How the PS3 may outperform the 360 graphically.

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ff-leader

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#1 ff-leader
Member since 2006 • 2400 Posts

At the moment, admittedly, it's preety close between PS3 and Xbox360 visuals. But things are going to change. Xbox360 is more than a year old so developers have gained experience with the hardware and are working on second generation titles. With PS3, most studios are only on their first project, and still learning. But here's the really important message -

many current PS3 games are really only using the machine's PowerPC proccesing element(PPE)- the general processor at the heart of IBM's cell engine. The seven secondary processors - or SPUs- are hardly being touched at the moment. When development really gets going, programmers will use these specialised chips to process specific elements such as physics, surround sound and AI, leaving the PPE and NVIDIA graphics chipset to do what they're good at, generating and sorting enormously complex 3D graphics.

With the second wave of PS3 games, then, we're going to see greater use of breathtaking effects like high dynamic lighting as well as realistic fluid dynamics, profoundly subtle shadowing and extraordinarily realistic character animation. And, increasingly, it will be viewable in ultra sharp 1080p.

From what i have read Final Fantasy XIII will be using only 4 SPUs, and they say that the graphics will be better than The Spirits Within in this article -

part one- http://finalfantasy-xiii.net/image.php?image=media/scans/psm/07.jpg

part two- http://finalfantasy-xiii.net/image.php?image=media/scans/psm/08.jpg

If this is possible with only 4 SPUs then think of the possibilities.

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HeHateMe_basic

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#2 HeHateMe_basic
Member since 2002 • 7161 Posts
if cows cared about graphics they wouldnt have bought a ps2.
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daveg1

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#3 daveg1
Member since 2005 • 20405 Posts

does'nt the ps3 only have 5 that they can use??

plus the only way the ps3 can have better graphics than the 360 id if they recall all the ps3 and put a new grphics card in there!

 

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ff-leader

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#4 ff-leader
Member since 2006 • 2400 Posts

This is how most people assume the PS3 will outperform the 360, im not stating it as fact but it will definetely improve on the PS3's graphics. Im just stating a valid argument, we will only see if it outperforms the 360 in the games released. I have a 360 and i am curious to see how much the SPU's can improve the PS3's perfomance. This topic is based on fact rather than some ignorant topics made by hardcore fanboys.

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gmastersexay

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#5 gmastersexay
Member since 2003 • 3831 Posts

does'nt the ps3 only have 5 that they can use??

plus the only way the ps3 can have better graphics than the 360 id if they recall all the ps3 and put a new grphics card in there!

 

daveg1

It has 8 SPE's but only uses 7. 8th one is for redundency.

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philhilluk

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#6 philhilluk
Member since 2004 • 1007 Posts

I am still waiting for the Toy Story graphics on the PS2...... they promised it could be done if the developers unlocked the PS2's potential......

 

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rocklegacy2

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#7 rocklegacy2
Member since 2005 • 8428 Posts

if cows cared about graphics they wouldnt have bought a ps2.HeHateMe_basic

Who says they didn't?

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rocklegacy2

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#8 rocklegacy2
Member since 2005 • 8428 Posts

if cows cared about graphics they wouldnt have bought a ps2.HeHateMe_basic

Who says they didn't?

And if you oppose the cows, you better come up with an argument.

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fuzzysquash

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#9 fuzzysquash
Member since 2004 • 17374 Posts
The screens in the mag are CG, just to clarify.
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caribo2222

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#10 caribo2222
Member since 2006 • 1181 Posts

Ps3 has 1 core 8 Spus

360 has 4 cores = 360 pwnz ps3

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jrpgliker

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#11 jrpgliker
Member since 2006 • 663 Posts

the funny thing is AM2 STAFF said when the port VF5 on ps3 , they already used the full power of cell .( 1 ppe and 4 spe, sorry, they said other 3 spe can't be used , because that downgrade the ppe performance.)

:lol:

 

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asdasd

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#12 asdasd
Member since 2005 • 4464 Posts

Ps3 has 1 core 8 Spus

360 has 4 cores = 360 pwnz ps3

caribo2222

Uhmmm 360 has 3 cores...

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caribo2222

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#13 caribo2222
Member since 2006 • 1181 Posts
Still 3 cores pwnz one.
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davaniius

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#14 davaniius
Member since 2007 • 498 Posts
There is no point in filling our heads with technical jargon,at the end of the day..........we will know soon enough when we play these games.By the way,it doesn't matter which system is the most powerful at the end of the day,Sony fans are gonna buy the ps3 and Microsoft fans are gonna by the x360.Only a few will change their minds and that's because some folks read too much in these forums.
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Kayrod29

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#15 Kayrod29
Member since 2005 • 5301 Posts

It's been stated millions and millions of times, and even by Sony's own Insomniac,

 

THE XBOX 360 GPU IS BETTER THEN PS3'S GPU 

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XL83

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#16 XL83
Member since 2007 • 994 Posts

if cows cared about graphics they wouldnt have bought a ps2.HeHateMe_basic

My head hurts.

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XL83

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#17 XL83
Member since 2007 • 994 Posts

Ps3 has 1 core 8 Spus

360 has 4 cores = 360 pwnz ps3

caribo2222

ROFL

Now if there were a poster made for dumbass fanboys, this would be the blazing headline in 240 pt bold, and you sir, you would be the posterboy.

"xBoX hAvEz mOr3 c0ReZ lOlOloLLolZ w3 wInz pWn3D!!!!!111"

Do you even have the slightest idea what a "core" is? Besides the thing inside those colorful things your mom tries to get you to eat? 

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Prid3r

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#18 Prid3r
Member since 2004 • 8643 Posts

GPU = Graphics capability

360 GPU > PS3 GPU . 

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XL83

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#19 XL83
Member since 2007 • 994 Posts

the funny thing is AM2 STAFF said when the port VF5 on ps3 , they already used the full power of cell .( 1 ppe and 4 spe, sorry, they said other 3 spe can't be used , because that downgrade the ppe performance.)

:lol:

 

jrpgliker


Source:  http://wwi.pulledstatisticsoutta.my.ass

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XL83

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#21 XL83
Member since 2007 • 994 Posts

GPU = Graphics capability

360 GPU > PS3 GPU .

Prid3r

Again, according to http://www.absolutelymadethisupwithnofactualbasiswhatsoever.com

 

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Ryusuken

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#23 Ryusuken
Member since 2003 • 467 Posts

Well, forgeting the blatant/stupid/blind fanboyism that runs rampant here at SW ,the facts are:

1- PS3 has 1 all purpose core with 7 fully capable SPUs, that can works as the main one, if programed to do it if needed be, and, of course, if done correctly (so much for the stupid X360 3 all purpose cores > PS3).

2- The Cell can and will stream graphics/ auxiliate in the graphics department IF its programed to do it. Its all in the developers hands, so, cry me a river fanboys, its all in their hands (not Sonys, wich is giving tools for every one that wants them to develop for the PS3).

3- Fanboyism kill you brain big time. It makes you stupid and blind to reason and common sense...oh lets not forget logic as well.

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ff-leader

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#24 ff-leader
Member since 2006 • 2400 Posts
Some interesting info Ryusuken, but do you know if the full 7 SPUs have become available to developers yet?
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tango90101

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#25 tango90101
Member since 2006 • 5977 Posts

It's interesting that all the "proof" of the ps3's graphical abiliities are tied to future tense predictions and nothing in the present?

sounds a lot like the ps2's "hidden power"....:roll:

 

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Reneg4de

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#26 Reneg4de
Member since 2003 • 142 Posts

[QUOTE="HeHateMe_basic"]if cows cared about graphics they wouldnt have bought a ps2.master2

 

HEY MORON...PS2 had better graphics than Xbox.
GOW / Gran Turismo / Tekken

 

Wrong. Ps2 during the end of it's cycle has been able to put out graphics that match some xbox 1 games but overall it is graphically inferior and this is old news.

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caribo2222

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#27 caribo2222
Member since 2006 • 1181 Posts
The ps3 its going to end up like the dreamcast.:D
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CAlNlAC

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#28 CAlNlAC
Member since 2006 • 689 Posts
The ps3 its going to end up like the dreamcast.:Dcaribo2222
So in other words, a great console that had lots of great games but just did'nt live very long.
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Zenkuso

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#29 Zenkuso
Member since 2006 • 4090 Posts

Cells ability to be used for rendering is very limited, and not very worthwhile graphically it can't really help to a great extent, it could render low res (and help process high res) but we are talking the low res standards from games back in the 2000 era. The thing it will help at though are the main backings for games like physics, lighting, geometry mapping, texture streaming, etc, etc. The processing abilities of the cell will help a game more then a graphical spit shine.

The some of the techniques used by square for there games are rare, some of the things they used to make FF12 look the way it is have never been employed in the industry before and they really do try and push a console to its limits with each game, however generally there first attempt on a new console is normally lesser then there successors so they can improve. They could max out the console with there first game but this doesn't leave them much room to move for its successors so they tend not to do it to make there games look better later.

Most would argue that its because they get more fimilar with the hardware as the generation progresses but half the time its a lie because these are professional in the industry who know more about using hardware and its limitations then your local rocket scientist. Of coarse normally over the generation span new techniques will be employed to help but most are never really employed til the end of a consoles life span.

Geows has done this, whilst graphically impressive it isn't maxing the console and has room to improve but unfortunately geows has set a rather high standard for many developers to try and live up to graphical that many will try to achieve it.

Now on-topic more...

The cells central core and only core can unfortunately get outperformed by P4 chips so it isn't a freak of nature like people seem to think it is and whilst people think it is a beast it can get bottlenecked by itself without the interferance of the rsx at all, yeah you heard that right the cell can bottleneck itself if you overload it with to much data so you have to clearfully optimize to make sure you avoid these things by spreading the load across the DPS's (SPUs) and don't stuff up otherwise you get framerate problems, etc, etc.

Those ffxiii pictures and the sprit within are cgi, meaning they are pre-render cutscenes made specially out of engine (sometimes in-engine but rarely).

Whilst you believe that many current ps3 games aren't using the cells 7 DPS's (SPUs as nicknamed by sony) most of them actually are but they ain't being used effectively like the exclusive games on the system use them, now alot of those games ain't using all the DPS's (SPUs) most games are generally having to use atleast 2 of them to function properly because the single and only core of the cell is pretty average. 

Now take into account that the majority of gaming uses general purpose code which cell itself isn't built for and you have even more problems but thats another story all together and i'll end it at that because i could debate this hardware stuff all night but i need sleep for work like everyone else.

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caribo2222

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#30 caribo2222
Member since 2006 • 1181 Posts
No its just that now people can see how great consoles can be with the 360, so the see the Ps3 for what it really is a mediocre gaiming machine.
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ff-leader

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#31 ff-leader
Member since 2006 • 2400 Posts

Zencuso i'm impressed by your knowledge thank you for the info. From what i can the SPUs have been overhyped as a marketing ploy maybe?

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caribo2222

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#32 caribo2222
Member since 2006 • 1181 Posts

Zencuso i'm impressed by your knowledge thank you for the info. From what i can the SPUs have been overhyped as a marketing ploy maybe?

ff-leader

No blind fanboys hyping a machine which is failing.

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Zenkuso

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#33 Zenkuso
Member since 2006 • 4090 Posts

Zencuso i'm impressed by your knowledge thank you for the info. From what i can the SPUs have been overhyped as a marketing ploy maybe?

ff-leader

No there actually quite effective when used properly, but most ain't using them right or we'll don't know how to use them right. The thing beats the cpu in the 360 handsdown without debate (even if people think otherwise). Thats the main reason sony is having to make new development tools specially for the cell itself because its so difficult to actually work with and to properly understand, i can't even understand it fully myself but i work in a completely different part of the software industry so it really isn't my field but i do keep up with things like this cause its a given to know the limitation of hardware when your a programmer and even more so when your a software engineer.

The main thing is that ps3 is more processing power then the x360 but graphically the x360 if used proper should always have a graphical advantage over the ps3. Unfortunately it just comes down to how you develop for the systems and how good you are at using the hardware for each.

I actually find it funny how people keep showing screenshots around here saying how better ps3 looks over the x360 games on multiplatform games its just the lighting differance between the systems. If you knew the hardware you'd have realized that ps3 is very good at lighting because of float-point math calculations its able to do and because of this lighting differance its able to show up the detail better then the x360 can and thats most times the only differance, sometimes its just the developers put more work into the port then most would and have been able to adjust and tweak and push some more out like beth did with oblivion.

 

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RedDaemon

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#34 RedDaemon
Member since 2004 • 425 Posts

Um the thread starter would have a valid point... if each SPE didn't have a mere 256 KB memory...

oh and that's right... he forgot to mention that with each SPU the coding becomes harder...

oh and wait again... he forgot to mention that game development time is not long enough currently to maximize core usage...

let me explain:

The single (BTW 1 PPE and 7 SPE not 8 SPE) PPE carries the main code, and little tidbits of code (pointers essentially) are put on each SPE (or however many you desire).  Now the PPE runs the main code and then calls out to the SPE's (SPE's are essentially uber ALU's... and when combined they become a really fast modular ALU) and then the SPE's run the calculations and then communicate back at an alarming speed (speed increases with number of SPE's used).  Now since the PS3 GPU has only 256 MB of ram, it would have to rely on system ram or core ram to increase performance.  However, in the case of the PS3... neither have supple amounts of resources to provide.

Now the sheer processing power does cover up for the lack of GPU ability, and with all 7 SPE's running it would surpass graphics of the 360.  But the CPU power would be bottlenecked due to not enough ram, and as I said earlier, with each SPE core the coding becomes harder.

Developers have yet to grow comfortable with this type of coding, and in the life cycle of the console (about 5 years is my guess), it looks very unlikely that even 6 SPE cores will be used.

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Duckyindiana

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#35 Duckyindiana
Member since 2006 • 3040 Posts
Some interesting info Ryusuken, but do you know if the full 7 SPUs have become available to developers yet?ff-leader
Developers can not use all 7 as one is used for the os and i think if the os needs more it can use a second one so you are left with 5-6 SPUs.
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ff-leader

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#36 ff-leader
Member since 2006 • 2400 Posts
So without the full 7 SPUSs working together does that mean the 360 will surpass the PS3 graphically?
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reya10276

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#37 reya10276
Member since 2003 • 208 Posts

So without the full 7 SPUSs working together does that mean the 360 will surpass the PS3 graphically?ff-leader

 

Yes buddy that is exactly what it means! I know is a tuff one to swallow but those are the facts. Also let's be really honest here as a gamer are you willing to wait 3-5 years until the P$3 gets better if ever. Why not just go get a 360 play games with us online on a real connected network and enjoy it, instead of all this wasting your time on this systems wars stuff. Great games you'll enjoy online are GOW, Madden 07/08, NBK2K7/8, MLB2k7, PGR3 and much more so come on over an join us, PS3 will still be there collecting dust or making sure those important papers never fly out the window...

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#38 snyper1982
Member since 2004 • 3407 Posts

At the moment, admittedly, it's preety close between PS3 and Xbox360 visuals. But things are going to change. Xbox360 is more than a year old so developers have gained experience with the hardware and are working on second generation titles. With PS3, most studios are only on their first project, and still learning. But here's the really important message -

many current PS3 games are really only using the machine's PowerPC proccesing element(PPE)- the general processor at the heart of IBM's cell engine. The seven secondary processors - or SPUs- are hardly being touched at the moment. When development really gets going, programmers will use these specialised chips to process specific elements such as physics, surround sound and AI, leaving the PPE and NVIDIA graphics chipset to do what they're good at, generating and sorting enormously complex 3D graphics.

With the second wave of PS3 games, then, we're going to see greater use of breathtaking effects like high dynamic lighting as well as realistic fluid dynamics, profoundly subtle shadowing and extraordinarily realistic character animation. And, increasingly, it will be viewable in ultra sharp 1080p.

From what i have read Final Fantasy XIII will be using only 4 SPUs, and they say that the graphics will be better than The Spirits Within in this article -

part one- http://finalfantasy-xiii.net/image.php?image=media/scans/psm/07.jpg

part two- http://finalfantasy-xiii.net/image.php?image=media/scans/psm/08.jpg

If this is possible with only 4 SPUs then think of the possibilities.

ff-leader

 

Sony has been promising CG quality graphics since they originally released the PS2 with the EE. I will believe it when I see it. Only 6 SPU's are availible to the devs anyways. One last point, the best looking game out right now(GeOW), was a first generation game for the x360, in the sense that it was Epic's first game made for the 360. So everything you are sayning for the PS3 will hold true for the 360 as well. Both systems will get better. Your theroy is based on the 360 remaining graphically stagnant, while the PS3 continues to improve. That is just not that case though.

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snyper1982

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#39 snyper1982
Member since 2004 • 3407 Posts

This is how most people assume the PS3 will outperform the 360, im not stating it as fact but it will definetely improve on the PS3's graphics. Im just stating a valid argument, we will only see if it outperforms the 360 in the games released. I have a 360 and i am curious to see how much the SPU's can improve the PS3's perfomance. This topic is based on fact rather than some ignorant topics made by hardcore fanboys.

ff-leader

 

No, this topic is based on conjecture, and nothing else. 

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kaealy

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#40 kaealy
Member since 2004 • 2179 Posts
From what i have read Final Fantasy XIII will be using only 4 SPUs, and they say that the graphics will be better than The Spirits Within in this article -

part one- http://finalfantasy-xiii.net/image.php?image=media/scans/psm/07.jpg

part two- http://finalfantasy-xiii.net/image.php?image=media/scans/psm/08.jpg

If this is possible with only 4 SPUs then think of the possibilities.

ff-leader

As fuzzysquash said earlier, those pics are all CGI. Does it really matters if the final fantasys CGI matches The Spirits Within's quality CGI?

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demoralizer

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#41 demoralizer
Member since 2002 • 2023 Posts
May outperform is hard to swallow when the console costs more and Sony Claimed the PS3 is so much more powerful then Xbox1.5,  (it launched and it wasn't), Sony now says we have to wait a couple years. I'll wait and see before I get a PS3, the console defiantly doesn't live up to hype Sonys claimed.
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haols

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#42 haols
Member since 2005 • 2348 Posts

You have some points, but there are many flaws in your post.

1. The PPE is needed for the SPEs to do ANYTHING. Think of it as the commander (PPE) and its soldiers(SPEs).
Without the commander the soldiers are good for nothing.

2. The SPEs are certainly capable, but it takes a VERY capable developer to deal with them.


But you are corect when saying that later PS3 games will look MUCH better then the current ones, but that goes to all of the consoles. The Xbox 360 has a little less growth left though as it was released earlier.

BTW, one of the SPEs is reserved for the OS. That leaves 6 for games.

It was nice to see such a good post on this board for a change, this wasn't the normal fanboy ranting common here.

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legalize3

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#43 legalize3
Member since 2007 • 1670 Posts

hahaha i love to see alot of people trying to be smart and know what the cell is capable offf once again....

 

FACtOr 5>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sytem wars

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trasherhead

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#44 trasherhead
Member since 2005 • 3058 Posts

does'nt the ps3 only have 5 that they can use??

plus the only way the ps3 can have better graphics than the 360 id if they recall all the ps3 and put a new grphics card in there!

 

daveg1

No, there are 8 SPU's, one which is reserved for the OS. So its 7 SPU's for the devs to use.

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trasherhead

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#45 trasherhead
Member since 2005 • 3058 Posts

Ps3 has 1 core 8 Spus

360 has 4 cores = 360 pwnz ps3

caribo2222

4 cores now is it?

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onewiththegame

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#46 onewiththegame
Member since 2004 • 4415 Posts
[QUOTE="master2"]

[QUOTE="HeHateMe_basic"]if cows cared about graphics they wouldnt have bought a ps2.Reneg4de

 

HEY MORON...PS2 had better graphics than Xbox.
GOW / Gran Turismo / Tekken

 

Wrong. Ps2 during the end of it's cycle has been able to put out graphics that match some xbox 1 games but overall it is graphically inferior and this is old news.

True Story

do some cow's really think PS2 came close to xbox in terms of graphics?

lol

 

 

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snyper1982

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#47 snyper1982
Member since 2004 • 3407 Posts
[QUOTE="daveg1"]

does'nt the ps3 only have 5 that they can use??

plus the only way the ps3 can have better graphics than the 360 id if they recall all the ps3 and put a new grphics card in there!

 

gmastersexay

It has 8 SPE's but only uses 7. 8th one is for redundency.

 

And 1 SPU is for the OS, so that leaves only 6.... 

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snyper1982

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#48 snyper1982
Member since 2004 • 3407 Posts
[QUOTE="daveg1"]

does'nt the ps3 only have 5 that they can use??

plus the only way the ps3 can have better graphics than the 360 id if they recall all the ps3 and put a new grphics card in there!

 

trasherhead

No, there are 8 SPU's, one which is reserved for the OS. So its 7 SPU's for the devs to use.

 

 

And one of which is for redundancy, so there are 6 cores availible.... 

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squallff8_fan

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#49 squallff8_fan
Member since 2006 • 2949 Posts

if cows cared about graphics they wouldnt have bought a ps2.HeHateMe_basic

Yes I would say that too, if I knew this game wasnt coming to my system. Anyways this game is going to be awesome, especially versus with kingdom hearts type gameplay, I am so hyped for these games especially with the graphics lookin beautiful. :)

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squallff8_fan

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#50 squallff8_fan
Member since 2006 • 2949 Posts
[QUOTE="Reneg4de"][QUOTE="master2"]

[QUOTE="HeHateMe_basic"]if cows cared about graphics they wouldnt have bought a ps2.onewiththegame

 

HEY MORON...PS2 had better graphics than Xbox.
GOW / Gran Turismo / Tekken

 

Wrong. Ps2 during the end of it's cycle has been able to put out graphics that match some xbox 1 games but overall it is graphically inferior and this is old news.

True Story

do some cow's really think PS2 came close to xbox in terms of graphics?

lol

 

 

Doesnt matter because the ps2, blew the xbox away in sales, and for a system that was much weaker in specs, it did a pretty damn good job of graphics compared to xbox games.