What truely ended the Dreamcast???

I posted this over at The Sega Union but apparently its dead there. I know this is a general Sega article not specifically related to Sonic but it could be related to Sonic as the end of the Dreamcast put Sonic out of a home and made the blue blur just another franchise instead of a proud mascot! I'm also thinking of turning this into my second Blog...

I have been all over the internet reading many articles on the demise of the Dreamcast and watching all the theorists on YouTube. The problem with these articles and videos is that so many of them contradict each other and although they are based on what seems to be "reliable evidence" but the problem is that non of the theories makes full sense. Here are the common points I have heard and my opinions of those points from my own perspective and research:

1- Poor launch in Japan: Now I did not have access to many articles or media during the launch but from what I remember I used to see in magazines that they even had adds all over the inside and outside of subway stations so I highly doubt this point because I don't see how SEGA could mess up the launch when their future depended on it.

2- Dreamcast's lack of a DVD player: Lets be honest here DVD movies were not that popular in 1998 as the medium was just starting to take off and was too expensive for people to be using it regularly. Sure, the DVD capacity helped the PS2 in the beginning but that's because the PS2 was the one with a horrible launch line up.

3- the ability to copy the games thus the availabilty of pirated copies: OH how WRONG people are with that one! It is amazing how you people have been brainwashed to believe that piracy can actually destroy a system! Well let me set the record straight: Since the start of the optical format (CD, DVD) ALL consoles had pirated games! In fact the reason WHY the PS sold so much is during that generation of consoles it was the only one with pirated games (N64 was cartridge based and Saturn well it was dead before they could start copying) I hope I don't get flamed for this but before the PS3 (blu-ray has yet to be pirated) I did not buy a single original game save for the ones that were actually worth it! Even now the Wii and 360 are doing great despite them having pirated games available from day one. So this argument is complete bs.

4- Lack of support from 3rd parties namely EA: I don't know about this one but from my collection of DC games I can see that only EA, Square and Konami(correct me about this one) were the big misses on DC. It was like christmas every month for Capcom fans, Namco released what is arguably the best 3D fighter in existence, Sega had their companies working on overdrive developing great game after great game and the 2k series had shamed EA in every American sports game there is! Apart from a decent football(soccer for the american readers) game sports were definitly there. The Amount of quality games on the DC was incredible for its short lifespan! So this point is highly Arguable.

5- Bernie Stoler: Why I have an entire point dedicated to him is because I have not seen a more contradictory point on this issue then Bernie Stoler! Some people praise him as the innovator of the DC's early success, others damn the day he was born! I cannot put my finger on this one! I hated what he did to the Saturn but I sure saw him back the DC with all his might so I really can't tell!

6- Sega of Japan VS Sega of America: Blaming one side over the other for the failure is very common in the articles but I think both sides are equally to blame. The fact that these two companies should have been working together instead of competing against each other is in my opinion the reason for the whole demise of SEGA in general. From what I read the biggest mistake though has to be the firing of Mr. Kalinske as from what I read at least, this man had great vision and an amazing approach to everything he did with SEGA. It was his decision to put Sonic with the Mega Drive (Genesis) Bundle that turned me into the Sega fan and Sonic fan that I am right now and probably helped SEGA be a forefront authority in the gaming industry. Of course that doesn't mean he was flawless as his decision to make the 32X was, well you know what happened with that one! I still daydream on the possibilities of what would have been if SoJ had accepted Sony's, Silicon Graphic's or Microsoft's proposals!! 

Well I'd love to hear what you all have to say about this and my points! Please guys lets keep this civil ok?  

I was reading the history of video game consoles on Wikipedia (all 8 parts, including the vid crash of 83) and I have to agree with that article (the Wiki) that Dreamcast died because of the failure that the Saturn was. The only 2 Sonic games on it were par at best, and there wasn't any real good game for it.

Then you have the other failures of the CD and 32X. They sold poorly and didn't have any real support. That leads up to consumers speculated whether the Dreamcast would be worth it. It came packed in with Sonic Adventure at one point to help sales, but it didnt help enough. And finally the hype around the PS2 lead potential constumers for Dreamcast away. You see, Sony and Sega seemed to have similar consumer appeals in the 90s, and it turns out Sega didn't get people on board as well as Sony did. Then Microsoft announced they had a console on the way and Nintendo had its console ready to be unleashed, Sega had too much competition and not enough support.

When Sonic Adventure 2 came around, Sega knew the Dreamcast still couldn't be saved. Shenmue II was over, and Sonic can't sell a Sega system like Mario can sell a Nintendo system. It was really a systematic death that Sega themselves ended up doing.

Yup. What Chocolate said. And it was Sega's own doing that started it. It could've been better had it not been for the Saturn and 32X getting in the way. Sega.... why....

The Genesis was definitley the best and in this part of the world it beat the Super Nintendo by a mile. I loved the Saturn but lets face it in front of the Playstation and N64 it had no hope! With all the games that defined the Genesis virtually non existent on the Saturn even I a Worshipper of anything Sega had to jump ship to the Playstation. But, when the Dreamcast came out I was behind it 100% and I really remember going through a depression when they decided to kill it! I got the PS2 and never enjoyed it in fact I lost all intrest in gaming thanks to the horrible launch games and general mediocrity of most of the games on it!

but...but...the saturn is the best system SEGA ever made.whoozwah

Let's get one thing straight you die hard Sega fans...the Saturn was a f---ing mess! You don't hear me defending the Virtual Boy and I'll even admit that the Gamecube was crap. It had good games, but third party support sucked mainly because Nintendo didn't have the good sense pursue online play with it. But back to the Saturn. Let's look at everything the Saturn screwed up because that has a lot to do with the Dreamcast failing.

First of all it was originally going to be a "suped up 2D machine" like the Sega CD or 32x but then when the Playstation showed off its specs, Sega rushed to revamp the machine to support 3D graphics making it a hard console to design games for.

Then there was the brilliant idea Sega had to release the system in July...without telling anyone! Many rank the Saturn launch as the worst launch of a console ever. When the Saturn launched, the only games available were Sega first party games so the third party publishers were dumbstruck because they thought they had until the Christmas holiday to get their Saturn launch titles ready and some stores were unaware of this sudden change and many didn't have the console in the store. Stupid.

Then you had Bernie Stoler who thought that there wasn't a market for RPGs in the US and turned down Square's request to make FFVII on the Saturn. Remember Square didn't like that Nintendo was sticking with cartridges. They wanted discs to make a massive FF game with a deeper backstory and they were turned down and went to the Playstation and we all know what a big hit FFVII became and helped launch the populairty of JRPGs into the mainstream. God knows all the great Saturn RPGs that never made it stateside.

Then of course there was lack of a true Sonic game on the Saturn. Sonic 3D Blast was crap and was available for the Genesis already. Sonic R was a shallow race game (see my review at the official site) and Sonic Jam was a compilation with a small 3D hub world. Sonic Xtreme never saw the light of day because Naka was too enthralled with making NiGHTS. Not that NiGHTS wasn't great but people expected to see Sonic's big 3D debut and it never happened. Remember, 2 games were instrumental in the Genesis's success. Sonic and the fact that Sega had the bloody Mortal Kombat. There was also the fact that not a lot of Genesis staples made the jump to the Saturn. Where were the 3D Vectorman, Toejam and Ear and Strider? Not that new IPs aren't great but you have to keep the good established franchises alive and kicking to bring fans back.

And there was the fact that the Saturn was more expensive than the Playstation. Funny how the PS1 prided itself on being the cheapest console, and now the PS3 is the most expensive console and in last place.

And of course the fact that Bernie Stohler decided to totally abandon the Saturn and move on to the Dreamcast and there was that period where Sega wasn't making anything. The Dreamcast hadn't come out yet and the Saturn was dead. Gamers got fed up and moved on to the N64 and PS1. By the time the Dreamcast came out, it was too little, too late.

The Dreamcast failure came from years of bad business decisions on Sega and them pumping too much money into crappy hardware no one bought.

Let's get one thing straight you die hard Sega fans...the Saturn was a f---ing mess! You don't hear me defending the Virtual Boy and I'll even admit that the Gamecube was crap.

kbaily

:shock: Whoozwah, you defend the Saturn, while I back up the ol' Cube. Whenever you're ready. ;)

(BTW, nice rant, Crimson!) :)

why the Saturn is the best SEGA system:

Astal
Bastugun
Battle Garegga
Bug!
Burning Rangers
Clockwork Knight
Daytona USA
Die Hard Arcade
Dragon Force
DonPachi
DoDonPachi
Fatal Fury 3
Guardian Heroes
Gunbird
The House of the Dead
King of Fighters 95-97
Marvel Super Heroes
Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter
NiGHTS into Dreams
Panzer Dragoon
Panzer Dragoon Zwei
Panzer Dragoon Saga
Radiant Silvergun
Rayman
Samurai Shodown series
Saturn Bomberman
Sega Rally Championship
Shining Force III
Street Fighter Alpha series
Virtua Cop series
Virtua Fighter series
Virtual On
X-Men vs. Street Fighter
X-Men: Children of the Atom

Any games in this list that are multi-platform were listed because they were superior on the Saturn, ESPECIALLY in the case of the fighting games, most of which took advantage of the cart slot for added video memory. On other systems (mainly the playstation) animations were horrible because the limited video memory of the systems required them to drop frames. Not so with the Saturn and the memory cart that came with the games.

The Saturn library is unmatched to this day in regards to choice 2D fighters and shooters, especially if you have the capability of importing. 

Yeah, there's not a 'proper' Sonic game on the system. That doesn't stop it from totally dominating. 

there were some truly awesome games on the Saturn. The lack of a Sonic game to me doesn't detract from the awesomeness that is the Saturn lineup. I am happy with the Sonic titles on the Genesis and to a lesser extent, the Dreamcast.

imo, what would have been cool is if the SEGA CD never happened and Sonic CD was released for Saturn, only taking advantage of the Saturn's higher specs. Having a souped up 2D Sonic game on the Saturn would have been pretty awesome, moreso than any of that jank footage I've seen of Sonic Extreme anyways.

the dreamcast would have been much much better had it kept going.

I read somewhere that 

Virtua Fighter 4
Panzer Dragoon Orta
Sonic Heroes
Jet Set Radio Future
Yakuza
and a bunch of other stuff was set to be released on Dreamcast before it went out.

What? Sonic Heroes was supposed to be a Dreamcast game? LINK PLEASE!Cloud_765

Well it might just be a rumor but still it doesn't seem that out of wack. It's hard to say what post Dreamcast games might have been had it not failed. I think the majority here think that Heroes was a halfway decent Sonic game despite making you play through the same game four times.

I know. Because of what happened with the Dreamcast, I never got a chance to get one.Cloud_765

keep an eye on this page.

Apparently they're virgins and this is legit...apparently

[QUOTE="Cloud_765"]I know. Because of what happened with the Dreamcast, I never got a chance to get one.whoozwah

keep an eye on this page.

Apparently they're virgins and this is legit...apparently

Also appearantly, Sonic delivered them. :lol:

[QUOTE="whoozwah"]

[QUOTE="Cloud_765"]I know. Because of what happened with the Dreamcast, I never got a chance to get one.Cloud_765

keep an eye on this page.

Apparently they're virgins and this is legit...apparently

Also appearantly, Sonic delivered them. :lol:

I'm missing something here aren't I?? :P I just read through the description, and did anyone notice in the description box on the right that everything is available except the Dreamcast console??? 

that's why I said "keep an eye on it". I saw that they were out of stock but you might keep checking back to see if they'll get more of them.

I was given Soul Calibur :)

 I think I've got almost every game on the Dreamcast that I could want. I definitely have the essentials like:

Crazy Taxi
Ecco the Dolphin
Jet Grind Radio
Sonic Adventure
Sonic Adventure 2
Soul Calibur
Space Channel 5

I've also got Expendable (coop shooter a la Die Hard Arcade. Campy fun and it came with the system)

I only really want to add Hydro Thunder (arcade boat racer) and Marvel vs. Capcom 2 (will get it when the port is released on xbla and psn and the resell value drops off) and I'll be totally happy with my Dreamcast collection.

Let's get one thing straight you die hard Sega fans...the Saturn was a f---ing mess! You don't hear me defending the Virtual Boy and I'll even admit that the Gamecube was crap. It had good games, but third party support sucked mainly because Nintendo didn't have the good sense pursue online play with it. But back to the Saturn. Let's look at everything the Saturn screwed up because that has a lot to do with the Dreamcast failing.

First of all it was originally going to be a "suped up 2D machine" like the Sega CD or 32x but then when the Playstation showed off its specs, Sega rushed to revamp the machine to support 3D graphics making it a hard console to design games for.

kbaily

As much as it was Sega's fault that the Saturn bombed, you can't blame them for wanting to keep up with their competitors and it's not as if this simply came about all of a sudden. Many Sega's most successful new arcade games, Virtua Fighter, Daytona and Sega Rally were innovations in 3D gaming. It would have been inconceivable for Sega not to take advantage of their success in that area. With all of that considered, the Saturn still actually had some very good 3D hardware for its time. Would we have seen Panzer Dragoon, Nights or those grogeous ports of Sega Rally and VF2 on a 2D Saturn? I didn't think so.

Then there was the brilliant idea Sega had to release the system in July...without telling anyone! Many rank the Saturn launch as the worst launch of a console ever. When the Saturn launched, the only games available were Sega first party games so the third party publishers were dumbstruck because they thought they had until the Christmas holiday to get their Saturn launch titles ready and some stores were unaware of this sudden change and many didn't have the console in the store. Stupid.

Then you had Bernie Stoler who thought that there wasn't a market for RPGs in the US and turned down Square's request to make FFVII on the Saturn. Remember Square didn't like that Nintendo was sticking with cartridges. They wanted discs to make a massive FF game with a deeper backstory and they were turned down and went to the Playstation and we all know what a big hit FFVII became and helped launch the populairty of JRPGs into the mainstream. God knows all the great Saturn RPGs that never made it stateside.

kbaily

Square never approached Sega about putting FFVII on the Saturn. I don't know where you got this "information" from.

Then of course there was lack of a true Sonic game on the Saturn. Sonic 3D Blast was crap and was available for the Genesis already.

kbaily

I am no fan of 3D Blast, but the Saturn version ran circles around the Mega Drive version with its graphics and the 3D special stage.

Sonic R was a shallow race game (see my review at the official site) and Sonic Jam was a compilation with a small 3D hub world. Sonic Xtreme never saw the light of day because Naka was too enthralled with making NiGHTS. Not that NiGHTS wasn't great but people expected to see Sonic's big 3D debut and it never happened. Remember, 2 games were instrumental in the Genesis's success. Sonic and the fact that Sega had the bloody Mortal Kombat. There was also the fact that not a lot of Genesis staples made the jump to the Saturn. Where were the 3D Vectorman, Toejam and Ear and Strider? Not that new IPs aren't great but you have to keep the good established franchises alive and kicking to bring fans back.

kbaily

This a complaint that I just can't seem to process. Sega have never been and never will be Nintendo. Why hold it against Naka or anybody else from Sega's creative ranks for wanting to shift their focus onto new IP's? Not many of those games you mention had a great deal of lasting appeal. It's easy to make glib statements about how more familiar faces from the Mega Drive era would have salvaged the system, but as you correctly noted, the damage had already been done by the Saturn's disastrous launch and the brutal reality of it was that gamers were moving on. This of course didn't change the fact that other, better Sega franchises such as Shining Force and Landstalker were still going strongon the Saturn in the form of Shining Force III, Shining the Holy Ark and Dark Saviour.

Your assuption that it was Sonic and Mortal Kombat alone that made the Mega Drive is also incorrect. The third party support which the Mega Drive garnered was second to none, with EA and their sports games being its biggest cash cow. The Saturn, contrary to popular belief also had a rich array of third party support in Japan.

And there was the fact that the Saturn was more expensive than the Playstation. Funny how the PS1 prided itself on being the cheapest console, and now the PS3 is the most expensive console and in last place.

And of course the fact that Bernie Stohler decided to totally abandon the Saturn and move on to the Dreamcast and there was that period where Sega wasn't making anything. The Dreamcast hadn't come out yet and the Saturn was dead. Gamers got fed up and moved on to the N64 and PS1. By the time the Dreamcast came out, it was too little, too late.

kbaily

It's easy simplify what happened, but the Saturn didn't die because of the lack of software from Sega in its latter days. Sega were unable to support the Saturn any longer when Stolar declared "the Saturn is not our future". To blame the Saturn itself for the Dreamcast arriving too early (and bear in mind that the Saturn was discontinued in Japan a year after the Dreamcast was released there) is absurd and to accuse Sega of taking some sort of long hiatus in the late 90's when in fact games like Burning Rangers and Panzer Dragoon were still being released for the Saturn in 1998 is frankly risible.

The Dreamcast failure came from years of bad business decisions on Sega and them pumping too much money into crappy hardware no one bought.

kbaily

The failure of the Saturn and Dreamcast are not as dissimilar as you think. The Dreamcast enjoyed the most successful US launch in history at the time and we may assume the it had all the makings of a resounding success if we take away other variables such as the market's diminished brand loyalty to Sega and Sony's aggressive hype machine. But the system was as much a failure of marketing as the Saturn was and marketing had never been one of Sega's strong points since Tom Kalinske, stepped down as Sega of America's chairman towards the end of the Mega Drive era. The average Sega loyalist such as myself knew the Dreamcast as a great system, but how does Joe Public when he never sees a TV commercial or even hears about the system. Neither the Saturn or Dreamcast were given the PR that they deserved.

Aww, you ranted and quoted kbaily the whole time? Was nothing I posted rantworthy? :P

It's okay, I said my fill in the favorite game thread.

I know. Because of what happened with the Dreamcast, I never got a chance to get one.Cloud_765

I still have my Dreamcast. I LAUGH AT YOUR MISERY!!!!

[QUOTE="Cloud_765"]I know. Because of what happened with the Dreamcast, I never got a chance to get one.Soniczero1993

I still have my Dreamcast. I LAUGH AT YOUR MISERY!!!!

I do too. I've had to fix mine once but it was fairly easy and it's worked great since then.

I'm pretty certain the #1 dreamcast killer was the lack of DVD support. Rather, the killer was the fact that the PS2 supported DVD. It was a huge market that the PS2 basically controlled in Japan, bringing sales of the dreamcast to a screeching halt upon its release. ABOVE INFORMATION STOLEN FROM VARIOUS ARTICLES ON WIKIPEDIAsonicphc

You must have read the article "History of Video Game Consoles". I read these articles also. STALKER!!! :P