MGS4, GT5 and FFXIII... explain this to me.

Before I start this and before you read this, I want you think in your head, "what makes a game a system seller?" How many sales does a game need in any country to be a system seller? I want you remember the numbers that you thought of, jot them down and then continue reading.

The 3 guarenteed knockouts Sony fans tout (and are 100% bankable titles as opposed to sequels to games that performed poorly in both reviews and sales or new series which could easily flop or be a hit) are MGS4, FFXIII and GT5.

MGS2 (http://vgchartz.com/games/game.php?id=3774)... sales of less than one million in Japan. Sales of 2.25 million in the US. MGS3 (http://vgchartz.com/games/game.php?id=1328) sold even worse. That will not swing the PS3 to victory in North America and Japan is even less interested in it than we are. That will hardly help it turn the tide in the home country. Bottom line: MGS is a non-factor in Japan and is about isn't anywhere near being a bonafide system seller in the US.

Final Fantasy... X saw alot of love on a global level (over 2 million everywhere) for a total of. I didn't see realistic sales for XI (everything seemed super low (like less than 200K) so i'm assuming vgchartz is missing the main SKU. So I won't comment on it. X2 (http://vgchartz.com/games/game.php?id=760) sold well in japan, but in the US it sold less than 2 million copies. Everywhere else it didn't even sell 1 million copies. XII... sold well in Japan but in the US it was only 1.7 million copies (http://vgchartz.com/games/game.php?id=765). Everywhere else it didn't even sell a million copies. Undeniable trend: sales are dropping on the series when you compare all the PS2 games that I saw on VGchartz (X, X2, XII). In the US it sales moderately well, but like MGS, its not a bonafide system seller here. It won't help that massive chasm in sales difference in NA. In Japan, who knows. The Wii is moving just ridiculous numbers. In Japan its like one console wins, everyone else dies a merciless death and right now its the Wii thats doing the winning.

Gran Turismo... finally a bonafide system seller. GT3 (http://vgchartz.com/games/game.php?id=886) did decent in Japan. And amazingly great everywhere else. GT4 (http://vgchartz.com/games/game.php?id=887) Sales of 1.26 in Japan, 2.63 in US and everything else worldwide. In Japan its not that strong. It sells good (comparable to Assasin's Creed... which hasn't even been out a whole month yet). In the US its good, but not really great sales. Other is where the game shines. But as you can see, the sales are decreasing (http://vgchartz.com/games/index.php?name=gran+turismo&console=&publisher=&genre=&keyword=&order=Last+Updated). GT3 is almost an outlier because it sold millions more than all GT games before it and all GT games after itThis will definately help the PS3 in Europe. Everywhere else its just OK.

AND THESE ARE THE TIDE TURNING SERIES OF 2008!!!!!!! One series that Japan doesn't care at all about and only gets decent US sales and another series that series that only Japan cares about (but is being released on a system thats outsold like 4:1)... and GT5. Two games that will do well when you total the sales but are only decent/mediocre sellers in each region (with some being borderline flops in certain regions) Halo 3 (http://vgchartz.com/games/game.php?id=6964) has sold more copies in the US in 2 months than any two titles (pick from MGS2, MGS3, FFX, FFX2, FFXII... I don't have the data but i'm pretty sure you add FFXI) have sold in years on the US market. Thats (Halo) a "system seller". The next versions of these games (FF, MGS) will not turn the tide in the US and will only lead to marginal improvements in Japan. When you analyze it with stats, sales trends, numbers and a healthy dose of reality, you only have Gran Turismo.

In 2008, the 360 will continue to sell amazingly well in the US. It will continue to lose Japan but do far better than the original XBox ever did. It will continue to sell decent everywhere else. The PS3 will continue to do mediocre in the in everywhere but Europe and will only see sales boost every now and then.

There are other potential hits, but they are just potential hits and can be matched with the potential hits of every other system.

If you wish to go against anything I've said, I need you to post the data that makes you reach these conclusions and the sources for any numbers. Otherwise its just fanboyism with numbers generated from thin air and logic based on stats that are pure fantasy.

MGS4 will sell much more than MGS3 due to a lack of quality software on the PS3.

Low saturation of AAA games = more sales when an AAA game arrives.

That is just basic logic, and it goes for FFXIII as well.

you do realize you just posted about 10 million sales for just the USA in three games right?

and...

you left out the fact that Two different FFIII are coming out. that another two million at least.

1. My point was to illustrate that we call these titles system sellers but they don't sell amazingly well everywhere. Japan is not so small that a title that moves less than 1 million unts will have units flying off the shelf left and right (MGS). The US isn't small enough to where a series that only sales 2 million units will turn the tide (FF, MGS) and help a system move over 6 million units. Gran Turismo will be a beast. Anyone who denies that title is lying to themselves, but that is the only one. Everything else is just ok when you look at the numbers. And really numbers are all that matters. Hype doesn't count for crap. This is a NA board but from the talk you'd think FF,MGS were selling like 5 million copies over here. The best one (sales wise) sold 3.08M ( FF7 http://vgchartz.com/games/game.php?id=756 ). If hypers wouldn't spill $50 for the game, what on earth makes you think they'll spend $60 for the game and $399 for the system?

Or if you count those as system sellers, you can say that any title that moves 2 million in NA is a system seller for Na. Any title that moves 1M in japan is a system seller for Japan. If you do that than you have these massive list and it basically changes that every game that even does decent sales is a "system seller" with some games being moreso than others.

Not only that, but some of these titles came out in the heyday of the PS2. When the install base was 40 million plus+. The PS3 install base is nowehere near that and even if 2008 turned out to be a Wii like year for Sony, the install base (which is the POTENTIAL BUYER BASE) would barely be half of that.

2. Also, if vgchartz can't be trusted, who can we trust? Also, explain to me why they can't be trusted. No site is 100% accurate, but their numbers do fall in line with what everyone else reports. Once again, I need a reason based off of fact and logic, not just something that you feel like saying at the moment.

3. LOL @ Wikipedia being mentioned. I hope you aren't slyly trying to imply that Wikipedia is a more accurate source than vgchartz. vgchartz at least uses sampling (which is an accepted business practice for every industry and is even used by the federal government) and reports from other trusted sources (Famitsu, etc). Anyone can edit wikipedia to say what they want.

MGS4 will sell much more than MGS3 due to a lack of quality software on the PS3.

Low saturation of AAA games = more sales when an AAA game arrives.

That is just basic logic, and it goes for FFXIII as well.

DaveyDeathblade

Thats actually flawed logic because it assumes that everything else is equal. A lack of quality software (which you just admitted) greatly hurts the attractivness of the system to potential buyers. Not only that, but your argument also assumes an equal install base, which we can also say is nowhere near what the PS2 was at when MGS3 launched.

I can play this game too.

Since this is gamespot, let's use the old, tired logic that gamespot=truth. That being said, here are some articles.

http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/adventure/mgs3subsistence/news.html?sid=6131345

http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/adventure/metalgearsolid2sonsol/news.html?sid=2833634

http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/adventure/metalgearsolid2sonsol/news.html?sid=2847978

"Konami's Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty was the best-selling console game in November, followed by Grand Theft Auto III, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3, Harry Potter: The Sorcerer's Stone, Madden NFL 2002, and WWF Smackdown!"

Sounds like a system seller to me!

Funny how lemmings say "who cares about teh japan" but you got one here using that in their defense.

However, you attempt to point out how the sales of these games are bad, yet it just completely smacks lemmings in the face. Every non-cow on here basically says "the sales teh suxor developers are gonna jump ship!"

I'll leave you fanboys to argue about nonsense though.

Try bashing something that hasn't been done three billion times already.

FF is the 4 best selling franchise, GT is the 11 and metal gear is the 20, having sold as much as the halo series.

How are them not system sellers?

Uh...

1. Don't use VGChartz if you can help it. Even Wikipedia's better.

2. Let's take a look at the numbers, shall we?

MGS: 6.6 million, 7th best selling game for Playstation. To put into context. It outsold SSB for N64 and outsold FF VIII.

MGS2: 7 million, 6th best selling game for PS2. To put into context, it outsold FFX.

MGS3: 3.7 million, 10th best selling game for PS2.

MGS4: ? Will sell a couple million somehow. Will sell some systems for sure.

Let's stick with the last couple FF games to get a good sense of current feelings for the series.

FFX: 7th best selling game for PS2, 6 million.

FF XII (not talking about FF XI): 9th best selling game on PS2, sold about 3.9 million copies. To give an example of how insane people are about this series, it sold over 1.7 million copies in Japan in its first week alone, and shiped over 1.5 million in the US in its first week. I'll agree it's not as insane as it was ten years ago, but it's stil a game people go crazy for and some people will buy systems for.

GT: Well, you said GT is a system seller, and good thing you grudgingly admitted it because 'system seller' barely begins to describe this game's selling potential.

GT: BEST SELLING game for PS1. 11 million copies.

GT2: 3rd best selling game for PS1, 9.37 million copies

GT3: 14.87 million, BEST SELLING ps2 game (debatable, controversy between this and Vice City, flips back and forth depending on who you ask)

GT4: 9.52 million, 5th best selling PS2 game.

Let's show the Prologues...

GT Concept: 1.56 million

GT4 Prologue: 1.36 million

COME ON. There's no question that these games are system sellers. Granted, FF has been getting more and more hardcore, with lots of boring grinding and tedious sidequests, MGS is kind of a gamer's game, and GT series sales aren't just 'ok'. They're bloody insane. GT is THE biggest release of next year by FAR. It might be the biggest release of this generation. It's a HUGE system seller.

As for sources...

For the GT numbers, just check the gran turismo wesite. They post sales figures on it (braggarts).

For MGS...

http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/adventure/metalgearsolid2sonsol/news_2847978.html

For MGS2...

http://www.contactmusic.com/new/home.nsf/webpages/metalgearsolid3x21x05x03

For MGS3...

http://www.konami.jp/gs/game/mgs3_sub/uk/mgs/mgs3.html

For FFX...

http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/rpg/finalfantasyx2/news_6086686.html

For FF XII...

Japan

http://www.square-enix.com/na/company/press/2006/0628/

US

http://www.insomniacgames.com/tech/articles/1107/files/fantasy_of_the_familiar.ppt

Don't know Europe, haven't included it. Should add at least another million.

DO NOT USE VGCHARTZ.

Final Fantasy has sold over 90 million copies worldwide, making it one of the five biggest selling franchises of all time.

Metal Gear Solid is HUGE in Japan.

Grand Turismo was the biggest selling PS1 game.

PS3 is doing better than 360 in Japan.

End thread.

Uh...

1. Don't use VGChartz if you can help it. Even Wikipedia's better.

2. Let's take a look at the numbers, shall we?

MGS: 6.6 million, 7th best selling game for Playstation. To put into context. It outsold SSB for N64 and outsold FF VIII.

MGS2: 7 million, 6th best selling game for PS2. To put into context, it outsold FFX.

MGS3: 3.7 million, 10th best selling game for PS2.

MGS4: ? Will sell a couple million somehow. Will sell some systems for sure.

Let's stick with the last couple FF games to get a good sense of current feelings for the series.

FFX: 7th best selling game for PS2, 6 million.

FF XII (not talking about FF XI): 9th best selling game on PS2, sold about 3.9 million copies. To give an example of how insane people are about this series, it sold over 1.7 million copies in Japan in its first week alone, and shiped over 1.5 million in the US in its first week. I'll agree it's not as insane as it was ten years ago, but it's stil a game people go crazy for and some people will buy systems for.

GT: Well, you said GT is a system seller, and good thing you grudgingly admitted it because 'system seller' barely begins to describe this game's selling potential.

GT: BEST SELLING game for PS1. 11 million copies.

GT2: 3rd best selling game for PS1, 9.37 million copies

GT3: 14.87 million, BEST SELLING ps2 game (debatable, controversy between this and Vice City, flips back and forth depending on who you ask)

GT4: 9.52 million, 5th best selling PS2 game.

Let's show the Prologues...

GT Concept: 1.56 million

GT4 Prologue: 1.36 million

COME ON. There's no question that these games are system sellers. Granted, FF has been getting more and more hardcore, with lots of boring grinding and tedious sidequests, MGS is kind of a gamer's game, and GT series sales aren't just 'ok'. They're bloody insane. GT is THE biggest release of next year by FAR. It might be the biggest release of this generation. It's a HUGE system seller.

As for sources...

For the GT numbers, just check the gran turismo wesite. They post sales figures on it (braggarts).

For MGS...

http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/adventure/metalgearsolid2sonsol/news_2847978.html

For MGS2...

http://www.contactmusic.com/new/home.nsf/webpages/metalgearsolid3x21x05x03

For MGS3...

http://www.konami.jp/gs/game/mgs3_sub/uk/mgs/mgs3.html

For FFX...

http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/rpg/finalfantasyx2/news_6086686.html

For FF XII...

Japan

http://www.square-enix.com/na/company/press/2006/0628/

US

http://www.insomniacgames.com/tech/articles/1107/files/fantasy_of_the_familiar.ppt

Don't know Europe, haven't included it. Should add at least another million.

DO NOT USE VGCHARTZ.

osirisomeomi

Yeah what he said

Which one of these are more likely:

MGS4, GT5, and FFXII are system sellers?

or

MGS4, GT5, and FFXII will sell a million at day one?

Which one of these are more likely:

MGS4, GT5, and FFXII are system sellers?

or

MGS4, GT5, and FFXII will not sell a million at day one?

ReverseCycology

Which one of these are more likely:

MGS4, GT5, and FFXII are system sellers?

or

MGS4, GT5, and FFXII will not sell a million at day one?

ReverseCycology

False dichotomy, fallacious logic.

[QUOTE="ReverseCycology"]

Which one of these are more likely:

MGS4, GT5, and FFXII are system sellers?

or

MGS4, GT5, and FFXII will not sell a million at day one?

fuzzysquash

False dichotomy, fallacious logic.

Fancy words.:|

What the Ps3 needs to do is find a nitch and build it up so ALL of sertain types of gamers go there. (We all know that the 360 has most of the 1st person shooter/war gamers and the wii has 20 years of built up fans/casuals)

If I were them I would focus on RPG and Racing games. (areas that no one is super strong in right now.

[QUOTE="fuzzysquash"][QUOTE="ReverseCycology"]

Which one of these are more likely:

MGS4, GT5, and FFXII are system sellers?

or

MGS4, GT5, and FFXII will not sell a million at day one?

DarkCloud79

False dichotomy, fallacious logic.

Fancy words.:|

Not really, just English ones.

I really hope that the next FF is more approachable. FF X and FF XII were both extremely hardcore. FF X had the sphere grid (i know it's not too hard, but it overly complicated things for less intense gamers), the weapon customization, the insane sidequests and surprisingly tough endgame battles, FF XII was a joke in terms of difficulty (main game) but the gambit system automatically cut out a huge chunk of gamers who don't like programming AI behaviours. I bought FF XII, played 38 hours of it, then realized when fighting that I had only touched the analog sticks for the last HOUR.

The next FF needs to work on its mass appeal. Don't nerf the series, but take a look at games like FF VII, that anyone could play. FF VIII was too complicated again with junctioning/drawing...

As for MGS, they're working on making it more mass appeal. They just need to get the marketing right and it'll sell like crazy. I hope.

They are system sellers, whether one chooses to believe it or not.Sir-Marwin105

They will sell systems, but will they sell enough to make a diffrence?

[QUOTE="Sir-Marwin105"]They are system sellers, whether one chooses to believe it or not.Guiltfeeder566

They will sell systems, but will they sell enough to make a diffrence?

Yes.

[QUOTE="Guiltfeeder566"]

[QUOTE="Sir-Marwin105"]They are system sellers, whether one chooses to believe it or not.fuzzysquash

They will sell systems, but will they sell enough to make a diffrence?

Yes.

I think your other thread rebuked this thread some three+ months ago.

[QUOTE="fuzzysquash"][QUOTE="Guiltfeeder566"]

[QUOTE="Sir-Marwin105"]They are system sellers, whether one chooses to believe it or not.Datheron

They will sell systems, but will they sell enough to make a diffrence?

Yes.

I think your other thread rebuked this thread some three+ months ago.

lol, thanks friend. But I guess it's the nature of SW that debunked topics tend to repeat themselves.

When someone thinks of the PS3 what games come to mind, umm lets see FF13 MGS4 oh and Gt5....so lets see if somone is going to say buy the sytem, and these games are the most talked about and are the ones on there minds the mostthen yes I would say they are system sellers wouldn't you?

If you think these games witch are synonymous with the PS3, are not going to be system sellers, then what the heck do you think will be?

Oh and remember this is the next gen and they areNEW GAMES past sales have nothing to do with this.

[QUOTE="osirisomeomi"]

Uh...

1. Don't use VGChartz if you can help it. Even Wikipedia's better.

2. Let's take a look at the numbers, shall we?

MGS: 6.6 million, 7th best selling game for Playstation. To put into context. It outsold SSB for N64 and outsold FF VIII.

MGS2: 7 million, 6th best selling game for PS2. To put into context, it outsold FFX.

MGS3: 3.7 million, 10th best selling game for PS2.

MGS4: ? Will sell a couple million somehow. Will sell some systems for sure.

Let's stick with the last couple FF games to get a good sense of current feelings for the series.

FFX: 7th best selling game for PS2, 6 million.

FF XII (not talking about FF XI): 9th best selling game on PS2, sold about 3.9 million copies. To give an example of how insane people are about this series, it sold over 1.7 million copies in Japan in its first week alone, and shiped over 1.5 million in the US in its first week. I'll agree it's not as insane as it was ten years ago, but it's stil a game people go crazy for and some people will buy systems for.

GT: Well, you said GT is a system seller, and good thing you grudgingly admitted it because 'system seller' barely begins to describe this game's selling potential.

GT: BEST SELLING game for PS1. 11 million copies.

GT2: 3rd best selling game for PS1, 9.37 million copies

GT3: 14.87 million, BEST SELLING ps2 game (debatable, controversy between this and Vice City, flips back and forth depending on who you ask)

GT4: 9.52 million, 5th best selling PS2 game.

Let's show the Prologues...

GT Concept: 1.56 million

GT4 Prologue: 1.36 million

COME ON. There's no question that these games are system sellers. Granted, FF has been getting more and more hardcore, with lots of boring grinding and tedious sidequests, MGS is kind of a gamer's game, and GT series sales aren't just 'ok'. They're bloody insane. GT is THE biggest release of next year by FAR. It might be the biggest release of this generation. It's a HUGE system seller.

As for sources...

For the GT numbers, just check the gran turismo wesite. They post sales figures on it (braggarts).

For MGS...

http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/adventure/metalgearsolid2sonsol/news_2847978.html

For MGS2...

http://www.contactmusic.com/new/home.nsf/webpages/metalgearsolid3x21x05x03

For MGS3...

http://www.konami.jp/gs/game/mgs3_sub/uk/mgs/mgs3.html

For FFX...

http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/rpg/finalfantasyx2/news_6086686.html

For FF XII...

Japan

http://www.square-enix.com/na/company/press/2006/0628/

US

http://www.insomniacgames.com/tech/articles/1107/files/fantasy_of_the_familiar.ppt

Don't know Europe, haven't included it. Should add at least another million.

DO NOT USE VGCHARTZ.

EPaul

Yeah what he said

Ownage approved!

Before I start this and before you read this, I want you think in your head, "what makes a game a system seller?" How many sales does a game need in any country to be a system seller? I want you remember the numbers that you thought of, jot them down and then continue reading.

The 3 guarenteed knockouts Sony fans tout (and are 100% bankable titles as opposed to sequels to games that performed poorly in both reviews and sales or new series which could easily flop or be a hit) are MGS4, FFXIII and GT5.

MGS2 (http://vgchartz.com/games/game.php?id=3774)... sales of less than one million in Japan. Sales of 2.25 million in the US. MGS3 (http://vgchartz.com/games/game.php?id=1328) sold even worse. That will not swing the PS3 to victory in North America and Japan is even less interested in it than we are. That will hardly help it turn the tide in the home country. Bottom line: MGS is a non-factor in Japan and is about isn't anywhere near being a bonafide system seller in the US.

Final Fantasy... X saw alot of love on a global level (over 2 million everywhere) for a total of. I didn't see realistic sales for XI (everything seemed super low (like less than 200K) so i'm assuming vgchartz is missing the main SKU. So I won't comment on it. X2 (http://vgchartz.com/games/game.php?id=760) sold well in japan, but in the US it sold less than 2 million copies. Everywhere else it didn't even sell 1 million copies. XII... sold well in Japan but in the US it was only 1.7 million copies (http://vgchartz.com/games/game.php?id=765). Everywhere else it didn't even sell a million copies. Undeniable trend: sales are dropping on the series when you compare all the PS2 games that I saw on VGchartz (X, X2, XII). In the US it sales moderately well, but like MGS, its not a bonafide system seller here. It won't help that massive chasm in sales difference in NA. In Japan, who knows. The Wii is moving just ridiculous numbers. In Japan its like one console wins, everyone else dies a merciless death and right now its the Wii thats doing the winning.

Gran Turismo... finally a bonafide system seller. GT3 (http://vgchartz.com/games/game.php?id=886) did decent in Japan. And amazingly great everywhere else. GT4 (http://vgchartz.com/games/game.php?id=887) Sales of 1.26 in Japan, 2.63 in US and everything else worldwide. In Japan its not that strong. It sells good (comparable to Assasin's Creed... which hasn't even been out a whole month yet). In the US its good, but not really great sales. Other is where the game shines. But as you can see, the sales are decreasing (http://vgchartz.com/games/index.php?name=gran+turismo&console=&publisher=&genre=&keyword=&order=Last+Updated). GT3 is almost an outlier because it sold millions more than all GT games before it and all GT games after itThis will definately help the PS3 in Europe. Everywhere else its just OK.

AND THESE ARE THE TIDE TURNING SERIES OF 2008!!!!!!! One series that Japan doesn't care at all about and only gets decent US sales and another series that series that only Japan cares about (but is being released on a system thats outsold like 4:1)... and GT5. Two games that will do well when you total the sales but are only decent/mediocre sellers in each region (with some being borderline flops in certain regions) Halo 3 (http://vgchartz.com/games/game.php?id=6964) has sold more copies in the US in 2 months than any two titles (pick from MGS2, MGS3, FFX, FFX2, FFXII... I don't have the data but i'm pretty sure you add FFXI) have sold in years on the US market. Thats (Halo) a "system seller". The next versions of these games (FF, MGS) will not turn the tide in the US and will only lead to marginal improvements in Japan. When you analyze it with stats, sales trends, numbers and a healthy dose of reality, you only have Gran Turismo.

In 2008, the 360 will continue to sell amazingly well in the US. It will continue to lose Japan but do far better than the original XBox ever did. It will continue to sell decent everywhere else. The PS3 will continue to do mediocre in the in everywhere but Europe and will only see sales boost every now and then.

There are other potential hits, but they are just potential hits and can be matched with the potential hits of every other system.

If you wish to go against anything I've said, I need you to post the data that makes you reach these conclusions and the sources for any numbers. Otherwise its just fanboyism with numbers generated from thin air and logic based on stats that are pure fantasy.

MrSickVisionz

OMFG!! everybody that says a certain game is a system seller without proof should be banned!! all you did here was just state how much each of those games have sold!! for all we know half the amount of those software sales = the amount of hardware sales!!