Lawsuit: Microsoft Knew the Xbox 360 Could Damage Discs, MS Admitted Warning Lab

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SecretPolice

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#1 SecretPolice
Member since 2007 • 45609 Posts

How stupid is this - Does someone actually need a warning label to warn them not to move around the 360 when the disk is spinning @ 7500 RPM or any speed for that manner. I would think many knew it isn't a good idea to move your disk based console when in use even back in the PS1 days.

Next up - warning labels for stoves that say: Hot when used to heat food. :twisted:

The Story.

A recently unsealed document from a lawsuit against Microsoft claims that the console maker's own engineers knew that the Xbox 360 could damage discs if moved while a disc was spinning.

"This is ... information that we as a team, optical disc drive team, knew about," said Microsoft program manager Hiroo Umeno, according to the document. "When we first discovered the problem in September or October (2005), when we got a first report of disc movement, we knew this is what's causing the problem."

While other consoles use similar disc drive technology, the plaintiff in the case argues that Microsoft knew the uniquely-high speed of the Xbox 360 drive--7,500 RPM compared to 4,000 and 3,500 rpm for the PlayStation 3 and Wii, respectively--could lead to the damage of consumer property.

According to the motion, Microsoft considered several fixes to the problem, including slowing the speed of the drive, and implementing a small rubber bumper--the former would have increased load times, while the latter would have cost Microsoft between $35-75 million.

Microsoft finally settled on implementing its disc replacement program for Microsoft-published games, as well as including a warning label with the console. But according to the motion, Microsoft employees admitted in an internal email that the warning label was insufficient.

A Microsoft employee quoted in the motion said that over 55,000 customers have complained of scratched discs as of April 2008.

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Wolblade

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#2 Wolblade
Member since 2008 • 986 Posts
It's like people sueing McDonald's because their coffee-cup didn't have a label to say it was "Hot". It's just how society sometimes works.
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deactivated-5e836a855beb2

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#3 deactivated-5e836a855beb2
Member since 2005 • 95573 Posts
You know what, SecretPolice. My friend moved his 360 while a disc was spinning a slight bit, and I was like, YOU IDIOT. It was okay, though. I told him not to ever do that again, though. :P
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EuroMafia

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#4 EuroMafia
Member since 2008 • 7026 Posts
Yep, I didn't know the 360 was a handheld system.
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6matt6

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#6 6matt6
Member since 2005 • 9726 Posts
[QUOTE="Wolblade"]It's like people sueing McDonald's because their coffee-cup didn't have a label to say it was "Hot". It's just how society sometimes works.darthogre
You do realize the disc can still be scratched without moving the console right? For instance if you have loud speakers the vibration (if it's on a stand) can jar the X360 ever so slightly but enough that it's possible to scratch the disc. One of the games I was playing had this happen to it and it's the only way I can explain it. Oh and I like how all of you fanboys defend MS from putting rubber bumpers to prevent this all together (like EVERYONE uses). Basically you are defending them for cutting a drop in the bucket (75 mill) when so many customers are getting the short end of the stick. But then again you are the same people defending MS and the RRoD so I'm not surprised. You guys obvoiusly like broken ****.

Are you deaf? How loud do you have to have your speakers to move a 10 pound console?
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deactivated-5e836a855beb2

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#7 deactivated-5e836a855beb2
Member since 2005 • 95573 Posts
How loud do you have to have your speakers to move a 10 pound console?6matt6
He had his subwoofer set to 11.
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haziqonfire

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#8 haziqonfire
Member since 2005 • 36392 Posts
It should be common knowledge that moving the console while the disc is spinning = bad for the disc ..
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darthogre

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#9 darthogre
Member since 2006 • 5082 Posts
[QUOTE="darthogre"][QUOTE="Wolblade"]It's like people sueing McDonald's because their coffee-cup didn't have a label to say it was "Hot". It's just how society sometimes works.6matt6
You do realize the disc can still be scratched without moving the console right? For instance if you have loud speakers the vibration (if it's on a stand) can jar the X360 ever so slightly but enough that it's possible to scratch the disc. One of the games I was playing had this happen to it and it's the only way I can explain it. Oh and I like how all of you fanboys defend MS from putting rubber bumpers to prevent this all together (like EVERYONE uses). Basically you are defending them for cutting a drop in the bucket (75 mill) when so many customers are getting the short end of the stick. But then again you are the same people defending MS and the RRoD so I'm not surprised. You guys obvoiusly like broken ****.

Are you deaf? How loud do you have to have your speakers to move a 10 pound console?

I said the it HAD to be the speakers because it wasn't being moved but do I know it's the speakers, not absolutely sure. Also technically speaking the 12 inch sub I have doesn't need to be turned up to the point I'm deaf......my sub shakes the entire stand at low volume. So essentially I had to play the X360 on my TV spakers because it was too dangerous playing it with my sound system. Again I was just guessing it was the speakers, the only other explaination is it was a random occurance.
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kerpal_cz

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#10 kerpal_cz
Member since 2008 • 196 Posts

I said the it HAD to be the speakers because it wasn't being moved but do I know it's the speakers, not absolutely sure. Also technically speaking the 12 inch sub I have doesn't need to be turned up to the point I'm deaf......my sub shakes the entire stand at low volume. So essentially I had to play the X360 on my TV spakers because it was too dangerous playing it with my sound system. Again I was just guessing it was the speakers, the only other explaination is it was a random occurance.darthogre

Maybe move your 360 away from the giant magnetic, vibration producing object?

Your HDD will be next.

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micky4889

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#11 micky4889
Member since 2006 • 2668 Posts
It should be common knowledge that moving the console while the disc is spinning = bad for the disc .. Haziqonfire
It doesnt affect the PS3, wii , PS2 or Xbox
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river_rat3117

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#12 river_rat3117
Member since 2003 • 3474 Posts
well my 360 vibrates quite a bit, i wonder if that would cause it too. but i dont play my 360 enough to have it happen to any games
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deactivated-5e836a855beb2

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#13 deactivated-5e836a855beb2
Member since 2005 • 95573 Posts
[QUOTE="Haziqonfire"]It should be common knowledge that moving the console while the disc is spinning = bad for the disc .. micky4889
It doesnt affect the PS3, wii , PS2 or Xbox

I'm pretty sure my PS2 scratched a disc or two. :P
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hmac777

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#14 hmac777
Member since 2007 • 1351 Posts
I think when you buy a stove it does come with that label, its a liability thing
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micky4889

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#15 micky4889
Member since 2006 • 2668 Posts
[QUOTE="micky4889"][QUOTE="Haziqonfire"]It should be common knowledge that moving the console while the disc is spinning = bad for the disc .. Jandurin
It doesnt affect the PS3, wii , PS2 or Xbox

I'm pretty sure my PS2 scratched a disc or two. :P

Are you joking ? i could pick up and shake my ps2 and still no scratches lol look http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjU4j82mfhA&feature=channel_page
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deactivated-5e836a855beb2

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#16 deactivated-5e836a855beb2
Member since 2005 • 95573 Posts
Are you joking ? i could pick up and shake my ps2 and still no scratches lol look micky4889
I'm serious. I think my PS2 scratched some discs. Your PS2 isn't the same as mine :o Regardless, they were very minor scratches, the game was still playable.
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Rigga911

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#17 Rigga911
Member since 2008 • 2429 Posts
MS screwed up the 360 ok
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agff9

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#18 agff9
Member since 2006 • 514 Posts
Did they know that there will be a hack that alows to play pirate games after 4 months ?....probally yes....
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Leejjohno

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#19 Leejjohno
Member since 2005 • 13897 Posts

People might think this is blown out of proportion, but the 360 is the only disk console I haven't been able to move while playing disks. My PS2 could take a battering and the disk still be fine. I am even confident I could move my PC with a disk spinning.

My concern is; when is MS going to give me my money back for disks that cracked because of them simply being played.

I know I'm not the only one with games that have cracks from the inside outwards. Games I play the most suffered the most - namely oblivion.

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micky4889

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#20 micky4889
Member since 2006 • 2668 Posts

People might think this is blown out of proportion, but the 360 is the only disk console I haven't been able to move while playing disks. My PS2 could take a battering and the disk still be fine. I am even confident I could move my PC with a disk spinning.

My concern is; when is MS going to give me my money back for disks that cracked because of them simply being played.

I know I'm not the only one with games that have cracks from the inside outwards. Games I play the most suffered the most - namely oblivion.

Leejjohno
wow i never got a crack in any of my discs just a ring shaped scratch near the edge of the disc
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channtheman1

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#21 channtheman1
Member since 2007 • 1176 Posts
I had my last console horizontal and never touched the thing and it ruined half my discs. Good thing walmart does the exchange thing with any games or I would have been out a lot of money. It's not like everyone who's 360 scratches their games moves them. MS did make a crappy system and they try to say that the consumer is the moron when I know for fact that my 360 scratched my discs.
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Deihmos

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#22 Deihmos
Member since 2007 • 7819 Posts
Of course they knew it could damage discs. its right there in the manual and it says not to move the console while he disc is spinning.
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SecretPolice

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#23 SecretPolice
Member since 2007 • 45609 Posts
[QUOTE="Leejjohno"]

People might think this is blown out of proportion, but the 360 is the only disk console I haven't been able to move while playing disks. My PS2 could take a battering and the disk still be fine. I am even confident I could move my PC with a disk spinning.

My concern is; when is MS going to give me my money back for disks that cracked because of them simply being played.

I know I'm not the only one with games that have cracks from the inside outwards. Games I play the most suffered the most - namely oblivion.

micky4889
wow i never got a crack in any of my discs just a ring shaped scratch near the edge of the disc

And I have had neither happen even on games like M.E., L.O. and Oblivion where I spent over a hundred hours on each.
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Mau-Justice

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#24 Mau-Justice
Member since 2008 • 4907 Posts

[QUOTE="Wolblade"]It's like people sueing McDonald's because their coffee-cup didn't have a label to say it was "Hot". It's just how society sometimes works.darthogre
You do realize the disc can still be scratched without moving the console right? For instance if you have loud speakers the vibration (if it's on a stand) can jar the X360 ever so slightly but enough that it's possible to scratch the disc. One of the games I was playing had this happen to it and it's the only way I can explain it. Oh and I like how all of you fanboys defend MS from putting rubber bumpers to prevent this all together (like EVERYONE uses). Basically you are defending them for cutting a drop in the bucket (75 mill) when so many customers are getting the short end of the stick. But then again you are the same people defending MS and the RRoD so I'm not surprised. You guys obvoiusly like broken ****.

And what is your alternative? Sony? Because PS2 DRE was never a problem right?

I've never scrated a 360 disc, it's not defending it, it's just using your head...I keep it away from my speakers, and lay it horizontally...I mean this is common knowledge about disc scratching and RROD ...just take preventative measure and you'll be fine.

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delta3074

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#25 delta3074
Member since 2007 • 20003 Posts

People might think this is blown out of proportion, but the 360 is the only disk console I haven't been able to move while playing disks. My PS2 could take a battering and the disk still be fine. I am even confident I could move my PC with a disk spinning.

My concern is; when is MS going to give me my money back for disks that cracked because of them simply being played.

I know I'm not the only one with games that have cracks from the inside outwards. Games I play the most suffered the most - namely oblivion.

Leejjohno
moving the 360 cause the disks to scratch not crack, cracking is caused by taking a major hot disk out og the console and putting it straight in the box, i know it happened to my gears disk and after that i left my disks out to cool down before putting them in the box, have not had a cracked disk since, and now i install my games so the drive does not spin anyway
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deactivated-5e836a855beb2

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#26 deactivated-5e836a855beb2
Member since 2005 • 95573 Posts
[QUOTE="delta3074"][QUOTE="Leejjohno"]

People might think this is blown out of proportion, but the 360 is the only disk console I haven't been able to move while playing disks. My PS2 could take a battering and the disk still be fine. I am even confident I could move my PC with a disk spinning.

My concern is; when is MS going to give me my money back for disks that cracked because of them simply being played.

I know I'm not the only one with games that have cracks from the inside outwards. Games I play the most suffered the most - namely oblivion.

moving the 360 cause the disks to scratch not crack, cracking is caused by taking a major hot disk out og the console and putting it straight in the box, i know it happened to my gears disk and after that i left my disks out to cool down before putting them in the box, have not had a cracked disk since, and now i install my games so the drive does not spin anyway

Weird. I didn't know that. I usually just leave my discs in the console. Anyway, now I always keep the 2 main games I'm playing installed so there is never a disc spinning.
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delta3074

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#27 delta3074
Member since 2007 • 20003 Posts
[QUOTE="Jandurin"][QUOTE="delta3074"][QUOTE="Leejjohno"]

People might think this is blown out of proportion, but the 360 is the only disk console I haven't been able to move while playing disks. My PS2 could take a battering and the disk still be fine. I am even confident I could move my PC with a disk spinning.

My concern is; when is MS going to give me my money back for disks that cracked because of them simply being played.

I know I'm not the only one with games that have cracks from the inside outwards. Games I play the most suffered the most - namely oblivion.

moving the 360 cause the disks to scratch not crack, cracking is caused by taking a major hot disk out og the console and putting it straight in the box, i know it happened to my gears disk and after that i left my disks out to cool down before putting them in the box, have not had a cracked disk since, and now i install my games so the drive does not spin anyway

Weird. I didn't know that. I usually just leave my discs in the console. Anyway, now I always keep the 2 main games I'm playing installed so there is never a disc spinning.

it's only a problem with certain games that come out of the drive really hot also certain boxes, when gears first shipped it had that horrible solid square post thing in the box, and they actually changed the box;s when the complaints flooded in.
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ANeuralPathway

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#28 ANeuralPathway
Member since 2008 • 580 Posts

It's like people sueing McDonald's because their coffee-cup didn't have a label to say it was "Hot". It's just how society sometimes works.Wolblade

I used to use this case as my example of absurd lawsuits, but then I found out a little bit more about the circumstances. The woman got 3rd degree burns from the coffee, not an insignificant injury.

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KukicAdo

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#29 KukicAdo
Member since 2008 • 973 Posts
well to be quite honest I used to move my PS2 around while it was running and never ever once did it damage the disk....so.....
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inertk

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#30 inertk
Member since 2007 • 3385 Posts
My 360 scratches my discs even thought it hasn't moved. Halo 3 looks like the inside of an old tree.
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horgen

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#31 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127732 Posts
I am not surprised they knew this already... While they can't avoid it because the disc is spinning so fast, they could however make it so the disc hits something else that won't scratch it
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solidgamer

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#32 solidgamer
Member since 2005 • 7542 Posts
Not going to lie i found out the hardway, my 360 was verticle and as i was playing GEOW i decided to put it horiztonally not knowing they it destroyed my disk and made it uplayable i thought it would of held in place lol
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mr_mozilla

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#33 mr_mozilla
Member since 2006 • 2381 Posts
Of course they knew it, no company would release a console without extensive testing for this type of issues. But c'mon now, it's the cheapest console out there, like lemmings always say about live, "you get what you pay for". If I buy a $20 mp3 player I'm not expecting an ipod, it's just the way it goes.
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thinicer

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#34 thinicer
Member since 2006 • 3704 Posts
I think that it clearly states in the 360 manual not to move the console with a disc inside it. Microsoft is covered. It's important for the consumer to read the directions and pay attention to the care and handling of the product they are purchasing.
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micky4889

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#35 micky4889
Member since 2006 • 2668 Posts
I think that it clearly states in the 360 manual not to move the console with a disc inside it. Microsoft is covered. It's important for the consumer to read the directions and pay attention to the care and handling of the product they are purchasing.thinicer
But thats the thing it does scratch games without moving the console http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STwlMKiSP2c&feature=channel_page (sorry cant link on firefox )
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Krigon

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#36 Krigon
Member since 2005 • 5591 Posts
[QUOTE="micky4889"]Are you joking ? i could pick up and shake my ps2 and still no scratches lol look Jandurin
I'm serious. I think my PS2 scratched some discs. Your PS2 isn't the same as mine :o Regardless, they were very minor scratches, the game was still playable.

Indeed last gen consoles where known for scratching discs if they (the systems) where moved.
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dattruth4real

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#37 dattruth4real
Member since 2008 • 218 Posts

Hah:o Good old M$ and their cheap ways of price cutting, they been doing this sense windows 98.:lol:

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yoshi_64

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#38 yoshi_64
Member since 2003 • 25261 Posts
The only disc I know that's got some unusual looks on it is my Halo disc. The center has a little crack in the plastic part, and the disc has some scratches. I usually take care of my games, but I'm not blaming the system either. My friend has loaned that game to his friends before, so I blame them! :P
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DaBrainz

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#39 DaBrainz
Member since 2007 • 7959 Posts
I guess a disagree with most of you, consoles should be built to withstand some abuse. I have no problem with my portable CD/DVD players or laptops because they are built to handle a certain amount of turbulance. This is just MS building a cheap console to save money on costs.
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Animal-Mother

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#40 Animal-Mother
Member since 2003 • 27362 Posts
[QUOTE="Leejjohno"]

People might think this is blown out of proportion, but the 360 is the only disk console I haven't been able to move while playing disks. My PS2 could take a battering and the disk still be fine. I am even confident I could move my PC with a disk spinning.

My concern is; when is MS going to give me my money back for disks that cracked because of them simply being played.

I know I'm not the only one with games that have cracks from the inside outwards. Games I play the most suffered the most - namely oblivion.

micky4889
wow i never got a crack in any of my discs just a ring shaped scratch near the edge of the disc

ive gotten cracks on my first Gears of war
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hip-hop-cola2

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#41 hip-hop-cola2
Member since 2007 • 2454 Posts
Anybody who defends this in anyway shape or form, should really just think... And yes, moving a spinning disk is bad, but the "pads" are standard with most dvd players. Its not tiny scratches, it destroys the disc.
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Youngmav05

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#43 Youngmav05
Member since 2006 • 139 Posts
You people coming to Microsofts side kill me. "Oh the idiots should know better then to move a system while it's on!" Gimme a break you could move a PS1, PS2 Dreamcast, Hell even the original XBOX while it was on and your disc didn't risk the chance of being given to a shredder. You don't know the circumstances of why someone system might have to be moved while on. The fact is Microsoft KNEW the problem existed and instead of doing something they decided it would be a good thing to leave it in so they could implement a replacement program to generate more revenue. I worked at gamestop 2 years ago and I was well aware of the problem, warning everyone who purchased a 360 about it, If the off chance it did it a occur to one of my customers I told them to bring back their reciept and I would replace the game for them. Seriously defending a company that screwed up and laughed its way to the bank because of it, you people are retarted. Whats even funnier is that aren't PC(Microsoft) Users constantly berating Apple users for sticking to the company despite all of it's flaws and screw ups (Iphone launch I'm looking at you)? Now you sheep lems whatever you want to call yourselves are doing the same thing. Pathetic....
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EmperorZeruel

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#44 EmperorZeruel
Member since 2007 • 4207 Posts
It might be because the 360 disk tray is realy bad compared to the ps3 and the wii. I know on the wii you could move it and it wont harm the disk, i am not too sure about ps3, but on 360 if your 360 falls over or gets moved there is a good chance the disk could get scrached, even if the 360 is off
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II_Seraphim_II

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#45 II_Seraphim_II
Member since 2007 • 20534 Posts
well to be quite honest I used to move my PS2 around while it was running and never ever once did it damage the disk....so.....KukicAdo
same here lol. Sometimes i will put a game in, and then my brother will bring some nachos or something, so I would move it from the table to the floor. I've yet to have any problems with it :P
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Mau-Justice

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#46 Mau-Justice
Member since 2008 • 4907 Posts

[QUOTE="Wolblade"]It's like people sueing McDonald's because their coffee-cup didn't have a label to say it was "Hot". It's just how society sometimes works.ANeuralPathway

I used to use this case as my example of absurd lawsuits, but then I found out a little bit more about the circumstances. The woman got 3rd degree burns from the coffee, not an insignificant injury.

In her lap of all places...

She went through the Drive-Thru, and the handoff went poorly. I don't necesarilly think it was valid lawsuit, but she definitely has a right to complain and should be compensated by somebody. Of course none of us were there to know the details of what happened, but you shouldn't make light of it...It wasn't because "The Coffee was hot"

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SemiMaster

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#47 SemiMaster
Member since 2006 • 19011 Posts
ATI warned them that the GPU would overheat and cause thermal cracking of the solder joints too... but Microsoft didn't listen. What else is new?
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BobRea

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#48 BobRea
Member since 2005 • 681 Posts
They're just stupid loop holes in our legal system that people are able to exploit, so good for them.
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WilliamRLBaker

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#49 WilliamRLBaker
Member since 2006 • 28915 Posts
My ps2 never scratched my discs when i moved it is the common thread so far....which is likely a lie since the problems with the ps2 are inumerable including DRE, Failing, and scratching discs.

Surfice to say the first generation of ps2's were nortorious for this type of thing, untill sony put a stop in the ps2 that stopped the disc from spinning when it wasn't needed to spin, as well the ps2's dvd drive never spun as fast as the 360's drive which is why its loading times are so good.
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cuddlesofwar

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#50 cuddlesofwar
Member since 2008 • 1138 Posts
Is says it clearly in the Manual. Not to move it when a disk is in the tray