Lemmings, Cows, Hermits, Sheep and Manticores Unite

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AD216

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#51 AD216
Member since 2008 • 1719 Posts
[QUOTE="ShoulderOfOrion"]In the end this will do more good than harm. It's good for the industry and will barely inconvenience you. clyde46
You serious?

i honestly hope he was joking
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shawn30

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#52 shawn30
Member since 2006 • 4409 Posts
[QUOTE="clyde46"][QUOTE="ShoulderOfOrion"]In the end this will do more good than harm. It's good for the industry and will barely inconvenience you. AD216
You serious?

i honestly hope he was joking

I doubt he was and I agree with him. Things all over the industry are changing. Its cool to not like change, but naive to ignore the reasons behind it.
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SambaLele

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#53 SambaLele
Member since 2004 • 5552 Posts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZ7v_8tMcsU&feature=youtu.be

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shawn30

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#54 shawn30
Member since 2006 • 4409 Posts
[QUOTE="shawn30"]

[QUOTE="AD216"] that's respectable but DRM will lead us down a worse path. it's almost guaranteedAD216

It depends on two things for me. 1. I want to be able to lend my game to a friend without him/her having to pay a fee to play it 2. The DRM fee for buying used games must be a small reasonable fee, as I do understand the buisness of gaming and not just the me me me fanboy cries out there. Its is very expensive developing games and becoming moreso each passing year, and marketing costs are skyrocketing. Game publishers are closing left and right, or leaving for mobile games do to this fact. So if this extra DRM revenue saves some quality developers and is within a reasonable sum then I can see myself supporting it. An example to me would be if a new game is 60 bucks, used it used to be 40 and now is 45 due to DRM. But who knows until its clarified.

I'm old enough and smart enough to see this issue through more than just fanboy eyes. People are losing jobs and developers are closing down due to the rising costs of being in the gaming industry period. Publishers I feel should be able to gain some small extra revenue from the resale of their games. It just IMO needs to be a reasonable sum.

developers are closing down and people are losing jobs because of 1. the bad economy and 2. the newly dominated casual gaming market and free to play games on tablets and phones are leading to people buying less console games. the last thing the gaming industry needs is to put more pressure on gamers by forcing them to pay fees for used games which would most likely mean that the game would be linked to ur account which would prevent u from letting anyone on a different system borrow a came.

But to a degree you justify my claim with your response. Publishers/developers have to find new ways to generate revenue to survive in this current market. I don't want to pay more for used games, but I get why if I step out of a gamers only shoes and look at things from a different perspective. Gaming is a hobby, not real life. So if some things change with my hobby, within reason, if I can justify why and the companies can then so be it.
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shawn30

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#55 shawn30
Member since 2006 • 4409 Posts
[QUOTE="Rocker6"]

[QUOTE="ShoulderOfOrion"]I'm not begging like a hermit. AD216

I'm not bending over like a lem.

------

See, TC?

There shall be no unity, only war... WAAAAAR!

lmao well at least when hardcore gaming goes down in flames i can say i warned everybody on here.

Gaming is a hobby, be it core or casual. Lets not make it so important that we lose site its supposed to be fun, not work or politics or issues of life and death.
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SKaREO

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#56 SKaREO
Member since 2006 • 3161 Posts
[QUOTE="AD216"][QUOTE="Rocker6"]

I'm not bending over like a lem.

------

See, TC?

There shall be no unity, only war... WAAAAAR!

shawn30
lmao well at least when hardcore gaming goes down in flames i can say i warned everybody on here.

Gaming is a hobby, be it core or casual. Lets not make it so important that we lose site its supposed to be fun, not work or politics or issues of life and death.

Gaming is a lifestyle for a lot of people. Keep your ignorant opinions to yourself.
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SambaLele

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#57 SambaLele
Member since 2004 • 5552 Posts

[QUOTE="clyde46"][QUOTE="ShoulderOfOrion"]In the end this will do more good than harm. It's good for the industry and will barely inconvenience you. ShoulderOfOrion
You serious?

My understanding is that you can still play used games on X1, it's just that a lot of the money generated from those now goes towards the publisher and MS. How is that a bad thing? They'll make more money off of games, so they'll invest more in games, and be more open to new ideas.

 

How is that bad?

How about you paying a fee to have the "right" to sell your own property.

Do you or the buyer have to pay a fee to the builder of your house when you want to sell it?

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SambaLele

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#58 SambaLele
Member since 2004 • 5552 Posts

[QUOTE="AD216"][QUOTE="Rocker6"]

I'm not bending over like a lem.

------

See, TC?

There shall be no unity, only war... WAAAAAR!

shawn30

lmao well at least when hardcore gaming goes down in flames i can say i warned everybody on here.

Gaming is a hobby, be it core or casual. Lets not make it so important that we lose site its supposed to be fun, not work or politics or issues of life and death.

 

A hobby that's one of the biggest markets in capitalism. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2009/sep/27/videogames-hollywood)

If a used products fee was succesfully implemented in gaming, why wouldn't other market sectors want to do the same?

Because the gaming market is "special"?

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lowe0

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#59 lowe0
Member since 2004 • 13692 Posts
I kinda like the idea of DRM. I buy my games new at launch, and I'd be happy to see pirates blocked from freeloading on a game I helped support. It's the implementation, however, that lets me down. Inevitably some douche will crack it, leaving legitimate customers as the only ones actually impacted.
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ShoulderOfOrion

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#60 ShoulderOfOrion
Member since 2013 • 3379 Posts

 

How is that bad?

How about you paying a fee to have the "right" to sell your own property.

Do you or the buyer have to pay a fee to the builder of your house when you want to sell it?

SambaLele
Well video games aren't houses.
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OneInchMan99

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#61 OneInchMan99
Member since 2012 • 1248 Posts

[QUOTE="Xaero_Gravity"]You have my axe.Postal_Guy

And my bow!

I'm not joining forces with no lemming..........never trust a lemming!!!

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MonsieurX

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#62 MonsieurX
Member since 2008 • 39858 Posts
[QUOTE="SambaLele"]

 

How is that bad?

How about you paying a fee to have the "right" to sell your own property.

Do you or the buyer have to pay a fee to the builder of your house when you want to sell it?

ShoulderOfOrion
Well video games aren't houses.

Then I lol'd
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shawn30

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#63 shawn30
Member since 2006 • 4409 Posts

[QUOTE="shawn30"][QUOTE="AD216"] lmao well at least when hardcore gaming goes down in flames i can say i warned everybody on here.SKaREO
Gaming is a hobby, be it core or casual. Lets not make it so important that we lose site its supposed to be fun, not work or politics or issues of life and death.

Gaming is a lifestyle for a lot of people. Keep your ignorant opinions to yourself.

Lol, gaming as a lifestyle? That's sad pal. Real sad. Gaming is a hobby. Maybe even your fav hobby. But nothing more. Gotta have a life outside of it.

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shawn30

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#64 shawn30
Member since 2006 • 4409 Posts

[QUOTE="shawn30"][QUOTE="AD216"] lmao well at least when hardcore gaming goes down in flames i can say i warned everybody on here.SambaLele

Gaming is a hobby, be it core or casual. Lets not make it so important that we lose site its supposed to be fun, not work or politics or issues of life and death.

 

A hobby that's one of the biggest markets in capitalism. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2009/sep/27/videogames-hollywood)

If a used products fee was succesfully implemented in gaming, why wouldn't other market sectors want to do the same?

Because the gaming market is "special"?

Never said it wasn't huge. Hell, I've been gaming over twenty years. Just saying its not the end of the world like some people act like is all. As for the gaming market, each industry goes through changes and standards. I don't know what will happen. Only offered a POV why I think it may not be a horrible idea, why, and only if its reasonable
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bobbetybob

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#65 bobbetybob
Member since 2005 • 19370 Posts
MAKE DIS PICTURE UR FACEBOOK PROFILE TO HELP CURE CANCER!!!
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call_of_duty_10

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#66 call_of_duty_10
Member since 2009 • 4954 Posts

tbh I do not have any problem with used game drm.

What bothers me,is the type of drm in PC games.After reaching home,I just wish to pop in the disk and start playing.No online check,no codes,no installations,nothing.I want to spend my free time playing games,not typing cd-keys.

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lostrib

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#67 lostrib
Member since 2009 • 49999 Posts

MAKE DIS PICTURE UR FACEBOOK PROFILE TO HELP CURE CANCER!!!bobbetybob

If we get 10,000 likes we'll save dis babby!

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lostrib

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#68 lostrib
Member since 2009 • 49999 Posts

tbh I do not have any problem with used game drm.

What bothers me,is the type of drm in PC games.After reaching home,I just wish to pop in the disk and start playing.No online check,no codes,no installations,nothing.I want to spend my free time playing games,not typing cd-keys.

call_of_duty_10

yeah it's not like console games have mandatory installs or online passes...oh wait they do!  

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SambaLele

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#69 SambaLele
Member since 2004 • 5552 Posts

[QUOTE="SambaLele"]

 

How is that bad?

How about you paying a fee to have the "right" to sell your own property.

Do you or the buyer have to pay a fee to the builder of your house when you want to sell it?

ShoulderOfOrion

Well video games aren't houses.

 

Wow, he's so smart... :o

You can't grasp the concept of giving precedent to a change of market dynamics, can you?

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Rocker6

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#70 Rocker6
Member since 2009 • 13358 Posts

I kinda like the idea of DRM. I buy my games new at launch, and I'd be happy to see pirates blocked from freeloading on a game I helped support. It's the implementation, however, that lets me down. Inevitably some douche will crack it, leaving legitimate customers as the only ones actually impacted.lowe0

Nothing bad with looking for a workaround if your prefered way of entertainment starts filling up with restrictive crap that gives you no benefits, only frustration.

If a DRM is bad and introduces unnecessary frustrations to your hobby and people crack it to keep things simple, they aren't douches, the biggest douches are the ones who didn't understand gaming is meant to be easy and accessible, with no hoops to jump through. You of all people should understand that, when you so often praise the simplicity of consoles as closed systems...

Do you hate the pirates so much that you'd sacriffice your own gaming experience only to see a way to potentially stop them or slow them down?

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ShoulderOfOrion

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#71 ShoulderOfOrion
Member since 2013 • 3379 Posts

[QUOTE="ShoulderOfOrion"][QUOTE="SambaLele"]

 

How is that bad?

How about you paying a fee to have the "right" to sell your own property.

Do you or the buyer have to pay a fee to the builder of your house when you want to sell it?

SambaLele

Well video games aren't houses.

 

Wow, he's so smart... :o

You can't grasp the concept of giving precedent to a change of market dynamics, can you?

Well I realize there will be drawbacks, but like I said earlier in the end this will do more good than bad.
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call_of_duty_10

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#72 call_of_duty_10
Member since 2009 • 4954 Posts

[QUOTE="call_of_duty_10"]

tbh I do not have any problem with used game drm.

What bothers me,is the type of drm in PC games.After reaching home,I just wish to pop in the disk and start playing.No online check,no codes,no installations,nothing.I want to spend my free time playing games,not typing cd-keys.

lostrib

yeah it's not like console games have mandatory installs or online passes...oh wait they do!  

Not all games have online passes and mandatory installations.And besides,I rarely play MP. PS4 can install games while running them.This is one of the main reasons why I am quitting pc gaming next gen.
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jhonMalcovich

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#73 jhonMalcovich
Member since 2010 • 7090 Posts

Why would hermits help you in that ? Less next gen consoles units sold -> more sold PCs. More sold PCs -> more PC gamers. More PC gamers -> more games on PC.

I say GO SONY, GO MS :P Support DRM on next gen consoles.

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jimmyrussle117

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#74 jimmyrussle117
Member since 2012 • 850 Posts

I'm not begging like a hermit. ShoulderOfOrion

Atleast i'm not a wellfare gamer.

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SambaLele

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#75 SambaLele
Member since 2004 • 5552 Posts

[QUOTE="SambaLele"]

[QUOTE="shawn30"] Gaming is a hobby, be it core or casual. Lets not make it so important that we lose site its supposed to be fun, not work or politics or issues of life and death. shawn30

 

A hobby that's one of the biggest markets in capitalism. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2009/sep/27/videogames-hollywood)

If a used products fee was succesfully implemented in gaming, why wouldn't other market sectors want to do the same?

Because the gaming market is "special"?

Never said it wasn't huge. Hell, I've been gaming over twenty years. Just saying its not the end of the world like some people act like is all. As for the gaming market, each industry goes through changes and standards. I don't know what will happen. Only offered a POV why I think it may not be a horrible idea, why, and only if its reasonable

 

And exactly why is that DRM approach reasonable?

I can understand why that same thing may work with DD in Steam and GOG for example. In this case you're not actually buying a hard copy of a product, that's your property from there on. And PC gamers still have the option of buying the physical media, instead of DD, if they want to.

With X1 you're talking about mandatory DD policy in the physical market, crippling rights of ownership over what you bought, which are protected by the first sale doctrine.

Is all that reasonable because publishers put all the blame of the industry's problems on used games? Really?

So GM almost went bankrupt because they didn't profit with used cars? Or because they couldn't face competition, and were worse administrators than their competitors? It's the same here to publishers, but they don't want to review their business strategies, if they can just profit more than one time with the same copy  of a game.

It's the easy way out: drop the burden on the consumer.

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SambaLele

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#76 SambaLele
Member since 2004 • 5552 Posts

[QUOTE="SambaLele"]

[QUOTE="ShoulderOfOrion"] Well video games aren't houses. ShoulderOfOrion

 

Wow, he's so smart... :o

You can't grasp the concept of giving precedent to a change of market dynamics, can you?

Well I realize there will be drawbacks, but like I said earlier in the end this will do more good than bad.

 

How can it do more good than bad?

Are you signing a contract with them that forces them to bring prices down, or to at least keep them as they are because of that DRM?

That their excuses for bad business decisions will stop after taking control of the secondhand market?

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lowe0

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#77 lowe0
Member since 2004 • 13692 Posts

[QUOTE="lowe0"]I kinda like the idea of DRM. I buy my games new at launch, and I'd be happy to see pirates blocked from freeloading on a game I helped support. It's the implementation, however, that lets me down. Inevitably some douche will crack it, leaving legitimate customers as the only ones actually impacted.Rocker6

Nothing bad with looking for a workaround if your prefered way of entertainment starts filling up with restrictive crap that gives you no benefits, only frustration.

If a DRM is bad and introduces unnecessary frustrations to your hobby and people crack it to keep things simple, they aren't douches, the biggest douches are the ones who didn't understand gaming is meant to be easy and accessible, with no hoops to jump through. You of all people should understand that, when you so often praise the simplicity of consoles as closed systems...

Do you hate the pirates so much that you'd sacriffice your own gaming experience only to see a way to potentially stop them or slow them down?

Honestly? Yes, because the closed DRM has no discernable impact on me. My internet connection is rock solid (the only thing Comcast does right), I don't buy or sell used games, and I don't pirate. DRM could take over the planet or disappear entirely and I'd barely notice.
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shawn30

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#78 shawn30
Member since 2006 • 4409 Posts

[QUOTE="shawn30"][QUOTE="SambaLele"]

 

A hobby that's one of the biggest markets in capitalism. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2009/sep/27/videogames-hollywood)

If a used products fee was succesfully implemented in gaming, why wouldn't other market sectors want to do the same?

Because the gaming market is "special"?

SambaLele

Never said it wasn't huge. Hell, I've been gaming over twenty years. Just saying its not the end of the world like some people act like is all. As for the gaming market, each industry goes through changes and standards. I don't know what will happen. Only offered a POV why I think it may not be a horrible idea, why, and only if its reasonable

 

And exactly why is that DRM approach reasonable?

I can understand why that same thing may work with DD in Steam and GOG for example. In this case you're not actually buying a hard copy of a product, that's your property from there on. And PC gamers still have the option of buying the physical media, instead of DD, if they want to.

With X1 you're talking about mandatory DD policy in the physical market, crippling rights of ownership over what you bought, which are protected by the first sale doctrine.

Is all that reasonable because publishers put all the blame of the industry's problems on used games? Really?

So GM almost went bankrupt because they didn't profit with used cars? Or because they couldn't face competition, and were worse administrators than their competitors? It's the same here to publishers, but they don't want to review their business strategies, if they can just profit more than one time with the same copy  of a game.

It's the easy way out: drop the burden on the consumer.

DRM where it is concered in terms of lending a game to a pal/friend, I want their to be no fee involved in that whatsoever so I can do that and they can play it for free. I wont argue any point counter to that. But the resell side of things, its really simple. Yes, there are more reasons developers/publishers are seeing less revenue than just used games. But the used game market and pirate markets cost them millions a year. That's a fact. So if in addition to buying a used game I am charged an additional reasonable fee (say 5 bucks or so, hopefully) I can understand that. The developers/publishers would gain additional revenue each time their product is sold, which means they stay open and save jobs. I get that point even though it will cost me more money. The gaming industry, as all industry's, is its own beast. This is the direction I see it going, and comparing it to another industry isn't always fair. I don't see it as a burden to pay a small fee more if the developers can continue making the games I enjoy and the industry prospers with added revenue all around. Its not a perfect solution, but it seems to be the one they are going with. And I don't think its the end of the world.
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AmazonTreeBoa

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#79 AmazonTreeBoa
Member since 2011 • 16745 Posts
I don't have a twitter account and have yet to see a reason for one. WTF do I want to follow somebody for or be followed? I haven't ever understood the appeal of twitter.
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SambaLele

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#80 SambaLele
Member since 2004 • 5552 Posts

[QUOTE="SambaLele"]

[QUOTE="shawn30"] Never said it wasn't huge. Hell, I've been gaming over twenty years. Just saying its not the end of the world like some people act like is all. As for the gaming market, each industry goes through changes and standards. I don't know what will happen. Only offered a POV why I think it may not be a horrible idea, why, and only if its reasonable shawn30

 

And exactly why is that DRM approach reasonable?

I can understand why that same thing may work with DD in Steam and GOG for example. In this case you're not actually buying a hard copy of a product, that's your property from there on. And PC gamers still have the option of buying the physical media, instead of DD, if they want to.

With X1 you're talking about mandatory DD policy in the physical market, crippling rights of ownership over what you bought, which are protected by the first sale doctrine.

Is all that reasonable because publishers put all the blame of the industry's problems on used games? Really?

So GM almost went bankrupt because they didn't profit with used cars? Or because they couldn't face competition, and were worse administrators than their competitors? It's the same here to publishers, but they don't want to review their business strategies, if they can just profit more than one time with the same copy  of a game.

It's the easy way out: drop the burden on the consumer.

DRM where it is concered in terms of lending a game to a pal/friend, I want their to be no fee involved in that whatsoever so I can do that and they can play it for free. I wont argue any point counter to that. But the resell side of things, its really simple. Yes, there are more reasons developers/publishers are seeing less revenue than just used games. But the used game market and pirate markets cost them millions a year. That's a fact. So if in addition to buying a used game I am charged an additional reasonable fee (say 5 bucks or so, hopefully) I can understand that. The developers/publishers would gain additional revenue each time their product is sold, which means they stay open and save jobs. I get that point even though it will cost me more money. The gaming industry, as all industry's, is its own beast. This is the direction I see it going, and comparing it to another industry isn't always fair. I don't see it as a burden to pay a small fee more if the developers can continue making the games I enjoy and the industry prospers with added revenue all around. Its not a perfect solution, but it seems to be the one they are going with. And I don't think its the end of the world.

 

Let me quote a particular thing you said:

"But the used game market and pirate markets cost them millions a year. That's a fact."

You know why that is not a fact (in what's pertinent to used games)?

Because that's not their market.

They only lose money when it's their product, something that they own, and lose sales.

They sold you a copy of the game, you didn't buy the IP. You can't decide what direction the series will go, what will happen with characters, etc. But that one copy you bought, that is yours.

There is no reason, at all, to make it different from any durable product you buy. You buy a fry pan, it's yours, a car, it's yours, a house, still the same.

You bought it, you can use it, lend it, throw it away, trash it, sell it or even use it to profit from it yourself, because it's yours. And that goes to copyritghted works you bought (movies, music, games, etc.).

The thing is, people are, for some reason, accepting that the secondhand market is already theirs (the publisher's and the dev's).

It's not. It is your market.

The same goes to any market sector.

Is the gaming market any special? Does it need special treatment, that for example, the car market doesn't need? If devs and publishers entitle themselves to the secondhand market, and manage to do it (with us allowing it), why wouldn't any other company from other market sector want to do the same thing?

 

PS: one more thing. If you lend the game to your friend, like you said, he plays the game until he's done, and he still doesn't buy the game, won't the company be "losing" a sale? Imo, they're not. They already got paid for it by you. There is no reason to stablish a rule that everyone has to be the owner of the product they're using. One car per person. One movie per person, one game per person, etc. What we can demand, though, is that at least the owner allowed you to use it (since getting something from someone without their permission is stealing, like piracy for example).

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Rocker6

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#81 Rocker6
Member since 2009 • 13358 Posts

[QUOTE="Rocker6"]

[QUOTE="lowe0"]I kinda like the idea of DRM. I buy my games new at launch, and I'd be happy to see pirates blocked from freeloading on a game I helped support. It's the implementation, however, that lets me down. Inevitably some douche will crack it, leaving legitimate customers as the only ones actually impacted.lowe0

Nothing bad with looking for a workaround if your prefered way of entertainment starts filling up with restrictive crap that gives you no benefits, only frustration.

If a DRM is bad and introduces unnecessary frustrations to your hobby and people crack it to keep things simple, they aren't douches, the biggest douches are the ones who didn't understand gaming is meant to be easy and accessible, with no hoops to jump through. You of all people should understand that, when you so often praise the simplicity of consoles as closed systems...

Do you hate the pirates so much that you'd sacriffice your own gaming experience only to see a way to potentially stop them or slow them down?

Honestly? Yes, because the closed DRM has no discernable impact on me. My internet connection is rock solid (the only thing Comcast does right), I don't buy or sell used games, and I don't pirate. DRM could take over the planet or disappear entirely and I'd barely notice.

What about the fact how AO-DRM eventually makes all of your game purchases obsolete, since sooner or later, the game servers will be shut down, with devs not being legally obliged to patch the game to be playable off-line?

Now, sure, some of us may have rock solid Internet connections, but many gamers don't, or they simply don't want to connect their consoles to the Internet because of the kids or whatever. Also, unexpected stuff can happen, like the storm last year that cut away my Internet for some 2 weeks. I guess game servers can also be hacked, be down a while for maintenance, or due to malfunction. Isn't it far more preferable to simply buy a game and never worry about any of that?

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whiskeystrike

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#82 whiskeystrike
Member since 2011 • 12213 Posts

I have enough self-respect to not have a Twitter

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LASer354

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#84 LASer354
Member since 2013 • 319 Posts

Keep your hands off me.

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King_Dodongo

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#85 King_Dodongo
Member since 2006 • 3759 Posts
I thought this thread was about a war against the worms.
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shawn30

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#86 shawn30
Member since 2006 • 4409 Posts

[QUOTE="shawn30"][QUOTE="SambaLele"]

 

And exactly why is that DRM approach reasonable?

I can understand why that same thing may work with DD in Steam and GOG for example. In this case you're not actually buying a hard copy of a product, that's your property from there on. And PC gamers still have the option of buying the physical media, instead of DD, if they want to.

With X1 you're talking about mandatory DD policy in the physical market, crippling rights of ownership over what you bought, which are protected by the first sale doctrine.

Is all that reasonable because publishers put all the blame of the industry's problems on used games? Really?

So GM almost went bankrupt because they didn't profit with used cars? Or because they couldn't face competition, and were worse administrators than their competitors? It's the same here to publishers, but they don't want to review their business strategies, if they can just profit more than one time with the same copy  of a game.

It's the easy way out: drop the burden on the consumer.

SambaLele

DRM where it is concered in terms of lending a game to a pal/friend, I want their to be no fee involved in that whatsoever so I can do that and they can play it for free. I wont argue any point counter to that. But the resell side of things, its really simple. Yes, there are more reasons developers/publishers are seeing less revenue than just used games. But the used game market and pirate markets cost them millions a year. That's a fact. So if in addition to buying a used game I am charged an additional reasonable fee (say 5 bucks or so, hopefully) I can understand that. The developers/publishers would gain additional revenue each time their product is sold, which means they stay open and save jobs. I get that point even though it will cost me more money. The gaming industry, as all industry's, is its own beast. This is the direction I see it going, and comparing it to another industry isn't always fair. I don't see it as a burden to pay a small fee more if the developers can continue making the games I enjoy and the industry prospers with added revenue all around. Its not a perfect solution, but it seems to be the one they are going with. And I don't think its the end of the world.

 

Let me quote a particular thing you said:

"But the used game market and pirate markets cost them millions a year. That's a fact."

You know why that is not a fact (in what's pertinent to used games)?

Because that's not their market.

They only lose money when it's their product, something that they own, and lose sales.

They sold you a copy of the game, you didn't buy the IP. You can't decide what direction the series will go, what will happen with characters, etc. But that one copy you bought, that is yours.

There is no reason, at all, to make it different from any durable product you buy. You buy a fry pan, it's yours, a car, it's yours, a house, still the same.

You bought it, you can use it, lend it, throw it away, trash it, sell it or even use it to profit from it yourself, because it's yours. And that goes to copyritghted works you bought (movies, music, games, etc.).

The thing is, people are, for some reason, accepting that the secondhand market is already theirs (the publisher's and the dev's).

It's not. It is your market.

The same goes to any market sector.

Is the gaming market any special? Does it need special treatment, that for example, the car market doesn't need? If devs and publishers entitle themselves to the secondhand market, and manage to do it (with us allowing it), why wouldn't any other company from other market sector want to do the same thing?

 

PS: one more thing. If you lend the game to your friend, like you said, he plays the game until he's done, and he still doesn't buy the game, won't the company be "losing" a sale? Imo, they're not. They already got paid for it by you. There is no reason to stablish a rule that everyone has to be the owner of the product they're using. One car per person. One movie per person, one game per person, etc. What we can demand, though, is that at least the owner allowed you to use it (since getting something from someone without their permission is stealing, like piracy for example).

Before we go further, thank you for being a rational, sane, mature gamer who can articulate points and not just post pics and say butthurt all the time. A real debate has been refreshing even though we see things very differently. Unfortunately I have to run, but will come back to answer you later. Take care.
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SambaLele

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#87 SambaLele
Member since 2004 • 5552 Posts

[QUOTE="SambaLele"]

[QUOTE="shawn30"] DRM where it is concered in terms of lending a game to a pal/friend, I want their to be no fee involved in that whatsoever so I can do that and they can play it for free. I wont argue any point counter to that. But the resell side of things, its really simple. Yes, there are more reasons developers/publishers are seeing less revenue than just used games. But the used game market and pirate markets cost them millions a year. That's a fact. So if in addition to buying a used game I am charged an additional reasonable fee (say 5 bucks or so, hopefully) I can understand that. The developers/publishers would gain additional revenue each time their product is sold, which means they stay open and save jobs. I get that point even though it will cost me more money. The gaming industry, as all industry's, is its own beast. This is the direction I see it going, and comparing it to another industry isn't always fair. I don't see it as a burden to pay a small fee more if the developers can continue making the games I enjoy and the industry prospers with added revenue all around. Its not a perfect solution, but it seems to be the one they are going with. And I don't think its the end of the world.shawn30

 

Let me quote a particular thing you said:

"But the used game market and pirate markets cost them millions a year. That's a fact."

You know why that is not a fact (in what's pertinent to used games)?

Because that's not their market.

They only lose money when it's their product, something that they own, and lose sales.

They sold you a copy of the game, you didn't buy the IP. You can't decide what direction the series will go, what will happen with characters, etc. But that one copy you bought, that is yours.

There is no reason, at all, to make it different from any durable product you buy. You buy a fry pan, it's yours, a car, it's yours, a house, still the same.

You bought it, you can use it, lend it, throw it away, trash it, sell it or even use it to profit from it yourself, because it's yours. And that goes to copyritghted works you bought (movies, music, games, etc.).

The thing is, people are, for some reason, accepting that the secondhand market is already theirs (the publisher's and the dev's).

It's not. It is your market.

The same goes to any market sector.

Is the gaming market any special? Does it need special treatment, that for example, the car market doesn't need? If devs and publishers entitle themselves to the secondhand market, and manage to do it (with us allowing it), why wouldn't any other company from other market sector want to do the same thing?

 

PS: one more thing. If you lend the game to your friend, like you said, he plays the game until he's done, and he still doesn't buy the game, won't the company be "losing" a sale? Imo, they're not. They already got paid for it by you. There is no reason to stablish a rule that everyone has to be the owner of the product they're using. One car per person. One movie per person, one game per person, etc. What we can demand, though, is that at least the owner allowed you to use it (since getting something from someone without their permission is stealing, like piracy for example).

Before we go further, thank you for being a rational, sane, mature gamer who can articulate points and not just post pics and say butthurt all the time. A real debate has been refreshing even though we see things very differently. Unfortunately I have to run, but will come back to answer you later. Take care.

Same goes to you. I'll check the thread later, and don't worry, I have no problem with anyone thinking differently, when the person is open for debate. That's the starting point of dialectics.

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StormyJoe

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#88 StormyJoe
Member since 2011 • 7806 Posts

voice ur support of no drm on twitter. i realize that u fanboys have been entrenched in this bitter war of the nerds but this is serious business. both companies are trying to screw us over and using the "anti-pirating" guise. comment on twitter using #XboxOneNoDRM and/or #PS4NoDRM and let these companies know that gamers still run this industry. not greedy company heads.

AD216

I want DRM.

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dr_jashugan

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#89 dr_jashugan
Member since 2006 • 2665 Posts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZ7v_8tMcsU&feature=youtu.be

SambaLele

THIS! Is there anyone that can improve this?

If not please post it on twitter or on any other site.

BTW, thanks TC for this thread. Here I'll lend you my PHOTON CANNON!! :cool:

ironman-super.gif

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AD216

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#90 AD216
Member since 2008 • 1719 Posts
DRM is a corrupt system and its the worst way to combat piracy. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool. Don't want your game yo get stolen? Do what a select few.developers do. Code roadblocks into the games. Bosses that can't die, guns that shoot farts, cars that can't drive. And so on.. Motokid6
exactly, its a lot of different ways to fight against pirating. making gamers pay fees and install to 1 account basically takes away the free will of a gamer. do i really have to transfer my game license from console to console if i wanna let a friend or family member borrow a game. thats ridiculous.
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AD216

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#91 AD216
Member since 2008 • 1719 Posts

[QUOTE="AD216"]

voice ur support of no drm on twitter. i realize that u fanboys have been entrenched in this bitter war of the nerds but this is serious business. both companies are trying to screw us over and using the "anti-pirating" guise. comment on twitter using #XboxOneNoDRM and/or #PS4NoDRM and let these companies know that gamers still run this industry. not greedy company heads.

StormyJoe

I want DRM.

for what reason?
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lowe0

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#92 lowe0
Member since 2004 • 13692 Posts

[QUOTE="lowe0"][QUOTE="Rocker6"]

Nothing bad with looking for a workaround if your prefered way of entertainment starts filling up with restrictive crap that gives you no benefits, only frustration.

If a DRM is bad and introduces unnecessary frustrations to your hobby and people crack it to keep things simple, they aren't douches, the biggest douches are the ones who didn't understand gaming is meant to be easy and accessible, with no hoops to jump through. You of all people should understand that, when you so often praise the simplicity of consoles as closed systems...

Do you hate the pirates so much that you'd sacriffice your own gaming experience only to see a way to potentially stop them or slow them down?

Rocker6

Honestly? Yes, because the closed DRM has no discernable impact on me. My internet connection is rock solid (the only thing Comcast does right), I don't buy or sell used games, and I don't pirate. DRM could take over the planet or disappear entirely and I'd barely notice.

What about the fact how AO-DRM eventually makes all of your game purchases obsolete, since sooner or later, the game servers will be shut down, with devs not being legally obliged to patch the game to be playable off-line?

Now, sure, some of us may have rock solid Internet connections, but many gamers don't, or they simply don't want to connect their consoles to the Internet because of the kids or whatever. Also, unexpected stuff can happen, like the storm last year that cut away my Internet for some 2 weeks. I guess game servers can also be hacked, be down a while for maintenance, or due to malfunction. Isn't it far more preferable to simply buy a game and never worry about any of that?

Given the online nature of many modern games, they're not going to work so well when the plug is pulled on the servers anyway, DRM or no. As for the legal obligation, the lack of one hasn't stopped people from using Steam, despite the mere hearsay that Valve will unlock everything you paid for. Finally, I really can't speak for those without solid connections. If a storm manages to knock a city the size of mine offline, then I have more pressing concerns (like how to do my job). But honestly, I've had no problems that I can recall with DRM. In my experience, the games still just work.
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lundy86_4

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#93 lundy86_4
Member since 2003 • 62043 Posts

Oh God, Twitter...

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jhcho2

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#94 jhcho2
Member since 2004 • 5103 Posts

voice ur support of no drm on twitter. i realize that u fanboys have been entrenched in this bitter war of the nerds but this is serious business. both companies are trying to screw us over and using the "anti-pirating" guise. comment on twitter using  #XboxOneNoDRM and/or #PS4NoDRM and let these companies know that gamers still run this industry. not greedy company heads.

AD216

You sound like someone called StoneFoxMedia on youtube.

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Rage010101

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#95 Rage010101
Member since 2006 • 5470 Posts

You console kids are so butthurt over your garbage next gen consoles it's hilarious :lol:

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NTSC-U

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#96 NTSC-U
Member since 2008 • 490 Posts

cnn's the situation room should cover this as well, as tensions are flaring.

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whiskeystrike

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#97 whiskeystrike
Member since 2011 • 12213 Posts

You console kids are so butthurt over your garbage next gen consoles it's hilarious :lol:

Rage010101

True. PC gamers are used to all the DRM.

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SexyJazzCat

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#98 SexyJazzCat
Member since 2013 • 2796 Posts

Fools. There is no escaping the leviathan that is DRM.

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jhcho2

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#99 jhcho2
Member since 2004 • 5103 Posts

You console kids are so butthurt over your garbage next gen consoles it's hilarious :lol:

Rage010101

At least they make comments on things which matter to them. You however, are making comments about things which don't matter to you. It's hard to say which one is the more pathetic - you or them

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blackace

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#100 blackace
Member since 2002 • 23576 Posts
Save gaming before the "Gaming Crash of 2014" comes