NATAL Half Like 2 video?

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thew13

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#1 thew13
Member since 2004 • 837 Posts

http://www.pcworld.com/article/185619/natal_half_life_2_leak.html?tk=rss_news

Could it be real, if os interesting. discuss

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carljohnson3456

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#2 carljohnson3456
Member since 2007 • 12489 Posts
When he's reaching at the camera... is anything happening on screen? Or is there something happening there I aint seein? I still am not interested in Natal. I like my controller just fine. I'll wait and see how well it performs when it launches...
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akbar13

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#3 akbar13
Member since 2009 • 2186 Posts

Half Like 2?

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Zero_epyon

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#4 Zero_epyon
Member since 2004 • 20494 Posts
[QUOTE="carljohnson3456"]When he's reaching at the camera... is anything happening on screen? Or is there something happening there I aint seein? I still am not interested in Natal. I like my controller just fine. I'll wait and see how well it performs when it launches...

he's trying to press a button. Imagine aiming and shooting.
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carljohnson3456

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#5 carljohnson3456
Member since 2007 • 12489 Posts
[QUOTE="Zero_epyon"][QUOTE="carljohnson3456"]When he's reaching at the camera... is anything happening on screen? Or is there something happening there I aint seein? I still am not interested in Natal. I like my controller just fine. I'll wait and see how well it performs when it launches...

he's trying to press a button. Imagine aiming and shooting.

Sounds... like... fun... :?
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wolverine4262

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#6 wolverine4262
Member since 2004 • 20832 Posts
you guys need to remember that this game wasnt made for natal. What really should be payed attention to is the kind of movements he is using here. The camera is so sophisticated that simple wrist movements are registered....
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Zero_epyon

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#7 Zero_epyon
Member since 2004 • 20494 Posts
[QUOTE="carljohnson3456"][QUOTE="Zero_epyon"][QUOTE="carljohnson3456"]When he's reaching at the camera... is anything happening on screen? Or is there something happening there I aint seein? I still am not interested in Natal. I like my controller just fine. I'll wait and see how well it performs when it launches...

he's trying to press a button. Imagine aiming and shooting.

Sounds... like... fun... :?

i know. as opposed to pushing up on a stick and pressing b.
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Zero_epyon

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#8 Zero_epyon
Member since 2004 • 20494 Posts
you guys need to remember that this game wasnt made for natal. What really should be payed attention to is the kind of movements he is using here. The camera is so sophisticated that simple wrist movements are registered....wolverine4262
Apparently it's being made for Natal. All that's being edited is the control scheme not the engine as a whole. This is an fps on Natal. There really isn't any other way you can play an fps on Natal without using hand gestures. Look how long it took for him to push a button. imagine aiming and shooting.
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wolverine4262

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#9 wolverine4262
Member since 2004 • 20832 Posts
[QUOTE="wolverine4262"]you guys need to remember that this game wasnt made for natal. What really should be payed attention to is the kind of movements he is using here. The camera is so sophisticated that simple wrist movements are registered....Zero_epyon
Apparently it's being made for Natal. All that's being edited is the control scheme not the engine as a whole. This is an fps on Natal. There really isn't any other way you can play an fps on Natal without using hand gestures. Look how long it took for him to push a button. imagine aiming and shooting.

No one said the game is being made for natal. Its just a tech demonstration. Sure there are other ways to make a shooter on natal. First of all, actually design the game with natal in mind.... Ya, I did see that part where he tried to push the button. It was a little of, but the hardware isnt exactly finished either, is it? Aiming looked just fine in the video (actually quite nice), and I imagine shooting would be pretty much the same..
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Zero_epyon

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#10 Zero_epyon
Member since 2004 • 20494 Posts
[QUOTE="Zero_epyon"][QUOTE="wolverine4262"]you guys need to remember that this game wasnt made for natal. What really should be payed attention to is the kind of movements he is using here. The camera is so sophisticated that simple wrist movements are registered....wolverine4262
Apparently it's being made for Natal. All that's being edited is the control scheme not the engine as a whole. This is an fps on Natal. There really isn't any other way you can play an fps on Natal without using hand gestures. Look how long it took for him to push a button. imagine aiming and shooting.

No one said the game is being made for natal. Its just a tech demonstration. Sure there are other ways to make a shooter on natal. First of all, actually design the game with natal in mind.... Ya, I did see that part where he tried to push the button. It was a little of, but the hardware isnt exactly finished either, is it? Aiming looked just fine in the video (actually quite nice), and I imagine shooting would be pretty much the same..

It's being made for the demonstration. will it be released as a natal game no one knows but if they get it working why not? Having Natal in mind will bring gestures. I'm sorry but there's no other way. You are the controller and the only way to tell natal what to do is with a gesture. He moved the screen with his hands. then what a gesture to bring out a gun? Which gun, your pistol, Assault rifle, Rocket launcher, knife? how would you swap between the two? A gesture, by the time your done it's game over. But gunplay aside, just the simple act of walking around is what makes natal useless with FPS's.
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wolverine4262

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#11 wolverine4262
Member since 2004 • 20832 Posts
[QUOTE="Zero_epyon"] It's being made for the demonstration. will it be released as a natal game no one knows but if they get it working why not? Having Natal in mind will bring gestures. I'm sorry but there's no other way. You are the controller and the only way to tell natal what to do is with a gesture. He moved the screen with his hands. then what a gesture to bring out a gun? Which gun, your pistol, Assault rifle, Rocket launcher, knife? how would you swap between the two? A gesture, by the time your done it's game over. But gunplay aside, just the simple act of walking around is what makes natal useless with FPS's.

I know there are possible design constraints w/ natal. No one is arguing that. But the main thing is that half life wasnt made for natal. Game developers get paid to figure these kind of things out. Im surprised he was walking so effortlessly in that video. Peopl were saying that wuld be impossible, but look at it. Id really like to see MS put out a simple one handed controller to use in conjunction with games like this. It doesnt need sensor or anything. Just a wireless in-line controller...
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Sully28

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#12 Sully28
Member since 2003 • 5097 Posts

[QUOTE="wolverine4262"][QUOTE="Zero_epyon"] Apparently it's being made for Natal. All that's being edited is the control scheme not the engine as a whole. This is an fps on Natal. There really isn't any other way you can play an fps on Natal without using hand gestures. Look how long it took for him to push a button. imagine aiming and shooting.Zero_epyon
No one said the game is being made for natal. Its just a tech demonstration. Sure there are other ways to make a shooter on natal. First of all, actually design the game with natal in mind.... Ya, I did see that part where he tried to push the button. It was a little of, but the hardware isnt exactly finished either, is it? Aiming looked just fine in the video (actually quite nice), and I imagine shooting would be pretty much the same..

It's being made for the demonstration. will it be released as a natal game no one knows but if they get it working why not? Having Natal in mind will bring gestures. I'm sorry but there's no other way. You are the controller and the only way to tell natal what to do is with a gesture. He moved the screen with his hands. then what a gesture to bring out a gun? Which gun, your pistol, Assault rifle, Rocket launcher, knife? how would you swap between the two? A gesture, by the time your done it's game over. But gunplay aside, just the simple act of walking around is what makes natal useless with FPS's.

Hey maybe they have a family fun kind of mentality when it comes to developing natal games. Like for half life you can have your mom control your movments and gun changing with a 360 controller, while you aim and shoot with natal. How much fun!

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LegatoSkyheart

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#13 LegatoSkyheart
Member since 2009 • 29733 Posts

didn't someone post this already?

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wolverine4262

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#14 wolverine4262
Member since 2004 • 20832 Posts

didn't someone post this already?

LegatoSkyheart
ya, it was posted yesterday...
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Zero_epyon

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#15 Zero_epyon
Member since 2004 • 20494 Posts
[QUOTE="wolverine4262"][QUOTE="Zero_epyon"] It's being made for the demonstration. will it be released as a natal game no one knows but if they get it working why not? Having Natal in mind will bring gestures. I'm sorry but there's no other way. You are the controller and the only way to tell natal what to do is with a gesture. He moved the screen with his hands. then what a gesture to bring out a gun? Which gun, your pistol, Assault rifle, Rocket launcher, knife? how would you swap between the two? A gesture, by the time your done it's game over. But gunplay aside, just the simple act of walking around is what makes natal useless with FPS's.

I know there are possible design constraints w/ natal. No one is arguing that. But the main thing is that half life wasnt made for natal. Game developers get paid to figure these kind of things out. Im surprised he was walking so effortlessly in that video. Peopl were saying that wuld be impossible, but look at it. Id really like to see MS put out a simple one handed controller to use in conjunction with games like this. It doesnt need sensor or anything. Just a wireless in-line controller...

That wont happen because it will be similar to the PS3 "wands" and besides MS already said this will all be controller-less.
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Dead-Memories

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#16 Dead-Memories
Member since 2008 • 6587 Posts

Anyone have that TR3Y video when the guy was sitting down making fun of Natal and shooting games?

That was the most hilarious one by far. And this proves his point

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deactivated-5b19214ec908b

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#17 deactivated-5b19214ec908b
Member since 2007 • 25072 Posts

this video proves that shooters cant be done on Natal

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wolverine4262

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#18 wolverine4262
Member since 2004 • 20832 Posts
[QUOTE="Zero_epyon"] That wont happen because it will be similar to the PS3 "wands" and besides MS already said this will all be controller-less.

LOL.. too similar to the wand?! Dont you mean the wii mote? Oh wait, the wand is pretty much a carbon copy of that. No one said that natal couldnt be used in conjunction with a controller, be it the standard 360 controller or dedicated one.. BTW, if you read my post, you would see my isnt actually like the wand. Its just an in-line controller. It wouldnt need a sensor as natal is beyond that...
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#19 Baranga
Member since 2005 • 14217 Posts

Look how long it took for him to push a button. imagine aiming and shooting.Zero_epyon

I thought he was tickling the bobblehead doll first, and then moved to the teleporter.

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chaplainDMK

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#20 chaplainDMK
Member since 2008 • 7004 Posts

Yeah, cant wait to stand in my living room for 2+ hours using hand gestures to do innacurate movements and when i sneze i willl probably throw a hand grenade at my feet. Oh the fun!

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AdmiralBison

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#21 AdmiralBison
Member since 2008 • 3970 Posts

[QUOTE="wolverine4262"][QUOTE="Zero_epyon"] Apparently it's being made for Natal. All that's being edited is the control scheme not the engine as a whole. This is an fps on Natal. There really isn't any other way you can play an fps on Natal without using hand gestures. Look how long it took for him to push a button. imagine aiming and shooting.Zero_epyon
No one said the game is being made for natal. Its just a tech demonstration. Sure there are other ways to make a shooter on natal. First of all, actually design the game with natal in mind.... Ya, I did see that part where he tried to push the button. It was a little of, but the hardware isnt exactly finished either, is it? Aiming looked just fine in the video (actually quite nice), and I imagine shooting would be pretty much the same..

It's being made for the demonstration. will it be released as a natal game no one knows but if they get it working why not? Having Natal in mind will bring gestures. I'm sorry but there's no other way. You are the controller and the only way to tell natal what to do is with a gesture. He moved the screen with his hands. then what a gesture to bring out a gun? Which gun, your pistol, Assault rifle, Rocket launcher, knife? how would you swap between the two? A gesture, by the time your done it's game over. But gunplay aside, just the simple act of walking around is what makes natal useless with FPS's.

lol. Gee what a way tp give up on motion tech. I'm fairly sure there will come with some system for movement.

It's still early days and that was just game retrofitted for Natal as a demo.

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AdmiralBison

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#22 AdmiralBison
Member since 2008 • 3970 Posts

[QUOTE="Zero_epyon"] It's being made for the demonstration. will it be released as a natal game no one knows but if they get it working why not? Having Natal in mind will bring gestures. I'm sorry but there's no other way. You are the controller and the only way to tell natal what to do is with a gesture. He moved the screen with his hands. then what a gesture to bring out a gun? Which gun, your pistol, Assault rifle, Rocket launcher, knife? how would you swap between the two? A gesture, by the time your done it's game over. But gunplay aside, just the simple act of walking around is what makes natal useless with FPS's. wolverine4262
I know there are possible design constraints w/ natal. No one is arguing that. But the main thing is that half life wasnt made for natal. Game developers get paid to figure these kind of things out. Im surprised he was walking so effortlessly in that video. Peopl were saying that wuld be impossible, but look at it. Id really like to see MS put out a simple one handed controller to use in conjunction with games like this. It doesnt need sensor or anything. Just a wireless in-line controller...

one thing I can think of that would do very well naturally onProject NatalFPS is dual wielding.

Aiming in 2 diferent places independently.

Like in the movie EQUILIBRIUM- if anyone here has seen that movie starring Christian Bale would defintately know what I'm talking about.

The first thing that comes to mind for movement onProject NatalFPS is on rail-FPS. like Time Crisis.

I'm confident some developers out there are creative enough to come up with some movement system.

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#23 AdmiralBison
Member since 2008 • 3970 Posts

[QUOTE="Zero_epyon"][QUOTE="wolverine4262"] No one said the game is being made for natal. Its just a tech demonstration. Sure there are other ways to make a shooter on natal. First of all, actually design the game with natal in mind.... Ya, I did see that part where he tried to push the button. It was a little of, but the hardware isnt exactly finished either, is it? Aiming looked just fine in the video (actually quite nice), and I imagine shooting would be pretty much the same..Sully28

It's being made for the demonstration. will it be released as a natal game no one knows but if they get it working why not? Having Natal in mind will bring gestures. I'm sorry but there's no other way. You are the controller and the only way to tell natal what to do is with a gesture. He moved the screen with his hands. then what a gesture to bring out a gun? Which gun, your pistol, Assault rifle, Rocket launcher, knife? how would you swap between the two? A gesture, by the time your done it's game over. But gunplay aside, just the simple act of walking around is what makes natal useless with FPS's.

Hey maybe they have a family fun kind of mentality when it comes to developing natal games. Like for half life you can have your mom control your movments and gun changing with a 360 controller, while you aim and shoot with natal. How much fun!

I don't know if you're being sarcastic but that does open up a big possibilites in the co-op front of gaming.

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#24 AdmiralBison
Member since 2008 • 3970 Posts

[QUOTE="wolverine4262"][QUOTE="Zero_epyon"] It's being made for the demonstration. will it be released as a natal game no one knows but if they get it working why not? Having Natal in mind will bring gestures. I'm sorry but there's no other way. You are the controller and the only way to tell natal what to do is with a gesture. He moved the screen with his hands. then what a gesture to bring out a gun? Which gun, your pistol, Assault rifle, Rocket launcher, knife? how would you swap between the two? A gesture, by the time your done it's game over. But gunplay aside, just the simple act of walking around is what makes natal useless with FPS's. Zero_epyon
I know there are possible design constraints w/ natal. No one is arguing that. But the main thing is that half life wasnt made for natal. Game developers get paid to figure these kind of things out. Im surprised he was walking so effortlessly in that video. Peopl were saying that wuld be impossible, but look at it. Id really like to see MS put out a simple one handed controller to use in conjunction with games like this. It doesnt need sensor or anything. Just a wireless in-line controller...

That wont happen because it will be similar to the PS3 "wands" and besides MS already said this will all be controller-less.

how do you know it won't happen?

Natal can do controllerless, but does not mean it is 'limited' to just that.

Project natal looks to be more flexible. It porbabaly can be applicable to alot of things Microsoft have anticipated.

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monson21502

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#25 monson21502
Member since 2009 • 8230 Posts

natal can just scan the controller and then the controller can be used. but you can still use motion controls at the same time. pretty easy huh?

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#26 AdmiralBison
Member since 2008 • 3970 Posts

Yeah, cant wait to stand in my living room for 2+ hours using hand gestures to do innacurate movements and when i sneze i willl probably throw a hand grenade at my feet. Oh the fun!

chaplainDMK

well then don't sneeze.

You can come up with a better excuse then that.

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#27 alextherussian
Member since 2009 • 2642 Posts
Its nice to see that they are working at making it work with a game not designed with such technology in mind. Yes pushing the button was hard, and even keeping the vision straight was a process, but they are working at it and they are already implementing concepts that were literally a few months back being discussed as impossible (walking forward being a key concern at Natal's unveiling). . Past the basic fanboyism nonsense that presents both the charm and stupidity of this board. I dont really understand where the hate is coming from. If it fails, it fails, no money lost on the gamers part. If it succeeds to make something different it could be akin to breaking the 4rth wall in theater. Both jarring in the broken boundary but amazing to experience non the less. I get the whole, pass judgement nature, but a successful natal is a step forward for gaming imersion. . Just imagine playing Black and White with natal, slapping your villagers around and throwing fireballs not with flicks of the mouse but literally with your hands. Why hate on a technology that could bring about such an experience?
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carljohnson3456

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#28 carljohnson3456
Member since 2007 • 12489 Posts
Why hate on a technology that could bring about such an experience?alextherussian
I dont hate on Natal, I'm just skeptical. It's getting a massive amount of hype, but so far I've only seen a few videos... some super casual games I have zero interest in playing, a Burnout demo that showed lag, and now this "rumored" video of Half Life 2. I understand some people's excitement, but I think it'll probably be used as a gimmick most of the time and spawn alot of crappy shovelware cash in games. My opinion. I hope to be corrected.
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#29 rockzo
Member since 2009 • 520 Posts

http://www.pcworld.com/article/185619/natal_half_life_2_leak.html?tk=rss_news

Could it be real, if os interesting. discuss

thew13

Looks aqward and unweildy...

Dare I even say a controller would be light years better for a fps, And quite frankly thats pathetic.

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alextherussian

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#30 alextherussian
Member since 2009 • 2642 Posts
[QUOTE="alextherussian"] Why hate on a technology that could bring about such an experience?carljohnson3456
I dont hate on Natal, I'm just skeptical. It's getting a massive amount of hype, but so far I've only seen a few videos... some super casual games I have zero interest in playing, a Burnout demo that showed lag, and now this "rumored" video of Half Life 2. I understand some people's excitement, but I think it'll probably be used as a gimmick most of the time and spawn alot of crappy shovelware cash in games. My opinion. I hope to be corrected.

Very well maybe. Given that there will be (I belive) eleven natal capable games at its launch its highly likely that the majority will indeed be shovel ware. But like the Wii (for the sake of using a recent example) has shown, a lot of shovelware does not diminish the quality of the platform itself. The Wii has tons of games that put Big Rigs to shame, but despite that there are several very high quality experiences that are made all the better by the technology of the platform. . I dont think that there wont be shovelware (there will), I dont think that there wont be problems with the technology (there will). I do however think that despite these issues, despite the a so feared "casualization" that many good things can come in how we experience a game. Sceptisism is probably the best way to approach something like this. Personally Im more excited for what natal can offer then most of the gaming experiences next year (well maybe ME2 and Gow 3 aside)....
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Zero_epyon

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#31 Zero_epyon
Member since 2004 • 20494 Posts
[QUOTE="wolverine4262"][QUOTE="Zero_epyon"] That wont happen because it will be similar to the PS3 "wands" and besides MS already said this will all be controller-less.

LOL.. too similar to the wand?! Dont you mean the wii mote? Oh wait, the wand is pretty much a carbon copy of that. No one said that natal couldnt be used in conjunction with a controller, be it the standard 360 controller or dedicated one.. BTW, if you read my post, you would see my isnt actually like the wand. Its just an in-line controller. It wouldnt need a sensor as natal is beyond that...

If i'm not mistaken, the wii remote doesn't use a camera. The next thing that does will be the wand.
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#32 AdmiralBison
Member since 2008 • 3970 Posts

[QUOTE="thew13"]

http://www.pcworld.com/article/185619/natal_half_life_2_leak.html?tk=rss_news

Could it be real, if os interesting. discuss

rockzo

Looks aqward and unweildy...

Dare I even say a controller would be light years better for a fps, And quite frankly thats pathetic.

you dare say? So iI take it you prefer KB and mouse? They are considered light years better foran FPS then a controller- yet the controller has taken off given its "limitations" and in place -ergonomics, simple use and access.

The pros of motion tech may out weigh the cons.

Quick, easy, natural and do actual simultaneous indenpendent dual weilding

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wolverine4262

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#33 wolverine4262
Member since 2004 • 20832 Posts
[QUOTE="Zero_epyon"][QUOTE="wolverine4262"][QUOTE="Zero_epyon"] That wont happen because it will be similar to the PS3 "wands" and besides MS already said this will all be controller-less.

LOL.. too similar to the wand?! Dont you mean the wii mote? Oh wait, the wand is pretty much a carbon copy of that. No one said that natal couldnt be used in conjunction with a controller, be it the standard 360 controller or dedicated one.. BTW, if you read my post, you would see my isnt actually like the wand. Its just an in-line controller. It wouldnt need a sensor as natal is beyond that...

If i'm not mistaken, the wii remote doesn't use a camera. The next thing that does will be the wand.

You are mistaken. The wii mote IS a camera....
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#34 PrimusGears
Member since 2008 • 1594 Posts

I think its pretty impressive, goes to show you that they are really interested in the P. Natat tech. I cant wait for it.

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#35 Zero_epyon
Member since 2004 • 20494 Posts
[QUOTE="wolverine4262"][QUOTE="Zero_epyon"][QUOTE="wolverine4262"] LOL.. too similar to the wand?! Dont you mean the wii mote? Oh wait, the wand is pretty much a carbon copy of that. No one said that natal couldnt be used in conjunction with a controller, be it the standard 360 controller or dedicated one.. BTW, if you read my post, you would see my isnt actually like the wand. Its just an in-line controller. It wouldnt need a sensor as natal is beyond that...

If i'm not mistaken, the wii remote doesn't use a camera. The next thing that does will be the wand.

You are mistaken. The wii mote IS a camera....

http://express.howstuffworks.com/wii-controller-autopsy.htm No it is not. It sends what it detects over radio signals. The sensor does not visually track your controller like the ps3 wand would. Therefore, Natal with a controller would be closer to the wand and not the wii remote.
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wolverine4262

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#36 wolverine4262
Member since 2004 • 20832 Posts
[QUOTE="Zero_epyon"][QUOTE="wolverine4262"][QUOTE="Zero_epyon"] If i'm not mistaken, the wii remote doesn't use a camera. The next thing that does will be the wand.

You are mistaken. The wii mote IS a camera....

http://express.howstuffworks.com/wii-controller-autopsy.htm No it is not. It sends what it detects over radio signals. The sensor does not visually track your controller like the ps3 wand would. Therefore, Natal with a controller would be closer to the wand and not the wii remote.

From the article: "It also uses an infrared sensor to detect light that comes from a separate sensor bar. This light is like a homing signal. It helps the constantly moving Wii remote keep track of where it is in space." . . The wii-mote is an IR camera and the sensor bar is composed of to IR lights. Its the wand in reverse. Instead of holding the sensor, you hold the camera. Also, instead of a VGA cam, its IR... Of course natal has both. Like I said before, it would NOT be the same as the wand b/c its not being used for tracking. How many times to I have to say that...
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Zero_epyon

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#37 Zero_epyon
Member since 2004 • 20494 Posts
[QUOTE="Zero_epyon"][QUOTE="wolverine4262"]You are mistaken. The wii mote IS a camera....wolverine4262
http://express.howstuffworks.com/wii-controller-autopsy.htm No it is not. It sends what it detects over radio signals. The sensor does not visually track your controller like the ps3 wand would. Therefore, Natal with a controller would be closer to the wand and not the wii remote.

From the article: "It also uses an infrared sensor to detect light that comes from a separate sensor bar. This light is like a homing signal. It helps the constantly moving Wii remote keep track of where it is in space." . . The wii-mote is an IR camera and the sensor bar is composed of to IR lights. Its the wand in reverse. Instead of holding the sensor, you hold the camera. Also, instead of a VGA cam, its IR... Of course natal has both. Like I said before, it would NOT be the same as the wand b/c its not being used for tracking. How many times to I have to say that...

An IR signal doesn't equal the capability of either Natal or PS3 Wand. So they both include IR, but they both provide a greater function wii remotes can't do, like facial and object recognition to sound processing. The best comparison to a control/natal combo would be the wand.
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wolverine4262

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#38 wolverine4262
Member since 2004 • 20832 Posts
[QUOTE="Zero_epyon"] An IR signal doesn't equal the capability of either Natal or PS3 Wand. So they both include IR, but they both provide a greater function wii remotes can't do, like facial and object recognition to sound processing. The best comparison to a control/natal combo would be the wand.

Oh, you are trying to compare natal to the PS eye.. ya thats not a fair comparison at all. The eye will only be able to track the light from the wand. Its not going to be so easy to have it track the wand and any other features that sony may claim the eye has. Also, its just an RGB camera. No IR sensor. Natal on the other hand has both. It can track each pixel of your body in 3D space..... Not to mention that it has a built in processor, unlike the PS3 which will see a performance hit with the peripheral....
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#39 meltedwater
Member since 2009 • 53 Posts
I think it is fake. If it were real, room wouldnt be so dark, he would explain waht he was doing, and you would be on a larger screen for us to see details. Also, if it was real, M$ would not keep this a secret, they do want Project Wanna Be Wii to succed.