MS: TFLOPS aren't important. What developers build is what counts.

https://wccftech.com/microsoft-we-could-have-used-variable-clocks-for-xsx-but-were-not-interested-in-tflops-numbers/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

In a new interview published on Spanish site Xataka, Director of Program Management for Xbox Series X Jason Ronald said that Microsoft could have easily used the same approach to reach a higher theoretical TFLOPS figure, but that would have made it harder for developers to optimize their games.

We focus on optimizing the developer experience to deliver the best possible experience for players, rather than trying to 'hunt' down certain record numbers. We've always talked about consistent and sustained performance.

We could have used forced clocks, we could have used variable clock rates: the reality is that it makes it harder for developers to optimize their games even though it would have allowed us to boast higher TFLOPS than we already had, for example. But you know, that's not the important thing. The important thing is the gaming experiences that developers can build.

The Microsoft executive also suggested that the mere I/O speed of the Xbox Series X (which is inferior to that of the PlayStation 5, according to the official specifications) doesn't tell the full story.

Things go beyond the numbers that we may or may not share. Sampler Feedback Streaming (SMS) allows us to load textures and makes the SSD drive act as a multiplier of physical memory that adds to the memory that the machine itself has.

We also have a new API called Direct Storage that gives us low-level direct access to the NVMe controller so that we can be much more efficient in managing those I / O operations.

So even MS says TFLOPS isn't important! However, they're making an interesting claim here. The claim is that variable rates make it difficult to program around and their fixed rate addresses that. Jason also seems to echo what Cerney said about having to cap the frequencies at what they are on PS5. They could go higher but chose not to for system stability (I'm assuming).

What do you guys think about his claim? Will we see this extra development difficulty manifest in games in the future?

LOL MS agrees with Cows.

It reads like MS is damage controlling with the SSD to me while taking a jab at the PS5. 😎

Yep, you've been saying that since 2013.

lol :P

But why would they be damage controlling now? Unless they know of something they're lacking that we don't?

I am just being silly on both ends. There is some tech that requires the developers implementation that would negate the PS5 additional SSD speeds and they believe this hasn't been clear with the raw numbers. Both companies have attempted to underscore the number advantage of their competitor, one has been more successful than the other. As for the impact of variable frequency, I honestly do no know how much of issue they are claiming it is would be in the real world.

No nice try Pony Fanboy twist. What MS is saying is they could of went for more tflops but that optimization is important because they feel that having variable clock speeds is a bad design. Get your facts strait. Sorry the PS5 is designed badly .

I think you should give the nonsensical claims a break for the sake of all fanboys.

Variable rates would make it harder to squeeze the most out of the system, to what degree depends on the engine, workload, or software you are running.

For instance, pushing the gpu effects would require more power so you have to code for lower gpu clocks and vice versa.

Also, there is no way around the slower SSD. All MS can really do is compress and decompress to get more throughout.

Having access to the controller matters because you can schedule loads rather than "asking" so to speak.

All done to mitigate the slower speed.

PS5 has an advantage because there's no need to compress data, saving CPU cycles.

I suspect the Series X has to dedicate 1 thread to scheduling or pulling and decompressing data

@navyguy21: The Series X does not require the CPU for decompressing.

Walking it back, Phil.

Get your facts straight. The PS5 isn't the strongest console but every dev says they love working with it. The architecture is the thing people praise at least.

How in the world did you manage to try to refute what I said with the exact same thing I said?

If I understand Smartshift in PS5 correctly, the developers don't manage the power shift between gpu and cpu. I think it's benefits come from extra instrumentation that allows developers to get more insight as to how they're game will perform in certain areas and where the shifts happen. Then they can optimize their game even further to avoid massive shifts or at least be aware of them.

https://www.gamesradar.com/epic-games-calls-ps5-a-masterpiece-of-systems-design-in-new-interview-with-official-playstation-magazine/

"The PlayStation 5 is a masterpiece of systems design," says Penwarden. "Not only is it driving a huge leap in computing and graphics performance, but it is also revolutionary in terms of storage and data compression technology, unlocking new kinds of games and experiences for players to enjoy."

Who to believe?

So PS5 devs have to do extra work to optimize around the variable clocks and MS devs have to do extra work to work around the slower SSD speeds. Going to be interesting to see which one has a greater impact on the games.

PS5 SSD is god's gift apparently and Xbox just can't stop damage controlling about it. All sony did was do a GDC stream way back in march and went silent on the spec after that.

Yeah they've been letting Epic do their hardware PR for them lol.

You can't blame them. They have to sell their system. Cerney knew they'd lose the TFLOPS war and came out with TFLOPS don't matter in his presentation. I bet you if they had the edge those slides would have been missing.

I am not saying that at all because I don't know the validity of the variable frequency being more problematic. I do know that the Series X requires additional API calls to push the performance beyond the raw number for the SSD.

I can tell you that you shouldn't believe Penwarden. 😎

@Zero_epyon: it is a bit weird now that you mention it. devs been hyping PS5 a bit more but its probably just sony marketing team guerilla tactics lol. We get some random devs hyping the DualSense and Tempest audio as well recently.

Oh no not you that's what MS is saying. Sorry that wasn't clear.

The Tempest engine I get because it's unique. I don't always get devs hyping controllers though.

oooooh burn. console war heating up :D.

The PS5 clock setup does seem to be a solution looking for a problem though. it's not ideal.

for a brief time there i actually thought sony were going to take a crack at running the PS5 (with lower clocks of course) off a battery. that would certainly explain the hard power cap, not revealing any details on how low those clocks will go and using smart shift (which, if the PS5 did run off a battery, would make sonys decisions fall into place).

but no. clearly not....unless maybe there IS a battery in the PS5 hence the larger size. no? grasping at straws? yeah....grasping at straws :P.

it'll be interesting to see what developers make of it. i wouldn't be surprised if they just turn it off and run the PS5 at its max sustained speeds on the CPU and GPU though. take out any unpredictability. especially mutliplat devs.

so again you said to me the ps5 has to use cpu to decompressed because the ssd is not fast enough and the data coming off the ssd has to go to the cpu to get decompressed.

now im confused.

so what is decompressing the data on the series x?

@i_own_u_4ever: actually Crytek and Epic says you can get more out of Sonys design. Will believe that over basement dwellers and MS devs.

Pretty sure MS been reading tormy posts, seen him melt on daily basis and decided to help him out a bit

I mean, Microsoft says what suits them best at any given moment even if it contradicts what they've previously said.

They're honestly just preparing folks for when they drop a 4TLFOP next gen console.

It is so obvious, both companies are fanatic followers of system wars and since some users have raised the bar too high regarding the next gen consoles, they need to do damage control.

Right! I forgot about that.

Yeah that is a part of it. Its time to bring out the weaker machine so the marketing has to backtrack a bit lol. The way phill has been talking lately though, I think he's going to tout 60fps standard. The 4tf machine will be lower resolution but will maintain fps standard. The cpu will be the same to insure that. An area that could be advantageous for them. Sony weirdly seems like 30fps is back in all its glory.

Tflops aren’t important? Probably should have told your marketing team that...

Microsoft... Seriously?

I wouldn't fall for that 60fps thing yet though. A standard is not a mandate. You'll still see plently of 30fps title on MS's platform next gen.

From 3rd party yeah but they could make it a mandate for there stuff. To be fair they have actually aimed for that in most of there games. You just wait a marketing term is coming. Something "Smart true framerate" or something.

@Nonstop-Madness:

1. All companies do

2. The Series S would have the same SSD, only difference would be RAM and GPU

Variable clocks exist in all modern CPUs. You can't be sure what environment the end user will plunk their console down it. If the temps get to high, the clocks scale back.

That's why we have things like variable performance settings. They work well. Power will be unimportant for the coming gen as it is every gen in practice.

It pairs super well with: 4K isn't important for video games. Most people wouldn't notice a game dipping below 4K to keep a consistent frame rate unless Digital Foundry told you.

So, all of that sh_t lems have been talking amounts to nothing. MS agrees with cows. TFLOPS don't matter.

Lol. It seems next gen lems won't be catching any breaks, either.

I can agree with that. Also, man that marketing term sounds just like MS. "Smooth* frame rate delivery"

* = Between 30 and 60 FPS

TFlops has become the buzzword of the gaming community and is something almost nobody fully understands.

Teraflops: Simplified

Don't bother. They'll still use it if it makes their box look better. And I mean all factions.

Tf don't matter when your talking a OC system with a unproven AMD Smartshift technology Vs a stable fixed clock 12 tf system. Realize there is a diminishing return on OC especially when a theoretical peak Tf number is not sustained. This is Sony marketing PR crap.

Its a 9 Tf system at best, probably lower with the same Xbox clocks vs a sustained 12.15 Tf fixed. Amd smartshift failed. Only one laptop using it running like a Hot Potato , with diminishing returns. Wait till you see the fps difference in the reveal.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/dell-g5-15-se-5505-amd-smartshift&ved=2ahUKEwic0YmLlarqAhUSVs0KHSGsC90QFjABegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw3lpLuECAI9_xQ4iRTS0kee

"Just being honest, I felt good after seeing their show. I think the hardware advantages that we have built are going to show up as we’re talking more about our games and frame rates and other things,” Spencer said.

BTW I own both systems.

i don't think they do because of the amd smart shift if the gpu gets hot and lowers the cpu that is not used in that time can pick up the slack of that drop in gpu power. even though i don't think it drops that low mark said what 1% or something? i don't think it drops to the point were the games can't play nor see the difference if it does.

this is my guess not a tech guy i just try to make out the words in the deep dive. i don't want to be called stupid if this does not make sense.

well they making there games for last gen machine so im sure the series x version will be 60fps. until they drop last gen we might see 60 in there first party titles.

This is just a cheap shot at sony for paying much less for their GPU while only been 18% behind.

PS5 Is a 'Masterpiece of Systems Design', Says Epic Games

In a new interview with the Official PlayStation Magazine, which has been reported on by GamesRadar, Epic Games' VP of engineering speaks to the system's strengths. Nick Penwarden said: "The PlayStation 5 is a masterpiece of systems design. Not only is it driving a huge leap in computing and graphics performance, but it is also revolutionary in terms of storage and data compression technology, unlocking new kinds of games and experiences for players to enjoy."

https://www.pushsquare.com/news/2020/06/ps5_is_a_masterpiece_of_systems_design_says_epic_games

Specially when articles like this are hitting.

I haven't see articles about how much worse is to code for the PS5,all the contrary developers are loving it from the few articles i have read.

Things go beyond the numbers that we may or may not share. Sampler Feedback Streaming (SMS) allows us to load textures and makes the SSD drive act as a multiplier of physical memory that adds to the memory that the machine itself has.

We also have a new API called Direct Storage that gives us low-level direct access to the NVMe controller so that we can be much more efficient in managing those I / O operations.

lol this remind me of their DX12 bullshit you can really tell when MS is behind in something they start all this weird magic gains talks instead of admitting been behind.

Same shit when they deny the PS4 had 40% power advantage.

Yeah and believe the Lou2 was a 10/10. Sony influence is strong. But not accurate

How so? Please explain how variable rates will make it more troublesome,this is the sam bullshit MS try to pull with the xbox one calling it balance when everyone on the freaking world knew it wasn't,they just attack any advantage the competition has over their system and is pretty easy to tell when they are behind.

Look like he try to use their Direct storage api as some sort of secret sauce again the PS5 much faster ssd,yeah like the PS5 doesn't have low level api in fact in fact it has been proven time and time again that Sony tools were actually lower level than MS ones,because they don't have any sort of legacy with PC or windows unlike MS development platform.

In fact on PC you have variable frequency,your GPU can be running at 1700mhz and drop to 1500mhz,consoles fixed that long ago,an there are even totorials on PC to lock GPU clocks.

From what i read in resetera it does,but is very small not even a complete thread by MS own words.

The problem i see is if MS try to over blown the gap between both machines,while at the same time trying to sell a 4TF lockheart at $300 or more probably with less than half the Power of a possible $399 PS5 digital edition.

I think the reason they have been so quiet about lockheart is because it greatly underpower vs both PS5 and Series X.

I don't care about what was on resetera, I am telling you it doesn't.

Why ps5 running most games at 30 fps ? It has the superior technology right ?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.tweaktown.com/news/73182/more-games-during-playstation-5-reveal-ran-at-30fps-few-60fps/amp.html&ved=0ahUKEwjE35GZnqrqAhUHHs0KHVpAB2MQyM8BCDYwAw&usg=AOvVaw0yezKHGXySFkSXCACMinO2&ampcf=1

@greygoose12: How about we wait for actually hands on of these games rather than relying on video feeds. 🙂