D**n, that's a lotta' Wii hatin'!

So now that Q1 2007 is behind us, I'm haven't been doing too much posting.  I spent all my time playin' some games, like God of War, Shadow of the Colossus, Crackdown, Lost Planet, Super Paper Mario, Sonic and the Secret Rings, heck even Drake of the 99 Dragons.  See, there's lots of love for all three from me.  I like Xbox and the 360, I'm not a huge FPS guy and I hate Halo, but Kameo and Oblivion are nice games to play on the weekend.  I'm getting into some of the first-party Sony stuff I missed out on which I'm finding out is really good.  Plus I like music games like Amplitude and Guitar Hero, and Sony have traditionally been the place to get that stuff.  Man, I'd even buy a PS3 if I could get the cheaper model, which I can't.  But I'm not a manticore, very few people are.  I like Nintendo, to me they can do no wrong (with the exception of Reggie) in the video game world.  Sony's reputation for making shoddy hardware (I had to replace several PSones and 2s), and the fact that all multiplat games have usually been the worst on Playstation whatever, coupled with the arrogance of guys like Jack Tretton have caused me to criticize them severely.

But anyway, let's cut to the chase.  I pop back in to System Wars from time to time and find a freakin' lot of threads that go like this "I'm a cow/lemming and I used to hate the PS3/360, but now I don't.  I see that Sony/Microsoft has built a good machine and we need to stop bashing each other.  What we really need to bash is the Wii."  This opening statement is usually followed by some rant or other about the Wii's graphics or physics, or lack of DVD playback (which to me is especially pointless).  The post will usually be closed out with some comment likening Wii owners to homosexuals or the Wii remote to a phalus or magical fairy wand, which is getting rather tiresome at this point.

My question is, why do you need to bash the Wii more than the 360 or PS3?  It's a budget system, it's got some good games, a neat controller, some interesting little extra features with the always-on functionality, and it's going to eke past what was possible last gen hardware-wise.  I mean Wi-fi alone costs you a c-note on the 360, and it's part of the reason the PS3 costs so much.  So it's not like the Wii is overpriced.  So why all the hate?  Is it because the Wii is selling so well?  So what if it is?  Does that mean all those huge, epic, high-budget games are going to start appearing on the Wii as opposed to your system?  No, that's not what the Wii is about.  If the system is such a joke, why waste your time bashing it so fervently?  I know this is System Wars, but I have seen some threads with rational, civil, cordial discussion of ideas from people with differences of opinion so I know it's possible in here.  It doesn't always have to fanboy rants with no fact or logic to them whatsoever.  I dunno', this whole "Let's come together against the Wii" thing just seems a little ridiculous.  They're just video game systems guys.

So what if it is? Does that mean all those huge, epic, high-budget games are going to start appearing on the Wii as opposed to your system?OPbarfer

Actually...yeah, that's pretty much it. 

I think the question is, why wouldn't you bash the Wii?? It basically has no games at this point, and most of its games complain of gameplay problems due to the wiimote.

I think the question is, why wouldn't you bash the Wii?? It basically has no games at this point, and most of its games complain of gameplay problems due to the wiimote.

__poi

[QUOTE="__poi"]

I think the question is, why wouldn't you bash the Wii?? It basically has no games at this point, and most of its games complain of gameplay problems due to the wiimote.

HeedleGlavin

PS3 is trash.  They should be making fun of that too.

 Way I see it, you have to prove yourself before you can get away from the hate of the system.  Neither the Wii or PS3 has done that yet.

Because it's the biggest threat in terms of gaining developer support from the PS3 and 360.
Pangster007

 And taking half of the meaningful gaming market in the process.  I'd hate to see great developers buckle under the influence of publishers who realize, "hey, these Wii consumers don't expext anything in terms of depth and quality.  These suckers are selling like hotcakes! We can just pump out shallow franchise labels and low-cost simple games for pennies on the dollar, hear hear!"

1. Terrible hardware that does nothing to innovate or push the limits of last-gen technology.
2. Exploitation of fan base through shallow, tired, and ancient franchise tags.
3. Lack of innovation -- sell the same franchsed trash, for the 20th time, until aqquiring a new market who actually values a game like Mama's Kitchen more than a game packed with good ideas.
4. Anti-gamer marketing strat that will decrease the overall quality of Nintendo games, and possibily provide a precedent for other companies.
5. Mandatory exotic form of input.
6. Reducing gaming to its most primitive, childish, and basic forms.  Not only does the Wii's current software accomplish this, Nintendo has explicitly stated its hostility toward devoting resources to games that might push more complex ideas and show consumers that video games are much more than childish little toys.

[QUOTE="HeedleGlavin"][QUOTE="__poi"]

I think the question is, why wouldn't you bash the Wii?? It basically has no games at this point, and most of its games complain of gameplay problems due to the wiimote.

__poi

PS3 is trash.  They should be making fun of that too.

 Way I see it, you have to prove yourself before you can get away from the hate of the system.  Neither the Wii or PS3 has done that yet.

[QUOTE="HeedleGlavin"][QUOTE="__poi"]

I think the question is, why wouldn't you bash the Wii?? It basically has no games at this point, and most of its games complain of gameplay problems due to the wiimote.

__poi

PS3 is trash.  They should be making fun of that too.

 Way I see it, you have to prove yourself before you can get away from the hate of the system.  Neither the Wii or PS3 has done that yet.

The PS3 is overpriced and uses a horrible, and mandatory, form of input.

But I don't see how you call it trash.  PS3 hardware makes a legitimate attempt at bridging the gap between the previous gen and the current gen we're currently in.  The Wii, on the otherhand, could not even begin to dream of processing games currently out and in the work for other consoles.  Nor does it exploit a handful of first-party franchises to push sales down the throats of gullible consumers.

[QUOTE="Pangster007"]Because it's the biggest threat in terms of gaining developer support from the PS3 and 360.
FoamingPanda

 And taking half of the meaningful gaming market in the process.  I'd hate to see great developers buckle under the influence of publishers who realize, "hey, these Wii consumers don't expext anything in terms of depth and quality.  These suckers are selling like hotcakes! We can just pump out shallow franchise labels and low-cost simple games for pennies on the dollar, hear hear!"

1. Terrible hardware that does nothing to innovate or push the limits of last-gen technology.
2. Exploitation of fan base through shallow, tired, and ancient franchise tags.
3. Lack of innovation -- sell the same franchsed trash, for the 20th time, until aqquiring a new market who actually values a game like Mama's Kitchen more than a game packed with good ideas.
4. Anti-gamer marketing strat that will decrease the overall quality of Nintendo games, and possibily provide a precedent for other companies.
5. Mandatory exotic form of input.
6. Reducing gaming to its most primitive, childish, and basic forms.  Not only does the Wii's current software accomplish this, Nintendo has explicitly stated its hostility toward devoting resources to games that might push more complex ideas and show consumers that video games are much more than childish little toys.

[QUOTE="Pangster007"]Because it's the biggest threat in terms of gaining developer support from the PS3 and 360.
FoamingPanda

 And taking half of the meaningful gaming market in the process.  I'd hate to see great developers buckle under the influence of publishers who realize, "hey, these Wii consumers don't expext anything in terms of depth and quality.  These suckers are selling like hotcakes! We can just pump out shallow franchise labels and low-cost simple games for pennies on the dollar, hear hear!"

1. Terrible hardware that does nothing to innovate or push the limits of last-gen technology.
2. Exploitation of fan base through shallow, tired, and ancient franchise tags.
3. Lack of innovation -- sell the same franchsed trash, for the 20th time, until aqquiring a new market who actually values a game like Mama's Kitchen more than a game packed with good ideas.
4. Anti-gamer marketing strat that will decrease the overall quality of Nintendo games, and possibily provide a precedent for other companies.
5. Mandatory exotic form of input.
6. Reducing gaming to its most primitive, childish, and basic forms.  Not only does the Wii's current software accomplish this, Nintendo has explicitly stated its hostility toward devoting resources to games that might push more complex ideas and show consumers that video games are much more than childish little toys.

the wii is making a LOT of fanboys mad as hell

its great to see

[QUOTE="FoamingPanda"]

[QUOTE="Pangster007"]Because it's the biggest threat in terms of gaining developer support from the PS3 and 360.
HeedleGlavin

 And taking half of the meaningful gaming market in the process.  I'd hate to see great developers buckle under the influence of publishers who realize, "hey, these Wii consumers don't expext anything in terms of depth and quality.  These suckers are selling like hotcakes! We can just pump out shallow franchise labels and low-cost simple games for pennies on the dollar, hear hear!"

1. Terrible hardware that does nothing to innovate or push the limits of last-gen technology.
2. Exploitation of fan base through shallow, tired, and ancient franchise tags.
3. Lack of innovation -- sell the same franchsed trash, for the 20th time, until aqquiring a new market who actually values a game like Mama's Kitchen more than a game packed with good ideas.
4. Anti-gamer marketing strat that will decrease the overall quality of Nintendo games, and possibily provide a precedent for other companies.
5. Mandatory exotic form of input.
6. Reducing gaming to its most primitive, childish, and basic forms.  Not only does the Wii's current software accomplish this, Nintendo has explicitly stated its hostility toward devoting resources to games that might push more complex ideas and show consumers that video games are much more than childish little toys.

Because it's the biggest threat in terms of gaining developer support from the PS3 and 360.
Pangster007

The fact is...they bash what they can't have. It makes them feel better about not having a Wii. Of course they'll never admit to that but you need to read between the lines.dracula_16

i could buy 10 Wii's but i wont 

allready have one just a diferent name GAMECUBE!

i have the money just not the bad taste :lol:

[QUOTE="dracula_16"]The fact is...they bash what they can't have. It makes them feel better about not having a Wii. Of course they'll never admit to that but you need to read between the lines.molinex

i could buy 10 Wii's but i wont 

allready have one just a diferent name GAMECUBE!

i have the money just not the bad taste :lol:

[QUOTE="dracula_16"]The fact is...they bash what they can't have. It makes them feel better about not having a Wii. Of course they'll never admit to that but you need to read between the lines.molinex

i could buy 10 Wii's but i wont 

allready have one just a diferent name GAMECUBE!

i have the money just not the bad taste :lol:

its mainly the 360 kids bashing the wii. im a ps3 fan and i own one and i do not own a wii. but i do have respect for the wii and wouldnt mind owning one. i do not want a 360. but the majority of the kids on here talkin trash are 360 owners. they are the ones that cry about PC games too. i own an amazing pc. they are just broke little kids crying they need to get a job.

[QUOTE="FoamingPanda"]

[QUOTE="Pangster007"]Because it's the biggest threat in terms of gaining developer support from the PS3 and 360.
ShakeNBake1491

And taking half of the meaningful gaming market in the process. I'd hate to see great developers buckle under the influence of publishers who realize, "hey, these Wii consumers don't expext anything in terms of depth and quality. These suckers are selling like hotcakes! We can just pump out shallow franchise labels and low-cost simple games for pennies on the dollar, hear hear!"

1. Terrible hardware that does nothing to innovate or push the limits of last-gen technology.
2. Exploitation of fan base through shallow, tired, and ancient franchise tags.
3. Lack of innovation -- sell the same franchsed trash, for the 20th time, until aqquiring a new market who actually values a game like Mama's Kitchen more than a game packed with good ideas.
4. Anti-gamer marketing strat that will decrease the overall quality of Nintendo games, and possibily provide a precedent for other companies.
5. Mandatory exotic form of input.
6. Reducing gaming to its most primitive, childish, and basic forms. Not only does the Wii's current software accomplish this, Nintendo has explicitly stated its hostility toward devoting resources to games that might push more complex ideas and show consumers that video games are much more than childish little toys.

Nah they just make me laugh. 

FoamingPanda, you make some good points, but you also prove mine.  Your argument basically begins and ends with graphics/hardware.  First of all, Nintendo have been pretty tight-lipped about the Wiis actual power.  They've gone out of their way to stress how inferior the Wii is hardware-wise to the other two, yet have also said that the system will more or less be a little more powerful than the origional Xbox, which really is nothing to sneeze at.  They've also said that Zelda does not represent the maxed-out capabilities of the Wii, but more of a baseline for what it can do.  So while it's true that the Wii's hardware isn't on the same level as the other two systems, it is going to push the boundaries of what was possible last gen.  Second of all, your rant about Nintendo shoving their old, tired licenses down consumers' throats is absurd.  Counting the PSP version, aren't we looking at seeing 3 God of War games in that many years?  Aren't Sony relying on their established franchises like Ratchet and Clank?  We're waiting on the fourth installment of Metal Gear Solid, and the 13TH! installment of Final Fantasy which Sony are hoping will sell a few systems.  It's the same with Microsoft, who are now giving us the third installment of Halo, I'm sure we'll see a fourth.  And they're depending on Rare to pump out the third Banjo Kazooie game while Epic whips up ANOTHER Gears of War.  So how can you critcize a company for relying on their best-selling franchises?

Finally, Nintendo's franchises have withstood the test of time.  Every time Nintendo double dips and re-releases a game it's met with great reviews and good sales 5 to 10 years after its origional release.  Is that because Nintendo just shoves these games down our throats?  Even here on Gamespot, who are provably harder on Nintendo than the rest of the industry, games like Ocarina of time get AA years and years down the road.  Maybe Nintendo keeps revisiting the series because it sells.  Maybe it sells because it's full of good games.  And Mama's Kitchen is actually called Cooking Mama.  The game is overpriced, but it is pretty innovative, and it's a good game to play with the ladies.

However, as for Nintendo's anti-gamer marketing strategy, touche.  I totally agree with you.  But I think games like Disaster: Day of Crisis and Batallion Wars 2 will balance things out a bit.

FoamingPanda, you make some good points, but you also prove mine. Your argument basically begins and ends with graphics/hardware. First of all, Nintendo have been pretty tight-lipped about the Wiis actual power. They've gone out of their way to stress how inferior the Wii is hardware-wise to the other two, yet have also said that the system will more or less be a little more powerful than the origional Xbox, which really is nothing to sneeze at. They've also said that Zelda does not represent the maxed-out capabilities of the Wii, but more of a baseline for what it can do. So while it's true that the Wii's hardware isn't on the same level as the other two systems, it is going to push the boundaries of what was possible last gen. Second of all, your rant about Nintendo shoving their old, tired licenses down consumers' throats is absurd. Counting the PSP version, aren't we looking at seeing 3 God of War games in that many years? Aren't Sony relying on their established franchises like Ratchet and Clank? We're waiting on the fourth installment of Metal Gear Solid, and the 13TH! installment of Final Fantasy which Sony are hoping will sell a few systems. It's the same with Microsoft, who are now giving us the third installment of Halo, I'm sure we'll see a fourth. And they're depending on Rare to pump out the third Banjo Kazooie game while Epic whips up ANOTHER Gears of War. So how can you critcize a company for relying on their best-selling franchises?

Finally, Nintendo's franchises have withstood the test of time. Every time Nintendo double dips and re-releases a game it's met with great reviews and good sales 5 to 10 years after its origional release. Is that because Nintendo just shoves these games down our throats? Even here on Gamespot, who are provably harder on Nintendo than the rest of the industry, games like Ocarina of time get AA years and years down the road. Maybe Nintendo keeps revisiting the series because it sells. Maybe it sells because it's full of good games. And Mama's Kitchen is actually called Cooking Mama. The game is overpriced, but it is pretty innovative, and it's a good game to play with the ladies.

However, as for Nintendo's anti-gamer marketing strategy, touche. I totally agree with you. But I think games like Disaster: Day of Crisis and Batallion Wars 2 will balance things out a bit.

OPbarfer

I'm mostly in agreement with you and Panda. Just a few notes.

Graphics have always been assotiated with the evolution of games, but they are not the only factor. There are several types of games that rely on more powerful architecture(such complex AI, physics, number of enemies on screen, size of the world, etc...), which would be severely limited on the Wii. So graphics is just part of the universe of advancements of next-gen.

And Final Fantasy isn't a franchise like all those others you mentioned, it's more of a brand like Honda or Jerry Bruckheimer, you can expect a product of certain quality, and with certain standards.

Final Fantasy doesn't reuse the same concept, characters or story from past iterations. When SE says it's making a new FF, you can only assume it's an rpg, it could be futuristic or medieval, it usually has brand new characters, setting and story. Basically it's like a new JRPG IP, but with the Final Fantasy brand in the title.

So now that Q1 2007 is behind us, I'm haven't been doing too much posting.  I spent all my time playin' some games, like God of War, Shadow of the Colossus, Crackdown, Lost Planet, Super Paper Mario, Sonic and the Secret Rings, heck even Drake of the 99 Dragons.  See, there's lots of love for all three from me.  I like Xbox and the 360, I'm not a huge FPS guy and I hate Halo, but Kameo and Oblivion are nice games to play on the weekend.  I'm getting into some of the first-party Sony stuff I missed out on which I'm finding out is really good.  Plus I like music games like Amplitude and Guitar Hero, and Sony have traditionally been the place to get that stuff.  Man, I'd even buy a PS3 if I could get the cheaper model, which I can't.  But I'm not a manticore, very few people are.  I like Nintendo, to me they can do no wrong (with the exception of Reggie) in the video game world.  Sony's reputation for making shoddy hardware (I had to replace several PSones and 2s), and the fact that all multiplat games have usually been the worst on Playstation whatever, coupled with the arrogance of guys like Jack Tretton have caused me to criticize them severely.

But anyway, let's cut to the chase.  I pop back in to System Wars from time to time and find a freakin' lot of threads that go like this "I'm a cow/lemming and I used to hate the PS3/360, but now I don't.  I see that Sony/Microsoft has built a good machine and we need to stop bashing each other.  What we really need to bash is the Wii."  This opening statement is usually followed by some rant or other about the Wii's graphics or physics, or lack of DVD playback (which to me is especially pointless).  The post will usually be closed out with some comment likening Wii owners to homosexuals or the Wii remote to a phalus or magical fairy wand, which is getting rather tiresome at this point.

My question is, why do you need to bash the Wii more than the 360 or PS3?  It's a budget system, it's got some good games, a neat controller, some interesting little extra features with the always-on functionality, and it's going to eke past what was possible last gen hardware-wise.  I mean Wi-fi alone costs you a c-note on the 360, and it's part of the reason the PS3 costs so much.  So it's not like the Wii is overpriced.  So why all the hate?  Is it because the Wii is selling so well?  So what if it is?  Does that mean all those huge, epic, high-budget games are going to start appearing on the Wii as opposed to your system?  No, that's not what the Wii is about.  If the system is such a joke, why waste your time bashing it so fervently?  I know this is System Wars, but I have seen some threads with rational, civil, cordial discussion of ideas from people with differences of opinion so I know it's possible in here.  It doesn't always have to fanboy rants with no fact or logic to them whatsoever.  I dunno', this whole "Let's come together against the Wii" thing just seems a little ridiculous.  They're just video game systems guys.

OPbarfer

WALL-O-TEXT

[QUOTE="molinex"]

[QUOTE="dracula_16"]The fact is...they bash what they can't have. It makes them feel better about not having a Wii. Of course they'll never admit to that but you need to read between the lines.HeedleGlavin

i could buy 10 Wii's but i wont 

allready have one just a diferent name GAMECUBE!

i have the money just not the bad taste :lol:

Its simple, the Wii already has pulled a "gamecube" with its trash software, and kiddy titles + the addition of its gimmiky control setup, and crap graphics.   The wii is already following suite of the Gamecube, with its lackluster game lineup, joke of a online plan ( friends codes :lol: ) And the only thing that is saving this machine is casual's period. 

I have not met a person yet, including parents, friends, and family that can play the Wii for more than a half hour, before they become 100% bored.  My brothers Nintendo Wii has been collecting dust since launch, we both got it the same time, but I sold mine, and he kept his because of his kids, and even they don't like it :lol:  

Mario does not have the same meaning as it once did, neither does Link or Metroid.    This coming from a person that grew up on Atari and NES as my first systems.

Because it's the biggest threat in terms of gaining developer support from the PS3 and 360.
Pangster007

[QUOTE="HeedleGlavin"][QUOTE="molinex"]

[QUOTE="dracula_16"]The fact is...they bash what they can't have. It makes them feel better about not having a Wii. Of course they'll never admit to that but you need to read between the lines.shaggymcp

i could buy 10 Wii's but i wont 

allready have one just a diferent name GAMECUBE!

i have the money just not the bad taste :lol:

Its simple, the Wii already has pulled a "gamecube" with its trash software, and kiddy titles + the addition of its gimmiky control setup, and crap graphics.   The wii is already following suite of the Gamecube, with its lackluster game lineup, joke of a online plan ( friends codes :lol: ) And the only thing that is saving this machine is casual's period. 

I have not met a person yet, including parents, friends, and family that can play the Wii for more than a half hour, before they become 100% bored.  My brothers Nintendo Wii has been collecting dust since launch, we both got it the same time, but I sold mine, and he kept his because of his kids, and even they don't like it :lol:  

Mario does not have the same meaning as it once did, neither does Link or Metroid.    This coming from a person that grew up on Atari and NES as my first systems.

FoamingPanda, you make some good points, but you also prove mine. Your argument basically begins and ends with graphics/hardware. First of all, Nintendo have been pretty tight-lipped about the Wiis actual power. They've gone out of their way to stress how inferior the Wii is hardware-wise to the other two, yet have also said that the system will more or less be a little more powerful than the origional Xbox, which really is nothing to sneeze at. They've also said that Zelda does not represent the maxed-out capabilities of the Wii, but more of a baseline for what it can do.OPbarfer

No, it is something to sneeze at. If gamers don't have serious issues with the regressive hardware policy of Nintendo, their standards have either been butchered, or they consider gaming to be little more than a childish toy. Wii owners are being sold a peice of inferior hardware at an inflated price. Not only are consumers buying this pile of garbage, but some have the audacity to consider it anything more than something you might find in a dolloar store bargain bin.

Second of all, your rant about Nintendo shoving their old, tired licenses down consumers' throats is absurd. Counting the PSP version, aren't we looking at seeing 3 God of War games in that many years? Aren't Sony relying on their established franchises like Ratchet and Clank? We're waiting on the fourth installment of Metal Gear Solid, and the 13TH! installment of Final Fantasy which Sony are hoping will sell a few systems.

This isn't a problem unique to Nintendo. Franchises are a huge problem across the industry, but the problem varies in intensity. I can't think of a single company that lacks new and innovative titles, while pushing franchise titles that are literally in their 10+ rendition, more than Nintendo. Not to mention their franchises are typically far more shallow, hollow, and pointless than other franchises on the market. See my blog posts for more info -- we undervalue the importance of ideas in gaming. If you combine this explotation of franchise titles that are retardedly old, and Nintendo's dubious marketing strats... well, I'll leave it up to you to get an accurate perception on the matter (see my bog if you need help).

I criticize consumers for demanding the same junk for the 50th time and holding it in high esteem.

Finally, Nintendo's franchises have withstood the test of time. Every time Nintendo double dips and re-releases a game it's met with great reviews and good sales 5 to 10 years after its origional release. Is that because Nintendo just shoves these games down our throats? Even here on Gamespot, who are provably harder on Nintendo than the rest of the industry, games like Ocarina of time get AA years and years down the road. Maybe Nintendo keeps revisiting the series because it sells. Maybe it sells because it's full of good games. And Mama's Kitchen is actually called Cooking Mama. The game is overpriced, but it is pretty innovative, and it's a good game to play with the ladies.

Because this industry operates at vastly lower intellectual standards than any other form of entertainment media. Why do you think a childish connotation still plauges gaming?

Consumer demands and expectations are at an all time-low in this industry. We demand and recieve trash, for the most part. You really don't seem to mind re-playing content that has been regurgiated for the tenth time.  An old franchised game might contain next-gen graphics, and sometimes gameplay, but intellectually, gamers are still muddling around in ideas, marketing icons, and franchise tags that are well over ten years old.

But, you're correct, I can only hate Nintendo to a certain extent for simply meeting our horrible and flawed demands.

Please see my post on pleasure to understand why we evaluate and recieve games in a completely warped, distorted, and strange manner. And, no, I'd sooner piss on Mama's Kitchen before playing it. I'm sorry, but if I wanted a shallow toy, I'd go find an easybake oven.  I understand that this is my taste thought.  It's perfectly okay people play shallow games -- I'm not questioning that. I do question when we value shallow toys more than games that at least try to make an attempt of presenting a higher form of media. 

And I take offense when a company pushes shallow games as the flagship of the industry, explicitly limits the capabilities of next-gen games, ignores the true demands of their market, and considers my favorite hobby to be little more than a meaningless little toy. 

Citizen Kane =/ The Land Before Time

Graphics have always been assotiated with the evolution of games, but they are not the only factor. There are several types of games that rely on more powerful architecture(such complex AI, physics, number of enemies on screen, size of the world, etc...), which would be severely limited on the Wii. So graphics is just part of the universe of advancements of next-gen.

People should not consider manatory input formats a form of innovation, either. I don't see how we can consider input a form of console-driven innovation when the USB device exists. All consoles are guilty for not simply supporting a USB device, allowing developers to chose the form of input that best suits their games, and allowing consumers to pick between various forms of input.

We should move well beyond the days of mandatory input formats and exclusive games. These two ideas are really holding this industry back.

And I take offense when a company pushes shallow games as the flagship of the industry, explicitly limits the capabilities of next-gen games, ignores the true demands of their market, and considers my favorite hobby to be little more than a meaningless little toy.

FoamingPanda

How can you be certain that what you perceive as "shallow games" and "meaningless little toys" aren't what the market is truly demanding?

[QUOTE="HeedleGlavin"][QUOTE="molinex"]

[QUOTE="dracula_16"]The fact is...they bash what they can't have. It makes them feel better about not having a Wii. Of course they'll never admit to that but you need to read between the lines.shaggymcp

i could buy 10 Wii's but i wont

allready have one just a diferent name GAMECUBE!

i have the money just not the bad taste :lol:

Its simple, the Wii already has pulled a "gamecube" with its trash software, and kiddy titles + the addition of its gimmiky control setup, and crap graphics. The wii is already following suite of the Gamecube, with its lackluster game lineup, joke of a online plan ( friends codes :lol: ) And the only thing that is saving this machine is casual's period.

I have not met a person yet, including parents, friends, and family that can play the Wii for more than a half hour, before they become 100% bored. My brothers Nintendo Wii has been collecting dust since launch, we both got it the same time, but I sold mine, and he kept his because of his kids, and even they don't like it :lol:

Mario does not have the same meaning as it once did, neither does Link or Metroid. This coming from a person that grew up on Atari and NES as my first systems.

Wow. All people around in my neighborhood love my wii. my neighbors who were once hardcore pc gamers played wii sports for more than an hour or so. my parents play it always too. you have a very different environment there my friend. 

What Sheep fail to realize is Wii is targeted to a casual-non-gaming market, not just for the Sheep and few serious gamers out there. Sheep consistantly ride on the idea that more 3rd party support will come to Wii. But the question remains, What type of 3rd party games will jump on the Wii wagon?

There's NO POINT for traditional 3rd party devs to sophisticate thier games when they know damn well the Wii market is made primarily of casuals who demand or likened games that are casual friendly. In this scenerio, the Sheep and Serious Gamers are the minority. They bought the Wii for its 1st party line-up and the Casual-friendly games simply for them to have fun. But at the same time, with Wii flying off shelves, the Sheep and Serious Gamers are overwhelmed by the Casual Wii gamers. If Casual-Friendly games sell at such a geometric rate, there would be no incentive for traditional 3rd parties to push thier games further beyond the Wii's capabilities. Surely, 3rd parties and independent companies may be lining up right now, but don't expect an INFLUX of serious traditional 3rd party games overwhelming the Casual Wii market. Indeed, Nintendo was absolutely right this time in expanding the gaming market. And there's no doubt the Wii library will be flooded by a demand of Casual Wii friendly games.

Remember, 3rd party games NEVER sell too well on Nintendo's consoles since N64. This time, Casuals are the majority of the Wii market, how in the world can traditional 3rd parties expect to sell their games? 

This is something Sheep can't seem to understand. ;)

What Sheep fail to realize is Wii is targeted to a casual-non-gaming market, not just for the Sheep and few serious gamers out there. Sheep consistantly ride on the idea that more 3rd party support will come to Wii. But the question remains, What type of 3rd party games will jump on the Wii wagon?

There's NO POINT for traditional 3rd party devs to sophisticate thier games when they know damn well the Wii market is made primarily of casuals who demand or likened games that are casual friendly. In this scenerio, the Sheep and Serious Gamers are the minority. They bought the Wii for its 1st party line-up and the Casual-friendly games simply for them to have fun. But at the same time, with Wii flying off shelves, the Sheep and Serious Gamers are overwhelmed by the Casual Wii gamers. If Casual-Friendly games sell at such a geometric rate, there would be no incentive for traditional 3rd parties to push thier games further beyond the Wii's capabilities. Surely, 3rd parties and independent companies may be lining up right now, but don't expect an INFLUX of serious traditional 3rd party games overwhelming the Casual Wii market. Indeed, Nintendo was absolutely right this time in expanding the gaming market. And there's no doubt the Wii library will be flooded by a demand of Casual Wii friendly games.

This is something Sheep can't seem to understand. ;)

M8ingSeezun

[QUOTE="M8ingSeezun"]

What Sheep fail to realize is Wii is targeted to a casual-non-gaming market, not just for the Sheep and few serious gamers out there. Sheep consistantly ride on the idea that more 3rd party support will come to Wii. But the question remains, What type of 3rd party games will jump on the Wii wagon?

There's NO POINT for traditional 3rd party devs to sophisticate thier games when they know damn well the Wii market is made primarily of casuals who demand or likened games that are casual friendly. In this scenerio, the Sheep and Serious Gamers are the minority. They bought the Wii for its 1st party line-up and the Casual-friendly games simply for them to have fun. But at the same time, with Wii flying off shelves, the Sheep and Serious Gamers are overwhelmed by the Casual Wii gamers. If Casual-Friendly games sell at such a geometric rate, there would be no incentive for traditional 3rd parties to push thier games further beyond the Wii's capabilities. Surely, 3rd parties and independent companies may be lining up right now, but don't expect an INFLUX of serious traditional 3rd party games overwhelming the Casual Wii market. Indeed, Nintendo was absolutely right this time in expanding the gaming market. And there's no doubt the Wii library will be flooded by a demand of Casual Wii friendly games.

This is something Sheep can't seem to understand. ;)

Shinobishyguy

hypocrisy at its finest. The cows all the sudden hate casuals? For some reason they think that the 100 million ps2's sold were to hardcore gamers.PS3's fanbase is mostly hardcore right now. Thats Sony's true fanbase. 3 million. 

Because the Wii has a chance to destroy gaming for older more hardcore gamers. If the Wii has the majority of the fanbase and their fans are typically very young are very old casual gamers that don't care about violent games are graphically impressive games, then developers have no reason to spend millions making impressive games when they can just put out a quick made game to a large fanbase and still make enough profit off of it.

[QUOTE="M8ingSeezun"]

What Sheep fail to realize is Wii is targeted to a casual-non-gaming market, not just for the Sheep and few serious gamers out there. Sheep consistantly ride on the idea that more 3rd party support will come to Wii. But the question remains, What type of 3rd party games will jump on the Wii wagon?

There's NO POINT for traditional 3rd party devs to sophisticate thier games when they know damn well the Wii market is made primarily of casuals who demand or likened games that are casual friendly. In this scenerio, the Sheep and Serious Gamers are the minority. They bought the Wii for its 1st party line-up and the Casual-friendly games simply for them to have fun. But at the same time, with Wii flying off shelves, the Sheep and Serious Gamers are overwhelmed by the Casual Wii gamers. If Casual-Friendly games sell at such a geometric rate, there would be no incentive for traditional 3rd parties to push thier games further beyond the Wii's capabilities. Surely, 3rd parties and independent companies may be lining up right now, but don't expect an INFLUX of serious traditional 3rd party games overwhelming the Casual Wii market. Indeed, Nintendo was absolutely right this time in expanding the gaming market. And there's no doubt the Wii library will be flooded by a demand of Casual Wii friendly games.

This is something Sheep can't seem to understand. ;)

Shinobishyguy

I said it yesterday, I'll say it again. The PS1/PS2 are NOT casual systems. You think grandma Moses, Parents, teachers, UncleBob, Non-gamers bought the PS1 and PS2 to play MGS, DMC, Twisted Metal Black, MK Trilogy, Wipeout XL, etc???

The PS1 and PS2 were flooded by kids, teens and serious gamers. Guess what? Kids are the majority here.

In Wii's case, the non-gaming casuals are the majority.

other than the wii's own games made by nintendo..

i dont think i could get a good  gameing experience ..

[QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"][QUOTE="M8ingSeezun"]

What Sheep fail to realize is Wii is targeted to a casual-non-gaming market, not just for the Sheep and few serious gamers out there. Sheep consistantly ride on the idea that more 3rd party support will come to Wii. But the question remains, What type of 3rd party games will jump on the Wii wagon?

There's NO POINT for traditional 3rd party devs to sophisticate thier games when they know damn well the Wii market is made primarily of casuals who demand or likened games that are casual friendly. In this scenerio, the Sheep and Serious Gamers are the minority. They bought the Wii for its 1st party line-up and the Casual-friendly games simply for them to have fun. But at the same time, with Wii flying off shelves, the Sheep and Serious Gamers are overwhelmed by the Casual Wii gamers. If Casual-Friendly games sell at such a geometric rate, there would be no incentive for traditional 3rd parties to push thier games further beyond the Wii's capabilities. Surely, 3rd parties and independent companies may be lining up right now, but don't expect an INFLUX of serious traditional 3rd party games overwhelming the Casual Wii market. Indeed, Nintendo was absolutely right this time in expanding the gaming market. And there's no doubt the Wii library will be flooded by a demand of Casual Wii friendly games.

This is something Sheep can't seem to understand. ;)

M8ingSeezun

I said it yesterday, I'll say it again. The PS1/PS2 are NOT casual systems. You think grandma Moses, Parents, teachers, UncleBob, Non-gamers bought the PS1 and PS2 to play MGS, DMC, Twisted Metal Black, MK Trilogy, Wipeout XL, etc???

The PS1 and PS2 were flooded by kids, teens and serious gamers. Guess what? Kids are the majority here.

In Wii's case, the non-gaming casuals are the majority.

link? 

[QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"][QUOTE="M8ingSeezun"]

What Sheep fail to realize is Wii is targeted to a casual-non-gaming market, not just for the Sheep and few serious gamers out there. Sheep consistantly ride on the idea that more 3rd party support will come to Wii. But the question remains, What type of 3rd party games will jump on the Wii wagon?

There's NO POINT for traditional 3rd party devs to sophisticate thier games when they know damn well the Wii market is made primarily of casuals who demand or likened games that are casual friendly. In this scenerio, the Sheep and Serious Gamers are the minority. They bought the Wii for its 1st party line-up and the Casual-friendly games simply for them to have fun. But at the same time, with Wii flying off shelves, the Sheep and Serious Gamers are overwhelmed by the Casual Wii gamers. If Casual-Friendly games sell at such a geometric rate, there would be no incentive for traditional 3rd parties to push thier games further beyond the Wii's capabilities. Surely, 3rd parties and independent companies may be lining up right now, but don't expect an INFLUX of serious traditional 3rd party games overwhelming the Casual Wii market. Indeed, Nintendo was absolutely right this time in expanding the gaming market. And there's no doubt the Wii library will be flooded by a demand of Casual Wii friendly games.

This is something Sheep can't seem to understand. ;)

M8ingSeezun

I said it yesterday, I'll say it again. The PS1/PS2 are NOT casual systems. You think grandma Moses, Parents, teachers, UncleBob, Non-gamers bought the PS1 and PS2 to play MGS, DMC, Twisted Metal Black, MK Trilogy, Wipeout XL, etc???

The PS1 and PS2 were flooded by kids, teens and serious gamers. Guess what? Kids are the majority here.

In Wii's case, the non-gaming casuals are the majority.

[QUOTE="M8ingSeezun"][QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"][QUOTE="M8ingSeezun"]

What Sheep fail to realize is Wii is targeted to a casual-non-gaming market, not just for the Sheep and few serious gamers out there. Sheep consistantly ride on the idea that more 3rd party support will come to Wii. But the question remains, What type of 3rd party games will jump on the Wii wagon?

There's NO POINT for traditional 3rd party devs to sophisticate thier games when they know damn well the Wii market is made primarily of casuals who demand or likened games that are casual friendly. In this scenerio, the Sheep and Serious Gamers are the minority. They bought the Wii for its 1st party line-up and the Casual-friendly games simply for them to have fun. But at the same time, with Wii flying off shelves, the Sheep and Serious Gamers are overwhelmed by the Casual Wii gamers. If Casual-Friendly games sell at such a geometric rate, there would be no incentive for traditional 3rd parties to push thier games further beyond the Wii's capabilities. Surely, 3rd parties and independent companies may be lining up right now, but don't expect an INFLUX of serious traditional 3rd party games overwhelming the Casual Wii market. Indeed, Nintendo was absolutely right this time in expanding the gaming market. And there's no doubt the Wii library will be flooded by a demand of Casual Wii friendly games.

This is something Sheep can't seem to understand. ;)

Japanese_Monk

I said it yesterday, I'll say it again. The PS1/PS2 are NOT casual systems. You think grandma Moses, Parents, teachers, UncleBob, Non-gamers bought the PS1 and PS2 to play MGS, DMC, Twisted Metal Black, MK Trilogy, Wipeout XL, etc???

The PS1 and PS2 were flooded by kids, teens and serious gamers. Guess what? Kids are the majority here.

In Wii's case, the non-gaming casuals are the majority.

link?

Asking for a Link? There's NO need, it's simple LOGIC and to the point. Something most blind Sheep seem to forget!

DID MOMMY/DADDY, UNCLE JOE, BOB THE PLUMBER, GRANDMA MOSES, HILLBILLY JIM THE FARMER, BOUGHT THE PS1 AND PS2 TO PLAY THIER GAMES? YOU SHEEP are saying the PS1 and PS2 are "casual" systems, right?

Prove it. Prove the "Casualness" of PS consoles compared to the Casualness of the Wii market.

[QUOTE="Japanese_Monk"][QUOTE="M8ingSeezun"][QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"][QUOTE="M8ingSeezun"]

What Sheep fail to realize is Wii is targeted to a casual-non-gaming market, not just for the Sheep and few serious gamers out there. Sheep consistantly ride on the idea that more 3rd party support will come to Wii. But the question remains, What type of 3rd party games will jump on the Wii wagon?

There's NO POINT for traditional 3rd party devs to sophisticate thier games when they know damn well the Wii market is made primarily of casuals who demand or likened games that are casual friendly. In this scenerio, the Sheep and Serious Gamers are the minority. They bought the Wii for its 1st party line-up and the Casual-friendly games simply for them to have fun. But at the same time, with Wii flying off shelves, the Sheep and Serious Gamers are overwhelmed by the Casual Wii gamers. If Casual-Friendly games sell at such a geometric rate, there would be no incentive for traditional 3rd parties to push thier games further beyond the Wii's capabilities. Surely, 3rd parties and independent companies may be lining up right now, but don't expect an INFLUX of serious traditional 3rd party games overwhelming the Casual Wii market. Indeed, Nintendo was absolutely right this time in expanding the gaming market. And there's no doubt the Wii library will be flooded by a demand of Casual Wii friendly games.

This is something Sheep can't seem to understand. ;)

M8ingSeezun

I said it yesterday, I'll say it again. The PS1/PS2 are NOT casual systems. You think grandma Moses, Parents, teachers, UncleBob, Non-gamers bought the PS1 and PS2 to play MGS, DMC, Twisted Metal Black, MK Trilogy, Wipeout XL, etc???

The PS1 and PS2 were flooded by kids, teens and serious gamers. Guess what? Kids are the majority here.

In Wii's case, the non-gaming casuals are the majority.

link?

Asking for a Link? There's NO need, it's simple LOGIC and to the point. Something most blind Sheep seem to forget!

DID MOMMY/DADDY, UNCLE JOE, BOB THE PLUMBER, GRANDMA MOSES, HILLBILLY JIM THE FARMER, BOUGHT THE PS1 AND PS2 TO PLAY THIER GAMES? YOU SHEEP are saying the PS1 and PS2 are "casual" systems, right?

Prove it. Prove the "Casualness" of PS consoles compared to the Casualness of the Wii market.

[QUOTE="M8ingSeezun"][QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"][QUOTE="M8ingSeezun"]

What Sheep fail to realize is Wii is targeted to a casual-non-gaming market, not just for the Sheep and few serious gamers out there. Sheep consistantly ride on the idea that more 3rd party support will come to Wii. But the question remains, What type of 3rd party games will jump on the Wii wagon?

There's NO POINT for traditional 3rd party devs to sophisticate thier games when they know damn well the Wii market is made primarily of casuals who demand or likened games that are casual friendly. In this scenerio, the Sheep and Serious Gamers are the minority. They bought the Wii for its 1st party line-up and the Casual-friendly games simply for them to have fun. But at the same time, with Wii flying off shelves, the Sheep and Serious Gamers are overwhelmed by the Casual Wii gamers. If Casual-Friendly games sell at such a geometric rate, there would be no incentive for traditional 3rd parties to push thier games further beyond the Wii's capabilities. Surely, 3rd parties and independent companies may be lining up right now, but don't expect an INFLUX of serious traditional 3rd party games overwhelming the Casual Wii market. Indeed, Nintendo was absolutely right this time in expanding the gaming market. And there's no doubt the Wii library will be flooded by a demand of Casual Wii friendly games.

This is something Sheep can't seem to understand. ;)

Shinobishyguy

I said it yesterday, I'll say it again. The PS1/PS2 are NOT casual systems. You think grandma Moses, Parents, teachers, UncleBob, Non-gamers bought the PS1 and PS2 to play MGS, DMC, Twisted Metal Black, MK Trilogy, Wipeout XL, etc???

The PS1 and PS2 were flooded by kids, teens and serious gamers. Guess what? Kids are the majority here.

In Wii's case, the non-gaming casuals are the majority.

The Question is:   How do you define Casuals? Who makes them up?  

To me CASUALS are those who completely know NOTHING about gaming, that includes the people I mentioned above. 

[QUOTE="M8ingSeezun"][QUOTE="Japanese_Monk"][QUOTE="M8ingSeezun"][QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"][QUOTE="M8ingSeezun"]

What Sheep fail to realize is Wii is targeted to a casual-non-gaming market, not just for the Sheep and few serious gamers out there. Sheep consistantly ride on the idea that more 3rd party support will come to Wii. But the question remains, What type of 3rd party games will jump on the Wii wagon?

There's NO POINT for traditional 3rd party devs to sophisticate thier games when they know damn well the Wii market is made primarily of casuals who demand or likened games that are casual friendly. In this scenerio, the Sheep and Serious Gamers are the minority. They bought the Wii for its 1st party line-up and the Casual-friendly games simply for them to have fun. But at the same time, with Wii flying off shelves, the Sheep and Serious Gamers are overwhelmed by the Casual Wii gamers. If Casual-Friendly games sell at such a geometric rate, there would be no incentive for traditional 3rd parties to push thier games further beyond the Wii's capabilities. Surely, 3rd parties and independent companies may be lining up right now, but don't expect an INFLUX of serious traditional 3rd party games overwhelming the Casual Wii market. Indeed, Nintendo was absolutely right this time in expanding the gaming market. And there's no doubt the Wii library will be flooded by a demand of Casual Wii friendly games.

This is something Sheep can't seem to understand. ;)

ShakeNBake1491

I said it yesterday, I'll say it again. The PS1/PS2 are NOT casual systems. You think grandma Moses, Parents, teachers, UncleBob, Non-gamers bought the PS1 and PS2 to play MGS, DMC, Twisted Metal Black, MK Trilogy, Wipeout XL, etc???

The PS1 and PS2 were flooded by kids, teens and serious gamers. Guess what? Kids are the majority here.

In Wii's case, the non-gaming casuals are the majority.

link?

Asking for a Link? There's NO need, it's simple LOGIC and to the point. Something most blind Sheep seem to forget!

DID MOMMY/DADDY, UNCLE JOE, BOB THE PLUMBER, GRANDMA MOSES, HILLBILLY JIM THE FARMER, BOUGHT THE PS1 AND PS2 TO PLAY THIER GAMES? YOU SHEEP are saying the PS1 and PS2 are "casual" systems, right?

Prove it. Prove the "Casualness" of PS consoles compared to the Casualness of the Wii market.

Sorry you failed ;)

Did a majority of granmas and parents and uncle Bobs, Wall Street Secretaries play GTA? 

NO ;)