Are video games art, and why does it matter? (an analysis on the question)

This topic is locked from further discussion.

Avatar image for mynameisdumb
mynameisdumb

3647

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#1 mynameisdumb
Member since 2003 • 3647 Posts

Are video games art? This is a question that has been mulled to a certain extent, but not discussed often enough. I have seen articles in GameInformer about it and limited discussion online (particularly in reference to Roger Ebert's ignorant statements), but never to the depth that I think this question deserves.

For the above reason, I'm going to attempt to shed some light on (first) why I believe video games art and (second) why I believe this does in fact matter. By no means is what I'm saying necessarily definitive or absolute fact, so please don't believe otherwise. It's just my opinion on the issue. In fact, I'm very interested in hearing other peoples' opinions too, because I believe this is an important issue that should be talked about more (for reasons I will discuss later).

Ok, first and foremost, it's my opinion that video games are not necessarily art. It's hard to argue that every game ever made is (Superman 64 anyone?). In fact, most games aren't art in any sense of the word.

However, there is no need for all games TO be art. All you need is some, and some definitely are.

The main arguments I hear against games being art are that they are interactive (and therefore not predetermined by the artist), too violent and repetetive, and not deep enough. I'm going to answer each of these arguments with a game that proves them wrong. In fact, each of the three games I bring up could make a case by itself for video games being art. All together merely drive the point home.

1. First, the most common argument is that video games are not art because they are interactive and the experience you garner from them is not predetermined. The game I chose to argue this is Fallout 3. This is a perfect example of a game someone would use to actually PROVE that video games are too interactive to be art. However, in fact, by proving that Fallout 3 (such an open-ended game) is art, any games more linear fall of the map of this argument.

My response to this argument is simply that while the experience is open, the ending and story is still structured BY the creators of the game. By this logic, Shakespeare isn't art because you can choose which of his stories you want to read and get a new experience every time. Instead of looking at a game with multiple paths like Fallout 3 (the simple good/evil structured endings) as one individual game, look at it as two possible experiences in the same package, or two games (or pieces of art). Really, it becomes semantics when you claim that having multiple paths or endings or stories is different from two separate novels or movies. Then the obvious argument that Fallout 3's multiple paths take place in the same setting comes up so it apparently somehow can't be two different experiences, but aren't there multiple movies that take place on a spaceship? Or in the same city, like NYC?

Additionally, for Fallout 3 specifically, I DEFY anyone to play the game outside for five minutes and then claim that it isn't art. The desolate landscapes portrayed are easily among the best disaster-style art out there. Even if you ignore all this, there are artists who act in interactive art (Chin Chih Yang comes to mind), which debases this entire argument entirely. The bottom line is Fallout 3 (and all other games) are created and sculpted by people, and if the game is intended as art, there is no reason interaction detracts from that sentiment.

2. Games are all the same and violent, or repetetive, or something similarly biased and untrue. People argue that because games follow a common pattern (like shooting games) they can't be art due to oversaturation of similar content. This argument never made any sense to me whatsoever. I'm going to answer this game in two parts.

First, not all games fit that stereotype of video games (violent repetetive gunfests). For this argument I'm going to use the example of Okami. Sure, some video games are violent or repetetive (or goofy, or comedic, or something else that somehow makes them not art) but there are exceptions. Okami is neither excessively violent nor repetetive. Anyone who played this gem of a game can vouch, it's an incredible experience with a particularly gorgeous artistic graphical style. While you do fight, it's not with guns, or bloody, or violent really at all. You control a wolf who uses what can best be described as various shields/emblems to fight (and in a glorious, flowing motion at that). It's not repetetive, you go through more regions than most movies have scenes, and you do things from as minor as collecting clovers to painting magical designs on screen (to create things like weather effects or a cutting effect). The game plays out as an awe-inspiring adventure full of colorful creations (rivaling contemporary artists) and a delightful story (rivaling most movies or novels).

Second, even if games were all the same violent gunfests (which they aren't obviously, but I will grant this for the sake of the argument), aren't some still better than others? Anyone who believes Conflict: Vietnam is at the caliber of Halo or Call of Duty is crazy. They are all shoot-em-up games, violent, bloody, and fit the stereotype of video games. However, some games excel above others, as games and art. This flawed argument then makes movies, books, and paintings definitively not art. Why? Well I have seen plenty of movies about going to college and a person's experiences there. The movie Animal House is considered a comedic triumph, and is considered art by many. Yet, in the same vein, a movie last year was released called "College", which was potentially one of the worst movies of all time. The same applies to novels. Harry Potter and Macbeth both involve witches, as do plenty of other books, but this in no way detracts from Macbeth being a work of art. Or "all paintings are the same, they are just a random hodgepodge of colors, so since they are all similar, they can't be art." See where I'm going with this? Having more of a certain genre or style does NOT detract from the items in that genre or style that are purely art.

3. Finally, there is the argument that games simply aren't deep enough. I don't think I really need to explain why this is absolutely ridiculous, because I'm sure everyone on here has played or heard of games that are incredibly deep, and often deeper than movies or novels that are supposedly art. However, I still have to refute this blatantly incorrect argument to share my opinion. For this argument, I will be using Braid as an example.

Again, granted, not all games are deep (most not even close to deep). Most avoid being deep and stick to being simple and fun. However, you AGAIN can't judge all games by that standard). Games can be deep (and in very different genres). Take the Metal Gear Solid series (3rd person action), Bioshock (1st person shooter), ANY RTS game (RTS obviously), Ico (3rd person adventure), and the game I will be focusing on, Braid (side scrolling puzzle solving). Braid is deeper and has more meaning under the surface than almost any piece of writing, film, or art I have ever seen. I can't in good conscience reveal anything about the story, but suffice it to say that its story will lead you from confused, to startled, to heartbroken, and to plenty of other emotions through the course of this short adventure. And the most fantastic part about it is that the game reveals its story through only a few simple paragraphs of text. It's the written equivalent of a ten page book at most, but Braid effectively takes your mind and knowingly creates the certain emotions and responses that the creators wanted you to receive (much as any great work of art does). The ending twist is on par with the Sixth Sense, a movie many believe to be art, or with Romeo and Juliet's tragic ending.

With these three answers to common arguments out of the way, it's important to briefly discuss why video games in fact can be art instead of just focusing on the arguments of why they CAN'T be art. Again, this does not apply to all video games, but to the ones discussed above and many more. But...

On the mental/emotional side of art, video games are lovingly created and sculpted by an individual or group of individuals who intentionally take your mind on a journey and instill emotions and feelings inside of you, which is on par with what is commonly accepted as art. Fancy flamboyant language aside, video games are made by people to effect you in some way, the same way any other art is. Metal Gear Solid (the series) takes you through an emotional roller coaster as any classic novel would. On the physical/aesthetic side of art, video games are capable of creating incredibly well made landscapes, backdrops, designs, graphics, etc. Sound design is another point, effective and well done sound design can contribute to being art. In games like Bioshock the beautiful locale (an underwater city) immerses you with a combination of it's particularly stellar water effects and incredible sound design (the sounds of water, other beings walking around, metal clanks, etc.).

So if you took the time to read this far (thank you if you did), then you may be thinking, "Ok, I get it, you think video games are art. Who cares? Why does it matter?."

The answer to this is simple. Video games will never be respected on a mainstream, worldwide level as a respectable form of entertainment until they develop credibility. Non-gamers think of video games as simple toys intended to entertain for a brief period. We see complex, interactive realites created for our enjoyment. The rest of the world sees Pong (simple, mindless fun) while we people who play games see games like Fallout 3, Okami, and Braid (all of which are art). Being able to establish certain video games as art is an incredible step in the right direction.

Every other form of mass entertainment (movies, literature, music, and obviously art in general) has examples that are the cream of the crop that people use as an argument for what makes that medium actual art. If you talked to the average person living in the United States, they would know (or at least recognize) the movie Citizen Kane, the literature Romeo and Juliet, the music of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, and the art of the Mona Lisa. All of these are considered as shining examples of what redeem these forms of entertainment, and therefore catapult them towards a beneficial world opinion. People respect these media greatly, and this respect is that has allowed them to become as large and respected as they are, and in turn to help them grow even better. Literature has evolved from simple short stories to entire series of books focusing on multiple character interactions, deviously shifting story lines, and establishing setting. The same goes for movies, music, and art. The point of this is, video games will always be at least slightly hampered from people's perspective of them as a timewaster instead of a true form of art. While video games are developing greatly and quickly, there are still ten movie cash-in games, or ten generic run-and-gun WW2 shooters, or ten other simply bad games for every one Okami, Fallout 3, or Braid.

I believe that if we can somehow bring a sense of legitimacy into video games, the industry has more room to expand. Video games' primary demographic is still young men, and that explains the generic shooting games. However, video games have taken steps in the right direction already. The DS (and then even more the Wii) attempt to capitalize to people of all ages or gender, with games as varied as Brain Age, Nintendogs, and Wii Sports. Whether you like these games or not, it shows an honest attempt for the gaming industry to expand its sway in the world's view. By establishing certain video games as an art form, we in turn exponentially increase the rate at which gaming involves, and eventually can then establish video games as a medium as popular or widespread as movies, music, or whatever. From a gamer standpoint, this leads to more money in the industry for more games and more variety in the games that are made. Current nongamers, on the other hand, receive the same benefits, and maybe the new variety draws them into the industry, creating an upwards spiral of increased consumers, and in turn, increased amount and quality of games.

Avatar image for mynameisdumb
mynameisdumb

3647

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#2 mynameisdumb
Member since 2003 • 3647 Posts

Additionally, forgot to mention, as stated in the post PLEASE respond. I want to hear other opinions and discussion on this, as it's something I believe is too little discussed.

And also, sorry for the unfortunate "wall of text" effect. Impossible to avoid with that much writing.

Avatar image for Sword-Demon
Sword-Demon

7007

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#3 Sword-Demon
Member since 2008 • 7007 Posts

oh god... who do you think is going to read that wall of text?

Avatar image for AAllxxjjnn
AAllxxjjnn

19992

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#4 AAllxxjjnn
Member since 2008 • 19992 Posts
This is.
Avatar image for Toriko42
Toriko42

27562

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 45

User Lists: 0

#5 Toriko42
Member since 2006 • 27562 Posts
It's like the are movies art argument Yes some of them are but most are not...the average Michael Bay movie won't be a work of art. In our world it's the average Cliffy B game. On the other spectrum, a movie by oh let's say...Akira Kurosawa, that is art. In our world, a Kojima game for instance could be art. That is what I always argue and I stand by it.
Avatar image for SpruceCaboose
SpruceCaboose

24589

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 9

User Lists: 0

#6 SpruceCaboose
Member since 2005 • 24589 Posts
art - the products of human creativity; works of art collectively; the creation of beautiful or significant things

I certainly do think that games are art.
Avatar image for PBSnipes
PBSnipes

14621

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#7 PBSnipes
Member since 2007 • 14621 Posts

First off, you might want to try formatting your post a different way to avoid the tl;dr responses. The average SW'er doesn't have much of an attention span, so you might want to add some brightly coloured pictures or something. :P

Games are art. In fact, I would argue that games are the pinnacle of art, since they not only combine the elements of the other arts but they allow the user to experience the creator's vision in a way unlike any other. The biggest problem (at least as far as I'm concerned), is that the vast majority of the gaming industry has no idea how to write, and as a result we end up with either end up with one gigantic cliche or a bat****-insane story with hackneyed dialogue and unlikable characters. The rest of the elements are there, but outside of a handful of titles (Mass Effect, Deus Ex and World of Goo off the top of my head), the writing isn't at a level I would qualify as "art".

Avatar image for verbalfilth
verbalfilth

5043

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#8 verbalfilth
Member since 2006 • 5043 Posts

oh god... who do you think is going to read that wall of text?

Sword-Demon
I did. If someone's willing to create a thread worth reading then it should be read. Topic creater, I agree with your points except the first few lines where you state that some games are not art...(superman 64). I believe all games good or bad are art. If a child paints a picture that is pretty horrible and straight forward and compared against Michael Angelo's pieta it doesn't automatically mean that the child's work isn't art...any creativity that has been been poured by an individual into a work is art in my opinion. Other than that... very good read.
Avatar image for mynameisdumb
mynameisdumb

3647

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#9 mynameisdumb
Member since 2003 • 3647 Posts

oh god... who do you think is going to read that wall of text?

Sword-Demon

I'm expecting almost nobody to read this. Honestly, I probably wouldn't want to read that if I was just surfing the web. However, if you don't want to read it then consider it for the few people who will, of which there are guaranteed to be some (of the thousands that read this message board, sometimes even without posting).

I would be remiss if I didn't bring up this topic for discussion for those who do read it, especially since I really do believe video games as art is a more relevant issue than people give credit to.

Avatar image for SpruceCaboose
SpruceCaboose

24589

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 9

User Lists: 0

#10 SpruceCaboose
Member since 2005 • 24589 Posts
[QUOTE="Sword-Demon"]

oh god... who do you think is going to read that wall of text?

mynameisdumb

I'm expecting almost nobody to read this. Honestly, I probably wouldn't want to read that if I was just surfing the web. However, if you don't want to read it then consider it for the few people who will, of which there are guaranteed to be some (of the thousands that read this message board, sometimes even without posting).

I would be remiss if I didn't bring up this topic for discussion for those who do read it, especially since I really do believe video games as art is a more relevant issue than people give credit to.

Bravo. Some people here enjoy a bit of real discussion from time to time. But verbalfilth put forth pretty much my stance. He just put it very well.
Avatar image for lebanese_boy
lebanese_boy

18050

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#11 lebanese_boy
Member since 2003 • 18050 Posts

I believe Video Games go above Arts.

Some of them definitely have art materials in it like Metal Gear Solid 4, Braid, Okami and so on... but the very thing that is video games really distinguishes it from everything else. Art for me is when someone expresses himself/herself, that would be the artists. While video game designers do express themselves throughout their video games, the gamer who plays the game also expresses himself/herself through the course of action that he/she is taking to complete certain tasks in the video game in question. This is present nowhere else in music, movies and paintings and this is why I think video games go above what we all know as art.

To consider it art is the first step in recognizing this.

Avatar image for lebanese_boy
lebanese_boy

18050

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#12 lebanese_boy
Member since 2003 • 18050 Posts

oh god... who do you think is going to read that wall of text?

Sword-Demon

That's the smartest thread I've seen here since..... I don't even know since when. You don't want to take part of it then don't bother posting, please.

Avatar image for PBSnipes
PBSnipes

14621

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#13 PBSnipes
Member since 2007 • 14621 Posts
And since you defied me to do it: Fallout 3 isn't art. While Beth did a great job with the graphics and atmosphere of the game, but as I said in my previous post a game is the sum of its parts, and the gameplay and writing in Fallout 3 simply aren't good enough. The scaling enemies don't work due to the variety of weapons (ie you can go from fighting raiders with hunting rifles to raiders with rocket launchers in a heartbeat), the FPS elements are weak and I found much of the writing to be hackneyed. A good game, but not good enough for me to consider it art.
Avatar image for sonicmj1
sonicmj1

9130

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 18

User Lists: 0

#14 sonicmj1
Member since 2003 • 9130 Posts

If video games are art, as you say, then why haven't attitudes changed, as you suggest?

It's not for lack of trying. There are some very insightful games that experiment with the medium in interesting ways. Video games even have their own field of academic study ("ludology"). Games have even been used as the basis of art projects, and some works created by artists have been demonstrated in galleries.

For games to become more accepted, they need to become more diverse and approachable to markets that gaming currently doesn't tend to reach, except as toys. If the reach of titles like Bejeweled, Peggle, or Wii Sports is to be counted, then gaming already has very widespread acceptance. If not, titles of greater emotional complexity need to be produced that reach the hearts and minds of women and adults in ways that don't rest on violence and aggression. One could argue that this took place with The Sims, even, or, to reach further back, with Myst.

I'm all for arguing for the sake of arguing, but the 'games as art' debate is one I find very, very tiring, because for it to have any value, it's a definitions argument that rarely progresses beyond that.

Avatar image for lolwotrickroll
lolwotrickroll

1185

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#15 lolwotrickroll
Member since 2008 • 1185 Posts
sorry I dint read the whole thing, but heres my opinion to generate some talk: videogames are the same as movies and music. they're entertainment. some videogames are art, and some aren't. the same goes for movies and music. can you honestly say that EVERY movie and EVERY song is art? NO. there are the perfect examples of entertainment that shine as art, and there are those really bad samples of videogames, music, and movies that do not contribute to art. my opinion FTW
Avatar image for mynameisdumb
mynameisdumb

3647

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#16 mynameisdumb
Member since 2003 • 3647 Posts

And since you defied me to do it: Fallout 3 isn't art. While Beth did a great job with the graphics and atmosphere of the game, but as I said in my previous post a game is the sum of its parts, and the gameplay and writing in Fallout 3 simply aren't good enough. The scaling enemies don't work due to the variety of weapons (ie you can go from fighting raiders with hunting rifles to raiders with rocket launchers in a heartbeat), the FPS elements are weak and I found much of the writing to be hackneyed. A good game, but not good enough for me to consider it art.PBSnipes

I would entirely agree that a game is as good as the sum of its parts. However, that philosophy doesn't apply to art in my opinion. The movie No Country For Old Men had awkward pacing and plot structure (for example, SPOILERS!!! The protagonist trying to take down the serial killer gets killed randomly by a group of thugs instead of having the usual climactic battle with the antagonist END SPOILERS!!!). However, these slight faults (at least when being compared to a traditional movie) are irrelevant when you look at what the movie brings, which is (arguably) a masterpiece.

On the same strand of thought, I could find faults in any video game. Braid was very short, Bioshock's combat was a bit clunky and a bit repetitive, etc. No game, movie, or anything is perfect, and therefore I don't believe an item HAS to be perfect to be art. Fallout 3's landscapes and atmosphere were enough to classify it as art in my mind, and minor faults don't detract from that in my opinion.

Avatar image for Nerd_Man
Nerd_Man

13819

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#17 Nerd_Man
Member since 2007 • 13819 Posts

Playing video games is not art, but video games is an art form that we enjoy.

Art is basically anything that we as humans create. It's no longer just canvas and paint, art has such a wide range of abilities.
For video games, it take a team of artists, designers, and great thinkers and storytellers to make a creation of their very own, and call it their own work. That's art, and people who think otherwise don't know the meaning of art.

Avatar image for mynameisdumb
mynameisdumb

3647

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#18 mynameisdumb
Member since 2003 • 3647 Posts

If video games are art, as you say, then why haven't attitudes changed, as you suggest?

It's not for lack of trying. There are some very insightful games that experiment with the medium in interesting ways. Video games even have their own field of academic study ("ludology"). Games have even been used as the basis of art projects, and some works created by artists have been demonstrated in galleries.

For games to become more accepted, they need to become more diverse and approachable to markets that gaming currently doesn't tend to reach, except as toys. If the reach of titles like Bejeweled, Peggle, or Wii Sports is to be counted, then gaming already has very widespread acceptance. If not, titles of greater emotional complexity need to be produced that reach the hearts and minds of women and adults in ways that don't rest on violence and aggression. One could argue that this took place with The Sims, even, or, to reach further back, with Myst.

I'm all for arguing for the sake of arguing, but the 'games as art' debate is one I find very, very tiring, because for it to have any value, it's a definitions argument that rarely progresses beyond that.

sonicmj1

Just because attitudes haven't changed doesn't mean that video games aren't art. Most famous artists weren't famous until they were dead and well into the future, was their work not art until it was discovered? Does something need widespread approval to be considered art? I don't think so.

I also agree with you on about everything else you said. As I mentioned, video games like Wii Sports are trying, and working to some extent. But Wii Sports isn't what I would view as art (although art really is subjective). And yes, I agree that to reach widespread approval you need games that appeal to the masses that aren't already reached (women and adults as you said). However, widespread approval does not necessarily go hand in hand with art. While someone like Shakespeare is known worldwide and approved of for his art, plenty would claim that Tupac isn't an artist. Oftentimes, peoples' perception of him is as some gangbanger who got lucky and cashed in. However, when you read some of his lyrics you see that he really does have deep and meaningful lyrics.

So really I agree with the evidence you use to build your argument, but I have to disagree with your conclusion, that games somehow need to be widespread to become art. My logic in my original post was that if games BECAME art, they would be more likely to become widespread through all demographics.

Avatar image for mynameisdumb
mynameisdumb

3647

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#19 mynameisdumb
Member since 2003 • 3647 Posts
[QUOTE="Sword-Demon"]

oh god... who do you think is going to read that wall of text?

verbalfilth

I did. If someone's willing to create a thread worth reading then it should be read. Topic creater, I agree with your points except the first few lines where you state that some games are not art...(superman 64). I believe all games good or bad are art. If a child paints a picture that is pretty horrible and straight forward and compared against Michael Angelo's pieta it doesn't automatically mean that the child's work isn't art...any creativity that has been been poured by an individual into a work is art in my opinion. Other than that... very good read.

You pointed out the one thing I wrote that I actually had trouble deciding for myself. How does one classify art, and where do you draw the line? I still don't know whether to consider a game like, say, Left 4 Dead as art. Great game, but is it art? I don't know. While I agree that anything someone puts work into could be construed as art, I don't think it necessarily is. For example, any average movie cash-in game. Or a game like Madden 09, which is (while incredibly fun) still almost exactly the same as it has been for six years. It's hard for me to view these as art. If a writer just writes based on a generic, premade template (like a movie cash in in video games) is it art? Or if a writer writes effectively the same story over and over, is it art (Redwall, certain Stephen King novels...)? It could be, like I said, I'm not sure. However, as it is, I'm leaning towards being more critical when judging if something is art or not. Still, you make a great point, one that I can't say I entirely disagree with.

Avatar image for KungfuKitten
KungfuKitten

27389

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 42

User Lists: 0

#20 KungfuKitten
Member since 2006 • 27389 Posts
Personally i don't think it's of any importance whether they are called art or not. Art, is a word for people who like to feel special. There is art everywhere around You. God's art or nature's art.
Avatar image for Jynxzor
Jynxzor

9313

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#21 Jynxzor
Member since 2003 • 9313 Posts
If you can put 3 black lines on a canvas and call it art and sell it to an art gallery for ungodly ammounts of cash, then video games are definatly art. More to the point you can't call some games art and other not, they either are all art or not art.