Carlisle : Dirk is top 10 all-time. Do you agree?

I will say obviously not. He has a solid resumé (A truckload of All-Star games, steady offensive production, 50-wins seasons, being a 7-foot sweet shooting german) for a Hall of Famer, that's not even up for debate.

But in my personal top 10, most of the players have at least 3 championships and have been MVPs more than once. Dirk has one Finals appearance, a historic playoffs meltdown in '07 and a highly debated MVP award (Nash deserved it a lot more even if he won back-to-back questionable MVPs) in which Dirk averaged 24.6 and 8.9, numbers which have been topped 130 times in NBA history, three times by the man himself.

I would place Dirk in the high 30s. If he does win this year, which is very possible, that moves him to the mid 20s on my all-time list.

What say you?

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2011/05/09/dirk-top-10-all-time/

Sure, you can argue that.

Seriously, go compare his numbers to Larry Bird.

Seriously, go compare his numbers to Larry Bird.

TaCoDuDe

I was going to say the same thing. If you put Dirk on those Celtics teams instead of Bird they probably would have won just as many titles because the rest of that team was pretty stacked.

That said...I don't think Bird is a top 10 player of all-time so I don't think Dirk is either.

God no

He's nothing compared to Baylor or Hayes or Moses or Duncan or Robinson or Russel or Olajuwon or Wilt or Kareem and those are just the big men I can think of right now.

So there's 9 players and I haven't even started on Michael or Magic or Stockton or West

There's no way he's a top ten player all time, there's no argument for it

doesn't matter where he's at on the ranking list - he's one hell of a player and that's all everyone needs to know.

doesn't matter where he's at on the ranking list - he's one hell of a player and that's all everyone needs to know.

Jinroh_basic

That's fine in a "both teams get as many at bats and no one keeps score because you're all special" way but this is professional sports where every single action is documented and measured and everyone wants to be the very best.

I bet Dirk never said "I don't want to be the best I just want to be one heck of a player" and if he did that's why he's not in the top ten.

I'd say top-10 most difficult individual matchup, for what it's worth.

I'd say top-10 most difficult individual matchup, for what it's worth.

Oleg_Huzwog

Difficult matchup? Yes of course, one of the toughest in the NBA today. But just put a determined athletic freak who likes to get physical in front of him and, voilà, you can limit him to under 40% shooting. Case in point : Stephen Jackson, 2007 playoffs.

You can't judge a whole career on a single series. But until he wins a championship, that's all I remember him for.

nah...he is nothing but a jump shooter...you double him and he is nothing.

nah...he is nothing but a jump shooter...you double him and he is nothing.

KBFloYd

[QUOTE="KBFloYd"]

nah...he is nothing but a jump shooter...you double him and he is nothing.

No_Hablo_Ingles

post moves? you mean the fade away jump shot, or the fade away jump shot, or the fade away jump shot?

[QUOTE="No_Hablo_Ingles"][QUOTE="KBFloYd"]

nah...he is nothing but a jump shooter...you double him and he is nothing.

KBFloYd

post moves? you mean the fade away jump shot, or the fade away jump shot, or the fade away jump shot?

why is everyone forgeting to talk about shaq in the hall of fame

Best international player? Probably. All time overall? Heeel naw. Sure he's good and unique, but has he won any championships? He's proven in previous years that he can barely get to the semifinals, and even when he finally got to the big game, he collapsed and lost 4 in a row.

[QUOTE="Jinroh_basic"]

doesn't matter where he's at on the ranking list - he's one hell of a player and that's all everyone needs to know.

Jaysonguy

That's fine in a "both teams get as many at bats and no one keeps score because you're all special" way but this is professional sports where every single action is documented and measured and everyone wants to be the very best.

I bet Dirk never said "I don't want to be the best I just want to be one heck of a player" and if he did that's why he's not in the top ten.

never said anything about Dirk not wanting to be the best he can be. the point is, all this talk about top 10/30/50 is just pointless bs. where're the league's "top closer", "top center", "top 6th man" and "top coach" now? second fiddles like Peja, Terry and Barea sent them packing for an early summer/reality check/franchise overhaul in one of the biggest blowout losses in NBA's history. fame sure did them a world of good, didn't it?

moral of the story? stop worrying about who's top what. the boxscore and the result are what matters.

Best international player? Probably. All time overall? Heeel naw. Sure he's good and unique, but has he won any championships? He's proven in previous years that he can barely get to the semifinals, and even when he finally got to the big game, he collapsed and lost 4 in a row.

GrodyBean

Dirk career playoff stats: 25.5 PPG, 11 RPG, 87.9% free throws, 36.7% three-pointers

Kobe career playoff stats: 25.0 PPG, 5.1 RPG, 81.1% free throws, 32.9% three-pointers

Dirk has been historically excellent in the playoffs. A team's playoff success is not entirerly dependant on one player's performance. T

Yes

1. Larry Bird
2. Jerry West
3. Bob Pettit
4. John Stockton
5. Kevin McHale
6. George Mikan
7. Dirk
8. Steve Nash
9. Pistol Pete
10. Manu Ginobli
11. Bob Cousy

Honorable mentions- Chris Mullin , Mike Jordan , Rick Barry , Mark Eaton.

What irritates me most when people list all time great players when they start adding Russels, Hayes, **** whom they never seen play and in a league filled with 6'8 centers that could barely jump. I am not taking nothing away from Russell or Robertson or Chamberlain, but the stats they put up would not look anything like that if they played today. I mean can you honestly see Russell stopping Olajuwon or Shaq or even Ewing. I think NBA went through a dramatic talent and physical prowess during the mid 80's, would Wilt be good today I say yes he would probably be a 15 10 guy something along the lines of Andrew Bynum.

To get back on topic I dont think Dirk is a top ten player ever, I think Dirk ranks around 15-25 just based on his insane offensive game, if he was a decent defender he could eventually be a top ten player. But as a offensive player he is maybe in top 5 ever as nobody has yet to stop him and his shot is Kareem like unstopable. Dirk on the other hand is a mediocre defender so thats why he drops to 15-25

Yes

1. Larry Bird
2. Jerry West
3. Bob Pettit
4. John Stockton
5. Kevin McHale
6. George Mikan
7. Dirk
8. Steve Nash
9. Pistol Pete
10. Manu Ginobli
11. Bob Cousy

Honorable mentions- Chris Mullin , Mike Jordan , Rick Barry , Mark Eaton.

Nike_Air

This is the weirdest list.

What irritates me most when people list all time great players when they start adding Russels, Hayes, **** whom they never seen play and in a league filled with 6'8 centers that could barely jump. I am not taking nothing away from Russell or Robertson or Chamberlain, but the stats they put up would not look anything like that if they played today. I mean can you honestly see Russell stopping Olajuwon or Shaq or even Ewing. I think NBA went through a dramatic talent and physical prowess during the mid 80's, would Wilt be good today I say yes he would probably be a 15 10 guy something along the lines of Andrew Bynum.

deniiiii21

Completely agree. I've seen videos of George Mikan and from what I could tell he'd get his **** rocked in today's NBA.

[QUOTE="Nike_Air"]

Yes

1. Larry Bird
2. Jerry West
3. Bob Pettit
4. John Stockton
5. Kevin McHale
6. George Mikan
7. Dirk
8. Steve Nash
9. Pistol Pete
10. Manu Ginobli
11. Bob Cousy

Honorable mentions- Chris Mullin , Mike Jordan , Rick Barry , Mark Eaton.

JML897

This is the weirdest list.

Whitest list.

[QUOTE="JML897"]

[QUOTE="Nike_Air"]

Yes

1. Larry Bird
2. Jerry West
3. Bob Pettit
4. John Stockton
5. Kevin McHale
6. George Mikan
7. Dirk
8. Steve Nash
9. Pistol Pete
10. Manu Ginobli
11. Bob Cousy

Honorable mentions- Chris Mullin , Mike Jordan , Rick Barry , Mark Eaton.

Oleg_Huzwog

This is the weirdest list.

Whitest list.

Now it makes sense, didn't notice that.

He still had to include MJ though :lol:

1. Larry Bird
2. Jerry West
3. Bob Pettit
4. John Stockton
5. Kevin McHale
6. George Mikan
7. Dirk
8. Steve Nash
9. Pistol Pete
10. Manu Ginobli
11. Bob Cousy

Nike_Air

What irritates me most when people list all time great players when they start adding Russels, Hayes, **** whom they never seen play and in a league filled with 6'8 centers that could barely jump. I am not taking nothing away from Russell or Robertson or Chamberlain, but the stats they put up would not look anything like that if they played today. I mean can you honestly see Russell stopping Olajuwon or Shaq or even Ewing. I think NBA went through a dramatic talent and physical prowess during the mid 80's, would Wilt be good today I say yes he would probably be a 15 10 guy something along the lines of Andrew Bynum.deniiiii21

It's the same thing with video games, you can't actually compare Sonic 2 with Mass Effect 2, different eras, different technologies, etc.

What irritates me most when people list all time great players when they start adding Russels, Hayes, **** whom they never seen play and in a league filled with 6'8 centers that could barely jump. I am not taking nothing away from Russell or Robertson or Chamberlain, but the stats they put up would not look anything like that if they played today. I mean can you honestly see Russell stopping Olajuwon or Shaq or even Ewing. I think NBA went through a dramatic talent and physical prowess during the mid 80's, would Wilt be good today I say yes he would probably be a 15 10 guy something along the lines of Andrew Bynum.

deniiiii21

1. Anyone has access to things like ESPNClassic so there's no reason not to watch the older players play, there's no shortage of film on those players.

2. The greats of the past would be even better today because they'd have the training of today's athlete. You give a Russel or Wilt or Hayes who spent their entire careers in the dark ages when it comes to training and give them what today's athletes have from age 8 forward? They'd all have more muscle, quicker first steps, and more endurance.

Difficult matchup? Yes of course, one of the toughest in the NBA today. But just put a determined athletic freak who likes to get physical in front of him and, voilà, you can limit him to under 40% shooting. Case in point : Stephen Jackson, 2007 playoffs.

You can't judge a whole career on a single series. But until he wins a championship, that's all I remember him for.

BaraChat

Dirk is a mucyh different player than in 2007. You can't play him the way Jackson did in the '07 playoffs anymore, hes gotten more physical and wont allow you to front him.

That being said I think top 10 all time is a stretch. I'd safely put him around the 20 range. In terms of just pure offensive talent he might be scratching top 10 there.

And to the fool that said Bird isnt top 10, do me a fazor and go back and watch vintage Bird in 86-88 and tell me he's not a top 10 player.

No, I wouldn't agree. Sheesh. Guy hasn't ever won a single title and for most of his career has been a liability on the defensive end. I think it is possible to view Dirk as hugely underrated (as I do) and still not consider him to be a top-10 all time player. Seriously...which of these ten players would you rate Dirk ahead of? (In no particular order) Michael Jordan Wilt Chamberlain Bill Russell Oscar Robertson Elgin Baylor Larry Bird Magic Johnson Jerry West Kobe Bryant Shaquille O'Neal Tim Duncan Scottie Pippen Hakeen Olajuwan Julius Erving Karl Malone Isaiah Thomas John Stockton Kevin McHale I could go on. But you get the drift. But the point is that even if you could pick a few players off the list to rate him ahead of (such as Karl Malone or Kevin McHale for example) putting him TOP TEN is a stretch.nocoolnamejim

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"]No, I wouldn't agree. Sheesh. Guy hasn't ever won a single title and for most of his career has been a liability on the defensive end. I think it is possible to view Dirk as hugely underrated (as I do) and still not consider him to be a top-10 all time player. Seriously...which of these ten players would you rate Dirk ahead of? (In no particular order) Michael Jordan Wilt Chamberlain Bill Russell Oscar Robertson Elgin Baylor Larry Bird Magic Johnson Jerry West Kobe Bryant Shaquille O'Neal Tim Duncan Scottie Pippen Hakeen Olajuwan Julius Erving Karl Malone Isaiah Thomas John Stockton Kevin McHale I could go on. But you get the drift. But the point is that even if you could pick a few players off the list to rate him ahead of (such as Karl Malone or Kevin McHale for example) putting him TOP TEN is a stretch.PSP107

with that logic of Dirk not being a defensive guy, then why is Melo considered the top player in the league when he doesn't play defense?PSP107

Who in the world considers Carmelo Anthony the top player in the league?

Nope.

Even if he wins a ring he is not top 10.

My top 10:

1. Magic Johnson

2. Larry Bird

3. Michael Jordan

4. Shaq

5. Moses Malone

6. Bill Russell (for his time)

7. Tim Duncan

8. Oscar Robertson

9. Dr. J

10. Hakeem Olajuwan

[QUOTE="PSP107"] with that logic of Dirk not being a defensive guy, then why is Melo considered the top player in the league when he doesn't play defense?Oleg_Huzwog

Who in the world considers Carmelo Anthony the top player in the league?

Nope, too many great in there, (allen iverson, MJ, LBJ, KOBE, SHAQ, WILT, MAGIC, Wade, Dhoward, KG, tons and tons...I list him in top 30.

[QUOTE="Oleg_Huzwog"]

[QUOTE="PSP107"] with that logic of Dirk not being a defensive guy, then why is Melo considered the top player in the league when he doesn't play defense?PSP107

Who in the world considers Carmelo Anthony the top player in the league?

You said "the" which implies #1.

I'm not sure who considers Carmelo to be a top 5 player or who would take him in the top 5 in a draft. That would be a bad pick.

[QUOTE="PSP107"]@JML897 "You said "the" which implies #1." what?No_Hablo_Ingles

[QUOTE="No_Hablo_Ingles"][QUOTE="PSP107"]@JML897 "You said "the" which implies #1." what?PSP107

Well tough **** for the old timers. You put Olajuwon against Russel or Chamberlein it wont even be a contest sorry to say. See thats the thing if you put players from 1985 and throughout 90's with todays players. They would hold their own no problem. If you put unathletic semi-decent center from 60 and 70's he probably wouldnt even make NBDL today. We judge best of the best tough luck for those that played in that era. Sorry Bill Russell you dominated 6'6 guys and grabbed 20 boards a game, in todays league you are the 12th man either playing PF or SF.

1. Jordan

2. Magic

3. Olajuwon

4. Kareem

5. Shaq

6. Duncan

7. Bird

8. Bryant

9. Malone

10. Pippen: this might be controversial but he is arguably the best defender ever at the wing. Can guard 1-5 and his all around game.