Is level scaling good or bad?

I know most people hate level scaling, but there are pros and cons to having it or not.

Level scaling provides provides a constant challenge throughout the game, and can make the same dungeon a slightly different experience. At the same time, leveling up doesn't mean as much compared to not having it.

So whats your opinion on level scaling?

No level scaling ever. It always turns out meh. Please just make a really scalable difficulty that I can apply at anytime. Provide rewards for higher difficulty. Basically look at The World Ends With You.

I remember it being really annoying in Oblivion. If I'm level 60 with badass armor/weapons/magic, it shouldn't be an epic struggle for me to take down a sewer rat.

It is no point with lv scaling, better take out the lv system from the game and have no lv´s at all. Kinda same thing...

i really don't know if i care that much one way or the other.

i think it solves some problems for devs like not having to block off part of the map and i like to explore so if lvl scaling is the price i pay to have the entire game at my fingertips from the start then i'm ok with it.

in oblivion lvl scaling or not you could make the game as hard as you wanted it to be with the slider so it's no big deal as long as they do it that way.

I remember it being really annoying in Oblivion. If I'm level 60 with badass armor/weapons/magic, it shouldn't be an epic struggle for me to take down a sewer rat.

Teufelhuhn

in places where there were rats they swapped out with goblins or the red robe cult guys or the oblivion guards or whatever.

I know most people hate level scaling, but there are pros and cons to having it or not.

Level scaling provides provides a constant challenge throughout the game, and can make the same dungeon a slightly different experience. At the same time, leveling up doesn't mean as much compared to not having it.

So whats your opinion on level scaling?

Scythes777

Dont like it at all, i love exploring and getting my ass handed to me when i accidentally enter a much higher level zone. I also enjoy destroying mobs that are multiple levels lower than me if they cross my path. Both these examples are incredibly important to illustrate progression in a game.

Oblivion is a terrible offender of level scaling, you reach level 20 and all of a sudden the same bandits you ran across outside Imperial City that were wearing leather scraps and giving you a hard time are still giving you a hard time but now they're wearing daedric armor.

I still loved Oblivion (as i did Morrowind and every other TES) and got a good 300 hours out of it (rough estimate) but the game could've been so much better without that horrid level scaling. And i'm sure there were mods for the PC version to remove it, but my experience was only on the 360 version.

Anyway, for single player rpgs etc. a difficulty slider is more than enough for people who want to keep the game challenging.

[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

I remember it being really annoying in Oblivion. If I'm level 60 with badass armor/weapons/magic, it shouldn't be an epic struggle for me to take down a sewer rat.

Riverwolf007

in places where there were rats they swapped out with goblins or the red robe cult guys or the oblivion guards or whatever.

I don't like it, petty bandits shouldn't be running around with high end equipment.

It's really only used to save developers work, because they don't have to think on how to handle difficulty.

[QUOTE="Riverwolf007"]

[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

I remember it being really annoying in Oblivion. If I'm level 60 with badass armor/weapons/magic, it shouldn't be an epic struggle for me to take down a sewer rat.

Teufelhuhn

in places where there were rats they swapped out with goblins or the red robe cult guys or the oblivion guards or whatever.

it didn't hurt gameplay but as an old paper and pencil d&d gm i used to always think about a dungeons "ecology" and if it made sense for the things that were in there to actually be in there and have a reason to be there and a way to live.

silly stuff to bug me but i have to admit it does.

In certain games, yes. In some games you can't choose a difficulty and if you die 30 times in one level I wish there would be a handicap, but then I would loose points, I think Vanquish does something like that.

Depends on the implementation I guess. Very things are always good or bad.

Ideally, I'd like to see more games utilize a healthy combo. As already mentioned, it's pretty stupid to end up having to fight off super deadly killer rabbits but destroying entire areas by picking my nose sometimes leaves me a bit dead inside.

If a game is very linear, I can't really think of any reason to have level scaling. LO was pretty smart with it's levelling restriction in that way.

Edit: Oblivion is a huge offender. Random bandits should'nt be running around in glass armour. They would'nt be bandits if they could afford gear like that.

Something I kinda liked about it is that you could essentially explore almost everything in Oblivion from really early in the game. Having random areas where monsters and people are alot stronger than you provides difficulty spikes and alot of unfair trial and error.

[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

I remember it being really annoying in Oblivion. If I'm level 60 with badass armor/weapons/magic, it shouldn't be an epic struggle for me to take down a sewer rat.

Riverwolf007

in places where there were rats they swapped out with goblins or the red robe cult guys or the oblivion guards or whatever.

I haven't seen level scaling been done "well"; it seems to just nullify the entire point of leveling in the first place. I guess it's more "adding skill points" with a way to keep track in Oblivion, but it was still lame.

Never liked level scaling, period. Defeats the purpose of leveling up...

I remember it being really annoying in Oblivion. If I'm level 60 with badass armor/weapons/magic, it shouldn't be an epic struggle for me to take down a sewer rat.

Teufelhuhn

Right on point. Thats the reason I hated oblivion. The leveling system was just dumb. Its pointless to have a leveling system if you can become a uber high level and still struggle with a monster that was at the very start of the game.

Pros: You can really go anywhere in an open world game.

Cons: You end up having "epic" battles with enemies that should just be grind material. Common bandits eventually end up having better equipment than the legendary one you got in a quest some levels ago.

I hate level scaling. The argument that it provides challenge is stupid. If you want challenge, go somewhere with creatures 10 levels higher than you.

Level scaling defeats the entire purpose of levelling up. The whole point is that your character is supposed to get progressively more powerful and be able to combat more powerful enemies, where weaker ones provided less and less of a challenge to the point where... well they became pointless to fight at all.

It's much better to make the world, shall we say region levelled, where some regions don't necessarily stop you from entering, but through exploration the player discovers that the challenges are too much and that they should return after they levelled up sifficiently to be able to tackle the obstacles found in that region.

So basically encountering enemies that are more powerful only when you're ready to take them on, and past enemies you'll see that no longer pose a threat o you. The other effect being that when at one time they provided 200 XP for killing, now only give out 5 XP by the adjusted difficulty curve, that risk to reward calculation.

This way you get that sense of progression, and you feel more rewarded for building up, from fighting wolves, then armored orcs, to finally being able to challenge that dragon which 10 levels ago was far too imposing to even look at.

Pros: You can really go anywhere in an open world game.

Cons: You end up having "epic" battles with enemies that should just be grind material. Common bandits eventually end up having better equipment than the legendary one you got in a quest some levels ago.

glez13

imo that con outweighs the pro.

I've never enjoyed level scaling in my games...EVER. But I would like to see it put to at least one good use. I always hate it in RPGs when I go through a game, get every awesome weapon, level everything to max, beat all secret dungeons, enemies, bosses, etc... only to get to the last boss and its a complete push over.

I wish they could just scale the final boss to be a tough battle no matter how bad ass you are when you get there.

Level scaling did work in KOTOR.

I see a few complaints that it makes leveling pointless. I disagree with that. It makes how you build your character more important. In a game like Oblivion, if you build a really crappy character (such as choosing easy to level skills for your primary skills so you level up quickly without actually improving your combat skills), leveling becomes a punishment, as leveled monsters rapidly outpower you. If you build your character well, you fairly quickly reach a point where you can kill anything you run into in one swing, despite the monsters being leveled. I guess if you build your character pretty average, then leveling up becomes a moot point, as things stay pretty much the same.

I see a few complaints that it makes leveling pointless. I disagree with that. It makes how you build your character more important. In a game like Oblivion, if you build a really crappy character (such as choosing easy to level skills for your primary skills so you level up quickly without actually improving your combat skills), leveling becomes a punishment, as leveled monsters rapidly outpower you. If you build your character well, you fairly quickly reach a point where you can kill anything you run into in one swing, despite the monsters being leveled. I guess if you build your character pretty average, then leveling up becomes a moot point, as things stay pretty much the same.

ianuilliam

To be honest, Oblivion's leveling system was completely broken in that it pretty much punished people for actually trying to roleplay.

Crazy thought that is - roleplaying in a RPG!

Besides, like Teuf said earlier, I had pretty strong characters getting steam rolled by bears. One hit would take out my stealthy toons in one hit, and reduced my battlemage toon to pulps in no more than 3. But then again, I played with the slider to the far right - something else Oblivion was keen to punish players for.

It is awful and there is no two ways about it :P.

I like it, but i can play games without it...

I remember it being really annoying in Oblivion. If I'm level 60 with badass armor/weapons/magic, it shouldn't be an epic struggle for me to take down a sewer rat.

Teufelhuhn

Without any challenge a game becomes boring quickly.

That doesn't mean I want Oblivion level scaling though. Taking it out kind of defeats the open world aspect of the game though. It's a hard balance that oblivion did not do great. Fallout 3 did it much better.

It is no point with lv scaling, better take out the lv system from the game and have no lv´s at all. Kinda same thing...

aroxx_ab

I agree with that guy, if the enemies fit you level, what's the point of them anyway? Sure they did a pretty solid job in let's say FF8 where you get stronger spells from the enemies, but still, I prefer either one difficulity as it's supposed to be or the possibility to change it down but at the cost of something (like not seeing a hidden ending or something like that).

[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

I remember it being really annoying in Oblivion. If I'm level 60 with badass armor/weapons/magic, it shouldn't be an epic struggle for me to take down a sewer rat.

in places where there were rats they swapped out with goblins or the red robe cult guys or the oblivion guards or whatever.

Yeah it was the PC version. And I wasn't really serious about there being deadly sewer rats at level 60, that's just the sort of impression I was left with afterwards. I know I was definitely killed by a higher-level bear or mountain lion at some point, and it made me sad. :(

Teufelhuhn

But a big ass bear would indeed be able to take a dudes head off no problem, no matter his "level" or "experience". I don't mind level scaling, it was a bit too in your face in Oblivion but other games have done it well. Baldurs Gate was cool, low level you might meet a few skeleton warriors, high level you might meet a lich :shock:

I don't have a problem with it being implemented in some random wildernesses to keep the game more challenging, but certain areas should have the enemy levels locked. No matter what, the first town of a game should never ever be overwhelmed with hyper-dragons or whatever, but the final area of the game should have the enemy level locked pretty high, because I should not be able to beat the whole game at level 2.

I really hated in in TES:Oblivion. Every time you leveled up every NPC in the game would also get a signficant power boost. No thanks.

I thought Fallout 3 handled it quite well, though.

Its pretty good in Fallout 3 and New Vegas but it was just annoying in Oblivion. I honestly gave up on the game because I was struggling with every fight for some reason.

It really int that black or white for me.

I hate 1:1 level scaling, nomatter what level you are, ultimately it doessnt matter.

If the scaling makes a jump every 10 levels or so, I would not really be annoyied, a fairly good example would be NWN1.

Level scaling is ok, IF it still allows the player to become more powerful, and better. But if it is used to keep the player down, then it is a quite bad thing.

If levels scale, why have the system at all?

I think it's fine. The only game to do it totally wrong was Oblivion because you got stupid crap like the weak cave dwelling bandits wearing the same armor that took you 30 levels to find.

[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

I remember it being really annoying in Oblivion. If I'm level 60 with badass armor/weapons/magic, it shouldn't be an epic struggle for me to take down a sewer rat.

gamebreakerz__

Yeah like getting Umbra at level one in Oblivion, incredibly silly that you could do that.

I prefer games without it, but it can be done well and is sometimes necessary. In Fallout 3 you are practically a superhuman demi god when you reach level 20 and the game is intensely easy then even with scaling. I could probably take on a dozen behemoths no problem at this point in Fallout 3.

Demon's Souls is cool though in that it doesn't scale until you beat the game and that for the most part the game is more skill related and more reliant on your timing and abilites then your level.