Durante "2014: the first year of the CRPG renaissance"

It is 5 days old, but I didnt see anyone post a thread about it so,

http://www.pcgamer.com/2014-the-first-year-of-the-crpg-renaissance/

I must say, I agree with what he has to say. After having nearly a decade of lackluster cRPGs, such as Mass Effect, Dragon Age 2, Oblivion, Fallout 3, unmodded Skyrim and Risen 2. It is nice to have seen a lot of quality come out this year, be it the extremely well told Shadowrun: Dragonfall, the tactically rewarding and mechanically diverse Blackguards, the challenging but non-grindy Lords of Xulima or the excellently executed Divinity: Original Sin. There was plenty of games for a cRPG fan to enjoy.

While I do not think that Might and Magic X is the best RPG to come out this year, I can easily see where he is coming from, and along with Child of Light, the reason I forgive Ubisoft for the technical blunders they were responsible for this year. Divinity: Original Sin was my rpgoty, but several titles came really close, lords of xulima was a really close second place.

While I do not think that what came out this year in the cRPG genre is as good as the masterpieces of the late 80s and early 90s. This has easily been an excellent year for cRPGs nontheless, and the future looks bright as well with several promising titles releasing in 2015 and beyond. Among of which include Underrail, Serpent in the Staglands, Age of Decadence, The Banner Saga 2, Witcher 3, Pillars of Eternity, Torment: Tides of Numenera (Numenera's ruleset sucks really bad, but the lore is so cool) and Mount&Blade: Bannerlord.

Do you guys see this as the return of the cRPG genre as well, are there any other genres that have entered a form of renaissance now, thanks to crowdfunding?

Agreed. Great year for cRPG fans and best is yet to come. Can't wait for Larian's two new RPGs. With more resources, they can make the games even better.

Agreed. Great year for cRPG fans and best is yet to come. Can't wait for Larian's two new RPGs. With more resources, they can make the games even better.

Child of Light is unimpressive though.

But yeah Divinity was beast. Hopefully Age of Decadence actually comes out next year. If we can get that, Torment, and Pillars of Eternity next year that would be pretty beast.

Really hyped for those 2 games, but since we dont know enough about them, I didnt feel like adding them. Cannot wait to find out more about them.

Eh, I liked it. Not great, but I thought it was pretty decent for its asking price.

Sorry, what's the "c" stands for?

@EZs: Computer.

cRPG.... ?

Thought that term was outdated.

Thank you.

CRPG's are wonderful. Very much looking forward to Pillars Of Eternity: huge fan of Icewind Dale. Along with Darksouls - these two series are the best dungeon crawlers imo.

More like they just haven't been making them the last decade or so, for the most part. (before this recent resurgence)

hopefully Underrail and Age of Decadence get finished this year.

Icewind dale is an excellent dungeon crawler.

However, nothing touches Wizardry in this aspect. The dungeon design in Wizardry 4 in particular has some of the most devious and clever dungeon design I have ever seen.

Heh, was mapping out dungeons in Wiz 5 last night. Have you played Chaos Strikes Back Maroxad ? I heard that game had some really good dungeon design.

Not yet.

@bussinrounds:

They been making them rigorously ever since they were invented.

@Maroxad: Personally, I don't get all the kerfuffle. I really don't think Canadians should get their own subgenre of Role Playing Games, that's for hosers...unless you are talking about Canadian Ranger Patrol Groups because those dudes are Badass, eh? That's my twoonie take on this article's title.

*finishes eating Poutine & Back-bacon*

Dark Souls and Skyrim being the most popular made it look like these Action-RPG type games were all we would be seeing in the future but there's been quite a few "c"RPGs I've enjoyed the last decade or so of years.

Aarklash, Farewell To Dragons, Planet Alcatraz, Realms of Ancient War, Sacred(s) -well 1 & 2, Titan Quest, Torchlight(s), Loki, Original Sin, etc.. I enjoyed them all. Waiting impatiently for Umbra, Pillars of Light, and a few others.

Granted it has seemed few and far between. Just had to look up Xulima, never even saw an add or article about release in any of the game magazines or sites. Will be ordering tomorrow.

Something about Skyrim just didn't feel as great as Oblivion, same way Oblivion just didn't feel as great as Morrowind. They were definitely fun and i put hundreds of hours into all the Elder Scrolls i've played. Maybe it's just me but i got the same feeling with Dark Souls 2 compared to the first. Just not as special for some reason.

I...I just can't anymore.

Half the shit you listed here isn't even CRPG's.

It was hilarious that people were bitching at him because he didn't include Inquisition. I still need to try out M&MXLegacy, but I did manage to get through Grimrock 2, Divinity OS, Shadowrun Dragonfall, and Wasteland 2.

Of them,

Dragonfall has the best main plot (shits all over Inquisition)

Divinity OS has the best combat (imo best turn based RPG combat ever)

Wasteland 2 had the best side quests even if it did take until California to really get interesting

And Grimrock 2 was my favorite.

like what?

the OP you are commenting on is listing console action games but PC only isometrics aren't? so, you've made up your own rules for the genre?

--

just watched some video of Lords of Xulima. the screenshots looked pretty good but the gameplay looks pretty weak, especially the combat. that is one cheesy looking game.

@elessarGObonzo: @Maroxad:

I think writing cRPG next to games like Mass Effect, DA 2 was a mistake. Pretty sure TC wanted to say RPG or Action RPG.

Agreed. Looking back at the entire year I'm amazed at how it seemed to be generally lacking on all fronts, while instead the RPG genre single handedly outshined years of last gen's publishing history, in fact I'd go as far as saying that 2014 alone would be on par with the entirety of last gen's RPGs if not for Obsidian's work (whose MotB I still believe to be the best RPG of said period).

I guess this shows how much sites who gave "best RPG" awards to DAI actually know about the gaming scene. Other than that, can't say I'm whining.

Now we await Pillars and Torment

@N30F3N1X: would much rather have seen Wasteland 2 or Original Sin take the prize. They deserved it so much more and so many of the more "casual" gamers would have picked them up just to ride the "best of" wave. Which would have helped boost the genre and the developer's interest. I did have a few friends I convinced to get Original Sin complain that it was too hard (but did warn them it took some intelligence to get very far).

No one seems to be able to agree on what an RPG is. So I dont see the point in bothering anymore with trying to define it. As far as I am concerned, this

Is an RPG.

Yup, for all the doom and gloom in general. At least there was some light. We got RPGs that actually embraced the strengths of the genre, rather than attempting to be something they are not.

I also agree on Mask of the Betrayer being the best RPG of last gen. Regarding DA:I, I would be bashing that game if I wanted to. But someone on this board, clearly can not handle negativity towards DA:I, to the point where he hurls out namecalling like a child in a tantrum.

I was simply referring to RPGs on computers, be they Personal Computers (PCs) or otherwise (consoles/handhelds). Provided that they do not strictly fit into the JRPG category.

I actually enjoyed JRPGs a whole lot more than cRPGs the 7th gen. Be it Shin Megami Tensei, Labyrinth of Touhou, Elminage, Growlanser, Ys, Pokemon, Rune Factory 3/4, Etrian Odyssey, Purse Owner, SRPGs, Rance, Mario and Luigi Bowsers Inside Story, and I still havent played Nier for some reason.

Wasteland 2 was disappointing. multiple ways to heal yourself - multiple ways to breach a wall - multiple ways to level a chat style - but incredibly simplstic combat. Actually: even more simplstic than Dragon Age - and that's saying something. And most of the game is taken up by combat: it's not like Planescape Torement which is mostly dialogue.

It wouldn't be so bad if (like Fallout) you where predominantly alone, but: when you are running around with 4-5 party members: personally, I want some depth and synergy (i.e. Icewind Dale or Divinity: Original Sin). The combat was just shit. Rather than making a classic CRPG - they looked at a modern console focused strategy game, Xcom: EU. In that regard (like Dragon Age) they bent the game to appeal to modern ideals.

Young people.

Because DAI enraptured the critics the most. This is what having good characters does.

Hell, I think DAI is very much one of Bioware's lesser games, but while there is a CRPG renaissance coming, the games like Divinity, Grimrock 2, Wasteland 2, and the Banner saga were just too flawed. And Dark Souls II came out too early.

Perhaps this was the case because it was not a combat focused RPG.

The strengths in the game lied in the questing, the combat was the weakest link.

kind of off topic but

i am actually enjoying Inquisition quite a bit but i wouldn't claim it's one of the best "cRPGs" or even game of this year in any category. the characters is one of it's biggest flaws in my opinion. seems they started out with some good ideas and some of them turned out to be pretty good but most of them make the stupidest comments and jokes during conversation and just regular banter. they have their own side quest lines but they don't need to be there and don't contribute if they are, all you get is a little more banter from them if they are included in the party. and every character you interact with does not need the opportunity to be gay every time you have same sex conversation. -they should add sexually transmitted diseases to the game with the gay options having a much higher percentage of contamination.

Hardly offtopic at all, some people were upset by the lack of mention of DA:I of the games he mentioned. Others rejoiced and cherished his choice.

That said, I do not think that DA:I belongs in the renaissance of the cRPG genre, not only because I see it as a poor game (heck, even some critics are starting to get rather critical towards it now), but also because it quite frankly embraces a lot of what was wrong with RPGs in the past decade.

I assume both the AAA way of doing things (DA:I, ME, TESV ect) will continue, and the revived old school way will continue to, independantly going seperate paths. Who knows, maybe we will see another sub genre split again. Just like we saw with cRPGs and jRPGs.

As for homosexuality, I would rather see the complete removal of romances overall. Be it gay or straight. You dont need LGBT romance options to play as a gay character. I roleplayed a homosexual quite extensively in a tabletop game back then, and he never had a lover or even a romantic or sexual encounter. Of course, homosexuality was never a defining trait for that guy, something that BioWare seems to make with SOME of their characters.

@Maroxad: we can hope. the more ways of doing it the more chances we get for great games. just sucks when it ruins or tarnishes a great franchise with some fluff garbage.

@uninspiredcup said:

@texasgoldrush said:

@N30F3N1X said:

Agreed. Looking back at the entire year I'm amazed at how it seemed to be generally lacking on all fronts, while instead the RPG genre single handedly outshined years of last gen's publishing history, in fact I'd go as far as saying that 2014 alone would be on par with the entirety of last gen's RPGs if not for Obsidian's work (whose MotB I still believe to be the best RPG of said period).

I guess this shows how much sites who gave "best RPG" awards to DAI actually know about the gaming scene. Other than that, can't say I'm whining.

Because DAI enraptured the critics the most. This is what having good characters does.

Most GOTY awards this year.

http://gotypicks.blogspot.com/

And I am not even big fan of DAI, its a step backwards for Bioware overall.

The cast is good, the problem here is Bioware didn't know what to do with half of them, its DAO all over again. They are divorced from the plot. In fact, in many ways DA2 is better, and DA2 also had the better overall plot and character cast.

However, nothing gay is forced upon you in DAI, that is simply BS. While Dorian has his homosexuality as part of his story, he does not force or even flirt with the male player and I wouldn't even know that Sera was a lesbian option if I didn't know about it before the game was released. Just more stupid homophobia.

@texasgoldrush said:

@uninspiredcup said:

@texasgoldrush said:

@N30F3N1X said:

Agreed. Looking back at the entire year I'm amazed at how it seemed to be generally lacking on all fronts, while instead the RPG genre single handedly outshined years of last gen's publishing history, in fact I'd go as far as saying that 2014 alone would be on par with the entirety of last gen's RPGs if not for Obsidian's work (whose MotB I still believe to be the best RPG of said period).

I guess this shows how much sites who gave "best RPG" awards to DAI actually know about the gaming scene. Other than that, can't say I'm whining.

Because DAI enraptured the critics the most. This is what having good characters does.

Most GOTY awards this year.

http://gotypicks.blogspot.com/

And I am not even big fan of DAI, its a step backwards for Bioware overall.

Gladly PC has both.

@texasgoldrush said:

@uninspiredcup said:

@texasgoldrush said:

@N30F3N1X said:

Agreed. Looking back at the entire year I'm amazed at how it seemed to be generally lacking on all fronts, while instead the RPG genre single handedly outshined years of last gen's publishing history, in fact I'd go as far as saying that 2014 alone would be on par with the entirety of last gen's RPGs if not for Obsidian's work (whose MotB I still believe to be the best RPG of said period).

I guess this shows how much sites who gave "best RPG" awards to DAI actually know about the gaming scene. Other than that, can't say I'm whining.

Because DAI enraptured the critics the most. This is what having good characters does.

Most GOTY awards this year.

http://gotypicks.blogspot.com/

And I am not even big fan of DAI, its a step backwards for Bioware overall.

The "I'm not a Bioware fanboy", "I'm not even a big fan of this game", didn't even work the first time: let alone numerous times used to defend every Bioware title in every single thread.

Using paper awards: from a industry that actively shuns pc gaming: who's primary job is to advertizement: only serves to make me (me) increasingly correct: in my correctness.

Terrible.

@Jankarcop said:

@texasgoldrush said:

@uninspiredcup said:

@texasgoldrush said:

@N30F3N1X said:

Agreed. Looking back at the entire year I'm amazed at how it seemed to be generally lacking on all fronts, while instead the RPG genre single handedly outshined years of last gen's publishing history, in fact I'd go as far as saying that 2014 alone would be on par with the entirety of last gen's RPGs if not for Obsidian's work (whose MotB I still believe to be the best RPG of said period).

I guess this shows how much sites who gave "best RPG" awards to DAI actually know about the gaming scene. Other than that, can't say I'm whining.

Because DAI enraptured the critics the most. This is what having good characters does.

Most GOTY awards this year.

http://gotypicks.blogspot.com/

And I am not even big fan of DAI, its a step backwards for Bioware overall.

Gladly PC has both.

A prime example of diet coke pc gamers. Caring not if a pc franchise has transitioned to consoles. Nor if a once pc game is a console port. Nor is a game is even good. Only the opperunity to chocolate gangster talk console gamers: even though yourself amount to one.

True breed pc gamers: "with this Ferrero Rocher you are spoiling us" are becoming a dying breed. The bloodlines are being mixed and we simply are left with... mongrels.

@uninspiredcup said:

@texasgoldrush said:

@uninspiredcup said:

@texasgoldrush said:

@N30F3N1X said:

Agreed. Looking back at the entire year I'm amazed at how it seemed to be generally lacking on all fronts, while instead the RPG genre single handedly outshined years of last gen's publishing history, in fact I'd go as far as saying that 2014 alone would be on par with the entirety of last gen's RPGs if not for Obsidian's work (whose MotB I still believe to be the best RPG of said period).

I guess this shows how much sites who gave "best RPG" awards to DAI actually know about the gaming scene. Other than that, can't say I'm whining.

Because DAI enraptured the critics the most. This is what having good characters does.

Most GOTY awards this year.

http://gotypicks.blogspot.com/

And I am not even big fan of DAI, its a step backwards for Bioware overall.

The "I'm not a Bioware fanboy", "I'm not even a big fan of this game", didn't even work the first time: let alone numerous times used to defend every Bioware title in every single thread.

Using paper awards: from a industry that actively shuns pc gaming: who's primary job is to advertizement: only serves to make me (me) increasingly correct: in my correctness.

Terrible.

This is what the Larian studio head said about your precious Divinity.

“In one paragraph and unsurprisingly, my biggest issues with the game are the same things most people had issues with. I think the main story can be told a lot better and has more potential than is apparent, that combat falls a bit flat after act 1 and that crafting, inventory & trade UIs could use a bunch of improvements. Certain dialogs should be done better, there’s still a lot of feedback missing from tooltips & skills, and at higher levels character progression isn’t as cool as it should be. Our loot system doesn’t behave as hoped for, and the companions could use some work.”

Maybe that's why it isn't GOTY. And right now I am playing through it again with the other two party members. Its simply a flawed game with a good combat system.

Oh, and Sera is far from terrible. She is much wiser than she looks.

@texasgoldrush:

That's the symbol of hardworking developers. Who take it like a man and want to improve even further. Hardly a bad thing.

A very point. A superior developer: with a superior game.

Bioware do not have this level of maturity: very pretencous attitude for what is a highly flawed and mediocre hack and slash diablo console with characters bordering on Hideo Kojima level of badness.

Attempting to boast about an inherently console centric industry is very poor taste and shows desperation for some form of vindication.

But that doesn't mean it wasn't flawed. An improved Divinity would be great, but that doesn't mean at release it didn't fall short of true greatness.

And yet Bioware also improves their games. Mass Effect 3 got an improved and expanded ending, did it not?

And yet face facts, DAI won the most GOTY awards, hell, its not even my choice to win (which would be This War Of Mine). Its a down year and your precious Divinity simply put isn't good enough.

So they recognize the flaws their games had? Wow, the insolence of those devs.

They should've done like BioWare who took the criticism of DAO, spat in the face of fans that loved it by killing everything good that DAO did and stood for by turning DA2 into an incredibly boring, linear and repetitive action game where you press a button and something cool happens, or like they did in ME3 by destroying the concept of choices and consequences they explored in the first two games in favor of the brilliant "galactic readiness" meter that required you to do MP (which noone but the devs themselves gave a shit about) to have complete access to SP content.

Now that's how you show people what a GotY is.

Wow, you are daft.

And did they not fix the galactic readiness in ME3 so players do not have to play MP to see the 2 second "breath" scene? Oh and news flash MP in ME3 was actually well liked. In fact, they fixed many things in ME3 with the extended cut and they listened to fans for the Citadel DLC. Nevermind that galactic readiness did affect the outcome of the endgame and ending even before the fixes such has having low EMS results in deaths of some or all your characters.

They fixed mistakes as well. Facts are facts. You act like they don't. The problem here is that Divinity backers want to say that their game is a classic. Its not, its too flawed. Larian has been more real than the fans here.

My friend: these numerous coercion attempts at trying to convince me (me) of not you (you), not having any investment are falling of deaf ears. It's laughable. I'm laughing. With my mouth.

A fact was given: console centric paper awards: with media favoring mainstream audiences: you chose to ignore it. The sure sign of a fanatical fanboy. Posting habits prove this.

Sadly: I am right. Again.

And...?

What the critics say does not necessarily mean the best. Actual RPG fans, particulary those of an old school flavor, tend to greatly prefer Divinity.

Not to mention, journalists man... lets not even get started into how well it is going for those guys

That is called, being willing to see your own mistakes, it takes some degree of honesty to do that. It is the overall experience that matters, games dont start from 10 and go down from there. The quest design, itemization, combat, encounter design and pacing are all far superior to DA:I's mmorpg-esque quests, stackdamage itemization, mmorpg combat where you can kill the final boss using only 2 commands, copy paste encounter design where there is no mechanical variety, and forcing players to do fed ex quests to continue the story.

While it may not have gotten many GOTY awards. D:OS did get PCGOTY here AND Durante placed it on his list. Something he didn't do for the DA:I. And when asked why, he simply said, it is not a very good RPG.

It is the overall experience that counts, and the overall experience is good enough so that the flaws dont detract all too much from it. Mount&Blade: Warband was one of my favorite PC games of last gen, yet that game has even more flaws than Divinity: Original Sin. The only significant flaws you listed are the combat not being as great as it is post act 1 and the high level character progression being rather meh.

But lets not overlook DA:I's flaws here, while D:OS's flaws remained for most of the part outside the game's core. DA:I was flawed in the core, with its lifeless world, broken combat mechanics and David Gaider-tier writing.

That's 1 I'm actually interested in

No, the original ending meant much more. To rewrite it just to satisfy some kids who couldn't grasp the concept was a terrible idea. Just played through again with all the DLC content and the new ending(s) just made me laugh.

However, nothing gay is forced upon you in DAI, that is simply BS. While Dorian has his homosexuality as part of his story, he does not force or even flirt with the male player and I wouldn't even know that Sera was a lesbian option if I didn't know about it before the game was released. Just more stupid homophobia.

i would understand if you were given the option as part of character creation to be homosexual or maybe a couple times in the game be hit on by the same sex but every conversation does not need the homo dialog option. i don't care if it's not "forced" as you call it.

i wouldn't enjoy being around a bunch of mentally retarded people same as i don't want to be around a bunch of gay people. homophobia or whatever you call it.

@Maroxad said:

@texasgoldrush said:

Most GOTY awards this year.

http://gotypicks.blogspot.com/

And I am not even big fan of DAI, its a step backwards for Bioware overall.

And...?

What the critics say does not necessarily mean the best. Actual RPG fans, particulary those of an old school flavor, tend to greatly prefer Divinity.

Not to mention, journalists man... lets not even get started into how well it is going for those guys

@texasgoldrush said:

“In one paragraph and unsurprisingly, my biggest issues with the game are the same things most people had issues with. I think the main story can be told a lot better and has more potential than is apparent, that combat falls a bit flat after act 1 and that crafting, inventory & trade UIs could use a bunch of improvements. Certain dialogs should be done better, there’s still a lot of feedback missing from tooltips & skills, and at higher levels character progression isn’t as cool as it should be. Our loot system doesn’t behave as hoped for, and the companions could use some work.”

That is called, being willing to see your own mistakes, it takes some degree of honesty to do that. It is the overall experience that matters, games dont start from 10 and go down from there. The quest design, itemization, combat, encounter design and pacing are all far superior to DA:I's mmorpg-esque quests, stackdamage itemization, mmorpg combat where you can kill the final boss using only 2 commands, copy paste encounter design where there is no mechanical variety, and forcing players to do fed ex quests to continue the story.

While it may not have gotten many GOTY awards. D:OS did get PCGOTY here AND Durante placed it on his list. Something he didn't do for the DA:I. And when asked why, he simply said, it is not a very good RPG.

It is the overall experience that counts, and the overall experience is good enough so that the flaws dont detract all too much from it. Mount&Blade: Warband was one of my favorite PC games of last gen, yet that game has even more flaws than Divinity: Original Sin. The only significant flaws you listed are the combat not being as great as it is post act 1 and the high level character progression being rather meh.

But lets not overlook DA:I's flaws here, while D:OS's flaws remained for most of the part outside the game's core. DA:I was flawed in the core, with its lifeless world, broken combat mechanics and David Gaider-tier writing.

Please, you continue to overrate Divinity. First, the quest design is nothing to write home about, in fact, its pretty poor. It is also a bunch of find this thing or this guy for this guy. Only a few quests are memorable. this is bad for a CRPG. second, DAI has very few FedEx quests outside the requisitions, which are far from required. The simple fact is that you do not need to do them to continue the story. Most quests in DAI are actually serviceable to good. The problem with DAI is that this exploration and questing are nearly separate from the main plot and many zones have no main story relevance whatsoever. That's the problem. However, DAI's strength in its exploration design is that each zone has a different feel and a different mechanic that makes it unique from other zones. Divinity not so much outside annoying status affects in certain environments.

And at least DAI's final boss doesn't end your game BEFORE YOU EVEN MAKE A MOVE. And at least you can't knockdown and stunlock the final boss to victory if somehow the escort survives. The last boss in DAI was far from great, but DOS's final boss is an atrocity.

DAI lifeless world? Look at Divinity. At least in DAI your quests impact the world around you and change the map. Take Crestwood for example, the entire map has a couple big changes when you do its major quest. You do not see that in Divinity. And Divinity at its core IS flawed. its a bad RPG when it comes to affecting the world, it has flaws mechanically in its RPG systems, it is flawed with its encounter design and leveling system.

And DAI, with its very weak plot, manages to be a much better written game than Divinity.

And really, who cares about what a small group of people, your people think? Face facts here, your game here has won just as many GOTY awards as my favorite game this year (This War of Mine), not very many. Instead of appealing to a vocal minority you think highly of, why don't you accept reality?