Attachment Rate vs. Console Sales - Which is more Important?

I see your point, but why should we change the rules now? Oh wait, it's because a Nintendo system is winning (and I guess that's not supposed to happen).

I'm not saying Wii has the best games, but to suddenly disregard console sales is not really fair.

Thats an impossible question to answer. Just how much profit is made from a Wii game vs a 360 game? How much profit is made when a game is sold 3 months later? 6 months? 1+ year?

For all we know most 360 users could be buying games after they've reduced their price significantly while Wii owners buy most of their games near release for higher profit margins. How do you calculate that? The 360 having a higher attachment ratio than the Wii in this scenario would still make the Wii a winner.

where did you get that the wii attach rate is 2-1? I've seen 5-1 and 4-1 from different sources.

also considering that the 360 had a year longer to sell games i'd say the wii is winning both battles right now.

For one, 6:1 attachment rate for 360 at 10 million consoles is 60 million games sold. 2:1 rate for Wii (though it should be 3, FYI) at 10 million consoles is 20 million. It would need 30 million consoles to reach 60 million games sold, not 60 million consoles. Also, Wii development costs are cheaper. A lot cheaper. I don't see the logic in the Wii needing 60 million consoles sold for a company to reach equal profit to a 360.DaAznSaN

Numbers from the rear end FTL.

Wii's attach rate is 4. 6 in the US, 5 in Europe and 2 in Japan.

And that's before games like Mario Party 8 and DQS were released in Japan, so I wouldn't be surprised if that number's higher now.

Besides, Total Software Sales > Hardware sales > Attachment rate.

For one, 6:1 attachment rate for 360 at 10 million consoles is 60 million games sold. 2:1 rate for Wii (though it should be 3, FYI) at 10 million consoles is 20 million. It would need 30 million consoles to reach 60 million games sold, not 60 million consoles. Also, Wii development costs are cheaper. A lot cheaper. I don't see the logic in the Wii needing 60 million consoles sold for a company to reach equal profit to a 360.DaAznSaN

owned

Lemmings will say attachment rate because they no longer have the console sales, and sheep will go with console sales. Cows won't say anything.Ragnarok1051

actually Cows will say:

But teh wait 3 more years!

umm the wii's att. rate is almost the 360s i dont know where you got 2:1 from, its 5:1marth678

also look at last gen too. ps2 attachrates where quite low yet they won didn't they?Ontain

I bet you're right.

In the past, console wars have always been judged by sales. And now, why is it that Wii isn't allowed to win? As soon as it started selling well, everyone tried to change the rules, so that 360 wins in all the considered areas. The 360 probably does have better games now; however, it has a big head-start.

I'm also tired of people saying we shouldn't count Wii because it isn't "next-gen." Well, PS2 and PS1 both annihilated Nintendo systems in sales, but both were graphically inferior. Why didn't we declare Nintendo or Microsoftthe winners?

[QUOTE="marth678"]umm the wii's att. rate is almost the 360s i dont know where you got 2:1 from, its 5:1htekemerald

Nintendo's Fiscal Report.

A console with low sales numbers is good for developers who want to become an established developer and garner more hype.

A console with low attachment is good for developers who want to spend less money for a more general audience to buy it, and with more licensed characters.

A console with low attachment and low sales, is good for developers to experiment and also garner a lot of hype around their product to become a system seller.

No one F$#s with Nintendo's or Microsofts first party, but with Sony there's heavy emphases on third party support that becomes a system seller all around.

Is that good enough for you?

Numbers from the rear end FTL.

Wii's attach rate is 4. 6 in the US, 5 in Europe and 2 in Japan.

And that's before games like Mario Party 8 and DQS were released in Japan, so I wouldn't be surprised if that number's higher now.

Besides, Total Software Sales > Hardware sales > Attachment rate.

Eponique

Wiis problem is it's low third party attach rate, and that's what attracts more games for the system. Iwata has talked about Nintendo calming down and leaving more space for third parties, but at the same time they are shooting of their whole wad of games (MP3,MG, SSBB)this holiday season. They should have waited until Wii has slowing down and needed a boost.

For one, 6:1 attachment rate for 360 at 10 million consoles is 60 million games sold. 2:1 rate for Wii (though it should be at least 3, FYI) at 10 million consoles is 20 million. It would need 30 million consoles to reach 60 million games sold, not 60 million consoles. Also, Wii development costs are cheaper. A lot cheaper. I don't see the logic in the Wii needing 60 million consoles sold for a company to reach equal profit to a 360. Next, 360 has been out longer. More time for people to buy games, as well as more time for a game to be budget priced. Too many factors to think of.DaAznSaN

Both.

Both measure success of a console.

The reason why the PSP is a failure is its software sales are absolutely pathetic, yet the hardware sales are not all that bad.
360 software sales are amazing, but its hardware sales are meh for what the software is.

Wii has godly hardware sales, and has great Nintendo 1st party software sales, but everything else sucks.

PS3 is struggling in all areas of sales.

That is why there is no clear cut winner.

Last gens leader is in a slump

This gens current leader is a Nintendo device and its whole market of gamers was never nice to third party before in terms of sales, and it might get evenworse with the new demographic.

The system with the best software sales, only sells in the Western world and is in a desperate need of a mesiah in Japan because the sales there are garbage.

That is why devs have started going multiplat, to much money to make these games with to many questions about which system is better for them.

[QUOTE="Eponique"]

Numbers from the rear end FTL.

Wii's attach rate is 4. 6 in the US, 5 in Europe and 2 in Japan.

And that's before games like Mario Party 8 and DQS were released in Japan, so I wouldn't be surprised if that number's higher now.

Besides, Total Software Sales > Hardware sales > Attachment rate.

Pripyat

Wiis problem is it's low third party attach rate, and that's what attracts more games for the system. Iwata has talked about Nintendo calming down and leaving more space for third parties, but at the same time they are shooting of their whole wad of games (MP3,MG, SSBB)this holiday season. They should have waited until Wii has slowing down and needed a boost.

Iwata didn't say ****.

Nintendo's plan is simple: Hype. Yes hype. They had a terrific launch with Zelda, Wii Sports (I'm talking about the real world... y'know outside GS), that's when the hype begun. Iwata's plan is the squish all the major first party titles into '07. Since when did we have Zelda, Mario, Smash and Metroid all in one year? Iwata wants people to continue playing their Wiis. To keep the hype going. People will buy Wiis if they like what they're hearing and what they're seeing.

When it's all said and done, 17 million consoles will be sold by the end of 2007. With not much first party titles in 08, third parties will get more room. The 17 million consoles sold will look very attractive to the developer, not to mention Nintendo barely has anything planned for 2008. 3rd Parties will have a lot of breating space.

Wii is cheap and easy to develop for, with a large userbase (which will end up having more total software sales than the 360 by the year's end. You can quote me on that). Which developer wouldn't want to develop for the Wii?

also look at last gen too. ps2 attachrates where quite low yet they won didn't they?Ontain

Wiis problem is it's low third party attach rate ...

Pripyat

3rd party have nothing to complain about there though. they have yet to release many quality titles. heck there are plenty of ps2 titles last gen that probably had bigger budgets than most of the wii 3rd party so far.

[QUOTE="Pripyat"][QUOTE="Eponique"]

Numbers from the rear end FTL.

Wii's attach rate is 4. 6 in the US, 5 in Europe and 2 in Japan.

And that's before games like Mario Party 8 and DQS were released in Japan, so I wouldn't be surprised if that number's higher now.

Besides, Total Software Sales > Hardware sales > Attachment rate.

Eponique

Wiis problem is it's low third party attach rate, and that's what attracts more games for the system. Iwata has talked about Nintendo calming down and leaving more space for third parties, but at the same time they are shooting of their whole wad of games (MP3,MG, SSBB)this holiday season. They should have waited until Wii has slowing down and needed a boost.

Iwata didn't say ****.

Nintendo's plan is simple: Hype. Yes hype. They had a terrific launch with Zelda, Wii Sports (I'm talking about the real world... y'know outside GS), that's when the hype begun. Iwata's plan is the squish all the major first party titles into '07. Since when did we have Zelda, Mario, Smash and Metroid all in one year? Iwata wants people to continue playing their Wiis. To keep the hype going. People will buy Wiis if they like what they're hearing and what they're seeing.

When it's all said and done, 17 million consoles will be sold by the end of 2007. With not much first party titles in 08, third parties will get more room. The 17 million consoles sold will look very attractive to the developer, not to mention Nintendo barely has anything planned for 2008. 3rd Parties will have a lot of breating space.

Wii is cheap and easy to develop for, with a large userbase (which will end up having more total software sales than the 360 by the year's end. You can quote me on that). Which developer wouldn't want to develop for the Wii?

Well, keep dreaming.

[QUOTE="Eponique"][QUOTE="Pripyat"][QUOTE="Eponique"]

Numbers from the rear end FTL.

Wii's attach rate is 4. 6 in the US, 5 in Europe and 2 in Japan.

And that's before games like Mario Party 8 and DQS were released in Japan, so I wouldn't be surprised if that number's higher now.

Besides, Total Software Sales > Hardware sales > Attachment rate.

Pripyat

Wiis problem is it's low third party attach rate, and that's what attracts more games for the system. Iwata has talked about Nintendo calming down and leaving more space for third parties, but at the same time they are shooting of their whole wad of games (MP3,MG, SSBB)this holiday season. They should have waited until Wii has slowing down and needed a boost.

Iwata didn't say ****.

Nintendo's plan is simple: Hype. Yes hype. They had a terrific launch with Zelda, Wii Sports (I'm talking about the real world... y'know outside GS), that's when the hype begun. Iwata's plan is the squish all the major first party titles into '07. Since when did we have Zelda, Mario, Smash and Metroid all in one year? Iwata wants people to continue playing their Wiis. To keep the hype going. People will buy Wiis if they like what they're hearing and what they're seeing.

When it's all said and done, 17 million consoles will be sold by the end of 2007. With not much first party titles in 08, third parties will get more room. The 17 million consoles sold will look very attractive to the developer, not to mention Nintendo barely has anything planned for 2008. 3rd Parties will have a lot of breating space.

Wii is cheap and easy to develop for, with a large userbase (which will end up having more total software sales than the 360 by the year's end. You can quote me on that). Which developer wouldn't want to develop for the Wii?

Well, keep dreaming.

Will do.

umm the wii's att. rate is almost the 360s i dont know where you got 2:1 from, its 5:1marth678

Lemmings will say attachment rate because they no longer have the console sales, and sheep will go with console sales. Cows won't say anything.Ragnarok1051

Major ownage... too much truth in that last post for some to handle...

Buuuuut, games will determine who the 360...I mean the winner is.

[QUOTE="marth678"]umm the wii's att. rate is almost the 360s i dont know where you got 2:1 from, its 5:1slduncanlaw

.... Well one thing going against the wii is older gamers.I am talking 40+. I know at least 2 families who have bought a wii, and 1 game. Wii play. YES I know, it is insane, but some people will only have wii Sports, and Wii play... maybe forever.

2:1 rate for Wii (though it should be at least 3, FYI) at 10 million consoles is 20 million. .DaAznSaN

where did you get that number??

thats an interesting question TC.

if a console doesent have a big userbase then the attachment ratio isnt really that important. ure better off going after the machine with the most hardware sales...even if its attachment ratio is a bit lower. so hardware sales are important in that regard. the more ppl who have the hardware, the more ppl my game can reach. for an extreme example....if a console only sells 5 units...but everyone buys 1000 games for it....id still prefer to make something that sold more hardware....like a PS2.

the attachment ratio is more one of those dam lies/stastics things. its easy to say "oh yeah...our console has a ratio of 8:1" but if that console has a small userbase compared to the competition then who gives a crap?

the 2 main figures that should be looked at are

1) total hardware sales for a platform

2) total software sales over a certain period for a platform. this should also be broken down into the different types of games that sell for that platform.

total software sales over a period are the most important figures to note. it shows the activity of a platforms market and it shows the best times to release a game onto the market for that platform.

thats an interesting question TC.

if a console doesent have a big userbase then the attachment ratio isnt really that important. ure better off going after the machine with the most hardware sales...even if its attachment ratio is a bit lower. so hardware sales are important in that regard. the more ppl who have the hardware, the more ppl my game can reach. for an extreme example....if a console only sells 5 units...but everyone buys 1000 games for it....id still prefer to make something that sold more hardware....like a PS2.

the attachment ratio is more one of those dam lies/stastics things. its easy to say "oh yeah...our console has a ratio of 8:1" but if that console has a small userbase compared to the competition then who gives a crap?

the 2 main figures that should be looked at are

1) total hardware sales for a platform

2) total software sales over a certain period for a platform. this should also be broken down into the different types of games that sell for that platform.

total software sales over a period are the most important figures to note. it shows the activity of a platforms market and it shows the best times to release a game onto the market for that platform.

osan0

Attach rates are huge. It's horrifying to me that the 360 has such strong software sales, but only because I'm a Microsoft detractor.

However, Wii undeniably >> 360 in terms of System Wars credentials. Personally, I think it's a mix of the two.

[QUOTE="Pripyat"][QUOTE="Eponique"]

Numbers from the rear end FTL.

Wii's attach rate is 4. 6 in the US, 5 in Europe and 2 in Japan.

And that's before games like Mario Party 8 and DQS were released in Japan, so I wouldn't be surprised if that number's higher now.

Besides, Total Software Sales > Hardware sales > Attachment rate.

Eponique

Wiis problem is it's low third party attach rate, and that's what attracts more games for the system. Iwata has talked about Nintendo calming down and leaving more space for third parties, but at the same time they are shooting of their whole wad of games (MP3,MG, SSBB)this holiday season. They should have waited until Wii has slowing down and needed a boost.

Iwata didn't say ****.

Nintendo's plan is simple: Hype. Yes hype. They had a terrific launch with Zelda, Wii Sports (I'm talking about the real world... y'know outside GS), that's when the hype begun. Iwata's plan is the squish all the major first party titles into '07. Since when did we have Zelda, Mario, Smash and Metroid all in one year? Iwata wants people to continue playing their Wiis. To keep the hype going. People will buy Wiis if they like what they're hearing and what they're seeing.

When it's all said and done, 17 million consoles will be sold by the end of 2007. With not much first party titles in 08, third parties will get more room. The 17 million consoles sold will look very attractive to the developer, not to mention Nintendo barely has anything planned for 2008. 3rd Parties will have a lot of breating space.

Wii is cheap and easy to develop for, with a large userbase (which will end up having more total software sales than the 360 by the year's end. You can quote me on that). Which developer wouldn't want to develop for the Wii?

should be total console sales vs total software sales

attachment rates, like percentages, can be misleading in the long run.

[QUOTE="Eponique"][QUOTE="Pripyat"][QUOTE="Eponique"]

Numbers from the rear end FTL.

Wii's attach rate is 4. 6 in the US, 5 in Europe and 2 in Japan.

And that's before games like Mario Party 8 and DQS were released in Japan, so I wouldn't be surprised if that number's higher now.

Besides, Total Software Sales > Hardware sales > Attachment rate.

DivergeUnify

Wiis problem is it's low third party attach rate, and that's what attracts more games for the system. Iwata has talked about Nintendo calming down and leaving more space for third parties, but at the same time they are shooting of their whole wad of games (MP3,MG, SSBB)this holiday season. They should have waited until Wii has slowing down and needed a boost.

Iwata didn't say ****.

Nintendo's plan is simple: Hype. Yes hype. They had a terrific launch with Zelda, Wii Sports (I'm talking about the real world... y'know outside GS), that's when the hype begun. Iwata's plan is the squish all the major first party titles into '07. Since when did we have Zelda, Mario, Smash and Metroid all in one year? Iwata wants people to continue playing their Wiis. To keep the hype going. People will buy Wiis if they like what they're hearing and what they're seeing.

When it's all said and done, 17 million consoles will be sold by the end of 2007. With not much first party titles in 08, third parties will get more room. The 17 million consoles sold will look very attractive to the developer, not to mention Nintendo barely has anything planned for 2008. 3rd Parties will have a lot of breating space.

Wii is cheap and easy to develop for, with a large userbase (which will end up having more total software sales than the 360 by the year's end. You can quote me on that). Which developer wouldn't want to develop for the Wii?

Are we talking short run or long run? If long run I :lol: at you.

I think the best way to look at it is this:

People say "winning" a lot without being more specific. If you want to say that ms is winning in terms of attachment rate or profit go ahead. If somebody decides to simply say "winning" and not explain what they mean by that then don't bother posting, just ignore those people.

If your looking to change the definition of "winning": Don't bother. Everyone will look at it subjectively no matter what you do.

As a manticore... I would say attach rate, to a point. You need to have a userbase where there's enough variety that different types of games will fly, but selling consoles to people who are only going to buy a game a year is an exercise in futility. Devs want you to buy their games, if the Wii userbase (I am guilty of this already) has only bought first party games, then it doesnt' matter if it sells 150 million to the devs, because that's just 150 million consoles Nintendo has made profit off (unlike Sony and MS), and 150 million worth of first party games. Nintendo the one-man orchestra.

Sony and MS on the other hand, need a userbase that buys games, not because they make money off the console, but because they need the software sales to offset their own losses, but if their users buy a lot of games, the 3rd party devs are happy. Devs on your platform = sell more consoles = sell more games = more money for MS and Sony.

I would say attach rate is more important than console sales, but they go hand-in-hand, so while one is important, the other isn't unimportant.

In SW, we argue about who is going to "win" the console war. Traditionally, the end number to declare victory is the amount of console hardware is sold.

But look, consoles aren't developed to make a profit off of. Their developed to make a profit off of software - that is why Sony, MS and Nintendo are in the business to begin with. And of course, it's why the 3rd Party Dev are here.

So, what is more important to those that sell the software? The number of consoles out there or the number of "real consumers" - that is the number of people who own the console and are participating in purchasing software for it.

Take the 360 vs. Wii. For argument's sake, let's say they the 360 has 10 million consoles sold, and the Wii has 10.1 million consoles sold. Who is winning? Obviously, from Nintendo's position they are.

But are they really?

Add this to the equation: The 360 has an attachment rate of 6:1, and the Wii has an attachment rate of 2:1, that is, number of games and accessories sold to every console sold. Now who's winning? From a game developer's perspective the 360 looks like a better console to develope for. The Wii would need nearly 30 million consoles sold for a developer to put them on an equal profit opportunity as the 360.

So at the end of this, if we only calculate the number of hardware sales, can we truly say who the winner of this generation is?

EDITED FOR: My mathmatical stupidity. slduncanlaw

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Wii's attachment rate is more like 6.5 in the US, 6.1 in Europe, and 3.9 in Japan. The 360's attachment rate is not much higher (and is in fact lower than the Wii's in the US and Europe, at least when it was last measured).