Avant-Garde GOTY Nominations

What games have been released (or will be released) this year that you feel meet most or all of these requirements to be considered a contender for "avant-garde game of the year?" I'll be comparing the results from System Wars, General Game Discussion, and Avant-Game to see what games people feel meet these strict qualifications.

1. Games that Don't Rely on putting bullets into bad guys

Example - super mario galaxy, portal

reasoning - "shoot the bad guy" is one of the most overused mechanics in all of gaming right now, and frankly it has gotten boring. FPS titles update every year like sports games - enough is enough.

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2. Games that have a beautiful Art Sty-le

Example - disgaea, gears of war, super mario galaxy

reasoning - schizophrenic art sty-le or attempted sty-le that lack polish detract from a game. A consistent, effective, well-executed product requires an artist's touch.

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3. Games in an Underappreciated Genre

Example - zack & wiki

reasoning - certain dying or dead genres - WRPGs, Point-and-Click Adventure, platformers - still have a lot to offer. By being unsaturated, these genres can offer something that feels fresh, even if the genres themselves are old as dirt.

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4. Games with Real Character

Example - zak & wiki, sam & max

reasoning - what good is a game if it doens't offer something unique to provide a memorable experience? The designer's fingerprints should be all over such a work.

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5. Games that are Fun to Play

Example - portal, disgaea, pokemon

reasoning - too many games are (or become) a chore to play, your incentive to finish the game is nill, and the replay value is low because there's simply no point.

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6. Games that are Not a Commercial Shill

example - dracula x chronicles, stalker

reasoning - many games are over-marketed, and are simply the products of a company, rather than its art. Titles that are used to generate licensed product sales, serialized, or bundled with wallet-draining pricing models (monthly fees or microtransactions at launch) lose points here.

Mass Effect ticks those boxes if you don't play the Soldier class ;)

Portal, absolutely.

Memorable, unique, innovative, and it doesn't rely on capping people.

[QUOTE="Newnab"]

Mass Effect ticks those boxes if you don't play the Soldier class ;)

Meu2k7

Problem is Bioware have enver been good at balance, I gaurentee Soldier will be the "Jedi Class" of Mass Effect :P

Well it sounds balanced enough to me. I'm playing Sentinel when I get the game, which means I get a few of the force power thingies to throw people around, and I get some engineer skills like things that make all the enemy weapons blow up in their hands and do damage and turn bad guys against each other and stuff.

I think the soldier class will be the cornerstone of the really casual player who tries ME. Followed by the class that's a mix of Soldier and Adept.

Offering something for everyone doesn't seem like reason to knock a game.

This is not a discussion thread for Mass Effect, please remain on topic.

This is "Avant-Garde GOTY" not your standard GOTY - games must meet as many of the criteria as possible to be considered. The goal of this is to reward unique, artistic, creative, innovative titles, many of which fly under the radar, rather than to hand trophies that are essentially bought to overly-commercialized, serialized, and assembly-lined titles.

This is not a discussion thread for Mass Effect, please remain on topic.

subrosian

This is not a discussion thread for Mass Effect, please remain on topic.

subrosian

You don't want us to discuss the potential GOTY nominations?

Do you know what a Discussion forum is?

[QUOTE="subrosian"]
This is not a discussion thread for Mass Effect, please remain on topic.

Newnab

2. Mass-Effect is a heavily commercial title, its pre-built trilogy and system-selling utilization, combined with allocations for significant advertising only cement this status further.

3. Regardless of whether you "have" to use a gun at all times, Mass Effect's designers have put significant time and effort into making its gun-mechanics and "shoot the bad guy" core gameplay strong. Ignoring that this core gameplay exists does not to change that it is a significant part of the game.

Will this prevent it from being considered for AVANT-GARDE GOTY? Perhaps, it depends on the strength of other nominations, however only meeting half of the requirements do not bode well for it.

Please remain on topic as to how it meets the requirements of the OP, from the best I can see, Mass Effect is a rather poor candidate for *avant-garde* game of the year.

1. Hybrid-FPS genre has been heavily saturated in recent monthssubrosian

Fair enough , I disagree with 2. 3. and 5.

Meu2k7

That is irrelevant to the discussion, please simply list candidates that meet the requirements I have laid out, join in the discussion of how the nominees fit those requirements, or refrain from posting, thank you.

God of War 2beavisofcod2

Would you mind discussing a little bit further on this one? How does Kratos (as a character) define himself in GoW2's story in a way he didn't in God of War? What changes do you feel God of War 2 brought to the table for the series, and how did it change the gameplay experience?

Portal, absolutely.

Memorable, unique, innovative, and it doesn't rely on capping people.

jethrovegas

Do you feel Portal's "advanced puzzles" were a welcome addition to the gameplay, or does having completed the story make them feel a bit "tacked on"?

I think Disgaea should be nominated, the game is funny, the gameplay is funny in it's own way too, with exploding the prinnes, unique ways to beat battles, stacking characters, geostones, it's fun, good story, great artstyle and characters.

I've only played Disgaea 2 though.

[QUOTE="Meu2k7"]

Fair enough , I disagree with 2. 3. and 5.

subrosian

That is irrelevant to the discussion, please simply list candidates that meet the requirements I have laid out, join in the discussion of how the nominees fit those requirements, or refrain from posting, thank you.

Fine Fine I cleared it up:

The Witcher

1 - No bullets, just 2 Swords an Axe and a dagger , on and alchemy/magic :D
2 - What can I say , its not technically the best but its got a great atmosphere, pretty good for a heavily upgraded 2002 engine.
3 - WRPGs ... nothing has come close to it since NeverWinter Nights 1.
4 - Dark Story , great characters, humerous aswell at times, Excellent Theme.
5 - Arnt all games fun to play? Sticking to the RPG genre this game is more fun than most WRPGs.
6 - Other than Poland this would apply.

Mario Galaxy

1 - No bullets, unless you count player 2 as shooting stars :P
2 - Great, especially for the Wii , very vibrant and colourful.
3 - Platformer ....
4 - Mario ... enough said?
5 - Again .... Mario .... main platforming franchise ... successor to Mario 64.
6 - Oh wait ...
Oh I just realized ... Commercially shill removes alot ..... because most hyped games are based on past achivements , so I would be forced to blindly name new IPs ... and Its unlikely a new IP by a new dev team is going to get GOTY this year.

I think Disgaea should be nominated, the game is funny, the gameplay is funny in it's own way too, with exploding the prinnes, unique ways to beat battles, stacking characters, geostones, it's fun, good story, great artstyle and characters.

I've only played Disgaea 2 though.

rikkustrife

I'm not actually certain myself how much Afternoon of Darkness adds to the original title, but GameSpot did consider it the definitive version of the game.

this is way to deep for SW. go to GGD.

the people here dont want your fancy "avant-garde" .... we dont take kindly to your type :x.

+ i cant really add anything because i havnt played any games released this year...

lol, i need a nex-gen console + more spare time :cry:

[QUOTE="subrosian"][QUOTE="Meu2k7"]

Fair enough , I disagree with 2. 3. and 5.

Meu2k7

That is irrelevant to the discussion, please simply list candidates that meet the requirements I have laid out, join in the discussion of how the nominees fit those requirements, or refrain from posting, thank you.

Fine Fine I cleared it up:

The Witcher

1 - No bullets, just 2 Swords an Axe and a dagger , on and alchemy/magic :D
2 - What can I say , its not technically the best but its got a great atmosphere, pretty good for a heavily upgraded 2002 engine.
3 - WRPGs ... nothing has come close to it since NeverWinter Nights 1.
4 - Dark Story , great characters, humerous aswell at times, Excellent Theme.
5 - Arnt all games fun to play? Sticking to the RPG genre this game is more fun than most WRPGs.
6 - Other than Poland this would apply.

Mario Galaxy

1 - No bullets, unless you count player 2 as shooting stars :P
2 - Great, especially for the Wii , very vibrant and colourful.
3 - Platformer ....
4 - Mario ... enough said?
5 - Again .... Mario .... main platforming franchise ... successor to Mario 64.
6 - Oh wait ...
Oh I just realized ... Commercially shill removes alot ..... because most hyped games are based on past achivements , so I would be forced to blindly name new IPs ... and Its unlikely a new IP by a new dev team is going to get GOTY this year.

The Witcher and SMG are strong candidates. If you read the OP - a game does not have to meet all of the strict qualifications, but if a title manages to meet more qualifications than any other title, while still pulling off an amazingly polished gameplay experience, then it's worth noting.

I could care less what is the "actual GOTY", I'd rather recognize something unique such as The Witcher.

And yes, I think System Wars will be the forum that has the hardest time stepping away from commercial, serialized, "system sellers" to look at more unique, less-noticed titles, simply because it is the nature of System Wars to focus on these things. If anything, it's a challenge - can SW think in new ways? If the rules of the game change, can SW posters adapt and find a new title, system, et cetera to back?

[QUOTE="rikkustrife"]

I think Disgaea should be nominated, the game is funny, the gameplay is funny in it's own way too, with exploding the prinnes, unique ways to beat battles, stacking characters, geostones, it's fun, good story, great artstyle and characters.

I've only played Disgaea 2 though.

subrosian

I'm not actually certain myself how much Afternoon of Darkness adds to the original title, but GameSpot did consider it the definitive version of the game.

I know it has Etna mode, which I think is as long as Laharl's story, and is Etna's story if Laharl didn't wake up at the beginning.
I'm not positive on the length though, that's just what I heard on the afternoon of darkness forums.

You yourself said that WRPG was a suitable genre.

Mass Effect is far from commercial shill. It'll likely sell less than Bioshock.

And just because a gun features in a game doesn't mean it falls under your first point of being all about "popping caps in guys". Infact, if Bioware's past efforts are anything to go by, the combat will not be the focus at all, yet alone the actual potential shooting you can do in the combat.

Basically, this thread is just you saying "I think these games are 'avant-garde' so STFU everyone and be like me or fail"? Seeing as you tried to get us to stop talking about it? Different people have different opinions, and a forum isn't just some podium for you to stand up and make yourself feel better about yourself by announcing you like games you consider to be "high culture" as far as video games go.

this is way to deep for SW. go to GGD.

the people here dont want your fancy "avant-garde" .... we dont take kindly to your type :x.

+ i cant really add anything because i havnt played any games released this year...

lol, i need a nex-gen console + more spare time :cry:

hip-hop-cola2

I'm guessing you don't know who I am, but I love the sense of humor! If I remember you correctly, you were on Ask the Mods the other day, but I can't recall exactly what for. In any case, that's a damn shame, because there were quite a few great titles out this year - and you don't even need a next-gen console - the Nintendo DS library grew substantially over the past twelve months.

You yourself said that WRPG was a suitable genre.

Mass Effect is far from commercial shill. It'll likely sell less than Bioshock.

And just because a gun features in a game doesn't mean it falls under your first point of being all about "popping caps in guys". Infact, if Bioware's past efforts are anything to go by, the combat will not be the focus at all, yet alone the actual potential shooting you can do in the combat.

Basically, this thread is just you saying "I think these games are 'avant-garde' so STFU everyone and be like me or fail"? Seeing as you tried to get us to stop talking about it? Different people have different opinions, and a forum isn't just some podium for you to stand up and make yourself feel better about yourself by announcing you like games you consider to be "high culture" as far as video games go.

Newnab

I thought you wanted to discuss Mass-Effect? I played devil's advocate and tossed you some counter-points to your title. You bad-mouth me when I don't want you to simply discuss one title, you bad-mouth me when I try and discuss a title with you. If you're not happy with the thread, you don't have to participate, however, it's one thread in SW.

If you don't care about art in gaming, there are plenty of other threads in SW - no one is trying to make you feel bad for your taste here. If being challenged to defend your nomination is too much for you, I encourage you to seek a thread where you feel more comfortable.

There is absolutely zero need for hostility here.

[QUOTE="Newnab"]

You yourself said that WRPG was a suitable genre.

Mass Effect is far from commercial shill. It'll likely sell less than Bioshock.

And just because a gun features in a game doesn't mean it falls under your first point of being all about "popping caps in guys". Infact, if Bioware's past efforts are anything to go by, the combat will not be the focus at all, yet alone the actual potential shooting you can do in the combat.

Basically, this thread is just you saying "I think these games are 'avant-garde' so STFU everyone and be like me or fail"? Seeing as you tried to get us to stop talking about it? Different people have different opinions, and a forum isn't just some podium for you to stand up and make yourself feel better about yourself by announcing you like games you consider to be "high culture" as far as video games go.

subrosian

I thought you wanted to discuss Mass-Effect, I played devil's advocate and tossed you some counter-points to your title. You bad-mouth me when I don't want you to simply discuss one title, you bad-mouth me when I try and discuss a title with you. If you're not happy with the thread, you don't have to participate, however, it's one thread in SW.

If you don't care about art in gaming, there are plenty of other threads in SW - no one is trying to make you feel bad for your taste here. If being challenged to defend your nomination is too much for you, I encourage you to seek a thread where you feel more comfortable.

There is absolutely zero need for hostility here.

To me it seemed more like you announced what games you think are avant garde, and as soon as another game came up, maybe one you didn't agree with, you told us to shut up about it.

Then you went back and edited your posts to put some counter points in, which I just responded to, along with my general feelings on how you've treated the thread thus far.

[QUOTE="subrosian"][QUOTE="rikkustrife"]

I think Disgaea should be nominated, the game is funny, the gameplay is funny in it's own way too, with exploding the prinnes, unique ways to beat battles, stacking characters, geostones, it's fun, good story, great artstyle and characters.

I've only played Disgaea 2 though.

rikkustrife

I'm not actually certain myself how much Afternoon of Darkness adds to the original title, but GameSpot did consider it the definitive version of the game.

I know it has Etna mode, which I think is as long as Laharl's story, and is Etna's story if Laharl didn't wake up at the beginning.
I'm not positive on the length though, that's just what I heard on the afternoon of darkness forums.

That sounds pretty cool, I wish I knew the length though. If we could definitively say "Disgaea has _____ amount of new content" it would be nice, since we know games like SMG, Portal, Mass Effect, The Witcher, et cetera are entirely new content.

Can the power of prinnys overcome being an improved, updated, polished port?

To me it seemed more like you announced what games you think are avant garde, and as soon as another game came up, maybe one you didn't agree with, you told us to shut up about it.

Then you went back and edited your posts to put some counter points in, which I just responded to, along with my general feelings on how you've treated the thread thus far.

Newnab

As I said, if you don't like my criteria, you don't have to participate, please don't derail conversation for others who wish to play by the rules. Not everything on SW is meant for everyone, and there are gamers who subscribe to the tastes of being an art-gamer. I'm not placing a value judgment on this, I'm simply asking you to find somewhere you feel more comfortable.

[QUOTE="beavisofcod2"]God of War 2subrosian

Would you mind discussing a little bit further on this one? How does Kratos (as a character) define himself in GoW2's story in a way he didn't in God of War? What changes do you feel God of War 2 brought to the table for the series, and how did it change the gameplay experience?

well in god of war 1 he's basically killing for himself (to end his nightmares and feelings of guilt), attains god status by killing ares (the one he sold his soul to), in god of war 2 the gods betray him and he becomes a mortal again (everything he fought for in 1 is gone, but he's independent at least), he wants to kill all the gods instead and allies with the earth, in the process becoming more human... although story wise it's basically the same thing with different enemies

but it fills all the categories:

-no bullets (set in greek myth), and has a great fighting system too

-has a very impressive art-style that syncs perfectly with the level design and the themes of greek mythology

-platformers aren't nearly as popular anymore (especially ones with puzzle-level design)

-Kratos could've just been a brute with no personality but they've fleshed him out with motivations and personality over 2 games, he can stand on his own two feet basically

-God of War 2 is pretty hard to beat for platformer killfest fun, the levels are challenging too so you gain satisfaction from just getting from point A to B

-God of War 2, though a sequel, is like empire strikes back - it's even better than the first game, and by no means does it sell out (unless you consider the first game a sell-out)

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

[QUOTE="beavisofcod2"]God of War 2beavisofcod2

Would you mind discussing a little bit further on this one? How does Kratos (as a character) define himself in GoW2's story in a way he didn't in God of War? What changes do you feel God of War 2 brought to the table for the series, and how did it change the gameplay experience?

well in god of war 1 he's basically killing for himself (to end his nightmares and feelings of guilt), attains god status by killing ares (the one he sold his soul to), in god of war 2 the gods betray him and he becomes a mortal again (everything he fought for in 1 is gone, but he's independent at least), he wants to kill all the gods instead and allies with the earth, in the process becoming more human... although story wise it's basically the same thing with different enemies

but it fills all the categories:

-no bullets (set in greek myth), and has a great fighting system too

-has a very impressive art-style that syncs perfectly with the level design and the themes of greek mythology

-platformers aren't nearly as popular anymore (especially ones with puzzle-level design)

-Kratos could've just been a brute with no personality but they've fleshed him out with motivations and personality over 2 games, he can stand on his own two feet basically

-God of War 2 is pretty hard to beat for platformer killfest fun, the levels are challenging too so you gain satisfaction from just getting from point A to B

-God of War 2, though a sequel, is like empire strikes back - it's even better than the first game, and by no means does it sell out (unless you consider the first game a sell-out)

Cool, that's certainly a strong nomination for God of War 2. I'd consider it a bit of a commercialized title (personally) but that's the hardest category for any game to meet. Even if its commercial status is in question, five-out-of-six is a strong contender.

HeavenlySword is one example, I don't know if it heavily marketed or not, but it was beautiful in every way, adding Nariko ( a female character for brutal action ) with her beautiful body making the combat feels like a dance was so great to experience, the story is unique, short and epic at the same time, the artstyle is great, the environment, the facials of each character, if I can add, the english accent also makes the game so cool, it is a game that everybody have to experience.HAZE-Unit

It was heavily marketed but did look great. the female action hero is not exactly rare these days. I don't see why they have an english accent either. while isn't not a put the bullets into the enemy game it's close to that. an okay choice though.

[QUOTE="HAZE-Unit"]HeavenlySword is one example, I don't know if it heavily marketed or not, but it was beautiful in every way, adding Nariko ( a female character for brutal action ) with her beautiful body making the combat feels like a dance was so great to experience, the story is unique, short and epic at the same time, the artstyle is great, the environment, the facials of each character, if I can add, the english accent also makes the game so cool, it is a game that everybody have to experience.Ontain

It was heavily marketed but did look great. the female action hero is not exactly rare these days. I don't see why they have an english accent either. while isn't not a put the bullets into the enemy game it's close to that. an okay choice though.

The commercial angle is very difficult for more mainstream titles to avoid, but Heavenly Swod is certainly a somewhat different title. Little Big Planet is the PS3's far more artsy title, but it likely won't drop this year.

i have to nominate halo 3elite_ferns1

How does Halo 3 fit the criteria I listed in the OP?

[QUOTE="elite_ferns1"]i have to nominate halo 3subrosian

How does Halo 3 fit the criteria I listed in the OP?

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

[QUOTE="elite_ferns1"]i have to nominate halo 3Jandurin

How does Halo 3 fit the criteria I listed in the OP?

Same question :P, how do those fit the criteria?

[QUOTE="HAZE-Unit"]HeavenlySword is one example, I don't know if it heavily marketed or not, but it was beautiful in every way, adding Nariko ( a female character for brutal action ) with her beautiful body making the combat feels like a dance was so great to experience, the story is unique, short and epic at the same time, the artstyle is great, the environment, the facials of each character, if I can add, the english accent also makes the game so cool, it is a game that everybody have to experience.Ontain

It was heavily marketed but did look great. the female action hero is not exactly rare these days. I don't see why they have an english accent either. while isn't not a put the bullets into the enemy game it's close to that. an okay choice though.

"Avant-Garde"? I believe you are asking a bit too much out of the users in this forum subrosian. How would someone even come across such a concept in their daily lives? I sure didn't until I took my art history classes. Perhaps a working definition is a good start.

For a game to be considered avant-garde it would need to push the bounderies of what we consider gaming (in the same way that the Arts and Crafts movement, Futurism, De Stijl, Bauhaus, etc., pushed the bounderies on what was considered art)at that moment in time.

Going by that definition, I would seea "non-games" like Wii Fit to be the very definition of an avant-garde video game. It pushed the bounderies of what would be considered a game and introduced a new way to experience the genre. The whole Wii control scheme in itself is avant-garde because it requires a new way to interface with games.

Now, perhaps you don't want to push the defintion of avant-garde that far. The gameplay of Portal could very well be considered avant-garde since it takes a very unique approach to the FPS experience.

In any case, perhaps this will familiarize people with what it is your asking. Judging by the posts so far, they aren't sure what you mean.

"Avant-Garde"? I believe you are asking a bit too much out of the users in this forum subrosian. How would someone even come across such a concept in their daily lives? I sure didn't until I took my art history classes. Perhaps a working definition is a good start.

For a game to be considered avant-garde it would need to push the bounderies of what we consider gaming (in the same way that the Arts and Crafts movement, Futurism, De Stijl, Bauhaus, etc., pushed the bounderies on what was considered art)at that moment in time.

Going by that definition, I would seea "non-games" like Wii Fit to be the very definition of an avant-garde video game. It pushed the bounderies of what would be considered a game and introduced a new way to experience the genre. The whole Wii control scheme in itself is avant-garde because it requires a new way to interface with games.

Now, perhaps you don't want to push the defintion of avant-garde that far. The gameplay of Portal could very well be considered avant-garde since it takes a very unique approach to the FPS experience.

In any case, perhaps this will familiarize people with what it is your asking. Judging by the posts so far, they aren't sure what you mean.

slick_gio

Good post, though I don't really agree with subrosians definition on avant-garde. The games he listed all only seem to bring relatively small innovations or just do some things really good (without really doing anything new). None of it comes close to pushing the boundaries of gaming.

I think that the best way for people to get to know avant-garde is by music.

Examples of what I would consider avant-garde myself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUfDhjjgdn4

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=475072

Avant-garde seems to be something that doesn't happen a lot in gaming. Which isn't weird since most games need a big budget for development. There are exceptions though :) Games like Vib Ribbon, Katamari Damaci, Toribash and flow are some I can think off.

[QUOTE="slick_gio"]

"Avant-Garde"? I believe you are asking a bit too much out of the users in this forum subrosian. How would someone even come across such a concept in their daily lives? I sure didn't until I took my art history classes. Perhaps a working definition is a good start.

For a game to be considered avant-garde it would need to push the bounderies of what we consider gaming (in the same way that the Arts and Crafts movement, Futurism, De Stijl, Bauhaus, etc., pushed the bounderies on what was considered art)at that moment in time.

Going by that definition, I would seea "non-games" like Wii Fit to be the very definition of an avant-garde video game. It pushed the bounderies of what would be considered a game and introduced a new way to experience the genre. The whole Wii control scheme in itself is avant-garde because it requires a new way to interface with games.

Now, perhaps you don't want to push the defintion of avant-garde that far. The gameplay of Portal could very well be considered avant-garde since it takes a very unique approach to the FPS experience.

In any case, perhaps this will familiarize people with what it is your asking. Judging by the posts so far, they aren't sure what you mean.

kipknots

Good post, though I don't really agree with subrosians definition on avant-garde. The games he listed all only seem to bring relatively small innovations or just do some things really good (without really doing anything new). None of it comes close to pushing the boundaries of gaming.

I think that the best way for people to get to know avant-garde is by music.

Examples of what I would consider avant-garde myself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUfDhjjgdn4

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=475072

Avant-garde seems to be something that doesn't happen a lot in gaming. Which isn't weird since most games need a big budget for development. There are exceptions though :) Games like Vib Ribbon, Katamari Damaci, Toribash and flow are some I can think off.

Yes, a game like Katamara Damaci would be considered avant-garde. I also believe the Trauma Center series falls into this category. To put it in perspective, any game that created a new genre would be the poster child for an avant-garde game.