Call of Duty 4 is officially more popular than World of Warcraft.

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Deathlessness

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#1 Deathlessness
Member since 2009 • 334 Posts

On consoles alone, at least 17.4 million unique users have played Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare's online mode (The PlayStation numbers are not updated).

If we were to include the units on the PC - and modernize the PlayStation numbers - we would have been looking at a number far greater than 20 millon.

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error_202

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#2 error_202
Member since 2005 • 313 Posts

Yeah and Wii play has sold 24 million

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clembo1990

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#3 clembo1990
Member since 2005 • 9976 Posts
And if we are talking about game hours WoW would double CoD4 if not more. WoW gets far more playage than CoD4
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Deathlessness

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#4 Deathlessness
Member since 2009 • 334 Posts

Yeah and Wii play has sold 24 million

error_202

Solitaire has outsold the Wii hardware and software library put together. Your point being? :) I was talking about the online mode. World of Warcraft was the king for a long time. :)

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Deathlessness

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#5 Deathlessness
Member since 2009 • 334 Posts

And if we are talking about game hours WoW would double CoD4 if not more. WoW gets far more playage than CoD4clembo1990

World of Warcraft was released 3 years earlier. :)

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error_202

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#6 error_202
Member since 2005 • 313 Posts

[QUOTE="error_202"]

Yeah and Wii play has sold 24 million

Deathlessness

Solitaire has outsold the Wii hardware and software library put together. Your point being? :) I was talking about the online mode. World of Warcraft was the king for a long time. :)

That is my point, kinda random to compare a twitch FPS to an MMORPG, even if it is just in sales. I even doubt one would play the other.

EDIT: oh you were comparing the online modes. My bad.

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rybe1025

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#7 rybe1025
Member since 2004 • 6362 Posts

On consoles alone, at least 17.4 million unique users have played Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare's online mode (The PlayStation numbers are not updated).

If we were to include the units on the PC - and modernize the PlayStation numbers - we would have been looking at a number far greater than 20 millon.

Deathlessness
WoW would have FAR more then 17.5 mil unique users. There is 11.5 mil playing now and think how many have created a account and cancled over the years.
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clyde46

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#8 clyde46
Member since 2005 • 49061 Posts

Yea right.

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-Pred-Alien-

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#9 -Pred-Alien-
Member since 2009 • 1733 Posts
Ive lost faith in humanity:(
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Deathlessness

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#10 Deathlessness
Member since 2009 • 334 Posts

clyde46.

World of Warcraft - released in 2004.

Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare - released in 2007.

Good try, though. :D

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Danm_999

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#11 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts

clyde46.

World of Warcraft - released in 2004.

Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare - released in 2007.

Good try, though. :D

Deathlessness
How is that at all relevant?
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Espada12

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#12 Espada12
Member since 2008 • 23247 Posts

I bet none of those people would be shelling 15 a month to play cod online for the next 5 years.

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Fetus5

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#13 Fetus5
Member since 2008 • 366 Posts

On consoles alone, at least 17.4 million unique users have played Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare's online mode (The PlayStation numbers are not updated).

If we were to include the units on the PC - and modernize the PlayStation numbers - we would have been looking at a number far greater than 20 millon.

Deathlessness

I would like to see how many of them there would be if they were payin a 15$ monthly feelol not so much im thinking

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delta3074

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#14 delta3074
Member since 2007 • 20003 Posts

On consoles alone, at least 17.4 million unique users have played Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare's online mode (The PlayStation numbers are not updated).

If we were to include the units on the PC - and modernize the PlayStation numbers - we would have been looking at a number far greater than 20 millon.

Deathlessness
cod 4 will be forgotten about in a couple of years, people will be playing WOW until hell freezes over,apparently it's more addictive than 'crack', i know people who have changed there names to there WOW characters name, sad, but what can you do
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Danm_999

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#15 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts
Your original post also ignores that the 11.5-12 million people on WoW are current subscribers. People who have quit do not factor into that number. Only Blizzard knows how many people have bought WoW, so I can't see how you've come to the conclusion COD4 is more popular.
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Vyyral

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#16 Vyyral
Member since 2007 • 386 Posts

clyde46.

World of Warcraft - released in 2004.

Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare - released in 2007.

Good try, though. :D

Deathlessness

World of Warcraft - 15$ per month

Call of Duty 4 - 0$ per month

And I'm pretty positive WoW has had more unique players over the years anyways.

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Fetus5

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#17 Fetus5
Member since 2008 • 366 Posts

LOL and they are both owned by the same company so its not like it would change anything

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Jackboot343

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#19 Jackboot343
Member since 2007 • 2574 Posts

Yea right.

clyde46

Xfire isn't even available for consoles. :?

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clembo1990

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#20 clembo1990
Member since 2005 • 9976 Posts

[QUOTE="Deathlessness"]

clyde46.

World of Warcraft - released in 2004.

Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare - released in 2007.

Good try, though. :D

Vyyral

World of Warcraft - 15$ per month

Call of Duty 4 - 0$ per month

And I'm pretty positive WoW has had more unique players over the years anyways.

:lol: you don't know what you are talking about. WoW has recruited millions of players last year and the year before. Partly thanks to awareness of the game and the free trial.
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Espada12

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#21 Espada12
Member since 2008 • 23247 Posts

[QUOTE="Fetus5"]

[QUOTE="Deathlessness"]

On consoles alone, at least 17.4 million unique users have played Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare's online mode (The PlayStation numbers are not updated).

If we were to include the units on the PC - and modernize the PlayStation numbers - we would have been looking at a number far greater than 20 millon.

Deathlessness

I would like to see how many of them there would be if they were payin a 15$ monthly feelol not so much im thinking

Yes, they would. If Infinity Ward would only be focusing on Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare and if they were to release expansions and constantly improve the game, there would be many.

Maybe you're just mad because it's bigger than World of Warcraft. :lol:

LOL who in their right mind would pay to play a FPS online. Especially a camping noobfest like Cod 4 :lol:

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Danm_999

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#22 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts

[QUOTE="Fetus5"]

[QUOTE="Deathlessness"]

On consoles alone, at least 17.4 million unique users have played Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare's online mode (The PlayStation numbers are not updated).

If we were to include the units on the PC - and modernize the PlayStation numbers - we would have been looking at a number far greater than 20 millon.

Deathlessness

I would like to see how many of them there would be if they were payin a 15$ monthly feelol not so much im thinking

Yes, they would. If Infinity Ward would only be focusing on Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare and if they were to release expansions and constantly improve the game, there would be many.

Maybe you're just mad because it's bigger than World of Warcraft. :lol:

Oh dear, and this is where it all falls apart.
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Vyyral

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#23 Vyyral
Member since 2007 • 386 Posts

[QUOTE="Vyyral"]

[QUOTE="Deathlessness"]

clyde46.

World of Warcraft - released in 2004.

Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare - released in 2007.

Good try, though. :D

clembo1990

World of Warcraft - 15$ per month

Call of Duty 4 - 0$ per month

And I'm pretty positive WoW has had more unique players over the years anyways.

:lol: you don't know what you are talking about. WoW has recruited millions of players last year and the year before. Partly thanks to awareness of the game and the free trial.

Are you quoting me by accident or something? I said I'm pretty sure WoW has had more unique players, I'm on the WoW side here! :P

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Deathlessness

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#24 Deathlessness
Member since 2009 • 334 Posts

[QUOTE="Deathlessness"]

[QUOTE="Fetus5"]

I would like to see how many of them there would be if they were payin a 15$ monthly feelol not so much im thinking

Espada12

Yes, they would. If Infinity Ward would only be focusing on Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare and if they were to release expansions and constantly improve the game, there would be many.

Maybe you're just mad because it's bigger than World of Warcraft. :lol:

LOL who in their right mind would pay to play a FPS online. Especially a camping noobfest like Cod 4 :lol:

Maybe one of those over 20 million? :lol:

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Deathlessness

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#25 Deathlessness
Member since 2009 • 334 Posts

[QUOTE="clembo1990"][QUOTE="Vyyral"]

World of Warcraft - 15$ per month

Call of Duty 4 - 0$ per month

And I'm pretty positive WoW has had more unique players over the years anyways.

Vyyral

:lol: you don't know what you are talking about. WoW has recruited millions of players last year and the year before. Partly thanks to awareness of the game and the free trial.

Are you quoting me by accident or something? I said I'm pretty sure WoW has had more unique players, I'm on the WoW side here! :P

Your proof has convinced me. :roll:

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Danm_999

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#26 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

[QUOTE="Deathlessness"]

Yes, they would. If Infinity Ward would only be focusing on Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare and if they were to release expansions and constantly improve the game, there would be many.

Maybe you're just mad because it's bigger than World of Warcraft. :lol:

Deathlessness

LOL who in their right mind would pay to play a FPS online. Especially a camping noobfest like Cod 4 :lol:

Maybe one of those over 20 million? :lol:

You seriously believe if Infinity Ward charged $15/month for COD4 they'd have a larger userbase than WoW? Can you comprehend how many active players WoW would have if it were free? You're not using your head.
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Espada12

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#27 Espada12
Member since 2008 • 23247 Posts

[QUOTE="Deathlessness"]

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

LOL who in their right mind would pay to play a FPS online. Especially a camping noobfest like Cod 4 :lol:

Danm_999

Maybe one of those over 20 million? :lol:

You seriously believe if Infinity Ward charged $15/month for COD4 they'd have a larger userbase than WoW? Can you comprehend how many active players WoW would have if it were free? You're not using your head.

Not to mention WoW is on PC only and cod is on every gaming platform! Even the DS :lol:

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Deathlessness

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#28 Deathlessness
Member since 2009 • 334 Posts

[QUOTE="Deathlessness"]

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

LOL who in their right mind would pay to play a FPS online. Especially a camping noobfest like Cod 4 :lol:

Danm_999

Maybe one of those over 20 million? :lol:

You seriously believe if Infinity Ward charged $15/month for COD4 they'd have a larger userbase than WoW? Can you comprehend how many active players WoW would have if it were free? You're not using your head.

If it were a "world", like World of Warcraft, then yes. :) It would have crushed it, like it's crushing it right now. :)

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soiheardyoulike

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#29 soiheardyoulike
Member since 2008 • 724 Posts

Jasonhoneyman is that you?

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Danm_999

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#30 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts

[QUOTE="Danm_999"][QUOTE="Deathlessness"]

Maybe one of those over 20 million? :lol:

Deathlessness

You seriously believe if Infinity Ward charged $15/month for COD4 they'd have a larger userbase than WoW? Can you comprehend how many active players WoW would have if it were free? You're not using your head.

If it were a "world", like World of Warcraft, then yes. :) It would have crushed it, like it's crushing it right now. :)

Sure. Infinity Ward, a developer with no experience in MMORPGs, and no experience outside FPS, could make an MMORPG that would do what Sony Online, Funcom, ArenaNet, Mythic Entertainment and the popular licenses of Star Wars, Warhammer, Conan, the Matrix could not. Yes, Infinity Ward, who have never managed to produce a game outside the FPS genre, could do what none of the other giants in the MMORPG genre with decades of experience could do. And it would be just as successful as an FPS on four platforms, with no online fees. I've got to ask at this point, is your brain getting enough oxygen?
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Deathlessness

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#31 Deathlessness
Member since 2009 • 334 Posts

[QUOTE="Danm_999"][QUOTE="Deathlessness"]

Maybe one of those over 20 million? :lol:

Espada12

You seriously believe if Infinity Ward charged $15/month for COD4 they'd have a larger userbase than WoW? Can you comprehend how many active players WoW would have if it were free? You're not using your head.

Not to mention WoW is on PC only and cod is on every gaming platform! Even the DS :lol:

Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare currently has more than 13 million unique users on the Xbox 360 alone. :)

Out of about 30 million, we're talking about an impressive 13 million! And I'm not including the PlayStation or PC numbers.

Out of billions PC owners, approximately 11 - 12 million play World of Warcraft. :)

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Deathlessness

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#32 Deathlessness
Member since 2009 • 334 Posts

[QUOTE="Deathlessness"]

[QUOTE="Danm_999"] You seriously believe if Infinity Ward charged $15/month for COD4 they'd have a larger userbase than WoW? Can you comprehend how many active players WoW would have if it were free? You're not using your head.Danm_999

If it were a "world", like World of Warcraft, then yes. :) It would have crushed it, like it's crushing it right now. :)

Sure. Infinity Ward, a developer with no experience in MMORPGs, and no experience outside FPS, could make an MMORPG that would do what Sony Online, Funcom, ArenaNet, Mythic Entertainment and the popular licenses of Star Wars, Warhammer, Conan, the Matrix could not. Yes, Infinity Ward, who have never managed to produce a game outside the FPS genre, could do what none of the other giants in the MMORPG genre with decades of experience could do. And it would be just as successful as an FPS on four platforms, with no online fees. I've got to ask at this point, is your brain getting enough oxygen?

You're running out of arguments. :lol: I said "if". Let us imagine it. Then we both know what would have happened. :)

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Kusimekaa

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#33 Kusimekaa
Member since 2007 • 194 Posts

clyde46.

World of Warcraft - released in 2004.

Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare - released in 2007.

Good try, though. :D

Deathlessness

Erm, aren't you kind of contradicting yourself? if Call of duty 4 was released in 2004 i can guarentee it would have less players now, than if it was released in 2007. So the later release is actuley helping it. Plus WoW has had ALOT more unique players, but yes it has been out longer, but it still has had more.

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Danm_999

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#34 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts

[QUOTE="Danm_999"][QUOTE="Deathlessness"]

If it were a "world", like World of Warcraft, then yes. :) It would have crushed it, like it's crushing it right now. :)

Deathlessness

Sure. Infinity Ward, a developer with no experience in MMORPGs, and no experience outside FPS, could make an MMORPG that would do what Sony Online, Funcom, ArenaNet, Mythic Entertainment and the popular licenses of Star Wars, Warhammer, Conan, the Matrix could not. Yes, Infinity Ward, who have never managed to produce a game outside the FPS genre, could do what none of the other giants in the MMORPG genre with decades of experience could do. And it would be just as successful as an FPS on four platforms, with no online fees. I've got to ask at this point, is your brain getting enough oxygen?

You're running out of arguments. :lol: I said "if". Let us imagine it. Then we both know what would have happened. :)

Yes. We both do. Just like everybody else in the industry, Infinity Ward would have been painfully and embarrasingly crushed by Blizzard.
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Fetus5

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#35 Fetus5
Member since 2008 • 366 Posts

Using your logic Wii Fit Dominates them all 8 )

i wonder how many people lose weight doing that lol

im not thinking too many since we prob would seen some ads related to the jarded subway stuff

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boxofwit

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#36 boxofwit
Member since 2007 • 947 Posts

Yeah and Wii play has sold 24 million

error_202
You mean Wiimotes?
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Deathlessness

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#37 Deathlessness
Member since 2009 • 334 Posts

[QUOTE="Deathlessness"]

[QUOTE="Danm_999"] Sure. Infinity Ward, a developer with no experience in MMORPGs, and no experience outside FPS, could make an MMORPG that would do what Sony Online, Funcom, ArenaNet, Mythic Entertainment and the popular licenses of Star Wars, Warhammer, Conan, the Matrix could not. Yes, Infinity Ward, who have never managed to produce a game outside the FPS genre, could do what none of the other giants in the MMORPG genre with decades of experience could do. And it would be just as successful as an FPS on four platforms, with no online fees. I've got to ask at this point, is your brain getting enough oxygen?Danm_999

You're running out of arguments. :lol: I said "if". Let us imagine it. Then we both know what would have happened. :)

Yes. We both do. Just like everybody else in the industry, Infinity Ward would have been painfully and embarrasingly crushed by Blizzard.

Like they are now? :lol: Perhaps you're just a little sad because Call of Duty has become so huge. Infinity Ward's upcoming Modern Warfare 2 will absolutely own StarCraft II in sales, too. :) I mean, the mediocre Call of Duty: World at War sold 11 million in 6 months. StarCraft did it in 11 years. :lol: And the fifth Call of Duty would never have been that successful if it weren't for Infinity Ward's extremely popular shooter. :) Modern Warfare 2, the true sequel, is approaching... :D

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araksik

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#38 araksik
Member since 2009 • 537 Posts

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

[QUOTE="Danm_999"] You seriously believe if Infinity Ward charged $15/month for COD4 they'd have a larger userbase than WoW? Can you comprehend how many active players WoW would have if it were free? You're not using your head.Deathlessness

Not to mention WoW is on PC only and cod is on every gaming platform! Even the DS :lol:

Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare currently has more than 13 million unique users on the Xbox 360 alone. :)

Out of about 30 million, we're talking about an impressive 13 million! And I'm not including the PlayStation or PC numbers.

Out of billions PC owners, approximately 11 - 12 million play World of Warcraft. :)

11-12 million have an active WoW account right now yes. But if you were to put together all the people who quit and all the people who's playing now, that would be a bit more then just 11-12 million, don't you think?:)

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Deathlessness

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#39 Deathlessness
Member since 2009 • 334 Posts

Using your logic Wii Fit Dominates them all 8 )

i wonder how many people lose weight doing that lol

im not thinking too many since we prob would seen some ads related to the jarded subway stuff

Fetus5

Over 20 million have played Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare's online mode. How many have played Wii Fit's online mode? :)

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Danm_999

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#40 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts

Like they are now? :lol:Deathlessness

No, not like they are now, because it's a different situation.

Remember, you asked me to imagine a different scenario to present reality? Or is your short term memory shot?

Perhaps you're just a little sad because Call of Duty has become so huge.Deathlessness

Why? I enjoy the Call of Duty series. I hope it all the success in the world, as long as it keeps to it's quality.

Infinity Ward's upcoming Modern Warfare 2 will absolutely own StarCraft II in sales, too. :) I mean, the mediocre Call of Duty: World at War sold 11 million in 6 months. StarCraft did it in 11 years. :lol: And the fifth Call of Duty would never have been that successful if it weren't for Infinity Ward's extremely popular shooter. :) Modern Warfare 2, the true sequel, is approaching... :D

Deathlessness

I grow tired of pointing out why its stupid to compare the success of a game released in 1997 on a single platform, to a game released a decade later, when the market was exponentially bigger, and on all platforms.

I've got a better idea, go pitch your COD MMORPG to Infinity Ward and watch them laugh you out the door.

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clyde46

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#41 clyde46
Member since 2005 • 49061 Posts

clyde46.

World of Warcraft - released in 2004.

Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare - released in 2007.

Good try, though. :D

Deathlessness
ok then what

[QUOTE="Fetus5"]

Using your logic Wii Fit Dominates them all 8 )

i wonder how many people lose weight doing that lol

im not thinking too many since we prob would seen some ads related to the jarded subway stuff

Deathlessness

Over 20 million have played Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare's online mode. How many have played Wii Fit's online mode? :)

Yes, but how many have left to play other games. WoW has a constant 11-12 million users a day.
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Deathlessness

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#42 Deathlessness
Member since 2009 • 334 Posts

[QUOTE="Deathlessness"]

Like they are now? :lol:Danm_999

No, not like they are now, because it's a different situation.

Remember, you asked me to imagine a different scenario to present reality? Or is your short term memory shot?

Perhaps you're just a little sad because Call of Duty has become so huge.Deathlessness

Why? I enjoy the Call of Duty series. I hope it all the success in the world, as long as it keeps to it's quality.

Infinity Ward's upcoming Modern Warfare 2 will absolutely own StarCraft II in sales, too. :) I mean, the mediocre Call of Duty: World at War sold 11 million in 6 months. StarCraft did it in 11 years. :lol: And the fifth Call of Duty would never have been that successful if it weren't for Infinity Ward's extremely popular shooter. :) Modern Warfare 2, the true sequel, is approaching... :D

Deathlessness

I grow tired of pointing out why its stupid to compare the success of a game released in 1997 on a single platform, to a game released a decade later, when the market was exponentially bigger, and on all platforms.

I've got a better idea, go pitch your COD MMORPG to Infinity Ward and watch them laugh you out the door.

Well, StarCraft II will be released in 2009, when the market is "exponentially bigger". Let's see it coming close to Modern Warfare 2. :cry:

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Danm_999

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#43 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts

[QUOTE="Danm_999"]

[QUOTE="Deathlessness"]

Like they are now? :lol:Deathlessness

No, not like they are now, because it's a different situation.

Remember, you asked me to imagine a different scenario to present reality? Or is your short term memory shot?

Perhaps you're just a little sad because Call of Duty has become so huge.Deathlessness

Why? I enjoy the Call of Duty series. I hope it all the success in the world, as long as it keeps to it's quality.

Infinity Ward's upcoming Modern Warfare 2 will absolutely own StarCraft II in sales, too. :) I mean, the mediocre Call of Duty: World at War sold 11 million in 6 months. StarCraft did it in 11 years. :lol: And the fifth Call of Duty would never have been that successful if it weren't for Infinity Ward's extremely popular shooter. :) Modern Warfare 2, the true sequel, is approaching... :D

Deathlessness

I grow tired of pointing out why its stupid to compare the success of a game released in 1997 on a single platform, to a game released a decade later, when the market was exponentially bigger, and on all platforms.

I've got a better idea, go pitch your COD MMORPG to Infinity Ward and watch them laugh you out the door.

Well, StarCraft II will be released in 2009, when the market is "exponentially bigger". Let's see it coming close to Modern Warfare 2. :cry:

Finally, a sensible statement.
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Deathlessness

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#44 Deathlessness
Member since 2009 • 334 Posts

[QUOTE="Deathlessness"] ok then what [QUOTE="Deathlessness"]

[QUOTE="Fetus5"]

Using your logic Wii Fit Dominates them all 8 )

i wonder how many people lose weight doing that lol

im not thinking too many since we prob would seen some ads related to the jarded subway stuff

clyde46

Over 20 million have played Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare's online mode. How many have played Wii Fit's online mode? :)

Yes, but how many have left to play other games. WoW has a constant 11-12 million users a day.

:lol: Not even close. Only "active" players. :) Don't let Blizzard fool you.

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clyde46

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#45 clyde46
Member since 2005 • 49061 Posts

[QUOTE="clyde46"][QUOTE="Deathlessness"]

Over 20 million have played Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare's online mode. How many have played Wii Fit's online mode? :)

Deathlessness

Yes, but how many have left to play other games. WoW has a constant 11-12 million users a day.

:lol: Not even close. Only "active" players. :) Don't let Blizzard fool you.

Screw the messed up quotes. ok then, in 3 years time WoW will have more paying users and where will COD4 be?
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SpruceCaboose

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#46 SpruceCaboose
Member since 2005 • 24589 Posts
And you don't pay $15 a month for CoD either, which could be a difference maker.
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clembo1990

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#47 clembo1990
Member since 2005 • 9976 Posts
And you don't pay $15 a month for CoD either, which could be a difference maker. SpruceCaboose
Different games, different rules.
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rgame1

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#48 rgame1
Member since 2008 • 2526 Posts
no COD4 has not surpassed 17 mill. Mario kart has. Please don't swap numbers.
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Philmon

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#49 Philmon
Member since 2003 • 1454 Posts
Where are you getting your info? As of May 2009 COD4 has sold 13 million. According to a Jan 09 article 14 million unique players have logged online across Xbox 360 and PS3 with COD4. Of those 71.1% (7,111,508 people) have completed F.N.G., the game's first mission. That means that 28.9% of the people who played Call of Duty 4 either didn't finish the first level before turning the game off or played it solely in multiplayer modes. 68.8% (6,886,509 people) have completed the Cargo Ship mission. 46.5% (5,654,643 people) have beaten the game on any difficulty. Only 2.8% (283,632 people) completed Airplane on the Veteran difficulty.
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SpruceCaboose

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#50 SpruceCaboose
Member since 2005 • 24589 Posts
[QUOTE="SpruceCaboose"]And you don't pay $15 a month for CoD either, which could be a difference maker. clembo1990
Different games, different rules.

My point exactly. How many people whould be in CoD if they played by the same rules as WaW? Not many.