Where is Kobe in your top players of all-time?

Now you all have either heard or read it, Jordan says Kobe is in his top 10 guards of all-time. Kobe, not too rattled, responded that the statement is accurate, since top 10 could mean top 5, top 3 or even top 1. Source : http://blogs.thescore.com/tbj/2010/10/18/kobe-isnt-mad-at-jordan-because-of-math/

So we can all agree that Jordan is just not ready to give his due to a player of his caliber or really close to. Most experts/journalists would agree now that Kobe is either 1b, 2 or 3 on the all-time best guards list. (I consider him to be no. 2, most likely 1b by the end of his career).

Now I want to know, where would you put him on the All-Time best players list, all positions?

To give you an idea, most people's top 13 would look something like that (this one is taken from the Book of Basketball, and I do not necessarily agree with it) :

1. Michael Jordan

2. Bill Russell

3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar

4. Magic Johnson

5. Larry Bird

6. Wilt Chamberlain

7. Tim Duncan

8. Jerry West

9. Oscar Robertson

10. Moses Malone

11. Hakeem Olajuwon

12. Shaquille O'neal

13. John Havlicek

(Kobe was 15th before his 4th championship, winning the 4th have bumped him to 8th, always according to Bill Simmons, who hates Kobe).

So, all of you, please raise your voice and tell me what you think. Try to be mature and not place Kobe like 56th because you love the Celtics or LeBron James or something. Hate him or love him, I think it's impossible to exclude him from the top 10, but I'll still give you the option.

I say Fourth, behind MJ, Bill and Kareem (I agree with Bill Simmons' top 3).

What say you?

Hmm...Im a die hard Kobe and Laker fan, so although I'm a bit biased, I'd put him in the top 5 right now, and once all is said and done, hopefully, Top 3 :)

Top 3 and better than Jordan simply because Jordan played in an era where Kobe could've averaged 40+ PPG easy.

Top 3 and better than Jordan simply because Jordan played in an era where Kobe could've averaged 40+ PPG easy.

qwertywater

Since I'm tired of that particular subject, I won't argue with you, but I do not agree with you one bit. I thought Jordan's era was as hard to play in if not harder than today's NBA.

[QUOTE="qwertywater"]

Top 3 and better than Jordan simply because Jordan played in an era where Kobe could've averaged 40+ PPG easy.

BaraChat

Since I'm tired of that particular subject, I won't argue with you, but I do not agree with you one bit. I thought Jordan's era was as hard to play in if not harder than today's NBA.

Uh oh, you may not like my new thread!:)

Top 3 and better than Jordan simply because Jordan played in an era where Kobe could've averaged 40+ PPG easy.

qwertywater

[QUOTE="qwertywater"]

Top 3 and better than Jordan simply because Jordan played in an era where Kobe could've averaged 40+ PPG easy.

silky_smooth8

Don't know, really hard to say.

[QUOTE="silky_smooth8"][QUOTE="qwertywater"]

Top 3 and better than Jordan simply because Jordan played in an era where Kobe could've averaged 40+ PPG easy.

BaraChat

No it wont. Six finals MVP trumps all.

As for the previous poster who said Kobe would score more back in the Jordan era........lol. Kobe gets a call if he gets looked at the wrong way, back then you had to work for your points. Kobe should thank MJ every day that because of his star power refs protect players so much today.

MJ played when hand checking was still allowed and there was no three second violation. SO when he drove there were 5 people just sitting in the paint, and hacking him and he still would score.

Repeat after me

Kobe Bryant will never be better then Michael Jordan or equal to.

Also losing in the finals is the only thing Kobe has on MJ. You think MJ would have lost against the Pistons in such a disgraceful way? How about getting completely blown out by the Celtics and losing a 20+ point lead? Its a team effort yes, but the GOAT's will their teams to win when they have to. Kobe is elite, but MJ is on the next level.

Look its obvious Kobe is the next best player ever next to MJ.

1. Michael Jordan

2. Kobe Bryant

Simple as that. End of argument.

• Jordan
• Wilt
• Kareem
• Russell
• Bird
• Magic
• Oscar
• Kobe
• West
• Hakeem

Top 10 (8-10 range for now).

top 5 easily. If we're talking about strictly guards the only one thats better than Kobe is MJ.-Halftime-

Top 3 and can still move up.

[QUOTE="-Halftime-"]top 5 easily. If we're talking about strictly guards the only one thats better than Kobe is MJ.Lostboy1224

I think they should make one

As far as "Greatness" (but this is really hard, waaay too much to oconsider):

1) Jabbar/Russell

2) Wilt/Jordan

3) Magic

4) Bird/Kobe

5) Oscar

But as far as 2 guards go, I'd put Kobe = with MJ.......yeah I said it! I already had Kobe as a better offensive player than Jordan but behind him in defense. But some of you have finally convinced me on what a GREAT ADVANTAGE "hand-checking" is. So I'm sure if Kobe could hand check on defense he would be as good as MJ was.

Yo, sixringz, ready for the continuation of the "Laker Reign of Terror!", aka NBA season?

You're the first person I've ever seen put somebody before MJ. While I do not agree with you, you could make very strong arguments for each :

Bill (11 championships in 13 seasons, supreme defense and rebounding skills, 5 MVPs, 12 All-Stars ultimate team player, etc.)

Kareem (6 MVPs, 6 Championships, extreme longevity (19-time All-Star, 10 All-NBA first team between '71 and '86, Finals MVP in '71 and '85, etc), 38 387 points, 1560 games, sky hook, etc.). As much as Kareem's career in number is mind-boggling, I still feel he's kinda overlooked sometimes.

And I wouldn't say that Kobe is a better offensive player than MJ simply because MJ was a much better passer and overall better team player. Kobe is a better scorer though.

As far as "Greatness" (but this is really hard, waaay too much to oconsider):

1) Jabbar/Russell

2) Wilt/Jordan

3) Magic

4) Bird/Kobe

5) Oscar

But as far as 2 guards go, I'd put Kobe = with MJ.......yeah I said it! I already had Kobe as a better offensive player than Jordan but behind him in defense. But some of you have finally convinced me on what a GREAT ADVANTAGE "hand-checking" is. So I'm sure if Kobe could hand check on defense he would be as good as MJ was.

Yo, sixringz, ready for the continuation of the "Laker Reign of Terror!", aka NBA season?

mont13

You're the first person I've ever seen put somebody before MJ. While I do not agree with you, ...

And I wouldn't say that Kobe is a better offensive player than MJ simply because MJ was a much better passer and overall better team player. Kobe is a better scorer though.

BaraChat

I was very reluctant to put a list like this together and don't think my own list is "fair". My position all along has been that no one player is the GOAT. Unless they all played under the same rules, same role, role players, era, competition, ......etc . it's impossible to determine. For example, along with Jabbars accomplishments one writer said he would have had 3 DPOTY awards early in his career, but the NBA was not giving that award out those years. How many would Russell/Chamberlain have?

People give that award so much weight with MJ ("He was a great offensive player AND HE WON DPOTY'). If jabbar had those 3 DPOTY awards on his list would you see it differently? Was MJ a better 2 guard than Jabar was a center? How is this fairly determined? How do you fairly compare players across era's?

Yes, MJ deserves credit for what he accomplished in his era, but to put him over guys that he didn't face in their prime is wrong to me.

Oooohhhh, I disagree with MJ being a "better passer and team player than Kobe". I would need an explanation for that.

My concerns is will Kobe's knee and finger hold up? I don't know, I think they will have some competition in the west. Adding Barnes and "what's hs face" helps, but K. Durant and co will be even better, and there are a couple other teams.

Durant, btw, will be my next favorute player when "The Black Mamba", aka "The Jordan Legacy Killer", :P hangs em up. I'm really looking forward to the Lebron/Durant rivalry the next few years,...Kobe is winding it down...I think.

wow. never seen this before.. but imo he is top 3, Tied with Magic. Behind MJ.

[QUOTE="BaraChat"][QUOTE="silky_smooth8"] jesus.....when are people ever going to realize that you can't use that argument EVER. Whenever you put a modern day player back several decades, obviously the modern day player will dominate. It's about what the player did when he was in his RESPECTIVE ERA, which is why mike will remain GOAT even when kobe finishes his careerFizzman

As for the previous poster who said Kobe would score more back in the Jordan era........lol. Kobe gets a call if he gets looked at the wrong way, back then you had to work for your points. Kobe should thank MJ every day that because of his star power refs protect players so much today.

i love how people would always use the physicality/hand check argument and how there were less whistles back then as the reason why modern day players wouldn't be able to score back then. Yet what they don't factor in is how much more skilled, faster, stronger, smarter, just plain better at basketball they are now after decades of learning and practicing the game. Do you actually think that the players today, who are without any doubt more physcially gifted and more skilled wouldn't be able to adjust to the GODLY hand-check of the 80's?

[QUOTE="Fizzman"]

[QUOTE="BaraChat"] What about if Kobe wins TWO more championships? That'd be interesting. ;)silky_smooth8

As for the previous poster who said Kobe would score more back in the Jordan era........lol. Kobe gets a call if he gets looked at the wrong way, back then you had to work for your points. Kobe should thank MJ every day that because of his star power refs protect players so much today.

i love how people would always use the physicality/hand check argument and how there were less whistles back then as the reason why modern day players wouldn't be able to score back then. Yet what they don't factor in is how much more skilled, faster, stronger, smarter, just plain better at basketball they are now after decades of learning and practicing the game. Do you actually think that the players today, who are without any doubt more physcially gifted and more skilled wouldn't be able to adjust to the GODLY hand-check of the 80's?

Physical strength is irrelevent in what you are arguing. The fact is that Kobe would get to the line less, and get mauled while driving to the basket. Today's game is based on Jordan's play style so in his case he was well ahead of the curve. You think Kobe's basketball IQ or speed would somehow change the fact that a flagrant foul today wouldn't even be called in the early 90's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCEWhich pretty much breaks down the Jordan rules which the Pistons used on MJ. It shows on several occasions just how physical the game was. I would have loved seeing Kobe try to drive through that tripple team then whine and complain about the no call while the Pistons would be on a 4 on 5.

MJ, then Kobe. If Lebron stays on track hes an easy number 3. Maybe even 2.i5750at4Ghz

LeBron is no where on track to be better then Bird, Shaq, Russel, Duncan, let alone Magic, Kobe, or MJ. Lets be HONEST.

[QUOTE="i5750at4Ghz"]MJ, then Kobe. If Lebron stays on track hes an easy number 3. Maybe even 2.BLBxLakers24

LeBron is no where on track to be better then Bird, Shaq, Russel, Duncan, let alone Magic, Kobe, or MJ. Lets be HONEST.

Ok let me see, Kobe makes Odom afar better player, has turned Gasol into the best power foward in the league, All the role players on the team are better... and they are a LOT better when it actually matters, and thats in the playoffs.

Now let me put it to you like this.. LeBron Got Ben Wallace two time defensive player of the year, Ben got Gwoped out to play wit LeBron, Ben NEVER improved, Got Larry Hughes fresh off a 17ppg season and runner up defensive player of the year, he NEVER made Larry any better.. Both of them actually were worse with LeBron. Got Mo Williams, Mo never improved, stayed steady since they got him. Jamison, didnt improve, actually dropped off. Couldnt make ANYTHING work with Shaq. Soo to say LeBron didnt have peices. Yes he did. And honestly im tired of hearing he didnt, HE DIDNT MAKE THEM BETTER! Mj, Kobe MADE everyone on their teams CHAMPIONS. Thats the difference.

Kobe is the best basketball player on the planet when it counts. Kobe is a leader, he might come off as a jerk, arrogant. But thats the passion for the game, the passion to win, and that rubs off on his team mates.

Thats what seperates from LeBron from everybody else. In the playoffs he is not on Kobes level, KG level, Paul Peirce level, Duncans level, Gasol level, and those are just players in todays game. All those players make their teammates far better when it counts.

Ok let me see, Kobe makes Odom afar better player, has turned Gasol into the best power foward in the league, All the role players on the team are better... and they are a LOT better when it actually matters, and thats in the playoffs.

Now let me put it to you like this.. LeBron Got Ben Wallace two time defensive player of the year, Ben got Gwoped out to play wit LeBron, Ben NEVER improved, Got Larry Hughes fresh off a 17ppg season and runner up defensive player of the year, he NEVER made Larry any better.. Both of them actually were worse with LeBron. Got Mo Williams, Mo never improved, stayed steady since they got him. Jamison, didnt improve, actually dropped off. Couldnt make ANYTHING work with Shaq. Soo to say LeBron didnt have peices. Yes he did. And honestly im tired of hearing he didnt, HE DIDNT MAKE THEM BETTER! Mj, Kobe MADE everyone on their teams CHAMPIONS. Thats the difference.

Kobe is the best basketball player on the planet when it counts. Kobe is a leader, he might come off as a jerk, arrogant. But thats the passion for the game, the passion to win, and that rubs off on his team mates.

Thats what seperates from LeBron from everybody else. In the playoffs he is not on Kobes level, KG level, Paul Peirce level, Duncans level, Gasol level, and those are just players in todays game. All those players make their teammates far better when it counts.

BLBxLakers24

[QUOTE="BLBxLakers24"]

Ok let me see, Kobe makes Odom afar better player, has turned Gasol into the best power foward in the league, All the role players on the team are better... and they are a LOT better when it actually matters, and thats in the playoffs.

Now let me put it to you like this.. LeBron Got Ben Wallace two time defensive player of the year, Ben got Gwoped out to play wit LeBron, Ben NEVER improved, Got Larry Hughes fresh off a 17ppg season and runner up defensive player of the year, he NEVER made Larry any better.. Both of them actually were worse with LeBron. Got Mo Williams, Mo never improved, stayed steady since they got him. Jamison, didnt improve, actually dropped off. Couldnt make ANYTHING work with Shaq. Soo to say LeBron didnt have peices. Yes he did. And honestly im tired of hearing he didnt, HE DIDNT MAKE THEM BETTER! Mj, Kobe MADE everyone on their teams CHAMPIONS. Thats the difference.

Kobe is the best basketball player on the planet when it counts. Kobe is a leader, he might come off as a jerk, arrogant. But thats the passion for the game, the passion to win, and that rubs off on his team mates.

Thats what seperates from LeBron from everybody else. In the playoffs he is not on Kobes level, KG level, Paul Peirce level, Duncans level, Gasol level, and those are just players in todays game. All those players make their teammates far better when it counts.

i5750at4Ghz

And it doesnt matter if they went to G7, they still won.

Look at Gasol, was soft, lacked heart first year with LA, and got killed by KG and the Celtics didnt have the intensity. If you dont think Kobe has made his teammates better thats ok, cuz im dont arguing with you, because everyone on the Lakers talk about how Kobe rubs off on them, and they see how much he wants it. Hmmmm Im pretty sure Gasol said that, Odom, Ron.. But I guess your right...

and I like how you didnt come back and say anything about the players I named that LeBron didnt make any better.. Haha ok dude, keep being a LeBron stan, that will get you far.

LeBron is no where near Kobe, Mj, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Russel, Shaq. Give it up. Why did you even bring his name up?? haha Who talks about A.I anymore? Alex English? T-Mac? Nash (In the greatest of all time discussion)? No one! Cuz players that dont win, get forgotten over time. Thats life haha.

BRING ON THE HEAT ! 3 HEAT CANT STOP 3 PEAT ! WE OUT HERE! LA ALL DAYYY !

^ Yes, because Gasol was widely considered the best PF in the league before he played with Kobe:roll: Lamar Odom is one the best sixth man in the league and one of the best rebounders and defenders in the entire league. Thanks for playing.-Halftime-

No one! Cuz players that dont win, get forgotten over time. Thats life haha.BLBxLakers24

None of those names besides MAYBE Malone get mentioned when it comes to a top ten list... Scratch... Not even malone

[QUOTE="BLBxLakers24"] No one! Cuz players that dont win, get forgotten over time. Thats life haha.No_Hablo_Ingles

^ Yes, because Gasol was widely considered the best PF in the league before he played with Kobe:roll: Lamar Odom is one the best sixth man in the league and one of the best rebounders and defenders in the entire league. Thanks for playing.-Halftime-

[QUOTE="-Halftime-"]^ Yes, because Gasol was widely considered the best PF in the league before he played with Kobe:roll: Lamar Odom is one the best sixth man in the league and one of the best rebounders and defenders in the entire league. Thanks for playing.BLBxLakers24

And regardless of how he was seen, Gasol has always been a beast on the court. Kobe didn't better his game at all. If anything Gasol makes Kobe better. What has Kobe ever down without a strong inside presence?i5750at4Ghz

[QUOTE="i5750at4Ghz"]And regardless of how he was seen, Gasol has always been a beast on the court. Kobe didn't better his game at all. If anything Gasol makes Kobe better. What has Kobe ever down without a strong inside presence?andyboiii

[QUOTE="andyboiii"][QUOTE="i5750at4Ghz"]And regardless of how he was seen, Gasol has always been a beast on the court. Kobe didn't better his game at all. If anything Gasol makes Kobe better. What has Kobe ever down without a strong inside presence?i5750at4Ghz

I don't see your point. If anything you're helping to prove my point which is that teams win rings not players.i5750at4Ghz

[QUOTE="i5750at4Ghz"]I don't see your point. If anything you're helping to prove my point which is that teams win rings not players.andyboiii

And I'm asking how? Gasol has always been a great player. There is a reason when the trade went down is was all over the net.i5750at4Ghz

[QUOTE="i5750at4Ghz"]And I'm asking how? Gasol has always been a great player. There is a reason when the trade went down is was all over the net.andyboiii