Buying used games hurts the industry as much as piracy.

What's up with that? While the general perception of piracy is that it is morally wrong, a lot of people percevie buying used games as perfectly reasonable. I shall not question the morality behind it, and I certainly know that buying used game is legal. However the end result is the same: developers and publishers don't get a cent out of either piracy or used games.

Piracy is definitely a problem on PC, and to a lesser degree the consoles. However PC gaming is heading towards digital copies instead of physical copies of games, which would effectively deny any resale of used games. Further used copies of PC games are very rarely sold in stores (if at all). It's obvious that buying used games is a more prevalent problem on the console platforms. The damaging of effect of piracy is being exaggerated and the damaging effect of buying used games has been downplayed, simply because of their legal statuses.

EDIT:

Since the thread has reached the point where people couldn't be bothered to read the entire thread and go straight to the back, here's a summary:

- Piracy hurts the industry, that much is obvious.

- Buying used games is perfectly legal.

- The argument is that buying used games also hurts the industry.

- Used games and piracy cannot be compared on a one to one scale, search thread if you want to talk about it. It's been discussed 2 or 3 times.

- My name is Vlad. And I am not a vampire.

- Please don't bother providing justifications for buying used games. That's not what the thread is about.

- The first-sale doctrine is treating VGs just like TVs/cars, but that shouldn't be the case. Reasons discussed around page 5-6.

EDIT 2:

What seems to happen most of the time is:

A: "Buying used games hurts the gaming industry."

B: "It's alright because buying used game is legal and/or morally acceptable."

B has failed to prove that buying used games does not in fact hurt the game industry. As for the rest that managed to stay on topic instead of going into tangents I've clearly tried to prevent in the original post, thanks for the discussion.

EDIT 3:

What has already been discussed multiple times and shouldn't be brought up again without first reading the entirety of the thread. Chances are most people won't even read this part though:

- Used video games vs other used products such as cars.

- Why buying used video games is justifiable (not even the point of the thread).

- Used video games were once bought brand new.

I'm buying as long as it's available and legal.

I'm buying as long as it's available and legal.

Lto_thaG

[QUOTE="Lto_thaG"]

I'm buying as long as it's available and legal.

GhoX

[QUOTE="GhoX"][QUOTE="Lto_thaG"]

I'm buying as long as it's available and legal.

Lto_thaG

[QUOTE="Lto_thaG"]

[QUOTE="GhoX"] Aside from its legal status, how does it differ from piracy though? Ignoring the means; the ends are the same. I really don't think game makers care much about how you obtain a game, but rather what they get out of it.lawlessx

[QUOTE="Lto_thaG"]

[QUOTE="GhoX"] Aside from its legal status, how does it differ from piracy though? Ignoring the means; the ends are the same. I really don't think game makers care much about how you obtain a game, but rather what they get out of it.lawlessx

[QUOTE="GhoX"][QUOTE="Lto_thaG"]

I'm buying as long as it's available and legal.

Lto_thaG

Just because devs aren't getting paid for second-hand sales doesn't make it wrong or bad.

Nobody gets paid for second-hand anything.

What makes gaming so special that they need to get paid 2x for 1 user having the product?

I feel like when devs whine about second hand sales, it's an attack on people's consumer rights to own what they purchase.

Who are you to tell me I can't resell what I bought.

Yes DD is prevalent on PC.

But I don't see it as positive, I see it as PC gamers getting screwed.

They buy and if they don't like the game, they are stuck with it, they can't resell.

Aside from its legal status, how does it differ from piracy though? Ignoring the means; the ends are the same. I really don't think game makers care much about how you obtain a game, but rather what they get out of it.GhoX

Last I checked, Gamestop isn't reselling the same copy of Modern Warfare thousands upon thousands of times.

The fact of the matter is, Publishers don't make any profit with used games and (obviously) pirated game. *Didn't read the 1st post btw*

Publishers are combating this with Online Passes.

[and the legal system think that it's perfectly fine.GhoX

[QUOTE="GhoX"] Aside from its legal status, how does it differ from piracy though? Ignoring the means; the ends are the same. I really don't think game makers care much about how you obtain a game, but rather what they get out of it.PBSnipes

Last I checked, Gamestop isn't reselling the same copy of Modern Warfare thousands upon thousands of times.

It's just greed talking.

First devs said "respect our rights, pay for our product."

And we said ok.

Now they are whining because we resell the product to someone else.

It's just whining for more money.

No rational reason other than "wah we don't get paid for that."

Well why should you get paid for something I purchased and no longer want?

[QUOTE="lawlessx"][QUOTE="Lto_thaG"] I'm paying.Seriously...Stop with the "it's the same as piracy".I'm not doing anything illegal.They're just used games.People have been doing it for ages.Suddenly there's this big fuzz about it.

nintendoboy16

Worse still, while the people who pirate may not buy the game at all if piracy is not available, a lot more people would have bought a new copy of the game had the used games not being available. One option is illegal, while the other is regarded merely as "a better deal". Simple Supply/Demand and Economic surplus theories can easily apply to the problem.

The fact of the matter is, Developers don't make any profit with used games and (obviously) pirated game. *Didn't read the 1st post btw*

el3m2tigre

So what?

GM don't make a profit when I buy a used car.

[QUOTE="el3m2tigre"]

The fact of the matter is, Developers don't make any profit with used games and (obviously) pirated game. *Didn't read the 1st post btw*

ZombieKiller7

So what?

GM don't make a profit when I buy a used car.

Exactly, so what? I personally don't care.

The difference between buying used products and pirating is one is stealing and the other isn't. That used game was once a brand new game that was purchased and a pirated game is an lost sale entirely. TC, with your logic a yard sale is like a central hub for thieves...vashkey

Two games both get 10k sales. One game gets 10k pirated copies, while the other game gets resold to 10k more players - the publisher still only makes the money of 10k sales.

GhoX

The pirated game is being played by 20k people, but only 10k paid.

The resold game is being played by 10k people, and 10k paid.

Why should the publisher get paid for 20k games when 10k are playing it?

I know they are whining to increase sales.

But they don't deserve it. They don't deserve the extra revenue, they did not earn it.

Used games = Legal piracy

[QUOTE="GhoX"]

Two games both get 10k sales. One game gets 10k pirated copies, while the other game gets resold to 10k more players - the publisher still only makes the money of 10k sales.

ZombieKiller7

The pirated game is being played by 20k people, but only 10k paid.

The resold game is being played by 10k people, and 10k paid.

Why should the publisher get paid for 20k games when 10k are playing it?

I know they are whining to increase sales.

But they don't deserve it. They don't deserve the extra revenue, they did not earn it.

How long exactly has the concept of buying used games been controversial? People have been doing it forever.

Its morally wrong to steal, your not stealing if your buying a physical object from someone, and there is a clear different where pirating undermines new sales because data can be copied, pirating hurts infinitly more because it takes 1 bought or stolen copy and turns it into as many copies as people can download... used games 1 person buys new, the company gets the money for it, and that 1 copy is just circulating in the populace, granted its not like these depreciate in quality over time like a car so its easy to find an equallibrium where new copies don't really need to be shipped any more.

[QUOTE="vashkey"]The difference between buying used products and pirating is one is stealing and the other isn't. That used game was once a brand new game that was purchased and a pirated game is an lost sale entirely. TC, with your logic a yard sale is like a central hub for thieves...GhoX

Console game sales aren't suffering.

Publishers and developers are getting as many sales as they deserve.

Let's not forget that used copies have multiple uses. You say it's wrong for me to trade my new copy to GameStop, but what about loaning it to a friend or relative? What if I buy a game for my children and let all of them play from that one copy--should I be spending $60 per child within the same household? What if I have someone staying in my house over the weekend, and while here he plays my game--should I refuse to let him play because he doesn't have his own copy?

Do these situations make me a bad person, or is this just the way the world has always worked with any sort of physical good? Killing the used market harms all of these situations--not just the scenario where I sell to GameStop.

Who cares? Buying used is nothing like piracy, pirates are thieves, buying used is not stealing. Who cares if the developers don't make money maybe I should start feeling like s*** every time I borrow or let a friend borrow a game. Last time I checked people don't feel bad about buying used cars. Piracy is stealing, buying used is not and no one should feel bad for it.

How long exactly has the concept of buying used games been controversial? People have been doing it forever.

Demonjoe93

[QUOTE="ZombieKiller7"]

[QUOTE="GhoX"]

Two games both get 10k sales. One game gets 10k pirated copies, while the other game gets resold to 10k more players - the publisher still only makes the money of 10k sales.

GhoX

The pirated game is being played by 20k people, but only 10k paid.

The resold game is being played by 10k people, and 10k paid.

Why should the publisher get paid for 20k games when 10k are playing it?

I know they are whining to increase sales.

But they don't deserve it. They don't deserve the extra revenue, they did not earn it.

[QUOTE="GhoX"][QUOTE="Lto_thaG"]

I'm buying as long as it's available and legal.

Lto_thaG

[QUOTE="Demonjoe93"]

How long exactly has the concept of buying used games been controversial? People have been doing it forever.

GhoX

However in both cases 20k people have played both games. By your logic nobody should buy games and only rent games, since once you are done with a game the publisher should "refund" you for your purchase. How did they not earn the extra revenue, and how did they not deserve it?GhoX

If we regard games as "use once, throw away" media, then they should be PRICED that way. You think people pay $60 to play a 5 hour game one time?

Most games have a replay value, online functionality, expansions, etc etc.

Apply your logic to any other product.

"The first person who bought the towel used it to dry himself off after showering, then he sold the towel to another person, but the manufacturer only got paid once."

Bottom line, publishers do not deserve to be paid twice for 1 product.

Let's not forget that used copies have multiple uses. You say it's wrong for me to trade my new copy to GameStop, but what about loaning it to a friend or relative? What if I buy a game for my children and let all of them play from that one copy--should I be spending $60 per child within the same household? What if I have someone staying in my house over the weekend, and while here he plays my game--should I refuse to let him play because he doesn't have his own copy?

Do these situations make me a bad person, or is this just the way the world has always worked with any sort of physical good? Killing the used market harms all of these situations--not just the scenario where I sell to GameStop.

garrett_daniels

Who cares if the developers don't make moneyJolt_counter119

[QUOTE="Demonjoe93"]

How long exactly has the concept of buying used games been controversial? People have been doing it forever.

GhoX

Its morally wrong to steal, your not stealing if your buying a physical object from someone, and there is a clear different where pirating undermines new sales because data can be copied, pirating hurts infinitly more because it takes 1 bought or stolen copy and turns it into as many copies as people can download... used games 1 person buys new, the company gets the money for it, and that 1 copy is just circulating in the populace, granted its not like these depreciate in quality over time like a car so its easy to find an quilibrium where new copies don't really need to be shipped any more.savagetwinkie

Damaging? Just because they're not making as much as physically possible from me doesn't mean they're dying from used game sales or anything. If it was this damaging then I would think it would take more than five gens of gaming for it to become a known threat to developers. And used game sales are almost nothing like piracy. With piracy developers don't make any money, with used game sales the devs make money off the first purchase.

I think the main diference is,when people are pirating games you never know if they would´ve bought the game or not,so they´re not really coustumers(so not really a lost sale),when someone buys used it is a lost sale to the devs because that person actually bought the game,so in theory,a used sale is technicaly a lost sale for the dev.

Used and new market affect each other.

You have to have enough new copies in circulation to feed used.

Used market produces circulation and AWARENESS of the product to drive sales.

Without used, you will not get as many new sales.

Eventually it all comes back to a sale if people like your product.

I try my best to support my favorite devs now that I have a job. I'm smart with my Day 1 purchases, and use CAG to find some great deals on new games. Still, I can't condemn the used game market. Everyone here has the right to trade in their stuff, or let someone else borrow it. And when we buy a used game we are doing it legally.

I'm going to let my friend borrow Resistance 3. Technically its as bad as piracy according to your logic because he isn't paying Insominac Games a dime. Does this make me an a**? I think not.

I am all for gamers buying new when they can, but the used game market needs to stay. Piracy on the other hand is inexcusable, and will never be stopped. The funny thing is that most pirates have no idea what they are really doing. On this forum we condemn them, but in reality there just normal people who see hte chance at getting a free game. If we all weren't so attached to the game industry would we be like them?

Think of it like music...not to many people I know use iTunes except a niche of people who want to support their favorite artists. Nothing game devs do will ever be able to stop it.

I think the main diference is,when people are pirating games you never know if they would´ve bought the game or not,so they´re not really coustumers(so not really a lost sale),when someone buys used it is a lost sale to the devs because that person actually bought the game,so in theory,a used sale is technicaly a lost sale for the dev.

Arach666

It doesn't make you a bad person, but those cases are not cases of "buying used copies", which is what's hurting the industry and what's being discussed in this thread.GhoX

The situations I described all involve playing without buying new. That is what this topic is about. It doesn't matter whether they paid anything for used access since the end result is the same: they are playing without buying new.

I ask you again: do these situations make me a bad person?

When the industry has the advantage, it's smart business. When the customer has the advantage, it's immoral and borderline criminal.

At this point, I'm beyond the point of caring.

[QUOTE="Arach666"]

I think the main diference is,when people are pirating games you never know if they would´ve bought the game or not,so they´re not really coustumers(so not really a lost sale),when someone buys used it is a lost sale to the devs because that person actually bought the game,so in theory,a used sale is technicaly a lost sale for the dev.

GhoX

There wouldnt be a gaming industry if every gamer pirated their games, true or false?

What's up with that? While the general perception of piracy is that it is morally wrong, a lot of people percevie buying used games as perfectly reasonable. I shall not question the morality behind it, and I certainly know that buying used game is legal. However the end result is the same: developers and publishers don't get a cent out of either piracy or used games.

Piracy is definitely a problem on PC, and to a lesser degree the consoles. However PC gaming is heading towards digital copies instead of physical copies of games, which would effectively deny any resale of used games. Further used copies of PC games are very rarely sold in stores (if at all). It's obvious that buying used games is a more prevalent problem on the console platforms. The damaging of effect of piracy is being exaggerated and the damaging effect of buying used games has been downplayed, simply because of their legal statuses.

GhoX

So breaking the law is the same thing as making a wise purchase decision in a free enterprise nation? In this economy? Really? That's your argument?

This is why they aren't the same... Fact: developers get nothing out of piracy. Fact: developers get no profit from used games. Fact: developers got FULL MSRP for the used game when it was bought new. After that, the developer is owed nothing. In other news, I have a used Jeep Liberty that I am making payments on. Jeep doesn't get one penny from the payments I make. Jeep is still doing just fine. You know what that's called?

Capitalism in a free market

[QUOTE="GhoX"]It doesn't make you a bad person, but those cases are not cases of "buying used copies", which is what's hurting the industry and what's being discussed in this thread.garrett_daniels

The situations I described all involve playing without buying new. That is what this topic is about. It doesn't matter whether they paid anything for used access since the end result is the same: they are playing without buying new.

I ask you again: do these situations make me a bad person?

I bought Halo used. I loved it. Because of that, I bought Halo 2, Halo 3, Halo Wars, ODST, and Reach new. So the game industry didn't make anything off of the copy of Halo I bought, yet it made more than enough money from the other ones I bought, way more to cover what they initially didn't make.

The difference between buying used products and pirating is one is stealing and the other isn't. That used game was once a brand new game that was purchased and a pirated game is an lost sale entirely. TC, with your logic a yard sale is like a central hub for thieves...vashkey

ROTFL...super funny dude!

So long as the used game market exists, people will make use of it to save a buck. The individual does not care one bit if it hurts the industry.

[QUOTE="GhoX"][QUOTE="Arach666"]

I think the main diference is,when people are pirating games you never know if they would´ve bought the game or not,so they´re not really coustumers(so not really a lost sale),when someone buys used it is a lost sale to the devs because that person actually bought the game,so in theory,a used sale is technicaly a lost sale for the dev.

crimsonman1245

There wouldnt be a gaming industry if every gamer pirated their games, true or false?

I cant understand how Used games hurt sales of console games. Surely the game has to be sold in the first place! Would it not be fairer to say that game rentals hurt thegame industry more? Why do Car manufacturers not complain about used sales? Why do authors not complain about charity shops selling used books? Why do Mobile phone manufacturers not complain about used sales?

I bought fifa 12 brand new and get one online pass but if a second gamertag wants to use it on the same console a second online pass must be purchased. I also have to pay for league updates and various other content as well. Why are games not tied to the Console MAC address or serial number instead of online passes?