Datel takes Microsoft to court over memory card lockout

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/26212/Memory_Card_Maker_Accuses_Microsoft_Of_Predatory_Conduct_In_Antitrust_Suit.php

M$ still hasn't learnt that its predatory monopolistic behavior is illegal.

I hope no one begrudges me my hate of Microsoft and my suggestion to steer away from their products.Brownesque

Um, it's not a monopoly when it's THEIR console. People love to throw around the term 'monopoly' when criticising microsoft, yet few ever back it up. They're not monopolizing their own product. If they dont want other companies making products for it that's up to them. BMW stop other companies making mods for their cars, that's not illegal. They dont want you screwing with their stuff. Doctor-McNinja

I agree with Dr. McNinja, I believe that it's their choice if they will allow third party harware support on their console. Still they could be a little nicer about it.

Um, it's not a monopoly when it's THEIR console. People love to throw around the term 'monopoly' when criticising microsoft, yet few ever back it up. They're not monopolizing their own product. If they dont want other companies making products for it that's up to them. BMW stop other companies making mods for their cars, that's not illegal. They dont want you screwing with their stuff. Doctor-McNinja

The question is can a 1st party control accessories for their platform, and How much control do they have? That was answered years ago by courts when Nintendo sued so many companies from Blockbuster (renting was allowed!) to publishers. It's all a big cycle.

Either way, we will just have to wait for the courts to decide again, but precendent is in Datel's favor...not that I really care, as I use 1st Party stuff 95% of the time anyways (arcade sticks or special peripherals a la Rockband are my only vice.)

[QUOTE="Doctor-McNinja"]Um, it's not a monopoly when it's THEIR console. People love to throw around the term 'monopoly' when criticising microsoft, yet few ever back it up. They're not monopolizing their own product. If they dont want other companies making products for it that's up to them. BMW stop other companies making mods for their cars, that's not illegal. They dont want you screwing with their stuff. RedruM_I

[QUOTE="Doctor-McNinja"]Um, it's not a monopoly when it's THEIR console. People love to throw around the term 'monopoly' when criticising microsoft, yet few ever back it up. They're not monopolizing their own product. If they dont want other companies making products for it that's up to them. BMW stop other companies making mods for their cars, that's not illegal. They dont want you screwing with their stuff. RedruM_I

[QUOTE="RedruM_I"][QUOTE="Doctor-McNinja"]Um, it's not a monopoly when it's THEIR console. People love to throw around the term 'monopoly' when criticising microsoft, yet few ever back it up. They're not monopolizing their own product. If they dont want other companies making products for it that's up to them. BMW stop other companies making mods for their cars, that's not illegal. They dont want you screwing with their stuff. HavocV3

Atari decided that only 1st Party games were allowed on their consoles back in the day. It was THEIR CONSOLE, the courts decided that ATARI was wrong, that indeed 3rd Party companies could exist.

Nintendo decided that Renting games was wrong, and sued Blockbuster and other companies. Again, the Courts told Nintendo that Nintendo was wrong to think that.

There are limits to how much control these companies have, Havoc Version 3.

[QUOTE="Doctor-McNinja"]Um, it's not a monopoly when it's THEIR console. People love to throw around the term 'monopoly' when criticising microsoft, yet few ever back it up. They're not monopolizing their own product. If they dont want other companies making products for it that's up to them. BMW stop other companies making mods for their cars, that's not illegal. They dont want you screwing with their stuff. Brownesque

[QUOTE="RedruM_I"][QUOTE="Doctor-McNinja"]Um, it's not a monopoly when it's THEIR console. People love to throw around the term 'monopoly' when criticising microsoft, yet few ever back it up. They're not monopolizing their own product. If they dont want other companies making products for it that's up to them. BMW stop other companies making mods for their cars, that's not illegal. They dont want you screwing with their stuff. HavocV3

[QUOTE="Doctor-McNinja"]Um, it's not a monopoly when it's THEIR console. People love to throw around the term 'monopoly' when criticising microsoft, yet few ever back it up. They're not monopolizing their own product. If they dont want other companies making products for it that's up to them. BMW stop other companies making mods for their cars, that's not illegal. They dont want you screwing with their stuff. Brownesque

[QUOTE="RedruM_I"][QUOTE="Doctor-McNinja"]Um, it's not a monopoly when it's THEIR console. People love to throw around the term 'monopoly' when criticising microsoft, yet few ever back it up. They're not monopolizing their own product. If they dont want other companies making products for it that's up to them. BMW stop other companies making mods for their cars, that's not illegal. They dont want you screwing with their stuff. Doctor-McNinja

[QUOTE="Doctor-McNinja"]Um, it's not a monopoly when it's THEIR console. People love to throw around the term 'monopoly' when criticising microsoft, yet few ever back it up. They're not monopolizing their own product. If they dont want other companies making products for it that's up to them. BMW stop other companies making mods for their cars, that's not illegal. They dont want you screwing with their stuff. Brownesque

[QUOTE="Brownesque"][QUOTE="Doctor-McNinja"]Um, it's not a monopoly when it's THEIR console. People love to throw around the term 'monopoly' when criticising microsoft, yet few ever back it up. They're not monopolizing their own product. If they dont want other companies making products for it that's up to them. BMW stop other companies making mods for their cars, that's not illegal. They dont want you screwing with their stuff. Doctor-McNinja

don't see the monopoly when it's THEIR console. They choose who gets to make what for their items. $ony does things too, but you won't admit to it. At least I have the dignity to say M$, because all companies want money, so please, stop fooling yourself. unless you are pro-nintendo, no different, there's just no 's'.HavocV3

...It isn't THEIR console. They sold the system to a consumer. It's the consumer's console. You wouldn't agree with Toyota telling you who could make the tires you put on your car (as cited in the Datel suit) would you? Or Samsung telling you what brand DVD player you could hook up to your TV... it's a ridiculous stance.

And perhaps you'd like to cite your examples of Sony doing the same before accusing anyone of singling out MS and ignoring the same practices elsewhere....

[QUOTE="Brownesque"][QUOTE="Doctor-McNinja"]Um, it's not a monopoly when it's THEIR console. People love to throw around the term 'monopoly' when criticising microsoft, yet few ever back it up. They're not monopolizing their own product. If they dont want other companies making products for it that's up to them. BMW stop other companies making mods for their cars, that's not illegal. They dont want you screwing with their stuff. khai411

Good. I hope Datel wins.RedruM_I

^^^. And if they win, hopefully we'll see 3rd party harddrives that cost a fraction of the microsoft ones.

Atari decided that only 1st Party games were allowed on their consoles back in the day. It was THEIR CONSOLE, the courts decided that ATARI was wrong, that indeed 3rd Party companies could exist.

Nintendo decided that Renting games was wrong, and sued Blockbuster and other companies. Again, the Courts told Nintendo that Nintendo was wrong to think that.

There are limits to how much control these companies have, Havoc Version 3.

SolidTy

Except your ignoring the fact that the companies allowed to make 3rd party software or rent games are authorized by the 1st party in question, whereas Datel sells unauthorized accessories.

[QUOTE="RedruM_I"]Good. I hope Datel wins.topgunmv

^^^. And if they win, hopefully we'll see 3rd party harddrives that cost a fraction of the microsoft ones.

[QUOTE="SolidTy"]

Atari decided that only 1st Party games were allowed on their consoles back in the day. It was THEIR CONSOLE, the courts decided that ATARI was wrong, that indeed 3rd Party companies could exist.

Nintendo decided that Renting games was wrong, and sued Blockbuster and other companies. Again, the Courts told Nintendo that Nintendo was wrong to think that.

There are limits to how much control these companies have, Havoc Version 3.

PBSnipes

Except your ignoring the fact that the companies allowed to make 3rd party software or rent games are authorized by the 1st party in question, whereas Datel sells unauthorized accessories.

Ever hear of Game Genie?

[QUOTE="SolidTy"]

Atari decided that only 1st Party games were allowed on their consoles back in the day. It was THEIR CONSOLE, the courts decided that ATARI was wrong, that indeed 3rd Party companies could exist.

Nintendo decided that Renting games was wrong, and sued Blockbuster and other companies. Again, the Courts told Nintendo that Nintendo was wrong to think that.

There are limits to how much control these companies have, Havoc Version 3.

PBSnipes

Except your ignoring the fact that the companies allowed to make 3rd party software or rent games are authorized by the 1st party in question, whereas Datel sells unauthorized accessories.

No, when Atari tried to lock out other companies, their games were not, in fact, authorized by Atari. That's why they sued... and lost :?

We've seen 3rd party controllers, memory cards, cables, ect for generations now. MS is attempting to extiguish any competition in the accessories market by use of FW updates. Both sides will have their say, but precedent is not on MS's side.

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"] Forcing other people out of the picture to increase your own profits is pretty much the definition of a monopoly.Doctor-McNinja

There have always been unlicensed products on consoles, and console makers have repeatedly failed to win court cases against the manufacturers. It'll be interesting to see how this case turns out.

We've seen 3rd party controllers, memory cards, cables, ect for generations now. MS is attempting to extiguish any competition in the accessories market by use of FW updates. Both sides will have their say, but precedent is not on MS's side.

santoron

Forcing other people out of the picture to increase your own profits is pretty much the definition of a monopoly.jalexbrown

Precisely. it also should be noted by those attempting to defend MS that they didn't ever claim that Datel had no legal right to make the cards or sell them... instead they rewrote their FW to not recognize any memory card that stored more than the one MS sells. Doesn't sound like the "legal arguments" people are making are even plausible to MS. If they thought they had legal justification to ban Datel cards, they would have done it in court, and sued for the profits Datel had "illegally" made.

[QUOTE="RedruM_I"] What if M$ decides not to give licenses to anybody? Could Datel or any other take them to court because they didn't let them or M$ can say "It's MY console!!!"?Doctor-McNinja

The judge won't care if M$ is making money or not, they care if they follow the market rules. Datel could equally say that they are in economic trouble and it wouldn't make any difference

I don't see how MS is getting way with this. Its the shear meaning of anti competitive. I really hope Datel is able to win.

There have always been unlicensed products on consoles, and console makers have repeatedly failed to win court cases against the manufacturers. It'll be interested to see how this case turns out.

topgunmv

[QUOTE="Brownesque"] Oh please, one accessory is software, the other is hardware. There is no fundamental difference, there isn't even a functional difference. Microsoft is TRYING to monopolize the use of products on their platform. Is it their platform? Yes, it's their platform, and you'd all DAMN well remember that when you consider buying one of their products, but that doesn't mean this is good for the industry, good for those manufacturers, or good for ANY consumer on the market. All of you, particularly 360 owners, should be seething hatred over their decision to lock out EXISTING third party memory cards many of you may already have. You've already got one sole wireless controller manufacturer (Microsoft), one sole wi-fi adapter manufacturer, one component cable manufacturer, one charge cable manufacturer, one wired and wireless headset manufacturer, one hard drive manufacturer, and one TV remote manufacturer. I might have painted a few monopolies that don't exist, but that's really besides the point. Nearly every piece of hardware you own associated with an Xbox is Microsoft made. Wanna know how many people come in on a regular basis with faulty 360 headsets? There's a reason for that. Oh, can I get a new headset? Um....how about that Microsoft headset. Wow, I've had 3 of these break already.....um.....how about a wireless headset? Oh, the only one you got is Microsoft brand? Um....okay.Doctor-McNinja

That is the essence of an antitrust suit. They are not in a position to have that sort of control.

you can decide to not give out specifications for creating peripherals. Not lock dem out because they made own a console.

Even Sony knows that, they used mostly standard specs for addons this gen.

The judge won't care if M$ is making money or not, they care if they follow the market rules. Datel could equally say that they are in economic trouble and it wouldn't make any difference

RedruM_I

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"] Forcing other people out of the picture to increase your own profits is pretty much the definition of a monopoly.santoron

Precisely. it also should be noted by those attempting to defend MS that they didn't ever claim that Datel had no legal right to make the cards or sell them... instead they rewrote their FW to not recognize any memory card that stored more than the one MS sells. Doesn't sound like the "legal arguments" people are making are even plausible to MS. If they thought they had legal justification to ban Datel cards, they would have done it in court, and sued for the profits Datel had "illegally" made.

[QUOTE="topgunmv"]

There have always been unlicensed products on consoles, and console makers have repeatedly failed to win court cases against the manufacturers. It'll be interested to see how this case turns out.

Doctor-McNinja

Incorrect. There are of course "officially licensed" 3rd party accesories, and they get a fancy emblem or something to certify that the device, although not made by (insert company here) has been tested to meet the high standards of said company. But there have always been unlicensed products too. That's the entire point of pointing out your "official license" on the product. I have unlicensed PS1 and PS2 memory cards, and the manufacturers weren't sued for illegally selling accesories.

Like I said above, MS never made a legal arguement that Datel was illegally profiting off the 360. Instead they used their position to render any memory cards larger than their own as useless. If MS thought they had a legal claim against Datel, they would have used it to collect all the ill-gotten profits.