Hand-Holding: Good for 20 minutes, Then Ruins the Game

Hand-holding: popularized by early console games of this gen whereby the developers make huge ARROWS and LINES pointing exactly where you need to go and what you need to do.

This is *kinda* handy for about 20 minutes, after which you learn the game mechanics / structure, and then the hand-holding persists and basically ruins the game with its intrusive "you aren't smart enough" mechanics.

Example: console version of Deus Ex, you get HUGE lines around interactible objects, which would be nice ... for 20 minutes... then it kills the game immersion.

[PC version can disable this 'feature']

Witcher 2 is a modern example of a game that forces you to use your brain - no big arrows, Fable 3 sparklies, etc.; listen to NPCs, process information, go from there.

In my mind that is what separates the consoles from the PC, the amount of hand-holding in the game. Fortunately developers have received the message from the PC gaming community - ala Deus Ex highlighting - BF3 prone - etc. and have started to reverse the trend to pre-consolified gaming where it was up to the gamer to pay attention and process data.

Would you rather stick with modern console inspired hand-holding, or return to pre-'00 "its up to you" gaming?

Personally I prefer Witcher 2 style gaming, where you immerse and have to think your way through, instead of the auto-pilot method of some current games.

PC IS SUPERIOR RAHH.

How many times is this gonna be implied before you realize that no-one cares enough to get rid of consoles?

I agree, I was so accustom to handholding I almost blew a gasket for certain parts of the witcher 2. Then I decided to take my time and look around/think it through.. and it was pretty awesome.

but what happens if someone plays the game that isnt as great as you. are they just not allowed or should dev include an option for them to make thing easier such as the OPTIONAL bread crumb trail in fable 2

I agree, I was so accustom to handholding I almost blew a gasket for certain parts of the witcher 2. Then I decided to take my time and look around/think it through.. and it was pretty awesome.

GD1551

Exactly the reason I posted this. Playing Witcher 2 was like "holy crap" 30 minutes later -> "this is awesome." -> 2 hours later "fricken consoles"

LOL

PC IS SUPERIOR RAHH.

How many times is this gonna be implied before you realize that no-one cares enough to get rid of consoles?

TrapJak

But if you get rid of your consoles there is nothing to SW over ... so please, stick with the consoles (if that is your desire).

Fable 3 is a perfect example: if you lose your way in that game something is seriously wrong. You literally can't fail.

Gonna use a PC example cos you'll probably mock any console example...

In Baldur's Gate 1, I had to "pixel hunt" by dragging my pointer all over the screen to see what I could interact with. Doors, chests, etc. You couldn;t tell just by looking, a room might have 3 chests in a row and only 1 "counts" as an object you can interact with, in this case search for treasure. The other 2 just count as scenery. Only way to check is to point your mouse at it. Takes a while, tedious, can miss stuff. There are even hidden magic items in tiny receptacles, a few pixels wide. You are rewarding for dragging all over every square inch of the game, and it ain't a small game either!

In Baldur's Gate 2, I can hold Tab to highlight everything I can interact with. Does this break the game or make it easier? Nope, it just streamlines it. Removes pointless busy work. I can enter a room, hold tab for a sec, see exactly what I can play with, and continue my game. I really don't see the problem with this. It just makes the game flow better.

Getting stuck, lost or confused isn't fun for me. I don't really understand the attraction of a less intuitive interface. Fable's trail of breadcrumbs is a bit much true, but an arrow to point the general direction, a glow around objects I can interact with, that type of thing is fine and dandy.

.... i played a lot of pc games that "helped" you along the way, also its a developer choice, has nothing to do with the platform.

I thought you can still remove that feature in the console versions of Deus Ex...

Other than that, I agree. I dislike random things popping up and telling me what to do. Another complaint I have is XP systems popping up in single player games. I'm not a fan of hit markers in FPS games, either. In F.E.A.R. 3 when you complete a challenge, a large icon pops up in the bottom left of the screen that ruins any immersion the game could have offered otherwise.

Gonna use a PC example cos you'll probably mock any console example...

In Baldur's Gate 1, I had to "pixel hunt" by dragging my pointer all over the screen to see what I could interact with. Doors, chests, etc. You couldn;t tell just by looking, a room might have 3 chests in a row and only 1 "counts" as an object you can interact with, in this case search for treasure. The other 2 just count as scenery. Only way to check is to point your mouse at it. Takes a while, tedious, can miss stuff. There are even hidden magic items in tiny receptacles, a few pixels wide. You are rewarding for dragging all over every square inch of the game, and it ain't a small game either!

In Baldur's Gate 2, I can hold Tab to highlight everything I can interact with. Does this break the game or make it easier? Nope, it just streamlines it. Removes pointless busy work. I can enter a room, hold tab for a sec, see exactly what I can play with, and continue my game. I really don't see the problem with this. It just makes the game flow better.

Getting stuck, lost or confused isn't fun for me. I don't really understand the attraction of a less intuitive interface. Fable's trail of breadcrumbs is a bit much true, but an arrow to point the general direction, a glow around objects I can interact with, that type of thing is fine and dandy.

locopatho

Giving The Witcher 2 as your example is very poor. That games prologue suffered because it lacked the necessary handholding to teach the player about the basic game mechanics.

Giving The Witcher 2 as your example is very poor. That games prologue suffered because it lacked the necessary handholding to teach the player about the basic game mechanics.

JangoWuzHere

Yeah, TW2's prologue was an oversight, a design fault. The devs themselves admitted that and are fixing it.

listen to NPCs, process information, go from there.

ehussein1379

Yeah, that can go away

I don't want to have to figure out everything in my games, if I wanted to do that I'd take up a career in the real world where I have to do it.

I want gameplay mechanics and I want a good story, I don't want to have to remember and write down everything I think might be important later down the road. I want to be able to have a quest and have the game keep a log of what I'm doing and what else I need.

The idea that anyone can applaud a game for giving you needless busywork is beyond me

Hand Holding is good for tutorial levels.

Of course, the fact that many console games have hand holding instantly makes consoles bad, evil and industry destroying right?

[QUOTE="ehussein1379"]

listen to NPCs, process information, go from there.

Jaysonguy

Yeah, that can go away

I don't want to have to figure out everything in my games, if I wanted to do that I'd take up a career in the real world where I have to do it.

I want gameplay mechanics and I want a good story, I don't want to have to remember and write down everything I think might be important later down the road. I want to be able to have a quest and have the game keep a log of what I'm doing and what else I need.

The idea that anyone can applaud a game for giving you needless busywork is beyond me

Giving The Witcher 2 as your example is very poor. That games prologue suffered because it lacked the necessary handholding to teach the player about the basic game mechanics.

JangoWuzHere

look at WoW. they first thing people used to do was download a questfinder mod that showed you on the map where you needed to go and a arrow that points in the direction.

now that is a feature that blizzard add as an OPTION already built in.

[QUOTE="locopatho"]

Gonna use a PC example cos you'll probably mock any console example...

In Baldur's Gate 1, I had to "pixel hunt" by dragging my pointer all over the screen to see what I could interact with. Doors, chests, etc. You couldn;t tell just by looking, a room might have 3 chests in a row and only 1 "counts" as an object you can interact with, in this case search for treasure. The other 2 just count as scenery. Only way to check is to point your mouse at it. Takes a while, tedious, can miss stuff. There are even hidden magic items in tiny receptacles, a few pixels wide. You are rewarding for dragging all over every square inch of the game, and it ain't a small game either!

In Baldur's Gate 2, I can hold Tab to highlight everything I can interact with. Does this break the game or make it easier? Nope, it just streamlines it. Removes pointless busy work. I can enter a room, hold tab for a sec, see exactly what I can play with, and continue my game. I really don't see the problem with this. It just makes the game flow better.

Getting stuck, lost or confused isn't fun for me. I don't really understand the attraction of a less intuitive interface. Fable's trail of breadcrumbs is a bit much true, but an arrow to point the general direction, a glow around objects I can interact with, that type of thing is fine and dandy.

Vinegar_Strokes

I like open endedness in games but when they make it overly difficult to find out where to go, I think it detracts from the game a little bit.

look at WoW. they first thing people used to do was download a questfinder mod that showed you on the map where you needed to go and a arrow that points in the direction.

now that is a feature that blizzard add as an OPTION already built in.

Vinegar_Strokes

There are some games that have pretty good systems for player help. For example, today, Prototype informed me that I have never used some of the powers I've purchased. Such adaptive systems only interfere when they detect that the player is doing something stupid (I'm sure there are more examples, I just can't think of any ATM).

I'm in agreement. I hate it when a game holds on to you for too long. Sometimes, I want someone to tell me what to do, and not have the game make it clear. Sure, there can be a menu to check these objectives, but if I want to, let me be the character responding to another character.

[QUOTE="TrapJak"]

PC IS SUPERIOR RAHH.

How many times is this gonna be implied before you realize that no-one cares enough to get rid of consoles?

ehussein1379

But if you get rid of your consoles there is nothing to SW over ... so please, stick with the consoles (if that is your desire).

Fable 3 is a perfect example: if you lose your way in that game something is seriously wrong. You literally can't fail.

[QUOTE="ehussein1379"]

[QUOTE="TrapJak"]

PC IS SUPERIOR RAHH.

How many times is this gonna be implied before you realize that no-one cares enough to get rid of consoles?

clone01

But if you get rid of your consoles there is nothing to SW over ... so please, stick with the consoles (if that is your desire).

Fable 3 is a perfect example: if you lose your way in that game something is seriously wrong. You literally can't fail.

Even his profile pic is the same!

Even his profile pic is the same!

turtlethetaffer

Yep...pretty sure he hopped IP addresses.

[QUOTE="turtlethetaffer"]Even his profile pic is the same!

clone01

Yep...pretty sure he hopped IP addresses.

Yeah probably. Say he hasn't posted in a while. Wonder why that is?

I wouldn't mind all the hold holding stuff if it was optional in most games, but usually it's not.Luxen90

Exactly. Oblivion was the first time I noticed the over abundance of "you will NEVER understand" mantra of the devs.... so they keep the tutorial going for the WHOLE game.

On console where you are stretching 1920x1080 over 55"s I get it - you NEED huge text and little helpers because the screen is too fuzzy to present information without massive highlighting ... on PC however it makes it feel like watching Sesame Street guess the letter.

[QUOTE="Luxen90"]I wouldn't mind all the hold holding stuff if it was optional in most games, but usually it's not.ehussein1379

Exactly. Oblivion was the first time I noticed the over abundance of "you will NEVER understand" mantra of the devs.... so they keep the tutorial going for the WHOLE game.

On console where you are stretching 1920x1080 over 55"s I get it - you NEED huge text and little helpers because the screen is too fuzzy to present information without massive highlighting ... on PC however it makes it feel like watching Sesame Street guess the letter.

so basically you are saying all console games suck cus more help and console and all PC rules cus no help and graphics? Yup, you're definitley Haberman.

[QUOTE="ehussein1379"]

[QUOTE="Luxen90"]I wouldn't mind all the hold holding stuff if it was optional in most games, but usually it's not.turtlethetaffer

Exactly. Oblivion was the first time I noticed the over abundance of "you will NEVER understand" mantra of the devs.... so they keep the tutorial going for the WHOLE game.

On console where you are stretching 1920x1080 over 55"s I get it - you NEED huge text and little helpers because the screen is too fuzzy to present information without massive highlighting ... on PC however it makes it feel like watching Sesame Street guess the letter.

so basically you are saying all console games suck cus more help and console and all PC rules cus no help and graphics? Yup, you're definitley Haberman.

A good game, is good regardless. I honestly couldn't care less. Zelda OOT holds your hand forever, yet it's one of my favorite games ever.i5750at4Ghz

how does it hold your hand? Just curious. Aside form Navi and some introductory stuff I don't think it holds your hand much.

[QUOTE="ehussein1379"]

[QUOTE="Luxen90"]I wouldn't mind all the hold holding stuff if it was optional in most games, but usually it's not.turtlethetaffer

Exactly. Oblivion was the first time I noticed the over abundance of "you will NEVER understand" mantra of the devs.... so they keep the tutorial going for the WHOLE game.

On console where you are stretching 1920x1080 over 55"s I get it - you NEED huge text and little helpers because the screen is too fuzzy to present information without massive highlighting ... on PC however it makes it feel like watching Sesame Street guess the letter.

so basically you are saying all console games suck cus more help and console and all PC rules cus no help and graphics? Yup, you're definitley Haberman.

No, I'm saying hand holding hurts games. The trend basically began with consoles, and makes sense there because small pixels are too hard to discern.

Feel free to report me ... for what I don't know ?!?

[QUOTE="ehussein1379"]

[QUOTE="Luxen90"]I wouldn't mind all the hold holding stuff if it was optional in most games, but usually it's not.turtlethetaffer

Exactly. Oblivion was the first time I noticed the over abundance of "you will NEVER understand" mantra of the devs.... so they keep the tutorial going for the WHOLE game.

On console where you are stretching 1920x1080 over 55"s I get it - you NEED huge text and little helpers because the screen is too fuzzy to present information without massive highlighting ... on PC however it makes it feel like watching Sesame Street guess the letter.

so basically you are saying all console games suck cus more help and console and all PC rules cus no help and graphics? Yup, you're definitley Haberman.

I think he's saying that you need big letters and helpers because since consoles upscale games, so on big TVs you need standout prompts or you may not see/know what you are doing but since PC games are clearer it's not necessary.

[QUOTE="turtlethetaffer"]

[QUOTE="ehussein1379"]

Exactly. Oblivion was the first time I noticed the over abundance of "you will NEVER understand" mantra of the devs.... so they keep the tutorial going for the WHOLE game.

On console where you are stretching 1920x1080 over 55"s I get it - you NEED huge text and little helpers because the screen is too fuzzy to present information without massive highlighting ... on PC however it makes it feel like watching Sesame Street guess the letter.

GD1551

so basically you are saying all console games suck cus more help and console and all PC rules cus no help and graphics? Yup, you're definitley Haberman.

I think he's saying that you need big letters and helpers because since consoles upscale games, so on big TVs you need standout prompts or you may not see/know what you are doing but since PC games are clearer it's not necessary.

Thank you. That is my point exactly.

[QUOTE="turtlethetaffer"]

[QUOTE="ehussein1379"]

Exactly. Oblivion was the first time I noticed the over abundance of "you will NEVER understand" mantra of the devs.... so they keep the tutorial going for the WHOLE game.

On console where you are stretching 1920x1080 over 55"s I get it - you NEED huge text and little helpers because the screen is too fuzzy to present information without massive highlighting ... on PC however it makes it feel like watching Sesame Street guess the letter.

ehussein1379

so basically you are saying all console games suck cus more help and console and all PC rules cus no help and graphics? Yup, you're definitley Haberman.

No, I'm saying hand holding hurts games. The trend basically began with consoles, and makes sense there because small pixels are too hard to discern.

Feel free to report me ... for what I don't know ?!?

So what if it started on consoles? What does that mean? Also I won't report you, Haberman.

I agree with you TC on the title but I'm a primarly a console gamer and I can't stand hand-holding. I blame the games devellopers not the consoles, why can't they just put the option as well in console. Btw tc what's your sig

I know you don't like Holding that Guy's Hand in Fable 3, but you're going to....oh wait.

The opposite of hand holding is even worse, I'm looking at you Baldur's Gate 2...

I thought this was about escort missions... I hate those :P

I don't understand this obsession with people prasing the Witcher 2 for not hand-holding. Its really not that hard to play the game. Sure it does reqiure you to think but not much. The game just had a poor tutorial.

I don't understand this obsession with people prasing the Witcher 2 for not hand-holding. Its really not that hard to play the game. Sure it does reqiure you to think but not much. The game just had a poor tutorial.

Gibsonsg527

But hey man... it's a PC game which makes it instantly superior.

[QUOTE="Gibsonsg527"]

I don't understand this obsession with people prasing the Witcher 2 for not hand-holding. Its really not that hard to play the game. Sure it does reqiure you to think but not much. The game just had a poor tutorial.

turtlethetaffer

But hey man... it's a PC game which makes it instantly superior.

So they say...

[QUOTE="turtlethetaffer"]

[QUOTE="Gibsonsg527"]

I don't understand this obsession with people prasing the Witcher 2 for not hand-holding. Its really not that hard to play the game. Sure it does reqiure you to think but not much. The game just had a poor tutorial.

GreenGoblin2099

But hey man... it's a PC game which makes it instantly superior.

So they say...

Can I ask a question? What does the term "PC game" imply?

Gonna use a PC example cos you'll probably mock any console example...

In Baldur's Gate 1, I had to "pixel hunt" by dragging my pointer all over the screen to see what I could interact with. Doors, chests, etc. You couldn;t tell just by looking, a room might have 3 chests in a row and only 1 "counts" as an object you can interact with, in this case search for treasure. The other 2 just count as scenery. Only way to check is to point your mouse at it. Takes a while, tedious, can miss stuff. There are even hidden magic items in tiny receptacles, a few pixels wide. You are rewarding for dragging all over every square inch of the game, and it ain't a small game either!

In Baldur's Gate 2, I can hold Tab to highlight everything I can interact with. Does this break the game or make it easier? Nope, it just streamlines it. Removes pointless busy work. I can enter a room, hold tab for a sec, see exactly what I can play with, and continue my game. I really don't see the problem with this. It just makes the game flow better.

Getting stuck, lost or confused isn't fun for me. I don't really understand the attraction of a less intuitive interface. Fable's trail of breadcrumbs is a bit much true, but an arrow to point the general direction, a glow around objects I can interact with, that type of thing is fine and dandy.

locopatho

I agree that hand holding to the extent of Fable is bad, but a lot of it is just time saving stuff that was never really fun.

this is pathetic. I think what the tc meant with the witcher 2 is, late game, you really need to pay attention because certain npcs will say things about a character or an event or a location and then later on you will encounter puzzles or situations where said knowledge comes in handy to either save your ass or help you advance forward.

No hand holding whatsoever as the game really forces you to think and pay attention even to the little details around you (non combat situations). Veterans of the game will know what I am talking about.

Demon's souls is another game with little to no hand holding. That game will force you to pay attention.