ME2 is great but I'm not sure if it should even be called an rpg.

I'm playing ME2 right and i do agree it has good production values, but i can't stand people claiming to be the best game of the century and all that. First and foremost, ME2, although being a great game, didn't even quite get it's genre classification right, and even if it did, it didn't live up to it properly.

What kind of wastern rpg almost literally makes you wear one suit of armour the whole game? Depending on the class you chose, your choice of weapons isn't much more elaborate than say.....gears of war, sometimes it feels like a lot less. If you chose Vanguard, you're pretty much stuck with a lame a*s katana shotgun for the first half of the game which takes up to 3-5 shots to kill an enemy at point black range. Even the weakest of the weakest enemies take 2 point black shots. If i'm gonna have to run so close with the 'gung-ho' attitude and still take 3 close range shots to kill a weak enemy, it isn't really a fair ooportunity cost. I can't use other weapons because it's against my "CLASS". As if survival is less important than weapon class loyalty.

The skill system is a little lackluster. 4 skills total? Oh yeah, one of them is just a passive +health, +damage thing, which everybody has...leaving only 3 skills to specialize in. And even then, three quarters through the game, you'll pretty much have all skills at max. The skills are helpful, but doesn't break or make the game either way. So you can technically add skills with your eyes closed and at the end of the day, the end product is the same.

The best things about the game is perhaps the animations, face expressions, lore and character background. But honestly, which good rpg doesn't have these things nowadays? These are the bare minimum. Everything else which should be paid attention to in an rpg is practically gone in this game. So this game is good but it didn't quite do what it supposed to do right. People are putting this game up against Uncharted 2. Uncharted 2 is an action adventure, and it did that right. Dragon is an rpg and it did it right too. This game is an action rpg. It did the action right, but not the rpg.....at least not entirely. So any game which didn't get it's genre right is deserving a 9.0 at max. It's not 9.5 worthy as some may think.

i wasn't aware that limited inventory options made it not a wrpg. also, you can not max out your skill set. there aren't enough points to go around.

Interesting. While I dont entirely agree with you, I thought you presented a well written argument. I think no game should be limited by its genre. It is what it is. Mass effect is a great shooter, has a great story, and has good RPG elements. I think that totals for a pretty good game.

It's a shooter/rpg hybrid. Everybody but you seems to know this.

oh yeah, i hate the fact that ME2 is a typical example of how a sub genre of a true rpg genre is watered down so much to cater for non thinking gamers who always want the choice of having less dialog and more action.....or perhaps less character skill diversification and more of just pure action. That's why when Dragon Age came out, many people found it difficult to accustom to the choices in dialog and skill, because games like ME2 have moulded the gaming community into thinking that rpgs are meant to be like ME2.

Your dialog is the typical 'empathatic vs jerk' responses. Suitable for those who hate reading, because the choices are listed as one liners. And the paragorn responses are mostly the top ones, while the renegade ones are at the bottom. So if reading even one liners is too much for some people's brain to take, you can just opt for 'top response' or 'bottom response' and feel save that you can maintain your alignment to what you want it to be....without having to decipher the implication of what you're saying.

Truely the rpg genre has devolved.

Also isn't the purpose of being a vanguard is to use your biotic powers!?too_much_eslim

Also isn't the purpose of being a vanguard is to use your biotic powers!?too_much_eslim

Definately a mix between close range weapons and biotic powers.

Using a Vanguard and complaining about limited weapons is silly, as it's like using a Mage and complaining about not using Broadswords and the like.

An RPG doesn\t have to follow a strict set of rules, as a dev can think outside the box and really streamline a game, without sacrificing the feel of a WRPG.

Here we go again. According to the masses here, unless the game features DnD like mechanics, it can't be considered an RPG... system wars makes me laugh.gamer620

[QUOTE="too_much_eslim"]Also isn't the purpose of being a vanguard is to use your biotic powers!?Arach666

Sorry but...every game is an RPG.

It's a shooter/rpg hybrid. Everybody but you seems to know this.

gamecubepad

ME1 was a shooter/rpg hybrid as well. The fact that they went 'more action, less rpg' proves my point. As this rate, ME3 will be closer to Gears of War then KOTOR. And eventually, it'll be rpg by name only, but not by elements.

[QUOTE="Arach666"]

[QUOTE="too_much_eslim"]Also isn't the purpose of being a vanguard is to use your biotic powers!?too_much_eslim

The term RPG gets tossed around allot this Gen.. (not saying ME2 isnt one as I haven't play it, but it looks like a great game)

oh yeah, i hate the fact that ME2 is a typical example of how a sub genre of a true rpg genre is watered down so much to cater for non thinking gamers who always want the choice of having less dialog and more action.....or perhaps less character skill diversification and more of just pure action. That's why when Dragon Age came out, many people found it difficult to accustom to the choices in dialog and skill, because games like ME2 have moulded the gaming community into thinking that rpgs are meant to be like ME2.

Your dialog is the typical 'empathatic vs jerk' responses. Suitable for those who hate reading, because the choices are listed as one liners. And the paragorn responses are mostly the top ones, while the renegade ones are at the bottom. So if reading even one liners is too much for some people's brain to take, you can just opt for 'top response' or 'bottom response' and feel save that you can maintain your alignment to what you want it to be....without having to decipher the implication of what you're saying.

Truely the rpg genre has devolved.

jhcho2

Not only ME2 is an RPG but its just what a RPG should be.

its the future, now.

oh yeah, i hate the fact that ME2 is a typical example of how a sub genre of a true rpg genre is watered down so much to cater for non thinking gamers who always want the choice of having less dialog and more action.....or perhaps less character skill diversification and more of just pure action. That's why when Dragon Age came out, many people found it difficult to accustom to the choices in dialog and skill, because games like ME2 have moulded the gaming community into thinking that rpgs are meant to be like ME2.

Your dialog is the typical 'empathatic vs jerk' responses. Suitable for those who hate reading, because the choices are listed as one liners. And the paragorn responses are mostly the top ones, while the renegade ones are at the bottom. So if reading even one liners is too much for some people's brain to take, you can just opt for 'top response' or 'bottom response' and feel save that you can maintain your alignment to what you want it to be....without having to decipher the implication of what you're saying.

Truely the rpg genre has devolved.

jhcho2

[QUOTE="too_much_eslim"][QUOTE="Arach666"] That´s the adept,I think. Vanguard is a biotic warrior(wich mixes both weapon combat and biotic powers).

Arach666

Not only ME2 is an RPG but its just what a RPG should be.

its the future, now.

padaporra

Why must a "role-playing game" have a complicated inventory, level-grinding and overly-complex character customization?

Mass Effect was a RPG/shooter hybrid from the start... but I'd like to know what exactly defines what a "RPG" is and why Mass Effect 2 "shouldn't" be considered one. The most important aspect of "role-playing," is becoming the character from the game in your mind, or as it implies, being able to see yourself as the character in game and develop around them an air that you choose.

No video game to date has captured what it means to be a true "role-playing game" like Dungeons & Dragons or World of Darkness. The game that comes closest I'd say would be Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines.

To me its just as much an RPG as it is a FPS.

50% to 50% imo.

ME2 gave me more of a RPG feel then Fallout3 did tahts forusre.

I dont understand how people can say ME2 is not a rpg at all just because it took out a horrible inventory system? Give me a break

[QUOTE="jhcho2"]

oh yeah, i hate the fact that ME2 is a typical example of how a sub genre of a true rpg genre is watered down so much to cater for non thinking gamers who always want the choice of having less dialog and more action.....or perhaps less character skill diversification and more of just pure action. That's why when Dragon Age came out, many people found it difficult to accustom to the choices in dialog and skill, because games like ME2 have moulded the gaming community into thinking that rpgs are meant to be like ME2.

Your dialog is the typical 'empathatic vs jerk' responses. Suitable for those who hate reading, because the choices are listed as one liners. And the paragorn responses are mostly the top ones, while the renegade ones are at the bottom. So if reading even one liners is too much for some people's brain to take, you can just opt for 'top response' or 'bottom response' and feel save that you can maintain your alignment to what you want it to be....without having to decipher the implication of what you're saying.

Truely the rpg genre has devolved.

Brownesque

Stupid logic. Judge a game by what it is, not whether or not it follows the conventions of its genre.

[QUOTE="gamecubepad"]

It's a shooter/rpg hybrid. Everybody but you seems to know this.

jhcho2

ME1 was a shooter/rpg hybrid as well. The fact that they went 'more action, less rpg' proves my point. As this rate, ME3 will be closer to Gears of War then KOTOR. And eventually, it'll be rpg by name only, but not by elements.

[QUOTE="Arach666"][QUOTE="too_much_eslim"] oh haven't played as a vanguard yet. After doing the engineer I am now playing as an infiltrator.too_much_eslim

It's an odd blend of rpg, adventure, and shooter. A very very tasty blend. I do think they dumbed down the rpg stuff a bit too much though.

[QUOTE="gamecubepad"]

It's a shooter/rpg hybrid. Everybody but you seems to know this.

jhcho2

ME1 was a shooter/rpg hybrid as well. The fact that they went 'more action, less rpg' proves my point. As this rate, ME3 will be closer to Gears of War then KOTOR. And eventually, it'll be rpg by name only, but not by elements.

Sure...

To me its just as much an RPG as it is a FPS.

50% to 50% imo.

ME2 gave me more of a RPG feel then Fallout3 did tahts forusre.

I dont understand how people can say ME2 is not a rpg at all just because it took out a horrible inventory system? Give me a break

kozzy1234

I wouldn't classify ME2 as purely an RPG. Instead, I refer to it as a shooter/RPG hybrid and that definition seems to work well in describing what it is.

Why must a "role-playing game" have a complicated inventory, level-grinding and overly-complex character customization?

Mass Effect was a RPG/shooter hybrid from the start... but I'd like to know what exactly defines what a "RPG" is and why Mass Effect 2 "shouldn't" be considered one. The most important aspect of "role-playing," is becoming the character from the game in your mind, or as it implies, being able to see yourself as the character in game and develop around them an air that you choose.

No video game to date has captured what it means to be a true "role-playing game" like Dungeons & Dragons or World of Darkness. The game that comes closest I'd say would be Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines.

foxhound_fox

Mass Effect 1 also had one of the most complicated inventory systems I've ever seen in my life. It was incredibly tedious to pawn gear. These are my concerns and my question is to what extent Mass Effect 2 solves these issues.

And complex character customization doesn't hurt anything. It allows you to breathe life in your character and make it your ideal instead of just making it you with FPS mechanics you've trudged over a thousand times. If I want a shooter I can play COD. I don't understand why my reflexes or my eye-hand coordination are in any way central to the RPG core or in making it more interesting. I want something fresh, not something derivative for the sake of appealing to the lowest common denominator.

[QUOTE="too_much_eslim"]

[QUOTE="Arach666"] Going for the hard classes,eh? Nice. ;) I´m playing as a vanguard myself,might try the infiltrator in my 2nd run. How are you liking playing the infiltrator so far?Arach666

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]

Why must a "role-playing game" have a complicated inventory, level-grinding and overly-complex character customization?

Mass Effect was a RPG/shooter hybrid from the start... but I'd like to know what exactly defines what a "RPG" is and why Mass Effect 2 "shouldn't" be considered one. The most important aspect of "role-playing," is becoming the character from the game in your mind, or as it implies, being able to see yourself as the character in game and develop around them an air that you choose.

No video game to date has captured what it means to be a true "role-playing game" like Dungeons & Dragons or World of Darkness. The game that comes closest I'd say would be Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines.

Brownesque

Mass Effect 1 also had one of the most complicated inventory systems I've ever seen in my life. It was incredibly tedious to pawn gear. These are my concerns and my question is to what extent Mass Effect 2 solves these issues.

And complex character customization doesn't hurt anything. It allows you to breathe life in your character and make it your ideal instead of just making it you with FPS mechanics you've trudged over a thousand times. If I want a shooter I can play COD. I don't understand why my reflexes or my eye-hand coordination are in any way central to the RPG core or in making it more interesting. I want something fresh, not something derivative for the sake of appealing to the lowest common denominator.

Why must a "role-playing game" have a complicated inventory, level-grinding and overly-complex character customization?

Mass Effect was a RPG/shooter hybrid from the start... but I'd like to know what exactly defines what a "RPG" is and why Mass Effect 2 "shouldn't" be considered one. The most important aspect of "role-playing," is becoming the character from the game in your mind, or as it implies, being able to see yourself as the character in game and develop around them an air that you choose.

No video game to date has captured what it means to be a true "role-playing game" like Dungeons & Dragons or World of Darkness. The game that comes closest I'd say would be Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines.

foxhound_fox

As much as you'd hate to admit it, genres are defined by convention. D&D games generally defined the genre, so it's used as a benchmark. Dune define the real time strategy genre, so for a game to be considered a 'strategy' game, it has to follow the Dune 2, Warcraft, C&C mechanics. Because if you want to define the genre by what the grammatical meaning of what the genre means, then technically, every game is a strategy game, because you generally strategize in every game. How about 'action' games? All RTS games have 'action', but you can't call it an 'action' game just because it has action. Genres are pre-defined. That's just the way it is.

[QUOTE="padaporra"]

Not only ME2 is an RPG but its just what a RPG should be.

its the future, now.

Brownesque

.

well, I don't like RPG, I never did. And belive me, I tryed a lot... I could name some 10 RPG's that I started playing and dropped. However, I loved KoTOR... one of my favorite games and after a while a realized why, its was because how you affect the world, how that was my history and the characters were simply awesome. Now, thats what RPG should be about for me, and thats just what ME2 is better than any other game out there.

.

So, I think battles should be decided by your skill not by some random dice roll... not you need to stay killing enemys over and over again to level up. Or getting weapon by chance.

.

Maybe I'm not saying that the RPG elements were not dumbed down, but that ME2 is what a game with its objectives should be... I really think that the classic RPG is outdated. Well, they always were for me. But now I do have a game that is just what I thought a RPG should be.

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]

Why must a "role-playing game" have a complicated inventory, level-grinding and overly-complex character customization?

Mass Effect was a RPG/shooter hybrid from the start... but I'd like to know what exactly defines what a "RPG" is and why Mass Effect 2 "shouldn't" be considered one. The most important aspect of "role-playing," is becoming the character from the game in your mind, or as it implies, being able to see yourself as the character in game and develop around them an air that you choose.

No video game to date has captured what it means to be a true "role-playing game" like Dungeons & Dragons or World of Darkness. The game that comes closest I'd say would be Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines.

jhcho2

As much as you'd hate to admit it, genres are defined by convention. D&D games generally defined the genre, so it's used as a benchmark. Dune define the real time strategy genre, so for a game to be considered a 'strategy' game, it has to follow the Dune 2, Warcraft, C&C mechanics. Because if you want to define the genre by what the grammatical meaning of what the genre means, then technically, every game is a strategy game, because you generally strategize in every game. How about 'action' games? All RTS games have 'action', but you can't call it an 'action' game just because it has action. Genres are pre-defined. That's just the way it is.

[QUOTE="Brownesque"][QUOTE="padaporra"]

Not only ME2 is an RPG but its just what a RPG should be.

its the future, now.

padaporra

.

well, I don't like RPG, I never did. And belive me, I tryed a lot... I could name some 10 RPG's that I started playing and dropped. However, I loved KoTOR... one of my favorite games and after a while a realized why, its was because how you affect the world, how that was my history and the characters were simply awesome. Now, thats what RPG should be about for me, and thats just what ME2 is better than any other game out there.

.

So, I think battles should be decided by your skill not by some random dice roll... not you need to stay killing enemys over and over again to level up. Or getting weapon by chance.

.

Maybe I'm not saying that the RPG elements were not dumbed down, but that ME2 is what a game with its objectives should be... I really think that the classic RPG is outdated. Well, they always were for me. But now I do have a game that is just what I thought a RPG should be.

[QUOTE="too_much_eslim"]Also isn't the purpose of being a vanguard is to use your biotic powers!?lundy86_4

Definately a mix between close range weapons and biotic powers.

Using a Vanguard and complaining about limited weapons is silly, as it's like using a Mage and complaining about not using Broadswords and the like.

An RPG doesn\t have to follow a strict set of rules, as a dev can think outside the box and really streamline a game, without sacrificing the feel of a WRPG.

Actually it's a valid complaint. Vanguards are supposed to be rush, knockdown and kill. But with the shotgun so underpowered, the concept just fails. In the end, cover and shoot yields better results, and less reloading due to lower risk of death. And you don't even have the choice to rectify the failed concept because you can only use this gun and not that gun.

So, even if you were up against a collossus with say...3 life bars - shield, armour and health respectively, you still have to use a shotgun. Nobody is saying that you have to be equally good in all weapons. They could have given you a penalty or something, but at least could have let you used a sniper rifle or something. What this game was lacking severely is choice.

I've given up trying to define the RPG genre considering how diluted it has become over the years, back in the day it was stuff like Fallout and Torment, now pretty much any genre with stats thrown in can call itself a RPG.

I think it more an RPG-TPS Hybrid then a true WRPG (i.e. Dragon Age). ME2 is like two genres put together to make a super genre.

[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

[QUOTE="too_much_eslim"]Also isn't the purpose of being a vanguard is to use your biotic powers!?jhcho2

Definately a mix between close range weapons and biotic powers.

Using a Vanguard and complaining about limited weapons is silly, as it's like using a Mage and complaining about not using Broadswords and the like.

An RPG doesn\t have to follow a strict set of rules, as a dev can think outside the box and really streamline a game, without sacrificing the feel of a WRPG.

Actually it's a valid complaint. Vanguards are supposed to be rush, knockdown and kill. But with the shotgun so underpowered, the concept just fails. In the end, cover and shoot yields better results, and less reloading due to lower risk of death. And you don't even have the choice to rectify the failed concept because you can only use this gun and not that gun.

So, even if you were up against a collossus with say...3 life bars - shield, armour and health respectively, you still have to use a shotgun. Nobody is saying that you have to be equally good in all weapons. They could have given you a penalty or something, but at least could have let you used a sniper rifle or something. What this game was lacking severely is choice.

[QUOTE="Brownesque"][QUOTE="padaporra"]

Not only ME2 is an RPG but its just what a RPG should be.

its the future, now.

padaporra

.

well, I don't like RPG, I never did. And belive me, I tryed a lot... I could name some 10 RPG's that I started playing and dropped. However, I loved KoTOR... one of my favorite games and after a while a realized why, its was because how you affect the world, how that was my history and the characters were simply awesome. Now, thats what RPG should be about for me, and thats just what ME2 is better than any other game out there.

.

So, I think battles should be decided by your skill not by some random dice roll... not you need to stay killing enemys over and over again to level up. Or getting weapon by chance.

.

Maybe I'm not saying that the RPG elements were not dumbed down, but that ME2 is what a game with its objectives should be... I really think that the classic RPG is outdated. Well, they always were for me. But now I do have a game that is just what I thought a RPG should be.

Well, if you generally hate most rpgs, then what validates your opinion of what an rpg SHOULD be? How do you even know what an rpg game is suppsoed to be like in the first place if you practically dropped out from most of them?

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]

Why must a "role-playing game" have a complicated inventory, level-grinding and overly-complex character customization?

Mass Effect was a RPG/shooter hybrid from the start... but I'd like to know what exactly defines what a "RPG" is and why Mass Effect 2 "shouldn't" be considered one. The most important aspect of "role-playing," is becoming the character from the game in your mind, or as it implies, being able to see yourself as the character in game and develop around them an air that you choose.

No video game to date has captured what it means to be a true "role-playing game" like Dungeons & Dragons or World of Darkness. The game that comes closest I'd say would be Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines.

jhcho2

As much as you'd hate to admit it, genres are defined by convention. D&D games generally defined the genre, so it's used as a benchmark. Dune define the real time strategy genre, so for a game to be considered a 'strategy' game, it has to follow the Dune 2, Warcraft, C&C mechanics. Because if you want to define the genre by what the grammatical meaning of what the genre means, then technically, every game is a strategy game, because you generally strategize in every game. How about 'action' games? All RTS games have 'action', but you can't call it an 'action' game just because it has action. Genres are pre-defined. That's just the way it is.

genres can be redefined.

[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

[QUOTE="too_much_eslim"]Also isn't the purpose of being a vanguard is to use your biotic powers!?jhcho2

Definately a mix between close range weapons and biotic powers.

Using a Vanguard and complaining about limited weapons is silly, as it's like using a Mage and complaining about not using Broadswords and the like.

An RPG doesn\t have to follow a strict set of rules, as a dev can think outside the box and really streamline a game, without sacrificing the feel of a WRPG.

Actually it's a valid complaint. Vanguards are supposed to be rush, knockdown and kill. But with the shotgun so underpowered, the concept just fails. In the end, cover and shoot yields better results, and less reloading due to lower risk of death. And you don't even have the choice to rectify the failed concept because you can only use this gun and not that gun.

So, even if you were up against a collossus with say...3 life bars - shield, armour and health respectively, you still have to use a shotgun. Nobody is saying that you have to be equally good in all weapons. They could have given you a penalty or something, but at least could have let you used a sniper rifle or something. What this game was lacking severely is choice.

"Vanguards are supposed to be rush, knockdown and kill."

^^ Is this stated anywhere? Serious question.

You can use a Sniper Rifle, later.

[spoiler] On the Collector Ship, you have the option to train in a weapon. I chose the Assualt Rifle. [/spoiler]

[QUOTE="jhcho2"]

[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

Definately a mix between close range weapons and biotic powers.

Using a Vanguard and complaining about limited weapons is silly, as it's like using a Mage and complaining about not using Broadswords and the like.

An RPG doesn\t have to follow a strict set of rules, as a dev can think outside the box and really streamline a game, without sacrificing the feel of a WRPG.

too_much_eslim

Actually it's a valid complaint. Vanguards are supposed to be rush, knockdown and kill. But with the shotgun so underpowered, the concept just fails. In the end, cover and shoot yields better results, and less reloading due to lower risk of death. And you don't even have the choice to rectify the failed concept because you can only use this gun and not that gun.

So, even if you were up against a collossus with say...3 life bars - shield, armour and health respectively, you still have to use a shotgun. Nobody is saying that you have to be equally good in all weapons. They could have given you a penalty or something, but at least could have let you used a sniper rifle or something. What this game was lacking severely is choice.

Exactly.

If you research for added Shotgun damage, it can become quite useful.

[QUOTE="jhcho2"]

[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

Definately a mix between close range weapons and biotic powers.

Using a Vanguard and complaining about limited weapons is silly, as it's like using a Mage and complaining about not using Broadswords and the like.

An RPG doesn\t have to follow a strict set of rules, as a dev can think outside the box and really streamline a game, without sacrificing the feel of a WRPG.

too_much_eslim

Actually it's a valid complaint. Vanguards are supposed to be rush, knockdown and kill. But with the shotgun so underpowered, the concept just fails. In the end, cover and shoot yields better results, and less reloading due to lower risk of death. And you don't even have the choice to rectify the failed concept because you can only use this gun and not that gun.

So, even if you were up against a collossus with say...3 life bars - shield, armour and health respectively, you still have to use a shotgun. Nobody is saying that you have to be equally good in all weapons. They could have given you a penalty or something, but at least could have let you used a sniper rifle or something. What this game was lacking severely is choice.

Well, upgrading is not all that simple. You must first find the tech. And even then, you may not have the zero elements to do it. Either way, the tech and zero elements don't fall from the sky as i'd hope.