Did Miyamoto invent the sandbox?

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Witchsight

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#1 Witchsight
Member since 2004 • 12145 Posts

I was just thinking today, the first time i heard the term "sandbox" in gaming was when Miyamoto was explaining his hopes and aspirations for Mario64. Saying something along the lines that his wish was realized with mario, to have a open level game where you could go anywhere within its borders, like a sandbox.

Did he invent the term, or just grab it from somewhere?

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Xerlaoth

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#2 Xerlaoth
Member since 2005 • 1059 Posts

Miyamoto invented everything, seriously. 'Cept the internet.

Actually, I don't know. Might have.

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river_rat3117

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#3 river_rat3117
Member since 2003 • 3474 Posts
maybe the term, but mario64 wasnt the first sanbox game
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Zeliard9

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#4 Zeliard9
Member since 2007 • 6030 Posts
Maybe, but I remember the word REALLY started being tossed around after GTA3 came out, even though there were games before it with arguably sandbox gameplay, like Deus Ex.
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OremLK

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#5 OremLK
Member since 2007 • 745 Posts
I believe Sid Meier and Will Wright pioneered sandbox games, regardless of who came up with the term (and I doubt it was Miyamoto).
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HarlockJC

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#6 HarlockJC
Member since 2006 • 25546 Posts

Miyamoto invented everything, seriously. 'Cept the internet.

Actually, I don't know. Might have.

Xerlaoth

yeah that was Al Gore that invented the internet

at least that is what he said

back on topic:

Your right Miyamoto has done more for gaming than any other one man

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Witchsight

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#7 Witchsight
Member since 2004 • 12145 Posts

Maybe, but I remember the word REALLY started being tossed around after GTA3 came out, even though there were games before it with arguably sandbox gameplay, like Deus Ex. Zeliard9

And then every game that came out that was free roam was described as "Kind of like GTA but a little bit different". How lame :(

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Kratos_OMEGA

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#8 Kratos_OMEGA
Member since 2007 • 2872 Posts
Probably not but games like M64 and OoT are good to have on your CV. They were both revolutionary.
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Weslii

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#9 Weslii
Member since 2007 • 2309 Posts
What about Zelda 1 ?
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OremLK

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#10 OremLK
Member since 2007 • 745 Posts
People on this forum really need to learn more about the history of PC gaming. It kind of surprises me that there's anyone here who wouldn't think of Meier and Wright upon hearing the term "sandbox", but I guess it shouldn't.
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Supafly1

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#11 Supafly1
Member since 2003 • 4441 Posts

Maybe, but I remember the word REALLY started being tossed around after GTA3 came out, even though there were games before it with arguably sandbox gameplay, like Deus Ex. Zeliard9

Isn't GTA 1 sandbox too? I know it's in 2D but still, you could go anywhere and do anything (well not anything but you can't do everything in other games either).

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yodariquo

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#12 yodariquo
Member since 2005 • 6631 Posts
What are you calling "Sandbox"? Free-roaming, open-ended adventure games date back ages. See: Adventure although I wouldn't be too surprised if something predated that.
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Danm_999

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#13 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts

People on this forum really need to learn more about the history of PC gaming. It kind of surprises me that there's anyone here who wouldn't think of Meier and Wright upon hearing the term "sandbox", but I guess it shouldn't.OremLK

Sends a shudder down my spine when people say the NES saved gaming and not the NES saved console gaming.

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Witchsight

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#14 Witchsight
Member since 2004 • 12145 Posts
Well HE called Mario64 sandbox , so i take it he meant 3D and open. Can 2d count as sandbox really? I doubt it
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OremLK

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#15 OremLK
Member since 2007 • 745 Posts

Well HE called Mario64 sandbox , so i take it he meant 3D and open. Can 2d count as sandbox really? I doubt itWitchsight

"Sandbox gaming" typically refers to a game you play around and perform activities in without needing to "beat" it. It has nothing to do with 3D. When people say Mario 64 has sandbox aspects to its gameplay, they're referring to the ability to go to many different worlds at any time and perform any task you like, or just explore, without having to stick to a linear path progressing you towards the end of the game.

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stika

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#16 stika
Member since 2005 • 2628 Posts

[QUOTE="OremLK"]People on this forum really need to learn more about the history of PC gaming. It kind of surprises me that there's anyone here who wouldn't think of Meier and Wright upon hearing the term "sandbox", but I guess it shouldn't.Danm_999

Sends a shudder down my spine when people say the NES saved gaming and not the NES saved console gaming.

i agree 100%

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donalbane

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#17 donalbane
Member since 2003 • 16383 Posts

Don't know if he invented the term, but Shadowrun on the Genesis had GTA style play back in the day. That was the 1st time I played a gamelike that on a console.The Ultimaseries was the 1st PC game I played that hadgo anywhere, do anything gameplay and that was in the early 80s. Sohe may have "coined" the term(pun intended) but he sure didn't invent theconcept.

I'mold, btw. Old enough to get all the refferences in the Simpsons game, at least.

EDIT:

JESUS CHRIST, WHEN IS GAMESPOT GOING TO FIX THEIR HTML STUFF! THESE RIDICULOUS SPACING PROBLEMSMUST END!

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stika

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#18 stika
Member since 2005 • 2628 Posts

Well HE called Mario64 sandbox , so i take it he meant 3D and open. Can 2d count as sandbox really? I doubt itWitchsight

Hold on there spunky so sandbox doesnt count on 2D games because its in 2D? wow now that makes a lot of sense

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farnham

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#19 farnham
Member since 2003 • 21147 Posts

WTH are you talking about dawg..

MIYAMOTO INVENTED LIKE EVERYTHING..

He even invented sliced bread

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Witchsight

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#20 Witchsight
Member since 2004 • 12145 Posts

[QUOTE="Witchsight"]Well HE called Mario64 sandbox , so i take it he meant 3D and open. Can 2d count as sandbox really? I doubt itOremLK

"Sandbox gaming" typically refers to a game you play around and perform activities in without needing to "beat" it. It has nothing to do with 3D. When people say Mario 64 has sandbox aspects to its gameplay, they're referring to the ability to go to many different worlds at any time and perform any task you like, or just explore, without having to stick to a linear path progressing you towards the end of the game.

Isnt that just called non linear ;)

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OremLK

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#21 OremLK
Member since 2007 • 745 Posts

By the way, Mario 64 and Grand Theft Auto are not the quintessential "sandbox" games. They do have sandbox elements, in that they're fairly nonlinear and give the player much freedom in what he chooses to do, but they also typically have set, connected goals and a main storyline with an ending. (Well, I can't speak for all the GTA games since I haven't played them all, but the ones I did had a storyline with a "last boss").

The defining sandbox game would probably be Sim City, or even The Sims if you want to fast forward a number of years. This is because there is no storyline and no ending, and the goals are almost entirely defined by what the player wants to do.

EDIT: No, nonlinear is different. Nonlinear might mean pursuing a set goal in whatever order you want, but you still have to achieve all the same goals no matter what order you do it in. Sandbox refers to allowing the player to set their own goals and achieve whatever they want to achieve.

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GunSmith1_basic

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#22 GunSmith1_basic
Member since 2002 • 10548 Posts

I guess mario 64 has sandbox elements, but I would say that body harvest is the first sandbox game. It was made as a nintendo/DMA collaboration. DMA would later be bought by rockstar and renamed rockstar north. The basic model for GTA3 was body harvest, which seems obvious in retrospect.

as for pc games like sim city, sims, and I suppose civilization, I would not call those sandbox games. Maybe the sims (hard to say because I think that "game" sucks), but I think that the right term for civilization and sim city is "god game". There is a subtle difference there

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Witchsight

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#23 Witchsight
Member since 2004 • 12145 Posts
Im trying to wrap my head around whether the sims and other ilkare considered sandbox in the terms im thinking. It seems like it would be a sandbox for the kids in special ed to play in. The borders dont really matter, you just stay in the middle till you want out.
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Tamashii-sosaku

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#24 Tamashii-sosaku
Member since 2003 • 2172 Posts

I think you have to distinguish between the terms sandbox, non-linear, free roamingand emergent games. Mario 64 was free-roaming but not really a sand box game. The comcept of a sand box is that it gives you a variety of tools to use within the confines of the sandbox itself. As someone else said this is much more along the lines of the Sim city and Sims games. Mario 64 has a very linear path set out by the designer that the player has to navigate using the tools given to him. Sandbox is more along the lines of simply giving people tools but with no set objective or specific objective of what they are to be used for.

e.g. Mario gives you a trampoline. The player must use it to cross a gap or reach a higher area.

The sims gives you a tool for making walls.There is no specifictask that they were designed for so people can use them how they want.

In short free-roaming simply means players are given alot of free movement in and around their enviroment. Sandbox is moer about creating things with tools you have been given. i.e. making a sandcastle in the sandbox by using the bucket and the trowel, or perhaps making amoat and filling it with water. In essense you are not creating anything in Mario 64, you just have alot of space and freedom to move about in.

Free roamingis essentially a game that gives you free movement within the set game world. Bet it a city, an overworldor a level like in Mario. Sandbox is as I explained above. Non-linear can be as simple as givingthe player a choice of 2 options or two ways of doing things instead of forcing them to do one to obviously much more expansive versions of non-linearity. And finally Emergent gameplay (Or is it Immergent? I've never seen it written down.) is essentially that gives players an immergent enviroment with which they can interact with in many different ways.Players are encouraged to find their own stratergies or solutiong by harnesing the immersive enviroment that surrounds them. This most often means physics but there are other forms. Again I'm not sure if it's "Emergent" in that the solutions emerge as the player explores and experiments or is "Immergent" in the sense that players are placed in an immersive enviroment with numerous layers of interactivity and immersion that players then use for their own ends.

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GunSmith1_basic

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#25 GunSmith1_basic
Member since 2002 • 10548 Posts

I think you have to distinguish between the terms sandbox, non-linear, free roamingand emergent games. Mario 64 was free-roaming but not really a sand box game. The comcept of a sand box is that it gives you a variety of tools to use within the confines of the sandbox itself. As someone else said this is much more along the lines of the Sim city and Sims games. Mario 64 has a very linear path set out by the designer that the player has to navigate using the tools given to him. Sandbox is more along the lines of simply giving people tools but with no set objective or specific objective of what they are to be used for.

e.g. Mario gives you a trampoline. The player must use it to cross a gap or reach a higher area.

The sims gives you a tool for making walls.There is no specifictask that they were designed for so people can use them how they want.

In short free-roaming simply means players are given alot of free movement in and around their enviroment. Sandbox is moer about creating things with tools you have been given. i.e. making a sandcastle in the sandbox by using the bucket and the trowel, or perhaps making amoat and filling it with water. In essense you are not creating anything in Mario 64, you just have alot of space and freedom to move about in.

Free roamingis essentially a game that gives you free movement within the set game world. Bet it a city, an overworldor a level like in Mario. Sandbox is as I explained above. Non-linear can be as simple as givingthe player a choice of 2 options or two ways of doing things instead of forcing them to do one to obviously much more expansive versions of non-linearity. And finally Emergent gameplay (Or is it Immergent? I've never seen it written down.) is essentially that gives players an immergent enviroment with which they can interact with in many different ways.Players are encouraged to find their own stratergies or solutiong by harnesing the immersive enviroment that surrounds them. This most often means physics but there are other forms. Again I'm not sure if it's "Emergent" in that the solutions emerge as the player explores and experiments or is "Immergent" in the sense that players are placed in an immersive enviroment with numerous layers of interactivity and immersion that players then use for their own ends.

Tamashii-sosaku

I have to disagree with some things. Like I said before, I feel that simcity and civilization are part of a genre called "god games". Remember that regardless of logic, GTA is considered a sandbox game even though simcity might work better with that analogy. I can see how the sims are a sandbox game, but to me it is more of a dollhouse. Maybe that means it is a sandbox game, I'm not sure.

God games are like chess. You control the pieces and you try to develop strategies with them. I suppose that means that sports games are very related to god games. Think about it. You're not the coach, you're every player on your team

Sandbox games are like a toy chest. You can have a goal but ultimately you can do anything you want to. There are multiple avenues for you and you dont have to necessarily be constructive. In fact, I would say that an important aspect of a sandbox game is that you can do things destructive to you're goal, which is much less prevalent in a god game. In sim city or civilization you can choose to do the unstrategic thing, but your satisfaction in doing so is not a featured element of the gameplay. In god games, any thrill you get from being destructive is all up to your imagination. And, there is something wrong with calling sims a sandbox game, imo. Maybe it's the "game" part of the term.

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saolin323

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#26 saolin323
Member since 2007 • 3121 Posts

I was just thinking today, the first time i heard the term "sandbox" in gaming was when Miyamoto was explaining his hopes and aspirations for Mario64. Saying something along the lines that his wish was realized with mario, to have a open level game where you could go anywhere within its borders, like a sandbox.

Did he invent the term, or just grab it from somewhere?

Witchsight

That is what i loved in Zelda for its time, the freedom and fully 3D world, and that is i always loved WRPG's more then JRPG's, not that i am not a huge JRPG fans though, but they feel too confined, especially for this gen

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Xolver

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#27 Xolver
Member since 2005 • 2052 Posts

Well HE called Mario64 sandbox , so i take it he meant 3D and open. Can 2d count as sandbox really? I doubt itWitchsight

Any type of game doesn't count on DS and Wii, because they haven't good graphics. Only PS3/PSP/360 games do.

See? When I want to try and idolize something for no good reason other than being a fanboy, I can, too.

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frankeyser

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#28 frankeyser
Member since 2004 • 5667 Posts

the first sand box type game i can remember playing was simons quests. seriously you could wonder all around the game world from teh very begining. i atriubute it to bad level design but you could play for hours and never even beat the game although you had defeated all the dungeons.

it had a real sandbox feel to it.

i dont think any developer actaully created the sandbox idea. i mean it has always been a want of developers to make open ended adventure games. i guess the first real sandbox game would be MMO's you can play forever.

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nytrospawn

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#29 nytrospawn
Member since 2003 • 3962 Posts
David Brebon started sandbox gameplay with Elite and Frontier : Elite 2
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#30 blue_hazy_basic  Moderator
Member since 2002 • 30854 Posts

People on this forum really need to learn more about the history of PC gaming. It kind of surprises me that there's anyone here who wouldn't think of Meier and Wright upon hearing the term "sandbox", but I guess it shouldn't.OremLK

Console kids have no concept that gaming was around before consoles.

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GundamGuy0

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#31 GundamGuy0
Member since 2003 • 10970 Posts

Zelda 1 is kind of sandbox...

It just drops you into the game and doesn't give you any direction, and you don't have to do anyting in any order...

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GunSmith1_basic

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#32 GunSmith1_basic
Member since 2002 • 10548 Posts

Zelda 1 is kind of sandbox...

It just drops you into the game and doesn't give you any direction, and you don't have to do anyting in any order...

GundamGuy0
that's like a sandbox from hell though, especially since the last dungeon is buried so deep in the sand that almost no one can find it
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Tamashii-sosaku

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#33 Tamashii-sosaku
Member since 2003 • 2172 Posts
I have to disagree with some things. Like I said before, I feel that simcity and civilization are part of a genre called "god games". Remember that regardless of logic, GTA is considered a sandbox game even though simcity might work better with that analogy. I can see how the sims are a sandbox game, but to me it is more of a dollhouse. Maybe that means it is a sandbox game, I'm not sure.

God games are like chess. You control the pieces and you try to develop strategies with them. I suppose that means that sports games are very related to god games. Think about it. You're not the coach, you're every player on your team

Sandbox games are like a toy chest. You can have a goal but ultimately you can do anything you want to. There are multiple avenues for you and you dont have to necessarily be constructive. In fact, I would say that an important aspect of a sandbox game is that you can do things destructive to you're goal, which is much less prevalent in a god game. In sim city or civilization you can choose to do the unstrategic thing, but your satisfaction in doing so is not a featured element of the gameplay. In god games, any thrill you get from being destructive is all up to your imagination. And, there is something wrong with calling sims a sandbox game, imo. Maybe it's the "game" part of the term.

GunSmith1_basic

GTA is a sandbox game in a different manner to The Sims etc. The difference being that The Sims gives you tools to play with while GTA gives you toys. I think the real true and pure meaning of a sandbox game despite how it often gets used is that there isn't really any objective you are given to achieve. You can't win or beat something like The Sims or Simcity, they just never end. With something like Chess or GTA you are given very specific objectives to achieve but are given alot of freedom in how to go about it. in sandbox games you are essentially playing for the sake of playing, the only real objectives are those that you set for yourself.

If you play in a real life sandbox then you are playing for your own amusement. If you want to build a castle or a big pair of boobies or bury your own legs then those are objectives you set for yourself. No one has asked or told you to do these things. It's nothing to do with how much you control.

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OremLK

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#34 OremLK
Member since 2007 • 745 Posts

GTA is a sandbox game in a different manner to The Sims etc. The difference being that The Sims gives you tools to play with while GTA gives you toys. I think the real true and pure meaning of a sandbox game despite how it often gets used is that there isn't really any objective you are given to achieve. You can't win or beat something like The Sims or Simcity, they just never end. With something like Chess or GTA you are given very specific objectives to achieve but are given alot of freedom in how to go about it. in sandbox games you are essentially playing for the sake of playing, the only real objectives are those that you set for yourself.

If you play in a real life sandbox then you are playing for your own amusement. If you want to build a castle or a big pair of boobies or bury your own legs then those are objectives you set for yourself. No one has asked or told you to do these things. It's nothing to do with how much you control.

Tamashii-sosaku

Bingo, this guy knows what it's about.

I'd like to add that something can be both a "God game" and a sandbox game. Sandbox gaming is not a genre in the traditional sense, it's a type of gameplay that can be applied to many different genres.

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Planeforger

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#35 Planeforger
Member since 2004 • 20134 Posts

Zelda 1 is kind of sandbox...

It just drops you into the game and doesn't give you any direction, and you don't have to do anyting in any order...

GundamGuy0

But the same could be said about the early Ultima games, which were out before The Legend of Zelda, and I'm fairly certain that Ultima wasn't the first 'sandbox' series (although it was probably the first that allowed the player to hijack enemy vehicles).

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kort-nilsen

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#36 kort-nilsen
Member since 2004 • 1161 Posts
Miyamoto invented gaming.
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Eothein

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#37 Eothein
Member since 2006 • 989 Posts

He may have invented the term but not the genre, they'be been around for over 20 years now. Mario 64 wasn't even the first 3d sandbox game, games like Elite (1984)spring to mind.

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skrat_01

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#38 skrat_01
Member since 2007 • 33767 Posts

I believe Sid Meier and Will Wright pioneered sandbox games, regardless of who came up with the term (and I doubt it was Miyamoto).OremLK
Damn straight.

Nice to see other informed users :P

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skrat_01

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#39 skrat_01
Member since 2007 • 33767 Posts
Miyamoto invented gaming.kort-nilsen

[QUOTE="OremLK"]People on this forum really need to learn more about the history of PC gaming. It kind of surprises me that there's anyone here who wouldn't think of Meier and Wright upon hearing the term "sandbox", but I guess it shouldn't.blue_hazy_basic

Console kids have no concept that gaming was around before consoles.

............... in the Arcades!

Huuurah!

:P

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JAMES_L_BROOKS

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#40 JAMES_L_BROOKS
Member since 2005 • 1463 Posts

I was just thinking today, the first time i heard the term "sandbox" in gaming was when Miyamoto was explaining his hopes and aspirations for Mario64. Saying something along the lines that his wish was realized with mario, to have a open level game where you could go anywhere within its borders, like a sandbox.

Did he invent the term, or just grab it from somewhere?

Witchsight

maybe the term, but mario64 wasnt the first sanbox gameriver_rat3117

no... lol

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Blommen

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#41 Blommen
Member since 2003 • 1337 Posts
I'm thinking the early Elder Scrolls games and dungeon keeper and then black&white, but they were not the first just the first I associate with sandbox gameplay.
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subrosian

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#42 subrosian
Member since 2005 • 14232 Posts
Actually the first sandbox game was an arcade game released years before the NES was on the market. The term "sandbox" wasn't in common usage yet, but there you have it.