Myth Busting: (GTA4 related)

Since we have a new crop of Sony fanboys once again claiming the 360 version of GTA4 will need to be cut down to fit on DVD, let's forget the fact the 360 currently has 2 sandbox games available for it right now that all fit on 1 DVD and look at some other facts.

Let's start by listing the contents of a game disc.  We put it in order on how much space they take up from most to least:

1) FMV (Full Motion Video aka CG cut scenes - especially the HD ones)
2) Audio (Background music, spoken dialogue, sound effects)
3) Textures/Shaders (especially high resolution)
4) Geometry (the polygons you see on screen)
5) Game code (programming stuff)

With that done, anybody the knows anything about any GTA made beginning with GTA3 knows no FMV has ever been used in them.  Cutscenes are made using the game engine.  So that eliminates the biggest space hog on a game disc right there.  So let's start with:

2) Audio - As we know every GTA games is filled to the brim with licensed music.  Between that, the spoken dialogue and sound effect, audio files take up at lest 70% of a GTA game disc. 

But guess what?  Audio can be done in compressed formats and still keep its quality.

I introduce to you the OGG VORBIS format:

In the commercial sector, Vorbis support is on the rise. Many mainstream video game titles such as Unreal Tournament and Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas store in-game audio as Vorbis. Popular software players support Ogg Vorbis playback either natively or through an external plugin.

What that statement doesn't mention is that ogg was used in the Xbox and PC versions of GTA: SA and not the PS2 version.  Which is why the PS2 version took up a whole DVD while the Xbox/PC versions took up less than half of one.

......to be continued ;)

Since we have a new crop of Sony fanboys once again claiming the 360 version of GTA4 will need to be cut down to fit on DVD, let's forget the fact the 360 currently has 2 sandbox games available for it right now that all fit on 1 DVD and look at some other facts.

Let's start by listing the contents of a game disc. We put it in order on how much space they take up from most to least:

1) FMV (Full Motion Video aka CG cut scenes - especially the HD ones)
2) Audio (Background music, spoken dialogue, sound effects)
3) Textures/Shaders (especially high resolution)
4) Geometry (the polygons you see on screen)
5) Game code (programming stuff)

With that done, anybody the knows anything about any GTA made beginning with GTA3 knows no FMV has ever been used in them. Cutscenes are made using the game engine. So that eliminates the biggest space hog on a game disc right there. So let's start with:

2) Audio - As we know every GTA games is filled to the brim with licensed music. Between that, the spoken dialogue and sound effect, audio files take up at lest 70% of a GTA game disc.

But guess what? Audio can be done in compressed formats and still keep its quality.

I introduce to you the OGG VORBIS format:

In the commercial sector, Vorbis support is on the rise. Many mainstream video game titles such as Unreal Tournament and Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas store in-game audio as Vorbis. Popular software players support Ogg Vorbis playback either natively or through an external plugin.

What that statement doesn't mention is that ogg was used in the Xbox and PC versions of GTA: SA and not the PS2 version. Which is why the PS2 version took up a whole DVD while the Xbox/PC versions took up less than half of one.

......to be continued ;)

Yellow_Rose

OGG Vorbis been ot since 1999. What make you think it will hit high demand now?Socrates88

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorbis

They continued refining the source code until a stable version 1.0 of the codec was released on July 19, 2002.

Since we have a new crop of Sony fanboys once again claiming the 360 version of GTA4 will need to be cut down to fit on DVD, let's forget the fact the 360 currently has 2 sandbox games available for it right now that all fit on 1 DVD and look at some other facts.

Let's start by listing the contents of a game disc. We put it in order on how much space they take up from most to least:

1) FMV (Full Motion Video aka CG cut scenes - especially the HD ones)
2) Audio (Background music, spoken dialogue, sound effects)
3) Textures/Shaders (especially high resolution)
4) Geometry (the polygons you see on screen)
5) Game code (programming stuff)

With that done, anybody the knows anything about any GTA made beginning with GTA3 knows no FMV has ever been used in them. Cutscenes are made using the game engine. So that eliminates the biggest space hog on a game disc right there. So let's start with:

2) Audio - As we know every GTA games is filled to the brim with licensed music. Between that, the spoken dialogue and sound effect, audio files take up at lest 70% of a GTA game disc.

But guess what? Audio can be done in compressed formats and still keep its quality.

I introduce to you the OGG VORBIS format:

In the commercial sector, Vorbis support is on the rise. Many mainstream video game titles such as Unreal Tournament and Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas store in-game audio as Vorbis. Popular software players support Ogg Vorbis playback either natively or through an external plugin.

What that statement doesn't mention is that ogg was used in the Xbox and PC versions of GTA: SA and not the PS2 version. Which is why the PS2 version took up a whole DVD while the Xbox/PC versions took up less than half of one.

......to be continued ;)

Yellow_Rose

........continued.

Now that we've taken care of Audio, let's discuss #3 and #4, Textures and Geometry.

We'll start with Geometry first since it's the easiest:

4) Geometry - Anybody that has played a 3D GTA knows that it has never been a high polygon game.  The main characters at best 3500 polygons, while the "people on the streets" were around 1500.  Building and structures were simple boxes made to look more detailed by clever texturing.

"But but GTA4 will have a world far bigger than San Andreas"

This pic is from a 3ds max scene.  This is 400 boxes with each box consisting of 20,000 polygons each.  Altogether, this scene consists of 8,000,000 polygons.  The world of San Andreas consisted of half this polycount.

And how much space does this file take up you ask?  ****drum roll****

A whopping 172 mb!

In other words, a GTA five times the size of San Andreas will need a heaping 253 mb worth of extra geometry.

......... to be continued. :)

Uncompressed audio takes up too much space for dvd.

/thread
Hammerofjustice

[QUOTE="Hammerofjustice"]Uncompressed audio takes up too much space for dvd.

/thread
Kaosed

Now now, no need to flame the little tyke.  As you can see, he corrected himself ;)

[QUOTE="Kaosed"][QUOTE="Hammerofjustice"]Uncompressed audio takes up too much space for dvd.

/thread
cabjnico

[QUOTE="cabjnico"][QUOTE="Kaosed"][QUOTE="Hammerofjustice"]Uncompressed audio takes up too much space for dvd.

/thread
Hammerofjustice

It is useless to argue with the Cows on this one. Blu-Ray is the Future......!11!!!.

I have to kind of agree with them on it too.

It is useless to argue with the Cows on this one. Blu-Ray is the Future......!11!!!.

I have to kind of agree with them on it too.

PS3_3DO

it may be the future, but its kinda far future, sony rushed

[QUOTE="PS3_3DO"]

It is useless to argue with the Cows on this one. Blu-Ray is the Future......!11!!!.

I have to kind of agree with them on it too.

Kaosed

it may be the future, but its kinda far future, sony rushed

Yeah that is kind of true but in future games it will be useful. I don't think GTA IV will need it but GTAV might though.

How dare you use reason and logic around here, you didn't even use the phrase "It's a Fact". This is unacceptable.

How dare you use reason and logic around here, you didn't even use the phrase "It's a Fact". This is unacceptable.

Riverwolf007

Here's another one of those pesky reason and logic statements:

#3 TEXTURES

High res textures can be compressed to be as small as 200k and not lose its quality.

They can be made into .dds files, which work extremely well with the 360's architecture.

........continued.

Now that we've taken care of Audio, let's discuss #3 and #4, Textures and Geometry.

We'll start with Geometry first since it's the easiest:

4) Geometry - Anybody that has played a 3D GTA knows that it has never been a high polygon game. The main characters at best 3500 polygons, while the "people on the streets" were around 1500. Building and structures were simple boxes made to look more detailed by clever texturing.

"But but GTA4 will have a world far bigger than San Andreas"

This pic is from a 3ds max scene. This is 400 boxes with each box consisting of 20,000 polygons each. Altogether, this scene consists of 8,000,000 polygons. The world of San Andreas consisted of half this polycount.

And how much space does this file take up you ask? ****drum roll****

A whopping 172 mb!

In other words, a GTA five times the size of San Andreas will need a heaping 253 mb worth of extra geometry.

......... to be continued. :)

Yellow_Rose

While I completely agree with your arguement, I will also remind you that GTA has always had bad graphics in relation to the top looking games.  GTA didn't exactly win any graphics wars and there were many other better looking PS2 games out there.   The game used a lot of carbon copy textures and buildings.  I will also reming you of the shortcuts developers took to make the game "work", such as the classic I-can't-find-a-certain-car-but-the-second-I-do-it's-everywhere. 

There are always shortcuts and cheats to make the most of the space you have.  Personally, I'd llike to see a GTA game with top of the line graphics for once.  I'd like to see the other cars be their own thing instead of always relying on what car I have.  I'd like to see building look different and not all the same but shaped differently.  There is a million things they could do.

While I completely agree with your arguement, I will also remind you that GTA has always had bad graphics in relation to the top looking games.  GTA didn't exactly win any graphics wars and there were many other better looking PS2 games out there.   The game used a lot of carbon copy textures and buildings.  I will also reming you of the shortcuts developers took to make the game "work", such as the classic I-can't-find-a-certain-car-but-the-second-I-do-it's-everywhere. 

There are always shortcuts and cheats to make the most of the space you have.  Personally, I'd llike to see a GTA game with top of the line graphics for once.  I'd like to see the other cars be their own thing instead of always relying on what car I have.  I'd like to see building look different and not all the same but shaped differently.  There is a million things they could do.

Rosencrantz

And I just proved they can do all of those things and more and still fit on a DVD.

Rockstar's Table Tennis pretty much shows what the game characters in GTA4 will look like.

And I just proved they can do all of those things and more and still fit on a DVD.

Rockstar's Table Tennis pretty much shows what the game characters in GTA4 will look like.

Yellow_Rose

:lol:

Must...

Stop...

Laughing...

[QUOTE="Rosencrantz"]

While I completely agree with your arguement, I will also remind you that GTA has always had bad graphics in relation to the top looking games.  GTA didn't exactly win any graphics wars and there were many other better looking PS2 games out there.   The game used a lot of carbon copy textures and buildings.  I will also reming you of the shortcuts developers took to make the game "work", such as the classic I-can't-find-a-certain-car-but-the-second-I-do-it's-everywhere. 

There are always shortcuts and cheats to make the most of the space you have.  Personally, I'd llike to see a GTA game with top of the line graphics for once.  I'd like to see the other cars be their own thing instead of always relying on what car I have.  I'd like to see building look different and not all the same but shaped differently.  There is a million things they could do.

Yellow_Rose

And I just proved they can do all of those things and more and still fit on a DVD.

Rockstar's Table Tennis pretty much shows what the game characters in GTA4 will look like.

I don't think you did.  You seem to have shown how it'sp ossible to make the game fit on DVD if it has drab graphics, the buldings look like boring grey squares, and if there are only a few things on screen at one time like a Table Tennis game.

If you want a realistic looking, graphically amazing GTA game you need to make it feel like a living city with tons of different people.  GTA had tons of people that looked identical to each other.  You need those people to look great and you needs vehicles that are unique.  Also, past GTA games only let you go into a handful of select locations, all of which looked exactly the same.  Another short cut.

Could they fit GTA4 on DVD.  Yeah.  Of course they could. WHo knows what their development plans are for the game and how much space they need.  But there is always MORE than can be done if they have more space as a standard to work with.

Saints row fit a DVD9 easy, and for the kind of GTA like game it looked great IMObillydakid2k3

which catagory does physics drop into? and what about that thing that rockstar are using that will make the pedestrians more life-like?amcallister902

I don't think you did.  You seem to have shown how it's possible to make the game fit on DVD if it has drab graphics, the buldings look like boring grey squares, and if there are only a few things on screen at one time like a Table Tennis game.Rosencrantz

If you're referring to the pic of squares I posted, that was to show geometry, not textures.

To put it in perspective:

Here's a building in PGR3 fully textured.

This the wireframe for the building.  All 9000 polys of it.

If you want a realistic looking, graphically amazing GTA game you need to make it feel like a living city with tons of different people.  GTA had tons of people that looked identical to each other.  You need those people to look great and you needs vehicles that are unique.  Also, past GTA games only let you go into a handful of select locations, all of which looked exactly the same.  Another short cut.Rosencrantz

Having more unique people on the screen has nothing to do with storage space and everything to do with the system's processing power and ability.

Adding 1000 extra type of NPC would only cost you another 100mb in space.

Could they fit GTA4 on DVD.  Yeah.  Of course they could. WHo knows what their development plans are for the game and how much space they need.  But there is always MORE than can be done if they have more space as a standard to work with. Rosencrantz

Again, the improvements you want to see only require extra geometry and textures, both of which do not take up a lot of space.

which catagory does physics drop into? and what about that thing that rockstar are using that will make the pedestrians more life-like?amcallister902

which catagory does physics drop into? and what about that thing that rockstar are using that will make the pedestrians more life-like?amcallister902

Physics is a processing thing.  The SDK they're using for the physics takes up about 2200mb of space.

Bold +ockstar

which catagory does physics drop into? and what about that thing that rockstar are using that will make the pedestrians more life-like?amcallister902

Here let me help you.

Which catagory does physics drop into? What about that thing Rockstar is ( not are ) using that will make the pedestrians more life like?

Bold = Fixed

lol...I am bored sorry if you get offended, but than again you should be used to it being a cow and all. You cows get bashed hard on every forum i go to.

which catagory does physics drop into? and what about that thing that rockstar are using that will make the pedestrians more life-like?amcallister902

Here let me help you.

Which catagory does physics drop into? What about that thing Rockstar is ( not are ) using that will make the pedestrians more life like?

Bold = Fixed

lol...I am bored sorry if you get offended, but than again you should be used to it being a cow and all. You cows get bashed hard on every forum i go to.

                     Rose, thanks for lending some common sense to the forum !  To those who are dissing you; goggles sometime are perma-glued in place ! Those who think it's a pain to get up and change a disk if needed ( huge " IF " ) they can sorta wave the wireless controller in the air like a Wii Mote and pretend it's changing the disk for them hence getting that much needed exersise !

                  Thx Again, SP

Since we have a new crop of Sony fanboys once again claiming the 360 version of GTA4 will need to be cut down to fit on DVD, let's forget the fact the 360 currently has 2 sandbox games available for it right now that all fit on 1 DVD and look at some other facts.

Let's start by listing the contents of a game disc.  We put it in order on how much space they take up from most to least:

1) FMV (Full Motion Video aka CG cut scenes - especially the HD ones)
2) Audio (Background music, spoken dialogue, sound effects)
3) Textures/Shaders (especially high resolution)
4) Geometry (the polygons you see on screen)
5) Game code (programming stuff)

With that done, anybody the knows anything about any GTA made beginning with GTA3 knows no FMV has ever been used in them.  Cutscenes are made using the game engine.  So that eliminates the biggest space hog on a game disc right there.  So let's start with:

2) Audio - As we know every GTA games is filled to the brim with licensed music.  Between that, the spoken dialogue and sound effect, audio files take up at lest 70% of a GTA game disc. 

But guess what?  Audio can be done in compressed formats and still keep its quality.

I introduce to you the OGG VORBIS format:

In the commercial sector, Vorbis support is on the rise. Many mainstream video game titles such as Unreal Tournament and Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas store in-game audio as Vorbis. Popular software players support Ogg Vorbis playback either natively or through an external plugin.

What that statement doesn't mention is that ogg was used in the Xbox and PC versions of GTA: SA and not the PS2 version.  Which is why the PS2 version took up a whole DVD while the Xbox/PC versions took up less than half of one.

......to be continued ;)

Yellow_Rose

It's already been established that the so-called DVD9 problem can be solved using a HDD loader and two or more disks. No disk changing required after the initial load.

The real question is whether or not the PS3's crippled RAM configuration will end up resulting in a held back 360 version. 

Great thread. Not to mention that games like Crackdown, Saint's Row, Oblivion, and Mass Effect are games with huge worlds that still fit on a DVD9. I like to refer to the article as below, even though since it's Microsoft published many cows usually shoot it down saying that it's just "propaganda". Whatever, they will always stay blind.

Regardless, it discusses how much games grew last generation and how much they predict they will grow during this one. Nothing is certain, but it's interesting nonetheless:

Undoubtedly, games will grow. However, technology designed to keep them small and compact will grow as well.

Since we have a new crop of Sony fanboys once again claiming the 360 version of GTA4 will need to be cut down to fit on DVD, let's forget the fact the 360 currently has 2 sandbox games available for it right now that all fit on 1 DVD and look at some other facts.

Let's start by listing the contents of a game disc. We put it in order on how much space they take up from most to least:

1) FMV (Full Motion Video aka CG cut scenes - especially the HD ones)
2) Audio (Background music, spoken dialogue, sound effects)
3) Textures/Shaders (especially high resolution)
4) Geometry (the polygons you see on screen)
5) Game code (programming stuff)

With that done, anybody the knows anything about any GTA made beginning with GTA3 knows no FMV has ever been used in them. Cutscenes are made using the game engine. So that eliminates the biggest space hog on a game disc right there. So let's start with:

2) Audio - As we know every GTA games is filled to the brim with licensed music. Between that, the spoken dialogue and sound effect, audio files take up at lest 70% of a GTA game disc.

But guess what? Audio can be done in compressed formats and still keep its quality.

I introduce to you the OGG VORBIS format:

In the commercial sector, Vorbis support is on the rise. Many mainstream video game titles such as Unreal Tournament and Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas store in-game audio as Vorbis. Popular software players support Ogg Vorbis playback either natively or through an external plugin.

What that statement doesn't mention is that ogg was used in the Xbox and PC versions of GTA: SA and not the PS2 version. Which is why the PS2 version took up a whole DVD while the Xbox/PC versions took up less than half of one.

......to be continued ;)

Yellow_Rose

Compression is the solution for X360!  It has been said by developers (AFAIK) that this gen will not require more then a DVD9 storage capabilities and if it happens that it will how difficult would it be to get up and switch the disk?  The PS3 does have the advantage of having more space available for uncompressed contents but one downfall of that (IMHO) is that current BlueRay drives have 2x ~ 2 * 4.5Mb/s ~ 9Mb/s read times so if the game "pre-loaded" its contents to the HD it would take ~18.5 min to transfer 10Gb.  With X360s compressed DVD content it would take (12x ~ 12 * 1.32Mb/s ~ 15.8Mb/s "Max") considerably less time but on-the-fly uncompressing would take up the CPU cycles (please keep in mind that Xbox360s DVD player is variable speed and transfer rates will vary whereas PS3s BlueRay drive is a constant speed drive).  The bottom line is that both systems have their advantages/disadvantages not only in storage drives but also CPUs, GPUs, etc. so why not stop "bashing" other systems for their short-comings and chose your platform based on the games that it offers... better yet, get all of them and u'll be covered

The funny thing most people don't realise is, the 360 is GTA:IVs lead platform. So the game is being made to fit DVD9s, not Blu-ray disks.Raidea