blah blah blah....Hardcore Gamers.......blah blah blah

Whatever.

I don't know about anyone else but I am tired of hearing self-proclaimed "hardcores" whine about "casuals" and how particular systems and games is damaging their precious niche. Games are games. There will always be something for everyone. Stop acting as if your extensive knowledge of gaming gives you the right to put others down only to serve your pathetic gaming ego as if you own a piece of the market.

Get over yourselves.

Well said.Eponique

Well said.Eponique

Thank you.

Agreed, the term "hardcore" should be axed.You are one of the enlightened ones.

But don't you get it????!!! Casuals are killing gaming!!!!!! omg omg omg omg!!!!!!!! We hardcores are doomed!!!!!

Great post. Couldn't have said it better myself.

You know, I always wondered about 'hardcore'......since most of us rarely visit this 'outside world', let alone partake in the game called 'physical activity', wouldn't our musculature/bone structure be all weak and flimsy instead? Wouldn't 'softcore' be a more appropriate term?

Yeah, that's not the way business works. The presence of more casual games and casual gamers doesn't mean hardcore games will decline.mattbbpl

So you want a game that can be beaten with one button pressing that you could pretty much sleep through it or you want a game that requires tons of combination dodging, strategic thinking to beat enemies, reactive thinking, etc..

If consoles like the Wii dominate, expect no place for hardcore except PC.

So you want a game that can be beaten with one button pressing that you could pretty much sleep through it or you want a game that requires tons of combination dodging, strategic thinking to beat enemies, reactive thinking, etc..

If consoles like the Wii dominate, expect no place for hardcore except PC.

NobuoMusicMaker

And what would your reasoning for this argument be?

So you want a game that can be beaten with one button pressing that you could pretty much sleep through it or you want a game that requires tons of combination dodging, strategic thinking to beat enemies, reactive thinking, etc..

If consoles like the Wii dominate, expect no place for hardcore except PC.

NobuoMusicMaker

Its the new Wii bashing fad. I think they actually got tired of bashing the graphics.foxhound_fox

So you want a game that can be beaten with one button pressing that you could pretty much sleep through it or you want a game that requires tons of combination dodging, strategic thinking to beat enemies, reactive thinking, etc..

If consoles like the Wii dominate, expect no place for hardcore except PC.

NobuoMusicMaker

Have you noticed how PC gamers have no problem what so ever with the WII. Come to think of it most people who have been in gaming before the PS era have no problem with the concept of the WII, in fact most of them like it and its unique take on gaming. Most of the people who have problems with it are the PS generation who for some reason consider themselves "hardcore". This are mostly the same people who bash PC gaming or any other form of gaming that does not come out on their console. We who have been in gaming long before the PS era recognise that gaming is a constantly changing field. This is most noticeable in the graphics department, so most self proclaimed "hardcore" gamers associate progress with graphics only, and whenever game-play deviates too much from the status co, they can be heard crying out in outrage. Of course 3-5 years down the line they will embrace it and when again in time there is a significant change the whole cycle will start again. This is the nature of the so called "hardcore" gamers.

Its the new Wii bashing fad. I think they actually got tired of bashing the graphics.foxhound_fox

Yeah, that's no fun. It'stoo easy and sheep have stopped posting atrocious looking pictures attemtping to claim some sort of ownage

Ok i'm 26. i been into gaming for geez since 1983 or so haha. Sumotaii

2007-1983 = 24

26-24= 2, LOL

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]Its the new Wii bashing fad. I think they actually got tired of bashing the graphics.MikeE21286

Yeah, that's no fun. It'stoo easy and sheep have stopped posting atrocious looking pictures attemtping to claim some sort of ownage

hahahaha

i was born in 1980 and i didnt game when i popped out of the womb dude. Sumotaii

So why do you enjoy 2D platformer and a couple of minigames in 2007?

Wow... another person bashing hardcore gamers. Congratulations. It's like a mob of fat people at McDonald's shouting "oh yeah well, I don't care that this is garbage food! You're arrogant for eating good, healthy, tasty food! Food is food! Stop pretending your extensive knowledge of nutrtion gives you the right to eat healthy, or critize me for being a lardbutt"

M'kay well, you enjoy playing Mario Party 8 or whatever on your Wii...
subrosian

The TC isn't bashing hardcore gamers, he's critical of the arguments that an increase in casual games will decrease the quality and quantity of the hardcore gamer market.

[QUOTE="subrosian"]Wow... another person bashing hardcore gamers. Congratulations. It's like a mob of fat people at McDonald's shouting "oh yeah well, I don't care that this is garbage food! You're arrogant for eating good, healthy, tasty food! Food is food! Stop pretending your extensive knowledge of nutrtion gives you the right to eat healthy, or critize me for being a lardbutt"

M'kay well, you enjoy playing Mario Party 8 or whatever on your Wii...
mattbbpl

The TC isn't bashing hardcore gamers, he's critical of the arguments that an increase in casual games will decrease the quality and quantity of the hardcore gamer market.

Which is completely possible, and will certainly speed up as they become more popular, which is made possible by Wii(for the most part).

[Happy 1000th post]

Which is completely possible, and will certainly speed up as they become more popular, which is made possible by Wii(for the most part).

[Happy 1000th post]

JLuke360

Haha, thanks!

But, to cut to the chase, it won't happen as long as a hardcore market remains. As long as gamers demand the hardcore games, companies will develop them.

Here's a snippet I posted a while back in a similar thread:

[QUOTE="squirrel337"]

But what happens when there is more money in casuals then there is in hardcore. Would the laws of business say that developers would switch to more casual games.(that is just my guess i know nothing about the laws of business)

mattbbpl

Nope. The laws of business state that the Wii is seeing a quick cash in now. This is because of 1)Developers were caught off guard so there are very few titles in the Wii. This means a lot of bad games will sell pretty well since there is no competition among titles. and 2)Nintendo has widened their audience to include gamers who are just getting their feet wet and will buy the more causal games.

However, as these games become more and more prevalent, it will be harder for developers to make money off of them because the market will be saturated and the competition will be more fierce. Then they'll turn to the more hardcore audience because there's more profit to be had in the sector (since there is less competition there at that point).

Eventually, these two sectors will even out and developers will cater to both of them until demand is filled.

Such are the laws of business ;)

So you want a game that can be beaten with one button pressing that you could pretty much sleep through it or you want a game that requires tons of combination dodging, strategic thinking to beat enemies, reactive thinking, etc..

If consoles like the Wii dominate, expect no place for hardcore except PC.

NobuoMusicMaker

I can name 8 games coming out for the Wii that put your post to shame, and they're all coming out before 2008.

I didnt get the wii to play a 2d platformer...see Fanboys let me let you know, i am a gamer, i own all the systems, and if i cant own them one generation ill try the brand the next. I also pc and handheld game. I wonder if there were fanboys this bad back in the day, or the fact that little fat ignorant kids get so much access to the internet that they spend more time bashing then playing, which is probaly why gaming today sucks in general to the yesteryears. If gamers could wish one thing, my wish would be to just rid the world of fanboys who really ruin it. Nut for you fanboy ill list my systems

Nes, Super Nes, Wii, 64, Cube, Virtual Boy, DS, GBA, GB, GB Micro, PSP, PS1, PS2, Xbox, Xbox 360, Dreamcast, Neo Geo Aes, Sega Genesis, Commodore 64, PC, Intellivision, Tandy Games, Atari.

[QUOTE="JLuke360"]

Which is completely possible, and will certainly speed up as they become more popular, which is made possible by Wii(for the most part).

[Happy 1000th post]

mattbbpl

Haha, thanks!

But, to cut to the chase, it won't happen as long as a hardcore market remains. As long as gamers demand the hardcore games, companies will develop them.

That's not true - truly hardcore (I don't mean FPS games, I mean games for gamers who think gaming is an art form...) games have already been hurt by the casual market. Making a game for a hardcore audience sometimes mean alienating 80% of the market completely. Betheseda is overhauling Fallout 3 for the masses in the same way they overhauled Eldar Scrolls with Oblivion, and games like Halo CE were dumbed down for the sequels - the pistol was too punishing to unskilled players, and that hurts sales numbers when you move online...

There's always something lost when you go this route though. Why is AoE II inferior to Starcraft? Partially because AoE has build in mechanisms to prevent rushing - the game isn't about constant war, it holds your hand and draws games out arbitrarily for beginners.

You're also forgetting that game development budgets are ultimately a zero-sum game. That is to say, at the point in time when I start planning the next year's games, I only have, say, $50 million on the table. If I see that Wii minigames are selling, and say "hmm, I could make 5 games for the Wii for $10 million each, with a 75% chance of making at least $15 million on each game" it looks a lot better than saying "I could spend $25 million on one hardcore game, with only a 50% chance of making $30 million" - the publisher is probably going to bet on a casual (wii) heavy development schedule.

The only way someone deserves the status of "Hardore" is if they have a room with shelves full of gaming colectables, games, consoles, soundtracks, etc. So a very small percentage of anyone on these forums I would imagine. After that you're either a standard gamer or a casual. Get over it. I'd wager that over 50% of the self-proclaimed hardcore don't evenown an NES.

Wow... another person bashing hardcore gamers. Congratulations. It's like a mob of fat people at McDonald's shouting "oh yeah well, I don't care that this is garbage food! You're arrogant for eating good, healthy, tasty food! Food is food! Stop pretending your extensive knowledge of nutrtion gives you the right to eat healthy, or critize me for being a lardbutt"

M'kay well, you enjoy playing Mario Party 8 or whatever on your Wii...
subrosian

I never mentioned the Wii.

Try reading better.

[QUOTE="subrosian"]Wow... another person bashing hardcore gamers. Congratulations. It's like a mob of fat people at McDonald's shouting "oh yeah well, I don't care that this is garbage food! You're arrogant for eating good, healthy, tasty food! Food is food! Stop pretending your extensive knowledge of nutrtion gives you the right to eat healthy, or critize me for being a lardbutt"

M'kay well, you enjoy playing Mario Party 8 or whatever on your Wii...

IronMaidenLives

Where was the wii even mentioned? Lol desperate fanboy.

That's not true - truly hardcore (I don't mean FPS games, I mean games for gamers who think gaming is an art form...) games have already been hurt by the casual market. Making a game for a hardcore audience sometimes mean alienating 80% of the market completely. Betheseda is overhauling Fallout 3 for the masses in the same way they overhauled Eldar Scrolls with Oblivion, and games like Halo CE were dumbed down for the sequels - the pistol was too punishing to unskilled players, and that hurts sales numbers when you move online...

There's always something lost when you go this route though. Why is AoE II inferior to Starcraft? Partially because AoE has build in mechanisms to prevent rushing - the game isn't about constant war, it holds your hand and draws games out arbitrarily for beginners.

You're also forgetting that game development budgets are ultimately a zero-sum game. That is to say, at the point in time when I start planning the next year's games, I only have, say, $50 million on the table. If I see that Wii minigames are selling, and say "hmm, I could make 5 games for the Wii for $10 million each, with a 75% chance of making at least $15 million on each game" it looks a lot better than saying "I could spend $25 million on one hardcore game, with only a 50% chance of making $30 million" - the publisher is probably going to bet on a casual (wii) heavy development schedule.

subrosian

It doesn't look like MGS4 is being dumbed down. Or Mass Effect. Nor Bioshock. There will always be a market for these types of games because people like you enjoy them. I enjoy them as well, for that matter.

As for having a specific number of dollars on the table, that number grows as more customers get into gaming, allowing them to make more games that cater to both types of audiences. And they will cater to both types as long as consumers demand both types.

The laws of business themselves support this, and they hold true for every industry. Please see my previous post for further details.

Regardless, you'll still be able to acquire the types of games you crave. You have no need to worry.

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

That's not true - truly hardcore (I don't mean FPS games, I mean games for gamers who think gaming is an art form...) games have already been hurt by the casual market. Making a game for a hardcore audience sometimes mean alienating 80% of the market completely. Betheseda is overhauling Fallout 3 for the masses in the same way they overhauled Eldar Scrolls with Oblivion, and games like Halo CE were dumbed down for the sequels - the pistol was too punishing to unskilled players, and that hurts sales numbers when you move online...

There's always something lost when you go this route though. Why is AoE II inferior to Starcraft? Partially because AoE has build in mechanisms to prevent rushing - the game isn't about constant war, it holds your hand and draws games out arbitrarily for beginners.

You're also forgetting that game development budgets are ultimately a zero-sum game. That is to say, at the point in time when I start planning the next year's games, I only have, say, $50 million on the table. If I see that Wii minigames are selling, and say "hmm, I could make 5 games for the Wii for $10 million each, with a 75% chance of making at least $15 million on each game" it looks a lot better than saying "I could spend $25 million on one hardcore game, with only a 50% chance of making $30 million" - the publisher is probably going to bet on a casual (wii) heavy development schedule.

mattbbpl

It doesn't look like MGS4 is being dumbed down. Or Mass Effect. Nor Bioshock. There will always be a market for these types of games because people like you enjoy them. I enjoy them as well, for that matter.

As for having a specific number of dollars on the table, that number grows as more customers get into gaming, allowing them to make more games that cater to both types of audiences. And they will cater to both types as long as consumers demand both types.

The laws of business themselves support this, and they hold true for every industry. Please see my previous post for further details.

Regardless, you'll still be able to acquire the types of games you crave. You have no need to worry.

Your avatar is teh pwnage. that 70's show ftw.

Your avatar is teh pwnage. that 70's show ftw.

deluxemando

Someone's gotta be right on System Wars... It might as well be Batman. ;)

Completely disagree. Maybe "hardcore" gamers do suffer from elitism. But you cannot deny that casuals ruin the industry. CASUALS DO NOT READ GAME REVIEWS. Game reviews are not published in the paper like those for movies, and while everyone talks about movies, only certain groups talk about games consistently. Therefore, casuals judge games by their cover, or by graphics. True innovation (Okami, for example) is lost.

Movies recover from this by having an indie film industry. Gaming doesn't really have that. The whole industry is in danger of going for flash over substance, because it sells.

Completely disagree. Maybe "hardcore" gamers do suffer from elitism. But you cannot deny that casuals ruin the industry. CASUALS DO NOT READ GAME REVIEWS. Game reviews are not published in the paper like those for movies, and while everyone talks about movies, only certain groups talk about games consistently. Therefore, casuals judge games by their cover, or by graphics. True innovation (Okami, for example) is lost.

Movies recover from this by having an indie film industry. Gaming doesn't really have that. The whole industry is in danger of going for flash over substance, because it sells.

Angarah

Casuals and hardcores enjoy different sectors of the market. Companies will appeal to both sectors. It isn't an "Either one or the other" type of thing.

Completely disagree. Maybe "hardcore" gamers do suffer from elitism. But you cannot deny that casuals ruin the industry. CASUALS DO NOT READ GAME REVIEWS. Game reviews are not published in the paper like those for movies, and while everyone talks about movies, only certain groups talk about games consistently. Therefore, casuals judge games by their cover, or by graphics. True innovation (Okami, for example) is lost.

Movies recover from this by having an indie film industry. Gaming doesn't really have that. The whole industry is in danger of going for flash over substance, because it sells.

Angarah

Your argument has a major flaw. What the WII is doing now is what the PS & PS2 did when they came out, and that is to appeal to a larger audience than before. I mean look at how many "casual" gamers the PS & PS2 brought into the gaming market. Back then they were the "casual" gamers and those who had owned NES/SNES/GENESIS were the "hardcore" gamers of that time (bythe logic of most "hardcore" gamers). What you are feeling now is what they felt at the time.

As for casuals not reading game reviews, as you have pointed out the sales show that the majority of PS gamers are casuals (how else would you explain the sales of Spider-man 3, which sold a lot on PS2/X-Box). And there will always be great games that do not get a lot of sales due to poor advertisement or just because they are too different from the main stream or are not part of a large franchise (hell this happens in PC gaming and they are the most hardcore gamers in my opinion).

There will always be those who want to make great games (the PC modding community is proof of this), and as long as there is a market for it there will be companies that release those games. They are not exactly going to just forget about all the millions of gamers who had owned the PS2 and will buy the X-Box/PS3/WII this generation. They will still want their money and while the WII has opened up a larger audience base businesses do not just trow away what they have in favor of a larger market, they expand to include the new market.