huge interview with stardock about pc gaming

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blackdreamhunk

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#1 blackdreamhunk
Member since 2007 • 3880 Posts

the interview is kind huge so take a look

http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=994

Stardock CEO Brad Wardell made headlines recently with the debut of the "Gamer's Bill of Rights," a ten-point plan to revitalize PC gaming that he developed in conjunction with Gas Powered Games CEO Chris Taylor.

Always honest and never shy, Wardell has gained a reputation as an outspoken critic of many conventional responses to the problems facing the PC platform. Recently I caught up with him for a lengthy interview, covering everything from the Bill's conception to his controversial views on piracy.

What is his answer to charges of setting unrealistic goals in the interest of a publicity stunt? What does he have to say about Crysis developer Crytek's conservative stance on piracy? Does the Sins of a Solar Empire developer read the Shacknews comments? Read on to find out.

Shack: Tell me about how the Gamer's Bill of Rights came about.

Brad Wardell: The genesis of it was.. a friend of mine, who's been a hardcore PC gamer, bought Oblivion for the Xbox 360. And I asked him, "Why did you do that? You're a PC guy. Why would you want a.." I'm not anti-console, but I wouldn't want, I couldn't imagine--I was really surprised.

And he says, "I'll tell you why. I buy it for my Xbox, it's gonna work. Period. It's just gonna work. I know it's going to be finished, and I know it's going to work."

So I started talking to him, and then I got to talking to other people who are--they're not the people who hang out on Shack. These are people who are normal, day to day--

Shack: Oh, normal people. [laughs]

The people who are going to buy stuff are going to buy it, and the people who are never gonna buy it, well, who cares about them? They're not a lost sale.

Brad Wardell: Yeah, I mean, it's funny. I'm at PAX, and I'm trying to find out what's happening at PAX, so I'm logging onto Shacknews to find out what's at PAX, but I'm at PAX. [laughs]

But we're into it, we're into the gaming community so to speak. So these are just regular, more casual gamers, but they buy games. And it came up over and over again. One guy had gotten a game with Starforce on it, and it had actually messed up his ability to burn DVDs. I'm not a Starforce expert, but--

Shack: That's actually happened to me.

Brad Wardell: It did? But you know how to fix that stuff, right? Basically his solution was to reinstall Windows. And he says, "I'm done." He's not buying games from anybody, because he doesn't know what uses it and what doesn't.

And another guy bought a game, and he's in the armed forces, he's in Iraq actually. And the people there, not everybody there is in combat all the time, they're just stationed there, and they often don't have internet access. So he gets a game, it's single-player only--you can probably guess what game it is, pretty big-name game. And he can't play it because it insists on connecting to the internet to play it. And he's just like, "That's it. I can buy an Xbox 360 or a PlayStation 3, and I'm not putting up with this. It just works."

So we collected all these things, and over the last couple years we started changing our own policies to fit this. Because it's easy to go and say how the game is and how it should work if you're not going to walk the walk.

So we started saying, "Are these things doable? And if they are doable, are they doable and profitable?" Because we're not doing this because we're nice guys per se, we're doing this because we think it'll make our business stronger, and the industry stronger business-wise.

One of the first things was our copy-protection, not putting CD copy protection on there. And sure enough, that increased our sales, because you'd have a lot of people who'd buy the games, who knew about this because they knew it'd just work--knew that we're not installing anything.

And then we started doing the after-release updates a lot. Every time we do an update to our game and it gets announced somewhere, our sales at retail go up. You know the industry well enough to know that it's unusual for a game to come out in February and make it into the following Christmas season at Wal-Mart and Best Buy--but Sins of a Solar Empire is. And one of the big reasons for that is that every time the sales start to slow, we release an update, a meaningful update that gets people excited again, and the sales go back up at retail. So that was another thing. We thought, "Well, if people start doing that they'll see their sales increase."

And then the last thing was refunds. That was the one we were most nervous about. If I get a game, and it doesn't work, getting a refund. Well what if the people lie? They get the game, they make a copy.

So we started doing this to see what the impact would be. And it turns out, hardly anyone returns their game, but the fact that they know they can if it doesn't work on their computer greatly increases sales.

Shack: So are you thinking about this as more of a public relations initiative?

Brad Wardell: It's not so much a PR value, it's more of a security value. What happens is that a lot of people buy the game for their console because they know it's going to work on their console. They buy it for their PC and it's like, "What is Pixel Shader 2? I don't know what that is." And so their game doesn't work. "But I got a GeForce! It should work, right? GeForce!" "What kind?" "I don't know! An Nvidia one!"

And it doesn't work on their machine, and they go back to the store, and the store goes, "You can't return a game, you opened it." And so they're like, "Screw this, I'll just get a console game."

In the console market, you can't pull this crap.

So what we started to do is, if you send the game back to us, we'll pay you the full price you pay at retail, even though we're going to eat it. So there was a lot of nervous people around here saying, "Gosh, you could end up with 10,000 people sending back this game, which we're eating $20 a unit on it." Because our wholesale price is like $20 on a $40 game. So if someone comes back and we're sending them a check for $39.95, they're just like, "Oh no."

But it turns out people see this policy and hardly anyone ends up returning it, because it does work on most people's machines. It's like a tiny percent that don't. But because they know it will work, we get people buying it who would not otherwise. So then it becomes a question of, are you going to gain more sales because people are confident it's going to work for them, versus the number of sales you lose because people returned it. And so far it's been a no-brainer.

So then I got talking to [Gas Powered Games CEO] Chris Taylor about this last spring, and I said, "Well, you know, Stardock's kind of small." I mean, if I were a gamer and I saw this from Stardock, I'd go, "Well who the hell are they? Aren't they those Galactic Empire guys?" I mean, how presumptuous.

And Chris said, "No, we should totally do this. And if it gets enough attention you might actually get other publishers who might want to get together, and we could create some sort of like--you know, if we made a contract, then you start putting this on your boxes or something, then people can go, 'Oh okay, it adheres to whatever these principles are.'"

So from there we started working together and came up with exact principles. And we said, well, let's make them vague. And if people like them then we can start meeting with other publishers and actually make it into a more legalese thing that spells out--it's almost like a license that people have to agree to. Because obviously who determines if a game is done? What exactly is "done"? What is "meaningful updates"? What do you mean "treating players as criminals"?

So that's what we did. We announced it at PAX. And it's worked out great

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Espada12

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#2 Espada12
Member since 2008 • 23247 Posts
Excellent read, and I'm glad to see so devs are jumping on board with this, they not only highlighted the problems faced by people when gaming with PCs but also highlighted problems with the devs themselves.
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Baranga

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#3 Baranga
Member since 2005 • 14217 Posts

Sins cost less than one million dollars to make, and Stardock made a profit of more than 20 millions.

That's pretty kickass if you ask me!

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Shafftehr

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#4 Shafftehr
Member since 2008 • 2889 Posts
I wonder what Vandalvideo has to say about this article. He's constantly citing this developer as the example of how PC gaming is still great, stil producing excellent content, and unlike houses like Epic and Crytek has a realistic view of what PC gaming is today... But he also constantly tells us that PC gaming is almost as cheap as console gaming, *very* easy, and doesn't have the types of anti-casual hitches that this fellow is outlining are problems for real-world (not Vandal-reality) gamers. Things like the fellow who installed a game and it impacted his ability to burn DVDs, or the fellow in Iraq who couldn't play without internet... Or the types of things that happen to me - problems with firewalls and IP addresses, trying to find updated drivers and hardware compatibility issues... Things which really do happen to real gamer. So I wonder, what was Vandalvideo have to say in the face of this article, where one of his showcase PC developers outright states that the types of things Vandal is so adamant against are real problems for real gamers?
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mr_mozilla

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#5 mr_mozilla
Member since 2006 • 2381 Posts
It would be great if they would get into some sort of agreement with the big publishers like EA and MS about these things. Personally I don't have much issues with things like requirements etc. but some form of "quality control" (use very loosely) could be nice.
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blackdreamhunk

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#6 blackdreamhunk
Member since 2007 • 3880 Posts

It would be great if they would get into some sort of agreement with the big publishers like EA and MS about these things. Personally I don't have much issues with things like requirements etc. but some form of "quality control" (use very loosely) could be nice.mr_mozilla
EA is stepping up qauility games for pc gamers after mass effect. They know that pc gamers like qauility games because it sells better.

As for epic games and crytek it seems both those companies want pc gaming to roll over and die. In fact they have been fighting with other pc game devs lately! They have been pushing for a xbox720 and a ps4 because they know their console are out date and in the hole.

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Espada12

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#7 Espada12
Member since 2008 • 23247 Posts

[QUOTE="mr_mozilla"]It would be great if they would get into some sort of agreement with the big publishers like EA and MS about these things. Personally I don't have much issues with things like requirements etc. but some form of "quality control" (use very loosely) could be nice.blackdreamhunk
EA is stepping up qauility games for pc gamers after mass effect. They know that pc gamers like qauility games because it sells better.

EA's quality of games has generally stepped up imo.

1. Spore

2. Crysis Warhead

3. Red Alert 3

4. Dead Space

5. Mass Effect

6. Warhammer Online

7. Battleforge(thx adrian :P)

EA haters can shove it for now, I know they were bad but the quality of thier games seem to be rising, they are even allowing devs to delay and not rushing, that's pretty good

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Arsuz

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#8 Arsuz
Member since 2003 • 2318 Posts

*Goes out to photoshop a duck in a space environment to make fun of the topit title's silly mistake.

*Realizes that I can't photoshop.

*Leaves thread.

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blackdreamhunk

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#9 blackdreamhunk
Member since 2007 • 3880 Posts

*Goes out to photoshop a duck in a space environment to make fun of the topit title's silly mistake.

*Realizes that I can't photoshop.

*Leaves thread.

Arsuz
lol sorry good catch lol
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AdrianWerner

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#10 AdrianWerner
Member since 2003 • 28441 Posts

[QUOTE="blackdreamhunk"][QUOTE="mr_mozilla"]It would be great if they would get into some sort of agreement with the big publishers like EA and MS about these things. Personally I don't have much issues with things like requirements etc. but some form of "quality control" (use very loosely) could be nice.Espada12

EA is stepping up qauility games for pc gamers after mass effect. They know that pc gamers like qauility games because it sells better.

EA's quality of games has generally stepped up imo.

1. Spore

2. Crysis Warhead

3. Red Alert 3

4. Dead Space

5. Mass Effect

6. Warhammer Online

EA haters can shove it for now, I know they were bad but the quality of thier games seem to be rising, they are even allowing devs to delay and not rushing, that's pretty good

Why is everyone forgetting about Battleforge? :(

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Espada12

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#11 Espada12
Member since 2008 • 23247 Posts
[QUOTE="Espada12"]

[QUOTE="blackdreamhunk"][QUOTE="mr_mozilla"]It would be great if they would get into some sort of agreement with the big publishers like EA and MS about these things. Personally I don't have much issues with things like requirements etc. but some form of "quality control" (use very loosely) could be nice.AdrianWerner

EA is stepping up qauility games for pc gamers after mass effect. They know that pc gamers like qauility games because it sells better.

EA's quality of games has generally stepped up imo.

1. Spore

2. Crysis Warhead

3. Red Alert 3

4. Dead Space

5. Mass Effect

6. Warhammer Online

EA haters can shove it for now, I know they were bad but the quality of thier games seem to be rising, they are even allowing devs to delay and not rushing, that's pretty good

Why is everyone forgetting about Battleforge? :(

I didn't even know that was EA! Lol! Add one more to the list!

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mr_mozilla

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#12 mr_mozilla
Member since 2006 • 2381 Posts

[QUOTE="blackdreamhunk"][QUOTE="mr_mozilla"]It would be great if they would get into some sort of agreement with the big publishers like EA and MS about these things. Personally I don't have much issues with things like requirements etc. but some form of "quality control" (use very loosely) could be nice.Espada12

EA is stepping up qauility games for pc gamers after mass effect. They know that pc gamers like qauility games because it sells better.

EA's quality of games has generally stepped up imo.

1. Spore

2. Crysis Warhead

3. Red Alert 3

4. Dead Space

5. Mass Effect

6. Warhammer Online

EA haters can shove it for now, I know they were bad but the quality of thier games seem to be rising, they are even allowing devs to delay and not rushing, that's pretty good

Tho I wouldn't put RA3 and Dead Space there yet, I agree, they've certainly changed their approach to PC gaming market considerably, and for the better. They even have the free BF Heroes game coming. I hope it all pays them back so they don't change their minds.

Still, I've heard some complaints about their DRM, not that I've had any problems. But the main point in getting EA in the deal would be to give Wardell's dreams a fair nudge towards reality. Insert MS who tried something similar with GFW and mix it all in a big Steamy pot and we could have something great on our hands.

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Espada12

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#13 Espada12
Member since 2008 • 23247 Posts

Tho I wouldn't put RA3 and Dead Space there yet, I agree, they've certainly changed their approach to PC gaming market considerably, and for the better. They even have the free BF Heroes game coming. I hope it all pays them back so they don't change their minds.

.

mr_mozilla

Eh I'm in RA3s beta.. the game is pretty fun and polished just a bit unbalanced though, as for dead space.. man I can't wait! Have you seen the vids for it? They are awesome!

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horrowhip

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#14 horrowhip
Member since 2005 • 5002 Posts

Sins cost less than one million dollars to make, and Stardock made a profit of more than 20 millions.

That's pretty kickass if you ask me!

Baranga

they sell it $20 wholesale(stated in the article).

Take out manufacturing and shipping costs and they make maybe $10 per copy.

$5 million is still amazing profit on a niche game like that.

And that is assuming it is all retail.

I know this is off topic but it sort of relates to this because Stardock sold a LARGE portion of their copies of Sins of a Solar Empire digitally.

That points perfectly to why Digital Distribution is where the industry is headed. Take out the middle man(or even use a digital one... Valve only charges a 5% royalty per copy sold. That is $2.50 on a $50 game) and you can make 2 times as much money on initial revenue. $40 rather than $20. Then, the production costs go down as well with no need to manufacture and no need to ship. So, in the end, you end up spending a 1 time server fee that spread out over 100,000 games is only equivilant to like $1 per copy, and you make 4 times as much profit.

The industry will lean towards DD in the future not because it is better or more convenient per-se, but because economically it is more profitable.

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AdrianWerner

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#15 AdrianWerner
Member since 2003 • 28441 Posts

$5 million is still amazing profit on a niche game like that.

horrowhip
ermm...they made 4mln on DD alone and retail profit isn't that far behind
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mr_mozilla

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#16 mr_mozilla
Member since 2006 • 2381 Posts
[QUOTE="mr_mozilla"]

Tho I wouldn't put RA3 and Dead Space there yet, I agree, they've certainly changed their approach to PC gaming market considerably, and for the better. They even have the free BF Heroes game coming. I hope it all pays them back so they don't change their minds.

.

Espada12

Eh I'm in RA3s beta.. the game is pretty fun and polished just a bit unbalanced though, as for dead space.. man I can't wait! Have you seen the vids for it? They are awesome!

That's good to hear about RA3. Dead Space I know nothing about other than that it's some multiplat scifi FPS which is propably why haven't bothered to look into it.
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horrowhip

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#17 horrowhip
Member since 2005 • 5002 Posts
[QUOTE="horrowhip"]

$5 million is still amazing profit on a niche game like that.

AdrianWerner

ermm...they made 4mln on DD alone and retail profit isn't that far behind

umm...

Like, I said, I was ignoring the digital.

I was posting based on the assumption all were retail.

$20 wholesale - manufacturing and shipping = $10-12 per copy retail.

Digital, the profit is nearly $40.

next time read my entire post before you jump on me.

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Shafftehr

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#18 Shafftehr
Member since 2008 • 2889 Posts

$20 wholesale - manufacturing and shipping = $10-12 per copy retail.

horrowhip


Just curious, where are you getting your numbers?
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tfpcgmr

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#19 tfpcgmr
Member since 2008 • 164 Posts

I wonder what Vandalvideo has to say about this article. He's constantly citing this developer as the example of how PC gaming is still great, stil producing excellent content, and unlike houses like Epic and Crytek has a realistic view of what PC gaming is today... But he also constantly tells us that PC gaming is almost as cheap as console gaming, *very* easy, and doesn't have the types of anti-casual hitches that this fellow is outlining are problems for real-world (not Vandal-reality) gamers. Things like the fellow who installed a game and it impacted his ability to burn DVDs, or the fellow in Iraq who couldn't play without internet... Or the types of things that happen to me - problems with firewalls and IP addresses, trying to find updated drivers and hardware compatibility issues... Things which really do happen to real gamer. So I wonder, what was Vandalvideo have to say in the face of this article, where one of his showcase PC developers outright states that the types of things Vandal is so adamant against are real problems for real gamers?Shafftehr

I smell a big big fight.

Let the argue begin.

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AdrianWerner

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#20 AdrianWerner
Member since 2003 • 28441 Posts
[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"][QUOTE="horrowhip"]

$5 million is still amazing profit on a niche game like that.

horrowhip

ermm...they made 4mln on DD alone and retail profit isn't that far behind

umm...

Like, I said, I was ignoring the digital.

I was posting based on the assumption all were retail.

$20 wholesale - manufacturing and shipping = $10-12 per copy retail.

Digital, the profit is nearly $40.

next time read my entire post before you jump on me.

I was just filling the blanks, next time do not jump on me just because you were too lazy to check all the details and decided to ignore them instead of simply checking them.
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Shafftehr

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#21 Shafftehr
Member since 2008 • 2889 Posts

I smell a big big fight.

Let the argue begin.

tfpcgmr


Meh, I remember a particular argument we had about the ease of PC gaming where I was bringing up points like that no-DVD burn thing and he was outright telling me that was a stupid example to bring up. Now one of his favorite PC developers openly admits that things like this are problems. I'm curious... But I have a pretty good idea concerning which way he's going to backtrack.
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horrowhip

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#22 horrowhip
Member since 2005 • 5002 Posts
[QUOTE="horrowhip"]

$20 wholesale - manufacturing and shipping = $10-12 per copy retail.

Shafftehr



Just curious, where are you getting your numbers?

$20 wholesale was mentioned in the article(read the whole thing... it is very interesting).

As for manufacturing and shipping costs.

Manufacturing works on a scale of profitability to costs...

Initially, costs are high per copy.

You have the cost of buying/renting a manufacturing plant. Plus materials costs, and other costs related to actually making the disks/packaging/manuals(all of which are manufactured seperately). Throw in the costs of all the people working at that factory and you are having relatively high costs. Now, depending on the maximum output of the factory, you either waste much of that work and thus have higher cost per copy, or you produce an excess of copies which may or may not sell.

So, probably total costs over 500,000 copies is probably in the $3-5 per copy range for manufacturing.

Shipping is then also fairly high. Shipping around the world, even en-mass isn't cheap. Sure, shipping to places nearby may be cheap, but that gets outweighed by costs of shipping a few copies around the world. Costs per-copy are probably $3-4 per copy.

So maybe, profits are actually most likely $11-14 per copy.

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horrowhip

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#23 horrowhip
Member since 2005 • 5002 Posts
[QUOTE="horrowhip"][QUOTE="AdrianWerner"][QUOTE="horrowhip"]

$5 million is still amazing profit on a niche game like that.

AdrianWerner

ermm...they made 4mln on DD alone and retail profit isn't that far behind

umm...

Like, I said, I was ignoring the digital.

I was posting based on the assumption all were retail.

$20 wholesale - manufacturing and shipping = $10-12 per copy retail.

Digital, the profit is nearly $40.

next time read my entire post before you jump on me.

I was just filling the blanks, next time do not jump on me just because you were too lazy to check all the details and decided to ignore them instead of simply checking them.

fair enough. But I was just giving a rough estimate. I even specifically said that I was only assuming retail and that I knew the game had sold a lot Digital. My numbers were more meant to give a general idea and point out that it was much less than the $20 million previously mentioned.

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mr_mozilla

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#24 mr_mozilla
Member since 2006 • 2381 Posts
[QUOTE="tfpcgmr"]

I smell a big big fight.

Let the argue begin.

Shafftehr



Meh, I remember a particular argument we had about the ease of PC gaming where I was bringing up points like that no-DVD burn thing and he was outright telling me that was a stupid example to bring up. Now one of his favorite PC developers openly admits that things like this are problems. I'm curious... But I have a pretty good idea concerning which way he's going to backtrack.

Now I'm not saying these things aren't a problem. But to be fair most people don't have their DVD burner messed up even by SF or other anomalies like that, it's the "fear" of that happening that drives away customers, I think that's what Werdell was going for. Like he said about the refund option, not many people actually ended up returning the games, but knowing that they could made it easier for them to buy the game.