The folks at Digital Foundry are considered to be the foremost experts when it comes to the technical analysis of videogames.
Today they’ve posted their own analysis of Redout: Lightspeed Edition and their findings pointed out to an Xbox One X version rendered at 1080p, which induced a significant amount of outrage against 34BigThings as you can see in the images below, particularly because the PlayStation 4 Pro version of the game currently renders Redout at a more stable framerate compared to Xbox One X.
Nicest part of a cloudy saturday morning? Waking up to a shitstorm raging upon you, based on what we can call incompetent technical analysis at best, fake news at worst.
Digital Foundry might have been a competent source of technical information in the past, but it might be currently going down to the click-baiting path. They just published an opinionated video on our game, Redout, in which they talk about Xbox One X performances, framerate and resolution, mentioning over and over that Redout shows a 1080p rendering for the Xbox One X version.
This is a pure, straight lie. The Xbox One X got an enhancement update a couple of weeks ago which brings 4k rendering with dynamic resolution scaling to everyone (owners or not of 4k TV). More specifically, we managed to scale the resolution between 90% and 50% of native 4k, which means the resolution goes from the upper limit of 3456×1944 to the lower one of 1920×1080 [confirmed also by VG Tech]. More technical details on this will follow in the next days, when everybody will be back from holiday vacations but meanwhile let us spell it out: it’s not 1080p.
As many users reported, there are still some framerate hiccups where the game can’t keep the 60fps pace and significantly drops below the 45+ threshold, which is something we are aware and very sorry of. This happens more frequently where many AI opponents are factored in, while it’s close to nonexistent on time attacks, solo races and races with few opponents. We are aware of these issues and we’ll keep working on those as long as possible.
But saying that Redout renders at 1080p is plain false. This, combined with the fact that some players seem to be highly sensitive to the XBox vs. PS4 performances tug-of-war, caused a rain of negative comments on our heads, all based on wrong information.
We are currently looking into legal action to defend our public image. Not only because we dislike being called lazy or incompetent gratuitously, but also to send a message to the players and the industry. Gamedevs (indies especially) are amongst the most hard working people, to the point that burnout and crunch culture in game development are widespread. Really, just stop calling them lazy to the first hiccup. And don’t fabricate excuses for calling them lazy. Ok? Thank you.
If DF made a mistake this is a terrible way to handle it. Should have contacted them privately to resolve the issue instead of making themselves look thirsty for drama. This will never fly in court. I think?
If DF made a mistake this is a terrible way to handle it. Should have contacted them privately to resolve the issue instead of making themselves look thirsty for drama. This will never fly in court. I think?
From what I can tell, 34BigThings is based in Torino, Italy and Digital Foundry is based in Europe (the U.K. but please correct me, I don't actually know) and I imagine both have incorporation in those countries respectively or elsewhere in the EU. I can't say with any degree of certainty exactly how a court will handle a suit between EU members and have virtually no understanding of their rules of civil procedure, i.e. how to drag a U.K. entity into an Italian court, and vice versa, or if they have to pursue remedy in whatever the European equivalent is of federal court.
My intuition suggests that there's only two possible causes of action: (1) Defamation via libel/slander (which, in the U.S., is primarily controlled by state law); or (2) commercial misrepresentation/fraud in violation of EU regulations (akin to the U.S. FTC). But I highly doubt either side wants to get steeped into legislation over something like this. To be honest, 34BigThings' reaction to the story seems a bit hasty when the tone and tenor of DF's analyses are aimed more pointedly towards the computing products than they are the software.
Thanks for the insight. I wasn't too sure because of it involving two different countries. Yeah DF's videos are so benign it's hard to imagine anyone can honestly claim malicious intent. It's at best a simple goof and at worst a lazy oversight.
"Running the same content side-by-side with the Pro, it's clear that the Sony machine has an obvious performance advantage. Rare, single frame drops on the Pro pass by unnoticed, but bouts of judder that take the game into 50fps and even 40fps territory are an unwelcome feature of the Xbox One X release. Bearing in mind the additional compute power and memory bandwidth offered by the Scorpio Engine, it's hard to believe that Redout is under-performing to this degree, especially once the slight visual downgrades are factored into the mix.
Article Continues Below
The bottom line is that Redout on PS4 Pro has the edge visually and makes a much better fist of hitting its 60fps target frame-rate, with Xbox One X falling short of the target in both regards. We've seen games on the new Microsoft system effortlessly outperform the Pro, or deliver a range of resolution improvements with no impact to frame-rate. We've even seen titles that match performance, while massively increasing pixel counts and adding visual features. On the flipside, we've seen X titles that push resolution so hard, that performance can take a hit compared to the Pro version. However, Redout is the first X-enhanced title we've seen that pares back the visual feature-set compared to Pro - and actually delivers worse performance. We have our fingers crossed that the developer will come back with a revised, improved take on what is a really impressive racer, but as things stand, Redout on Xbox One X is a disappointment."
I thought the X didn't need a patch? It sounds like it runs slightly better than the base Xbox One. Kinda surprised that the dev didn't contact DF and let them know a patch was out. DF could of quickly updated the article.
I think the biggest takeaway from the DF analysis is on the framerate side of things, as someone interested in playing this game, then that is something I'm concerned about, but I still decided to get the game for the X1X anyways (it was on sale, I'm weak), but hopefully the devs live up to their word and try to smooth that issue out.
Seems the real contention is strictly on the resolution claims that DF made. It already looks like DF is rolling back on previous statements admitting on their current head-to-head article that the resolution is a scaling one, which pretty much means they're wrong on that end, at least as far as resolution goes.
Game still lacks in the framerate department, but glad the devs seem devoted to making it run smoother.
DF overlooked the dynamic scaling and have posted an update in the description of their YouTube video.
UPDATE: Tip of the hat to VGTech, for confirming dynamic resolution scaling with a different shot selection. How the scaler works is something we'll take a look at, as even the simplest shots in our sample came in at native 1080p. Check out his work here: https://youtu.be/nOcdg7ZRB0k
Overall though, I would be disappointed with this if I owned an Xbox One X, all things considered. Also, when the developer mentions the range of 3456x1944 to 1920x1080, the lower range is 25% of 4k, not 50% of 4k.
DF did say at the end of the video that they'll keep an eye on it in case anything changes.
@tetsuosadvantag: digital foundry will most likely update, change, or remove their video if they are wrong.
Apparently vgtech has different unbiased and professional analysis as well and it supports the developers claims.
I think df just rush out these Xbox x analysis to try and stay away from the first few performance patches for games that didn't have enough time to optimize before launch.
This game is from an indie dev so that might have something to do with it. Not many or any AAA games perform better on the ps4 pro compared to the Xbox x. I think
@neoistheone: didnt DF recently state that they were not going to jump the gun anymore recently because of their recent mishaps? Seems like they jumped the gun again.
Wait DF made a mistake because they barely know what the hell they are doing over there? who would have thought that.
@Black96Z said:
@neoistheone: didnt DF recently state that they were not going to jump the gun anymore recently because of their recent mishaps? Seems like they jumped the gun again.
It's DF, they can pixel count but but that's it.
They often give bad information in general and that's also why they shifted towards console department. More money into click bait console wars then actual quality research and correct information.
The reason why they even bothered with this game most likely is that they where actively searching for a xbox one x title that couldn't hold up to not look biased, they often got accused of that back in the days. However that hunt now backfired on them big time because it's just pathetic in general.
@tetsuosadvantag: digital foundry will most likely update, change, or remove their video if they are wrong.
Apparently vgtech has different unbiased and professional analysis as well and it supports the developers claims.
I think df just rush out these Xbox x analysis to try and stay away from the first few performance patches for games that didn't have enough time to optimize before launch.
This game is from an indie dev so that might have something to do with it. Not many or any AAA games perform better on the ps4 pro compared to the Xbox x. I think
Damage is already done, i fully agree with the company to go after digital foundry. They actively indirectly damages the company with false / incomplete information. Which will result in a massive crap storm of negative reviews for absolute no reason. And as a indie dev that could take you out of business entirely.
Digital foundry is not going to stay away from that, they live for there click bait articles. they need traffic.
If DF made a mistake this is a terrible way to handle it. Should have contacted them privately to resolve the issue instead of making themselves look thirsty for drama. This will never fly in court. I think?
From what I can tell, 34BigThings is based in Torino, Italy and Digital Foundry is based in Europe (the U.K. but please correct me, I don't actually know) and I imagine both have incorporation in those countries respectively or elsewhere in the EU. I can't say with any degree of certainty exactly how a court will handle a suit between EU members and have virtually no understanding of their rules of civil procedure, i.e. how to drag a U.K. entity into an Italian court, and vice versa, or if they have to pursue remedy in whatever the European equivalent is of federal court.
My intuition suggests that there's only two possible causes of action: (1) Defamation via libel/slander (which, in the U.S., is primarily controlled by state law); or (2) commercial misrepresentation/fraud in violation of EU regulations (akin to the U.S. FTC). But I highly doubt either side wants to get steeped into legislation over something like this. To be honest, 34BigThings' reaction to the story seems a bit hasty when the tone and tenor of DF's analyses are aimed more pointedly towards the computing products than they are the software.
the us and europe may both be a democracy, it's vastly different when it comes to laws and culture. Not like middle east and asian countries, but comparing the us with europe is pretty much comparing apples and oranges. For starters europe (or at least italy and belgium where I'm from) don't have any absolute freedom of speech. Slander is not taken lightly, even if it's against companies. Of course this is about a product and it's not like you can't criticize a movie or something, but this is straight up spreading false information about the product that might hurt the sales of the product.
Of course europe makes it more difficult, and the following convention doesn't have a clear cut understanding of what can and can't be said and written
The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or the rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.
An example case in this regard is the mclibel case where a group deliverd false information about mcdonalds in pamflets in front of their restaurants across europe but the group received support from the public and the court because they were adressing problems with junk food.
I don't think digital foundry will receive any support in this regard, their best bet is to say they had problems with their hardware and rectify the article asap, otherwise this could certainly fly in court.
These developers are obviously worthless. Who cares if the res is dynamic higher than 1080p? The point is the devs half @ssed the port and DF's comparison was right on.
The good news for me as an X owner is that I have absolutely zero interest in this game.
If DF made a mistake this is a terrible way to handle it. Should have contacted them privately to resolve the issue instead of making themselves look thirsty for drama. This will never fly in court. I think?
Bullshit. DF's word has somehow become gospel truth in the internet gaming community. If they screwed up they can be publicly called out like anyone else. And they've now apologized for it.....................because DF did fvck up. They're human, not perfect.
the cows can't really use DF's analysis as ammo anyway considering the vast majority of games that are patched for the Xbox one x run better than on the Ps4 Pro.
It would be Akin as trying ti use Multplats last gen as evdidence the Ps3 was more powerful then the 360 (it was, Marginally, but you see my point)
But i digress, this sounds like an unfortunate situation where DF did not have the aforementioned optimization Patch for the Xbox one X.
i Believe It's an honest Mistake that is being overblown and i don't think the Devs are doing themselves any favors with this knee jerk reaction.
They should have invited DF over for Tea and biscuits and have a nice civilized chat about it.
Um okay? What's with the needless hostility? And you're arguing against points I'm not even making? I'm baffled by your assumptions here.
? I'm baffled by the use of the term "Bullshit" = Needless hostility.
I don't believe the dev in question is handling it terribly by making it public that a tech analysis source that carries so much clout can make mistakes. I applaud it because it can show nobody is perfect.
Well maybe you're a fan of this odd and pervasive "call out" culture but it seems pretty ridiculous to me. Of course they CAN escalate this straight into the court of public opinion but should they for such a simple mistake that they themselves later corrected? Contacting them privately would likely have netted the same results. It seems reasonable to correct this issue without the (ridiculous) threat of a lawsuit.
Well maybe you're a fan of this odd and pervasive "call out" culture but it seems pretty ridiculous to me. Of course they CAN escalate this straight into the court of public opinion but should they for such a simple mistake that they themselves later corrected? Contacting them privately would likely have netted the same results. It seems reasonable to correct this issue without the (ridiculous) threat of a lawsuit.
Hey I say that very often when someone gets dragged to court. Taking things to court without even trying to be humane about it to me ensures that the person doing so gets no sympathy.
Like: My sister got kicked hard from behind in an effort to wound her, during soccer. There was no ball in sight. In a reflex she turned around and punched the lady right in the nose. The referee gave them both the same punishment as they both did something bad. For 2 weeks everything was OK. Then we got a letter that my sister was to appear in court for hurting that lady. She had collected evidence of the wound, made up a weird story behind it so that the police took it seriously enough to send it to the prosecutor. Of course, my sister wasn't as much of a bitch so she didn't collect evidence of the wound where she kicked her in those 2 weeks. The lady knew to do this because, this is a nice touch, her mother was a police officer so she knew how to screw us XD
So yeah my sister almost went to jail, and we couldn't do anything officially in return. They could have just talked about it but she used the justice system to get one over on us. The lady was studying to be a police officer too, so if we had done the same she probably wouldn't have been allowed to finish her study. On one side I am almost sad that we didn't, on the other side, can't we just talk things out instead of using the law to get at each others throat?
If we're talking about a mindless corporation like EA I don't care, but I thought DF wasn't so bad that you can't contact them and talk to them.
DF overlooked the dynamic scaling and have posted an update in the description of their YouTube video.
UPDATE: Tip of the hat to VGTech, for confirming dynamic resolution scaling with a different shot selection. How the scaler works is something we'll take a look at, as even the simplest shots in our sample came in at native 1080p. Check out his work here: https://youtu.be/nOcdg7ZRB0k
Overall though, I would be disappointed with this if I owned an Xbox One X, all things considered. Also, when the developer mentions the range of 3456x1944 to 1920x1080, the lower range is 25% of 4k, not 50% of 4k.
DF did say at the end of the video that they'll keep an eye on it in case anything changes.
Edit: they took the video down now anyway
So, devs also gave inaccurate tech claims of scaling percentages. And also, Redout isn't a 4k game on XboneX and also a 4k checkerboard on PS4 Pro
Lololol what a bunch of crybaby lems. Threatening legal action hahahaha. Losers
Seriously are you fanboys becoming this damn stupid. This game has nothing to do with Microsoft/Lemmings other then it being on their platform. Good lord!
A dynamic scaler that's so shit that DF, the guys who came up with pixel counting were not able to tell that there's a dynamic scaler in place.
And generally I can see the resolution difference between Pro and X as in 99% of games as it's quite obvious, I could not see said difference in the video they did on this game.
'Redout' Enhanced For The Xbox One X Crashes And Burns, Controversy Ensues
Redout is a high-speed futuristic racing game that cries out to be played at 60 frames per second. The launch versions of the Xbox One and the PS4 couldn’t handle it, but the PS4 Pro version pretty much nailed 60 fps. In an interview with wccftech last August, developer 34BigThings indicated it expected the Xbox One X version to run at 60 fps and native 4K resolution (3840 x 2160) with graphics set to the PC’s “Epic” mode. To say things didn’t turn out as planned would be an understatement. The Pro outperforms the One X version of Redout by a wide margin.
When Digitial Foundry reported Redout’s shortcomings on the One X, 34BigThings CEO Valerio Di Donato responded with an angry and hostile blog post excoriating Digital Foundry as a purveyor of lies and fake news for what was apparently a simple mistake. To their credit, Digital Foundry did not respond in kind.
When Digitial Foundry reported Redout’s shortcomings on the One X, 34BigThings CEO Valerio Di Donato responded with an angry and hostile blog post excoriating Digital Foundry as a purveyor of lies and fake news for what was apparently a simple mistake. To their credit, Digital Foundry did not respond in kind.
Performance
The One X and the Pro both have 8-core AMD CPUs. The CPU in the One X is 200 MHz faster than the Pro, so you would expect the minor drops from 60 fps that occasionally pop up on the Pro would be smoothed out on the One X. That’s not what happens.
Both Digital Foundry and VG Tech report substantial drops in frame rate on the One X. VG Tech recorded frame rates that frequently dropped below 60 fps, spent a notable amount of time in the 40 to 50 fps range, and occasionally dipped below 40 fps. There are also massive frame time problems on the One X as can be seen in the image above. This is a major problem for a game that plays at Redout’s super-fast speed.
Di Donato acknowledged that 34BigThings is aware that the One X enhanced version of Redout has serious frame rate issues. He pointed out that the problem mainly appears in races with many AI opponents although it happens at other times as well. 34BigThings is working to resolve the problem.
The controversy
The controversy surrounding the One X version of Redout is centered around an initial report by Digital Foundry that the game not only fails to reach the promised native 4K resolution, but runs at a steady 1080p. Their report rested on having never observed a resolution other than 1080p in all of their tests. They updated their article after VG Tech reported that Redout makes use of dynamic resolution scaling and is not always limited to 1080p.
As often happens, people trashed 34BigThings on social media after either reading Digital Foundry’s article or watching their video. Di Donato then overreacted with his angry blog post. An initial version of that post quoted in full by wccftech stated “We are currently looking into legal action to defend our public image.” Calmer heads seem to have prevailed as “legal action” has been changed to “various ways” in the version of the post that was on the 34BigThings website when this article was written.
Digital Foundry responded by updating their article a second time with an apology to 34BigThings. They included lengthy quotes from Di Donato’s blog post without quoting (or sinking to the level of) his angry ranting. Digital Foundry also took down their video and indicated a new video will be forthcoming when they figure out what’s going on.
Resolution
So, what resolution does Redout play at on the One X? One thing is sure; it’s not native 4K.
The game uses dynamic scaling which Di Donato claims ranges from 3156 x 1944 to 1920 x 1080. Di Donato also asserts that these resolutions correspond to 90% and 50% of native 4K. This is incorrect. Here are the correct numbers.
The resolution ranges Di Donato provided correspond to 81% and 25% (not 90% and 50%) of native 4K. Di Donato only considered the vertical dimension when he came up with his percentages which is an odd mistake for the CEO of a gaming company who holds an MSc in Game Technology to make.
Digital Foundry also made a mistake by reporting Redout plays at 1080p all of the time when it appears to only run at 1080p some of the time. Di Donato responded by calling Digital Foundry’s mistake “a pure, straight lie”, and referred to the Digital Foundry article as “incompetent technical analysis at best, fake news at worst”.
Given Di Donato’s response to Digital Foundry’s mistake, how should his own mistake about Redout’s resolution be evaluated? Is his 90% to 50% claim “a pure, straight lie”, does he not understand that resolution is measured on both the horizontal and vertical dimensions, or did he just make a careless error in the heat of the moment? Maybe all of this drama could have been avoided if people thought of alternative explanations before lashing out in anger.
Setting errors and vitriol aside, the resolution question at the heart of the controversy boils down to how frequently Redout plays at 1080p. The answer is currently unknown.
Conclusion
Outrage generates a lot of heat and very little light, and right now we’re in the dark about Redout’s resolution on the One X. Digital Foundry saw 1080p all of the time while 34BigThings' CEO says it only plays at 1080p some of the time. What’s being ignored here is that 1080p at any time is a very poor showing for a game that’s been enhanced to run on a graphical powerhouse like the One X.
The passions generated by the resolution issue seem out of proportion to the problem because resolution and graphics are not nearly as important as frame rate in a high-speed game like Redout. Redout's frame rates on the One X are terrible with extended time spent in the 40 and 50 fps ranges and occasional brief dips into the high 30s. The PS4 Pro, with less processing power than the One X, does much better holding at, or very close to 60 fps throughout.
The unavoidable conclusion is that, in its current form, Redout on the One X is a car wreck that’s best avoided in favor of playing on the Pro.
In another article I argued that Microsoft has a window of opportunity as long as the One X is the most powerful console on the market. I suggested one way Microsoft could take advantage of this opportunity is by providing technical and financial support for developers who want to enhance their games to run on the One X. It would be great if Microsoft reached out with an offer to help 34BigThings because Redout is a good game that would be a fine addition to the One X lineup if its problems were fixed.
I agree with Forbes on this one - DF's mistake aside, it doesn't negate the fact that it is hardly a 4K game, it's hardly a true 60FPS game - it clearly isn't well made for the X1X at this time. The devs unloading on DF in this way is unprofessional and their product needs work. End of story. DF missed something here, for either simple or nefarious reasons depending on your tinfoil hattage, but the overall message - which "the good technical review site" also shared - remains unchanged. The game needs fixin' on X1X
My take on this is that DF pointed out that on more powerful hardware, the game under performs. Regardless if they said 1080p and its' not. Te Dev likely tailored their game for the Playstation and ported the changes to the Xbox with little to no effort to utilize the X1X's extra power to smooth out these issues. Frame rate drops on the x1x version should not be a thing even if they run the exact same code! !005 on DF's side with this.
Also, who are these guys and what crap game is this?
I agree with Forbes on this one - DF's mistake aside, it doesn't negate the fact that it is hardly a 4K game, it's hardly a true 60FPS game - it clearly isn't well made for the X1X at this time. The devs unloading on DF in this way is unprofessional and their product needs work. End of story. DF missed something here, for either simple or nefarious reasons depending on your tinfoil hattage, but the overall message - which "the good technical review site" also shared - remains unchanged. The game needs fixin' on X1X
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