INSTALL BASE doesn't MATTER!!!

I just feel like ranting about this, becaue this irritates me.

I don't care how many people own a 360 compared to a PS3, that does not mean sales are going to be better on the 360 than the PS3.

I just got done arguing with some guy about MGS4 going 360, and said it will sell more on the 360 than PS3 because it has bigger user base. Reality check people, that doesn't matter. I gurantee most people out there will not buy a game on 3 or more disks for 360. I game that is going to be optimized to crap for 360 because it was built for the PS3 system.... same thing with Madden. Madden sold so many more copies on 360 because it was built for 360, and the porting job to PS3 was god awful. Even if the 360 has a bigger userbase at this time, that does not mean it will sell more on that unit. I'm sorry, it just won't

What proof is there that MGS4 would be 3 discs?

As for installed base, its very important, to publishers, to the system makers, and to business people. If you could sell your product to a potential audience of 4 million or to one that is 14 million, which would you choose?

What proof is there that MGS4 would be 3 discs?

As for installed base, its very important, to publishers, to the system makers, and to business people. If you could sell your product to a potential audience of 4 million or to one that is 14 million, which would you choose?

SpruceCaboose

hahaha even if you have that 14 million users for that system, about 800,000 will buy the game, and realize it's 10x better for the system, it was made for...... and in the long run, the company will be losin' more money just portin' it over then making it like they thought they would with your way of thinking. We'll see what happens with UT3... perfect example, we will see what happens there. Gurantee that game sells more on PS3 than 360.

I think there's a missconception...

the userbase is the amount of people that has a console...

PS2 has a big userbase

PS3 doesn't.

hahaha even if you have that 14 million users for that system, about 800,000 will buy the game, and realize it's 10x better for the system, it was made for...... and in the long run, the company will be losin' more money just portin' it over then making it like they thought they would with your way of thinking. We'll see what happens with UT3... perfect example, we will see what happens there. Gurantee that game sells more on PS3 than 360.Gordon_Slaveman

What proof is there that MGS4 would be 3 discs?

As for installed base, its very important, to publishers, to the system makers, and to business people. If you could sell your product to a potential audience of 4 million or to one that is 14 million, which would you choose?

SpruceCaboose

Fanbase does play a part but it depends on how the game turns out also,basing on how MGS2 turned out on Xbox i wouldn't chance buying a MGS game on Xbox360 just because they are made for a playstation brand and work best on playstation.

[QUOTE="Gordon_Slaveman"]hahaha even if you have that 14 million users for that system, about 800,000 will buy the game, and realize it's 10x better for the system, it was made for...... and in the long run, the company will be losin' more money just portin' it over then making it like they thought they would with your way of thinking. We'll see what happens with UT3... perfect example, we will see what happens there. Gurantee that game sells more on PS3 than 360.Vandalvideo

MGS2 sold crap on Xbox mate.... that was a huge bust for Konami.... hence how they didn't put MGS3 on xbox...

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Gordon_Slaveman"]hahaha even if you have that 14 million users for that system, about 800,000 will buy the game, and realize it's 10x better for the system, it was made for...... and in the long run, the company will be losin' more money just portin' it over then making it like they thought they would with your way of thinking. We'll see what happens with UT3... perfect example, we will see what happens there. Gurantee that game sells more on PS3 than 360.Gordon_Slaveman

MGS2 sold crap on Xbox mate.... that was a huge bust for Konami.... hence how they didn't put MGS3 on xbox...

[QUOTE="SpruceCaboose"]

What proof is there that MGS4 would be 3 discs?

As for installed base, its very important, to publishers, to the system makers, and to business people. If you could sell your product to a potential audience of 4 million or to one that is 14 million, which would you choose?

Gordon_Slaveman

hahaha even if you have that 14 million users for that system, about 800,000 will buy the game, and realize it's 10x better for the system, it was made for...... and in the long run, the company will be losin' more money just portin' it over then making it like they thought they would with your way of thinking. We'll see what happens with UT3... perfect example, we will see what happens there. Gurantee that game sells more on PS3 than 360.

The general gamer does not read reviews, they do not compare the games much, and they certainly don't care if one game is running at 30 FPS or 60 FPS.

And its not about what system a game was made for. It matters what systems the game is available on. If installed based didn't matter, why did GTA go to Xbox? Why has Assassin's Creed and DMC gone multiplatform?

Its about having more potential customers. Don't have yourself a little fit or anything over it, but strictly from a business POV, having more customers to sell to is a good thing, so installed base is very important.
Another point, if installed base is so unimportant, why are most major 3rd party developers now falling all over themselves to make games for the Wii? Its not because they like the system any more than the others, but they will have a huge audience to sell their games to.

If you try and say sales or install base (same thing) is unimportant, you must not remember the huge software advantage the PS2 enjoyed because of its huge installed base.

Install base is everything. I'm sorry but i have to say this... you fail.

PS2 had way more games than any other console? Why? Because of the install base. A developer (or rather a publisher) will ALWAYS want to make their games on the machine with more owners.

More consoles out there = more sales = bigger return = more interest from game makers. In other words, the user-base is one of the biggest factors in the quality of games you get, up there with how difficult it is to develop for that system and the power it has to be taken advantage of.

Sorry.

[QUOTE="Gordon_Slaveman"][QUOTE="SpruceCaboose"]

What proof is there that MGS4 would be 3 discs?

As for installed base, its very important, to publishers, to the system makers, and to business people. If you could sell your product to a potential audience of 4 million or to one that is 14 million, which would you choose?

SpruceCaboose

hahaha even if you have that 14 million users for that system, about 800,000 will buy the game, and realize it's 10x better for the system, it was made for...... and in the long run, the company will be losin' more money just portin' it over then making it like they thought they would with your way of thinking. We'll see what happens with UT3... perfect example, we will see what happens there. Gurantee that game sells more on PS3 than 360.

The general gamer does not read reviews, they do not compare the games much, and they certainly don't care if one game is running at 30 FPS or 60 FPS.

And its not about what system a game was made for. It matters what systems the game is available on. If installed based didn't matter, why did GTA go to Xbox? Why has Assassin's Creed and DMC gone multiplatform?

Its about having more potential customers. Don't have yourself a little fit or anything over it, but strictly from a business POV, having more customers to sell to is a good thing, so installed base is very important.
Another point, if installed base is so unimportant, why are most major 3rd party developers now falling all over themselves to make games for the Wii? Its not because they like the system any more than the others, but they will have a huge audience to sell their games to.

If you try and say sales or install base (same thing) is unimportant, you must not remember the huge software advantage the PS2 enjoyed because of its huge installed base.

hahahahaha, people don't read reviews??? people don't care about framerates?? hahahahaha, that's why everyone is now second guessing Warhawk, and Lair after it was so hyped a couple of months ago... and that's why everyone and PS3 fanboys are pissed about Madden 08. Because madden 08 was much better on 360, with the full 60 fps... and foxhound, if that was the case, why is MGS4 exclusive to PS3, and why is UT3, and Haze exclusive to PS3??(well ut3 is time exclusive[console wise])

Install base does matter because if only around half of 360 owners pick up game X, 100% of PS3 owners have to pick up game X for it to sell the same on both systems. That does, whether or not you agree with it, send a message to game developers.jdp0412

that makes no sense, because not even 50% of the 360 user base will pick up MGS4, and PS3 userbase will......

hahahahaha, people don't read reviews??? people don't care about framerates?? hahahahaha, that's why everyone is now second guessing Warhawk, and Lair after it was so hyped a couple of months ago... and that's why everyone and PS3 fanboys are pissed about Madden 08. Because madden 08 was much better on 360, with the full 60 fps... and foxhound, if that was the case, why is MGS4 exclusive to PS3, and why is UT3, and Haze exclusive to PS3??(well ut3 is time exclusive[console wise])Gordon_Slaveman

I would say you partially have a point but it has much more effect the other way around.

The 360s user base is concentrated amongst a very particular demographic.

15- 35 males from English speaking Western Nations. This means that publishers know that any game targetted at that group will sell well on the system. Which means if you lie within that group most games for the 360 will be targetted at you. Not only that but that particular target group buys more games per head than any other group.

The PS3 on the other hand has a very split user base. Meaning when Madden and the latest FPS comes out on it. At least 50% of PS3 owners never had any interest in it to start with. There are of course a few titles that cross multiple grouos interests. e.g Final Fantasy and GT5.

This is also why the Wii despite having the largest userbase is actually seeing the least games that most people on this forum are interested in. The largest demographic of the Wii userbase seems to be interested in the smaller minigame experience hence that is the most targted genre by developers.

[QUOTE="jdp0412"]Install base does matter because if only around half of 360 owners pick up game X, 100% of PS3 owners have to pick up game X for it to sell the same on both systems. That does, whether or not you agree with it, send a message to game developers.Gordon_Slaveman

that makes no sense, because not even 50% of the 360 user base will pick up MGS4, and PS3 userbase will......

I didn't even give a specific example, you are the one that plugged in MGS. Also, you can not say 50% of the 360 user base will notpick it up. While I agree that is unlikely, I'm sure stranger things have happened.

hahahahaha, people don't read reviews??? people don't care about framerates?? hahahahaha, that's why everyone is now second guessing Warhawk, and Lair after it was so hyped a couple of months ago... and that's why everyone and PS3 fanboys are pissed about Madden 08. Because madden 08 was much better on 360, with the full 60 fps... and foxhound, if that was the case, why is MGS4 exclusive to PS3, and why is UT3, and Haze exclusive to PS3??(well ut3 is time exclusive[console wise])

Gordon_Slaveman

Reading FTW! I said the general (average) gamer. No, the minority of gamers read reviews. Its very true. And the minority of gamers care about the differences in framerate.

If you use GameSpot SWs as a basis for how the real gaming world (and gamers) react, you are in for a rude awakening from reality.

Most gamers outside forums would not know much about Lair or Warhawk. Most would not know what FPS mean. Most would not know what HDR lighting is. We are the minority, not the majority.

Install base is one of the most important deciding factors that developers have when they choose to make a game exclusive or multiplat. A large install base brings sales and most developers these days are in the industry to make money, and large install bases will guarantee them more money.

By the time MGS4 comes out, the PS3 will have a large enough userbase in order for it to sell extremely well.foxhound_fox

While if it was released on Xbox360 by the time it comes out we will have no idea how the fanbases will stand then and also MGS4 is a game bought by mainly hardcore fans which is a huge difference complared to say Madden which sales is mainly driven by casual.Even if it came out for Xbox360 i still think it would sell more on PS3 as chances are based on the past MGS is horibly done on Xbox and the fact MGS4 has a higher Hardcore fanbase then the regular games out therethat will understand that,but you will still see the few causal randomly buying it for whatever system they got.Theres just a number of factors you gotta consider and fanbase will play some part in it but not as big as a casual game.

Most gamers outside forums would not know much about Lair or Warhawk. Most would not know what FPS mean. Most would not know what HDR lighting is. We are the minority, not the majority.

SpruceCaboose

Right but we are also the leaders. We are the ones who tell the people who don't pay much attention what to buy. That's why we get so much attention despite our relatively tiny size.

[QUOTE="SpruceCaboose"]

Most gamers outside forums would not know much about Lair or Warhawk. Most would not know what FPS mean. Most would not know what HDR lighting is. We are the minority, not the majority.

cakeorrdeath

Right but we are also the leaders. We are the ones who tell the people who don't pay much attention what to buy. That's why we get so much attention despite our relatively tiny size.

We also spend much more money than the average gamer. We are still targeted by most companies, but there is a change in the air, and I am not sure its a good one for "our kind".

We also spend much more money than the average gamer. We are still targeted by most companies, but there is a change in the air, and I am not sure its a good one for "our kind".

SpruceCaboose

I agree there is a change mainly brough about by the Wii and the DS. But do you honestly see less games being targetted at us? Are you dissapointed with the line up of games coming out in the next 6 months?

It's not like there is a finite amount of resources that will be spent on games. Targetting us was profitable in the past and that isn't changing.

[QUOTE="SpruceCaboose"]

We also spend much more money than the average gamer. We are still targeted by most companies, but there is a change in the air, and I am not sure its a good one for "our kind".

cakeorrdeath

I agree there is a change mainly brough about by the Wii and the DS. But do you honestly see less games being targetted at us? Are you dissapointed with the line up of games coming out in the next 6 months?

It's not like there is a finite amount of resources that will be spent on games. Targetting us was profitable in the past and that isn't changing.

True, but if the Wii continues to sell systems with its decided lack of "hardcore" games, will companies like MS and Sony see the $$$ and follow in the footsteps to a more mass-market, easy to pick up and play approach and leave hardcore gamers with only the PC, or will there be a place for hardcore gamers at the console table come next gen? Its something I question, and its not a good thought.

I guess we will see in the next year how more hardcore games fare on the Wii, and what affect that has on the gaming landscape, but I am a bit worried.

Well it matters, but despite what many people will tell you its never the whole story. There's lots of factors that go into how much a particular game sells on a particular platform.Teufelhuhn

Agreed. You could have a system that sells 100 million units and one that sells 20 million. But if that 100 million un its buys mostly Shooters and the 20 million buys mostly platformers and you want to release a Platformer, that 20 million is the best way to go.

We also spend much more money than the average gamer. We are still targeted by most companies, but there is a change in the air, and I am not sure its a good one for "our kind".

SpruceCaboose

Pfft our games were never the most important to companies.

This is the best selling genre's of the top 100 games of last year. Sports and Licenses TRIPLES the amount of shooters and RPG's. Did you notice the amount of those genres drain. I know this isn't the list of the best selling genres of all of gaming last year, but the point of your posts seem to be that if devs want big sales they come to us. Did I also mention it is much cheaper to make these game genres?

True, but if the Wii continues to sell systems with its decided lack of "hardcore" games, will companies like MS and Sony see the $$$ and follow in the footsteps to a more mass-market, easy to pick up and play approach and leave hardcore gamers with only the PC, or will there be a place for hardcore gamers at the console table come next gen? Its something I question, and its not a good thought.

I guess we will see in the next year how more hardcore games fare on the Wii, and what affect that has on the gaming landscape, but I am a bit worried.

SpruceCaboose

What kind of logic is that? So the hardcore gamer base is just going to dissappear? Do you know how much more money EA will make with it's EA Sports franchises then it will with Crysis? Do you know how much more money THQ made with Hannah Monatana then with Company of Heroes? They didn't/won't sell NEARLY as well. And apparently the third party minigames and pick up and play are selling like crap too with not one breaking 100,000. Also then explain to me why the DS still has plenty of "hardcore" gamer games while having many casual games? Heck the DS has more gamer focased third party games coming out then the PSP. The answer is easy, no offense but it seems that you don't know how business works. Companies do what ever they can to make money. If a game looks to make them money they will publish it, if a game is similar to another game they will hold it off and publish a game unsimilar to it. If you still have uncertainies then click on my sig. *don't post though*. If your logic is correct then why would Microsoft have ever released the Xbox? Also, explain to me how these console shooters, actually console games are "hardcore"? I'd really love to know.

True, but if the Wii continues to sell systems with its decided lack of "hardcore" games, will companies like MS and Sony see the $$$ and follow in the footsteps to a more mass-market, easy to pick up and play approach and leave hardcore gamers with only the PC, or will there be a place for hardcore gamers at the console table come next gen? Its something I question, and its not a good thought.

I guess we will see in the next year how more hardcore games fare on the Wii, and what affect that has on the gaming landscape, but I am a bit worried.

SpruceCaboose

I guaruntee, if 360 and PS3 somehow decided to abandon the hardcore, (admittedly a little like Wii has done) a new system would pop up almost overnight to cater for us. We have money we want to spend and someone is guaranteed to want it.

The reason the Wii has moved away was because the space was clearly to crowded and not enough people were interested in what nintendo had to offer anymore.

Wii has the biggest userbase, why aren' we seen a massive torrent to tittles to the Wii?

It can be used to play 'hardcore games' like the other 2. Why not then? Because the game would need to be greatly downgraded. Same with Ps3 games, if developers develop games with enough content to use the entire blu-ray, porting to 360 would require loads od discs or content stripping resulting in a severly downgraded game. 360 games ported to Ps3 only get a slight graphical downgrande however.

Install base matters, but Wii isn't competeing with Ps3 and 360, period. Besides install base, hardware differences also matter a lot.

Wii has the biggest userbase, why aren' we seen a massive torrent to tittle to the Wii? lordxymor

We are, Wii has more games released per month than the other two. The difference is you are not interested in them.

Wii has the biggest userbase, why aren' we seen a massive torrent to tittles to the Wii? lordxymor

Wii are.

Japanese publishers switch to Wii.

EA scaling back PS3/360 development switching to Wii instead.

See?

People just push me over the edge with this crap, and i can't take it anymore. How stupid can i be?!?! Even think about how many more systems the PS3 has to sell by the time MGS4 even comes out?!?!?!?!?! HOLIDAY SEASON!?!?! also think about the fact that PS3 has like 46 games coming out before the year ends?? Also MGS4 is a japenese game, and last i checked ps3 was outselling 360 over there what 9:1??? o yea.... hmmmmm I think history is repeating itself........hmmmGordon_Slaveman

how big was the userbase of xbox compare to the userbase of ps2 and was it a simulatinous release? does are the question you need to ask yourself and think how well did the game do on xbox.

I guaruntee, if 360 and PS3 somehow decided to abandon the hardcore, (admittedly a little like Wii has done) a new system would pop up almost overnight to cater for us. We have money we want to spend and someone is guaranteed to want it.

The reason the Wii has moved away was because the space was clearly to crowded and not enough people were interested in what nintendo had to offer anymore.

cakeorrdeath

Ok, I can agree to that. Thank you. This thread actually proved to provide me with a good and well thought out discussion. I like it!

[QUOTE="lordxymor"]Wii has the biggest userbase, why aren' we seen a massive torrent to tittle to the Wii? cakeorrdeath

We are, Wii has more games released per month than the other two. The difference is you are not interested in them.

By titles I ment estabilished and know franchises from 3rd parties.

[QUOTE="cakeorrdeath"]

[QUOTE="lordxymor"]Wii has the biggest userbase, why aren' we seen a massive torrent to tittle to the Wii? lordxymor

We are, Wii has more games released per month than the other two. The difference is you are not interested in them.

By titles I ment estabilished and know franchises from 3rd parties.

The Wii is more geared to new games and experieces. Existing titles generally appeal to the hardcore set, and that would be the 360/PS3, which is why most developers are crafting new IPs for the Wii.

[QUOTE="cakeorrdeath"]

[QUOTE="lordxymor"]Wii has the biggest userbase, why aren' we seen a massive torrent to tittle to the Wii? lordxymor

We are, Wii has more games released per month than the other two. The difference is you are not interested in them.

By titles I ment estabilished and know franchises from 3rd parties.

Why do only they count?

Basically you mean why does a system with more users in total, but less users in your demographic have less games targetted at you.

That's pretty obvious.

[QUOTE="lordxymor"][QUOTE="cakeorrdeath"]

[QUOTE="lordxymor"]Wii has the biggest userbase, why aren' we seen a massive torrent to tittle to the Wii? cakeorrdeath

We are, Wii has more games released per month than the other two. The difference is you are not interested in them.

Why do only they count?

Basically you mean why does a system with more users in total, but less users in your demographic have less games targetted at you.

That's pretty obvious.

They aren't all what matters, but a great part, yes.

I like rpgs and most rps I play are in fact new IPs, but I also like classic franchises a great deal, and 3rd partys refuse to port those to Wii, only offering spin-offs.

Install base does matter becaues a system with the most customers will always get the most games. LuvGaming

More factors are involved than that. Such as attatch rate, development costs, dominance of first party, price, cost and ease of porting.

[QUOTE="LuvGaming"]Install base does matter becaues a system with the most customers will always get the most games. cakeorrdeath

More factors are involved than that. Such as attatch rate, development costs, dominance of first party, price, cost and ease of porting.

Part of your post is true. The version of a game which is most optimized for a system will sell better (RE4 on GC vs. RE4 on PS2, even though PS2 eventually ended up passing the GC version) in most cases. People will buy the better version. People are even buying the version on the Wii still, because that's the best version. Sadly, though, the game is simply too old to catch up with the 1.5+ million that the PS2 and GC versions sold.

However, install base is VERY important for other things, such as overall developer support.

To a certain extent he's right.

PS2 had a 50,60,70 million lead over the Xbox during the later stages of last gen, and yet a lot of games were selling fairly equally on Xbox/PS2. PS2 did lead obviously but not by that much. Some games that were made for Xbox and later had a weak PS2 port actually sold better on Xbox.

That's why Xbox got support and Gamecube didn't. They were fairly close in the early days for userbases, but third party games sold great on Xbox but not so much on GC.

Still, a lot of times if developers have to pick a system to start on they will play it safe and choose the one with the largest userbase.

I just feel like ranting about this, becaue this irritates me.

I don't care how many people own a 360 compared to a PS3, that does not mean sales are going to be better on the 360 than the PS3.

I just got done arguing with some guy about MGS4 going 360, and said it will sell more on the 360 than PS3 because it has bigger user base. Reality check people, that doesn't matter. I gurantee most people out there will not buy a game on 3 or more disks for 360. I game that is going to be optimized to crap for 360 because it was built for the PS3 system.... same thing with Madden. Madden sold so many more copies on 360 because it was built for 360, and the porting job to PS3 was god awful. Even if the 360 has a bigger userbase at this time, that does not mean it will sell more on that unit. I'm sorry, it just won't

Gordon_Slaveman

Hmm...Last gen the installed user base meant everything to the cows. That was their only defense against lems. Now that the PS3 is lagging behind, and not selling well at all, it all of a sudden means nothing?

Typical cow.