NYC and LA would have to eat rats, people in the cities don't even have land lol

Sure people CAN grow their own food, many definitely don't.

Grocery stores go dry and millions are going to loose their shit.

Way to follow a conversation. Is the only recourse the extremist on the right have is hyperbolic outrage?

That is a bit of a hyperbolic reaction. What LJS is saying is that most branches of farming is generally speaking considered a low skill job (as in anyone can do it). Also people grow their own food all the time.

As for my attitude towards farmers,

I have an extremely negative attitude towards ranching industry, even if I respect vegetable and fruit farmers. If the meat industry would collapse over night I wouldn't care one bit. The dairy industry is already on its way out, and as for the people who work there, I hope the government has plans on making them transition away from it.

then why are the farmers saying the only way they can meet these regulations is cut their livestock by anywhere from 30-75% ultimately closing down their farm?

At the end of last month, the Dutch government unveiled a plan to slash 50% of pollutants such as nitrogen oxides and ammonia by 2030, according to a report from ABC News. As the government acknowledged in a statement, “The honest message… is that not all farmers can continue their business.”

No. That's absolute BS.

Try and start a Dairy farm, or any farm for that matter, and see how far you get. You wouldn't have a clue on where to start.

Its a specialized field, especially when you are talking about the really large farms, one mistake and you can screw up your whole harvest. We aren't talking about some guy growing a couple cucumbers in their back yard, or a hired hand to pick strawberrys.... I'm talking about actual farmers.... a ton of work goes into it and a lot of specific knowledge from soil, equipment, transport, workers, Its extremely difficult industry to get into it and involves a lot of labor to get it done. Which is why people in that industry tend to be generational.

That being said agriculture is one of the most critical industry's to have. Its more important than most. Without enough food things fall apart.

I get your vegan so it makes you happy that livestock farmers are being punished and drove out by their government. But you have got to think, if they go under its not like vegetables are going to just miraculously take the space.

You get less food with the same amount of mouths.

@sargentd: these whiners should work harder. I personally work my 40 hour main job. Then uber on the side for another 20 hours. Then I also study to improve my skills, and end of the day, 5 days a week i spend grueling time at the gym. I don't need to do these things, but I do. People have gotten too soft. Green agenda? It's just the way the world's going. Far too many loser whiners out there these days.

@blaznwiipspman1: lol no offense man but farmers work harder than you. Your Uber side gig and you going to the gym is not impressive 👍

@sargentd: you would be surprised, most people work 40 hours or less and bitch about stupid things like inflation and global warming.

I don't think it matters how much you work or what you do, this inflation sucks lol

LOL. The US subsidies on ag are wild.

food is important

I haven't even qualified whether it's a good or bad thing. I'm just asking that everyone recognize it and internalize it.

Thread is about the regulations being pushed by the government in the Netherlands and Dutch farmers protesting them.

I'm not sure where this became a conversation about subsidies for farms in the US.

@sargentd: Post 10.

@mattbbpl: yeah it was Bojangles, I told him to stop tap dancing around the actual topic at hand smh

It really opened up the topic once this was posted:

It was inevitable to leave country in the OP at that point.

I was still talking about the original topic, but w/e doesn't matter.