What should Sonic do besides running fast?

Okay, I know that Sonic's special ability is to run fast, and I also know that it's what makes him cool (at least to me).

But why does everyone think that every sonic game has to be about Sonic quickly zipping through levels?

I mean, yeah sonic runs fast. But that's not the only thing that good Sonic games (meaning Genesis sonic games) are made of. As much as sonic is about running fast, it is about quick reflexes ( suddenly you see an enemy in front of you and you quickly press jump ), exploration ( where is that monitor with sonic's face? where is it? ), making decisions ( will you take the normal route which is easier, or that alternative one which puts you in sudden death situations but gives you more rings? ), a little taste of puzzle ( push the boulder on the key ), and some tense boss fights (Sonic 1, Zone 3 was really tense for me! ).

But these days when someone mentions sonic, everyone thinks about running fast and no one seems to care about all other good stuff about sonic.

Maybe that's why every sonic game ends in disaster: You want sonic to run fast, but you can't ask the player to dodge stuff that get in sonic's way for 8 continuous hours. So you turn him into a werehog to add some variety and that's when everything goes wrong. Maybe if they would somehow blend the night and day levels in Sonic Unleashed in a pleasant way, the game would become way better.

When I think about a 3D platformer Sonic, The Playstation Spyro games come to my mind. I think a good Sonic game would be an open-world one ( sandbox?? ), which features areas that are not easily accessible, so the player has to put his skills with sonic into good use in order to get access to those places, then the game would reward the gamers with unlockables ( ie: new characters, mini games, new worlds, costumes, concept art, etc, etc ).

If the game is carefully designed so it would be fun to play, I'm sure it'd be successful. Instead all sonic games feature him running through a linear stage while dodging and jumping, plus a gimmick to make the game different than the rest of sonic games ( give him a sword, turn him into a werehog, make a cursing, gun-wielding character ), and then everyone asks the question "what went wrong?" I believe that nothing went wrong, but nothing went quite right. It's just another mediocre sonic game that's a bit fun to play for a while and then you can easily forget about it.

Summary: IMO to make a quality sonic game, simply pay enough attention to level design and character handling, and make sure the game is fun to play.

PS: Sorry for the long post

PS #2: I've only played Sonic 1&2 for Genesis ( I have seen the new ones (Wii ones)\played them just for five minutes (PS2 Ones) ) so if I had made any mistakes about some of the games I'm sorry. (I've never played sonic adventure, so this post is not about dreamcast games, but the new 7th gen games.)

Because when Sega first designed the character the focus was on speed. Without speed Sonic is just felix the cat on meth. The reason recent games have been doing poorly in sales is that people don't want to play as a ton of friends or Sonic as a werewolf or Sonic driving a car. Not many care that much about Sonic the character. Games are about GAMEPLAY. If Sega can't use speed creatively enough then they should end the series.

It would be like giving Mario a gun and turning his series into an FPS all of a sudden. Then it's not a Mario game, it's just Mario copy/pasted into an FPS. Speed is Sonic's thing. Just like jumping and power ups are Mario's thing. Sucking up enemies are Kirby's thing and exploring dungeons is Link's thing. Get it?

It would be like if they made a new Banjo game where they removed the fun, run and jump platforming exploration and made you sit around and build cars for repetitive races. OH WAIT! And notice how that bombed. No one wanted to play "car builder Banjo" the same way people don't want to play werehog Sonic or sword Sonic. It's not innovative to tack on gimmicks as an attempt to "innovate" the series.

If I wanted to use a sword, I'd play Zelda.

If I wanted to run around doing tedious fetch quests, I'd play World of Warcraft.

I play Sonic games because I want to go fast through well designed stages.

Why is this so hard for some of you to grasp?

Because he was made to be fast if you take that away its not Sonic.

I've got no problem with sonic running fast. My problem is that Sonic "just" runs fast (in recent games). I say only running fast is not enough for a quality game.

Games are about GAMEPLAY.kbaily

You said it. "Running fast" is not called gameplay. Gameplay incorporates a lot of things that are well put together. It's a system, not an ability. If sonic would run fast & do nothing else, he would only bore you.

I play Sonic games because I want to go fast through well designed stages.

Why is this so hard for some of you to grasp?

kbaily

Ahhhh, It's hard to explain again. I guess you all misunderstood me. Read my first post and you get what I mean.... I have a feeling that you didn't read it because it was long. and I somehow can't say what I mean in a line but,

Summary: IMO to make a quality sonic game, simply pay enough attention to level design and character handling, and make sure the game is fun to play.

gezegond

I didn't say anything about him not running fast, I said " Run fast in a meaningful and enjoyable way"

Sonic "just" runs fast (in recent games). gezegond

If this were so, then the Werehog never happened.kjhg53

Everyone considers the werehog levels the bad aspect of sonic unleashed. So even though the werehog doesn't run fast, you believe that it should.

I believe otherwise.

[QUOTE="kjhg53"]If this were so, then the Werehog never happened.gezegond

Everyone considers the werehog levels the bad aspect of sonic unleashed. So even though the werehog doesn't run fast, you believe that it should.

I believe otherwise.

the werehog shouldn't even exist.

Sonic is about fast paced stages, not any of the gimmicks we have seen lately on his 3D adventures.

Everyone here play Sonic games to play fast paced platformer games. No those pointless shooting, searching and other filler stages.

The werehog was not creative or original or anything. At best it was ripping off God of War. I'm so sick of listening to these Neo Sonic fans trying to defend the series and all it's crappy gimmicks. Sonic's newer games aren't selling that well because people don't want werehogs and swords in their Sonic games.

Sega can do creative things with speed. They did it in the Genesis games. If they can't make Sonic fast and be creative about it then they should end the series. All Sega does now is slap Sonic's face on any piece of garbage they call a game in order to suck money out of stupid fans willing to buy any piece of pixelated dog crap with Sonic's face on it. Honestlly Sega could crap out a turd, paint it blue, stick Sonic's face on it and some fans would still defend that it was not a turd. Then eat it and rub it all over their faces.

There's two kinds of innovations in gaming. Sustaining and Disruptive. For years Sonic has been using "sustaining innovation" in that they added cutscenes, voice acting and stupid gimmicks and catering to an inevitably shrinking fanbase until the series finally dies out. This is what Sega is going for. Eventually fans are no longer "sustained" by this. A lot of Zelda fans got tired of boats and wolves and trains. Those things don't truly add anything new to the experience. Meanwhile disruptive innovation is improving something no one considered. This is sort of what New Super Mario Bros. Wii is doing and Wii Sports getting the interest in those who have lost interest in gaming. Our hopes is "Needlemouse" is disruptive innovation in that Sega figures out what made those old games great and make it feel new and fresh again.

Sonic is about speed. If Sega can't make Sonic's speed innovative and fun to play then they should end the series.

the werehog shouldn't even exist.

Sonic is about fast paced stages, not any of the gimmicks we have seen lately on his 3D adventures.

Everyone here play Sonic games to play fast paced platformer games. No those pointless shooting, searching and other filler stages.nunchuk28

Maybe that's why every sonic game ends in disaster: You want sonic to run fast, but you can't ask the player to dodge stuff that get in sonic's way for 8 continuous hours. So you turn him into a werehog to add some variety and that's when everything goes wrong. Maybe if they would somehow blend the night and day levels in Sonic Unleashed in a pleasant way, the game would become way better.gezegond

I'm so sick of listening to these Neo Sonic fans trying to defend the series and all it's crappy gimmickskbaily

Instead all sonic games feature him running through a linear stage while dodging and jumping, plus a gimmick to make the game different than the rest of sonic games ( give him a sword, turn him into a werehog, make a cursing, gun-wielding character ), and then everyone asks the question "what went wrong?"gezegond

Sega can do creative things with speed. They did it in the Genesis games. If they can't make Sonic fast and be creative about it then they should end the series.kbaily

I didn't say anything about him not running fast, I said " Run fast in a meaningful and enjoyable way"gezegond

There.... I agree with all of you. Read my posts before trying to tell me I'm wrong.

[QUOTE="kjhg53"]If this were so, then the Werehog never happened.gezegond

Everyone considers the werehog levels the bad aspect of sonic unleashed. So even though the werehog doesn't run fast, you believe that it should.

I believe otherwise.

YOU ARE ALL MISUNDERSTANDING ME!

I know the first post is long, but if you don't read it you won't get what I'm saying. You're just repeating stuff I've already said before.

If you don't wanna read it, it's alright. but stop posting stuff I've already posted.

And for you kbaily, I'm not a Neo Sonic fan. The only sonic games that I really played are Sonic 1&2 for genesis. And I don't defend Sonic's gimmicks. I do know that Sonic is fun because of his speed. Stop labeling me alright? This is my first topic in this union, it's not nice to offend people on their first visit.

I created this topic because I wanted to discuss about Sonic's gameplay in a quality game with some Sonic fans.

Ahhh, I tried to be nice... I guess being nice is not IN ME.

No, I don't believe it should run fast, I believe it never happened.kjhg53

Ahhh, I don't get it... you mean that you believe "Sonic Unleashed" was never released? I'm pretty sure it was.

And by "you" I meant "most sonic fans, generally". Ofcourse, I've got no idea of what goes on in your mind.I barely know you.

[QUOTE="kjhg53"]No, I don't believe it should run fast, I believe it never happened.gezegond

Ahhh, I don't get it... you mean that you believe "Sonic Unleashed" was never released? I'm pretty sure it was.

And by "you" I meant "most sonic fans, generally". Ofcourse, I've got no idea of what goes on in your mind.I barely know you.

I see what you mean, Unleashed is a good example. Though Sonic was running fast, it was JUST about him running fast. All the platforming, simple puzzles, etc. from the original 4 was replaced by ridiculous speed and levels you had to memorize to get through and a lot of faffing about to get the next stage (The Wii/PS2 version didn't have as much as the PS3/360, but there was still plenty of forced searching to annoy me).

Unleashed was too fast. The speed of Sonic Adventure is enough to feel fast while still not requiring you to have memorized a stage you are playing for the first time. I think the sandbox monster has devoured enough to the genres already, so Sonic should stay mostly linear.

You ask why Sonic has to run fast. It's like asking why Mario has to jump or Link has to use a sword. Sonic has to run fast because it's his thing. The sky is blue. The grass is green. Sonic is fast. End of discussion.kbaily

Alright, If I change the Topic name to "Why does sonic have to run fast and only run fast while he can also do a lot of more stuff while running fast" will you read my first post? for the 5th time:

I didn't say anything about him not running fast, I said " Run fast in a meaningful and enjoyable way"gezegond

demoman_chaos, thank you for understanding what I mean.

Well I think I get what he means. In the Genesis games Sonic wasn't constantly running fast. Often you had to stop to hit some switches or ride a platform even as late as Sonic Rush you had rooms that closed off and you had to wipe out a few enemies in order to advance to the next room. With Unleashed's Day stages as well as the Sonic stages of the two adventure titles, it seemed like Sonic was always moving non stop, not stoping to hit a switch. Heroes on the other hand did have you stop from time to time to hit a switch or fight off enemies. It still felt fast for me (except for Chaotix's levels of course) so I kind of see what he's getting at.

Of course the trick to making this work is the flow. Sonic Next Gen had the stupid mechanic of making Sonic slam into a wall and fall over stunned for a few moments. That coupled with horrid framerate broke up the flow horribly. Even the werehog stages might have been more enjoyable had the game not forced you to stop every few moments to clear out the enemies just to move on. Once the werehog got running, it had nice flow plowing through things and smashing through boxes but being forced to stop and button mash through hordes got old and repetitive real fast.

@kbaily: You finally understood me. When you focus too much on running fast, you forget the reason why sonic games were enjoyable in the first place. You mentioned in your latest rant (in the archive) that Sonic must be designed by someone who hates it. The reason is that someone who hates sonic won't focus too much on Sonic himself and instead will try to design a game that is an overall enjoyable experience.

If I wanted to use a sword, I'd play Zelda.

If I wanted to run around doing tedious fetch quests, I'd play World of Warcraft.

I play Sonic games because I want to go fast through well designed stages.kbaily

Let me tell you something:

You play Zelda because it's fun.

You play World of Warcraft because it's fun.

You play Sonic because it's fun.

You won't play Zelda if using a sword is not enjoyable in it.

You won't play World of Warcraft if running around doing fetch quests is not enjoyable in it.

You won't play Sonic if running fast is not enjoyable in it.

The thing that good games have in common is that they are all "enjoyable" and "fun" no matter what you do in them. That's the definition of "entertainment".

The problem with new Sonic games is that they are not enjoyable anymore, at least not as much as Genesis ones.

So to make Sonic successful, you have to simply make it "enjoyable". It doesn't matter who designs the game or that SEGA listens to fans or not, as long as the game is enjoyable, everyone is happy (except me).

@sonicphc: thanks. I read that rant you mentioned. It gave me some ideas about Sonic's level design, but I have to think it through before posting about it.

PS: Is there a way to change a topic's name? I guess I didn't choose an appropriate name for it.

The thing that good games have in common is that they are all "enjoyable" and "fun" no matter what you do in them. That's the definition of "entertainment".

gezegond

Sega's definition of entertainment would be to "blow s*** up." They've stopped caring about quality. They're trying to follow in the footsteps of the two Microsoft giants, Halo and Gears. They know without something beyond bouncing around smacking enemies around, and blasting off at about 30,000 mph, Neo fans will not like Sonic. Shadow is a big example of how low they went. If the guns weren't bad enough, it was the swearing. Now that wasn't necessary in the slightest.

Sega's just not into it anymore, I don't think the original team is there anymore. I mean really, if they pump out a Sonic game every year, that must mean they work on at least three Sonic games every year. The first one comes out, which will allow the second to follow, ect. And most of the time it's dull. Face it, Sega has been poisoned by modern entertainment.

[quote="gezegond"]

The thing that good games have in common is that they are all "enjoyable" and "fun" no matter what you do in them. That's the definition of "entertainment".

Soniczero1993

Sega's definition of entertainment would be to "blow s*** up." They've stopped caring about quality. They're trying to follow in the footsteps of the two Microsoft giants, Halo and Gears. They know without something beyond bouncing around smacking enemies around, and blasting off at about 30,000 mph, Neo fans will not like Sonic. Shadow is a big example of how low they went. If the guns weren't bad enough, it was the swearing. Now that wasn't necessary in the slightest.

Sega's just not into it anymore, I don't think the original team is there anymore. I mean really, if they pump out a Sonic game every year, that must mean they work on at least three Sonic games every year. The first one comes out, which will allow the second to follow, ect. And most of the time it's dull. Face it, Sega has been poisoned by modern entertainment.

they are still some bright people at SEGA. But they don't work on Sonic games, thats for sure

[QUOTE="Soniczero1993"]

[quote="gezegond"]

The thing that good games have in common is that they are all "enjoyable" and "fun" no matter what you do in them. That's the definition of "entertainment".

nunchuk28

Sega's definition of entertainment would be to "blow s*** up." They've stopped caring about quality. They're trying to follow in the footsteps of the two Microsoft giants, Halo and Gears. They know without something beyond bouncing around smacking enemies around, and blasting off at about 30,000 mph, Neo fans will not like Sonic. Shadow is a big example of how low they went. If the guns weren't bad enough, it was the swearing. Now that wasn't necessary in the slightest.

Sega's just not into it anymore, I don't think the original team is there anymore. I mean really, if they pump out a Sonic game every year, that must mean they work on at least three Sonic games every year. The first one comes out, which will allow the second to follow, ect. And most of the time it's dull. Face it, Sega has been poisoned by modern entertainment.

they are still some bright people at SEGA. But they don't work on Sonic games, thats for sure

Well there's been stories about the current Sonic Team which is kept around just for the name. They've changed out people over and over again. They're all tired of being forced to crank out Sonic game after Sonic game without given proper time to polish the title (see Sonic Next Gen) Sega's no longer interested in making a good platformer. They just want to make a franchise meaning take all the aspects of Sonic: characters, Eggman, etc. and slap them into another game. Sonic finds himself in the position of being popular enough to be profitable but not loved enough to be used well. The Sonic Team is tired of shoving out half finished Sonic games. That's why Naka left midway through Next Gen's production. He new the publishers wouldn't give him proper time to finish the game and left.

Sonic's plight is indictative of the problems of the modern game industry. Sega publishes a niche title like Madworld (that would not have sold even if put on the 360 or PS3), it bombs. To counteract the loss of money on that title, they crank out a few Sonic games or another Genesis compilation or now they make crappy liscened games to compensate. When instead of making gambles on titles that may or may not sell, they should put that effort into making a good Sonic game. This is another problem with the industry. Developers want to be "artists." Screw you if their game doesn't sell. Customers are stupid and have no taste. It's all about art. The devs of the 8 and 16 bit eras were different. They were happy to make any game. Ever notice how there were some good liscenced games on the NES, SNES and Genesis as opposed to now. That's because devs back then were happy to be working on anything no matter what the subject matter. Now we have video game design cla$$ in college and the industry is overflowing with thousands of 20 year old f---wits convinced their the next Miyamoto not realizing you don't start out making your "artistic vision." You start out making casual games or liscened games for kids. These undisciplined brats hate it because they can't make "what they want." Thus leading to half assed shovelware we see. For those of you wanting to make a mark on the industry, instead of waiting around for your opportunity, make the most of the projects your given because you're not going to get to make the games you want when you start out.

This is a major problem with the modern game industry is that developers don't think about what the consumer wants. They just want to make whatever they want. Look at Banjo Kazooie Nuts and Bolts. Rare devs hadn't had a solid hit since their move to MS. No one wanted to play Kameo or Viva Pinata. No one wanted to spend $50 for a Conker remake. People wanted Killer Instrict 3 or a new Banjo game. But they scrapped the platforming for car building. There was immediately a negative reaction to it. What did Rare say? "Screw you. Sure you want a new platforming game but we don't want to do that. If you don't like it, oh well. Customers are stupid. It's all about our artistic vision." This is basically what's said when you saw that loading screen that read Don't like the cars? Go download Banjo Kazooie on Xbox Live. That was like Rare giving fans a big middle finger. When it comes to Sonic Sega is like "why should we put money into making Sonic good when fans will buy any piece of garbage with his face on it?" The game industry is not your friend. They only see you as money. Do you like paying $50 for online play? Do you like being chastized for buying a used game? Do you like being nickeled and dimed for content that should've been on the disc? Do you hate watching the samey sequels being cranked out year after year? This is the modern game industry.

The Sega you all once knew is dead. It's time to accept it. They couldn't even get Goldenaxe right. How do you screw up Goldenaxe!!?? Yet Sega found a way by removing co-op play and making a crummy God of War knockoff. With no hardware to push, Sega got complacent. There's no need to put as much effort into titles when you don't have hardware to push and I watch these sad Sega fans search desperately for reminence of what once was. Sega is wasting away like Atari did.

well he has to be fast because its also what seperated him from mario had he been slow more then likely he wouldve been dubbed a mario clone

did i win ? :D

GUYS!! The answer is so simple! He simply ate too many chili-dogs.

Serious note: Back then, I mainly played Sonic for Platforming, not speed.

You ask why Sonic has to run fast. It's like asking why Mario has to jump or Link has to use a sword. Sonic has to run fast because it's his thing. The sky is blue. The grass is green. Sonic is fast. End of discussion.kbaily

If you wanna talk SEGA, I don't agree with anything you say. The problem with SEGA is that they don't have much to spend, not like other publishers and this leads to some awkward decisions in SEGA.

I'm sure some of you have watched these two videos already from the GameOverthinker and he did a two part episode regarding Sonic and how he got to where he is now in terms of the state of his games as well as well as his idea of how to make the series good again and what steps should be taken.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hik-TeGQIn0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YDrVRqmrLY&feature=related

Sonic should just be a platformer, to answer the altered title. A speedy platformer. There is no need for anything else.Cloud_765

This

I'm sure some of you have watched these two videos already from the GameOverthinker and he did a two part episode regarding Sonic and how he got to where he is now in terms of the state of his games as well as well as his idea of how to make the series good again and what steps should be taken.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hik-TeGQIn0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YDrVRqmrLY&feature=related

kbaily

His only flaw was that whole comment section, fans....no, you fans didn't hear that. What comment section? I've never even heard of that before.

But his ideas are all good, keep it simple, add some story but not too much story to turn into Final Fantasy Sonic again.

[QUOTE="Cloud_765"]Sonic should just be a platformer, to answer the altered title. A speedy platformer. There is no need for anything else.dalejrgamer

This

Agreed. This is basically what it should be.

I couldn't agree anymore.

His only flaw was that whole comment section [...]Soniczero1993

Youtube is useful sometimes.macrules_640

I guess. But people usually post retarded stuff over there and people post more retarded comments in ALL videos.

[QUOTE="macrules_640"]Youtube is useful sometimes.dalejrgamer

I guess. But people usually post retarded stuff over there and people post more retarded comments in ALL videos.

Agreed. I often read comments while waiting for it to load (sometimes it took rather long)