Nintendo's Past, Present and Future Strategy... They are Geniuses!

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deactivated-5d6bb9cb2ee20

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#1 deactivated-5d6bb9cb2ee20
Member since 2006 • 82724 Posts

Many of you might have already read this before; I did, after all, first hear about it in a thread on System Wars yesterday. But I read itin its entirety, and when I was through, I coud clearly see where we are headed... and if that is true, then brace yourself.

I want you guys to read this thesis, called Birdmen and the Casual Fallacy. It is simply brilliant.

I want you guys to read it fully, or you will miss the point of it. I know it's long, but basically, it's entertaining and enlightening, and therefore, I think you should check the whole thing out.

The author describes what Nintendo have done with the DS and the Wii... and he describes how and why the Wii is the future of hardcore gaming, and before somebody posts it, no, this has nothing to do with motion controls being integrated into all games, because that will not be the cause, that will just be the effect.

Seriously, read it. And you will understand. Nintendo are geniuses.

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Iamsmee

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#2 Iamsmee
Member since 2008 • 470 Posts

sony and microsoft were and are still idiots, not news

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#3 deactivated-5d6bb9cb2ee20
Member since 2006 • 82724 Posts
I know, but its worth thinking- like the DS managed to edge out the PSp in terms of proper third party support and real hardcore games, does that mean that the Wii will edge out the Xbox 360 and PS3 too...?
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_rpg_FAN

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#4 _rpg_FAN
Member since 2005 • 1418 Posts

thats great article

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deactivated-5d6bb9cb2ee20

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#5 deactivated-5d6bb9cb2ee20
Member since 2006 • 82724 Posts

thats great article

_rpg_FAN

I know, and it implies the Wii eventually becoming the most hardcore console... I think if this is true, Nintendo had a great long term strategy, better even than Sony's ten year lifespan strategy

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Iamsmee

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#6 Iamsmee
Member since 2008 • 470 Posts

I know, but its worth thinking- like the DS managed to edge out the PSp in terms of proper third party support and real hardcore games, does that mean that the Wii will edge out the Xbox 360 and PS3 too...?charizard1605

its happening as we post, probably not true hardcore games since ps3/360 get multiplats, but generally wii is getting more and more third party support... just gotta find hope games start to come out that make use of N's M+ before MS and Sony's motion controls (or M+ :roll: ) come out.

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manicfoot

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#7 manicfoot
Member since 2006 • 2670 Posts

:shock: Wow that was one of the most interesting articles I've read in a while. Thanks a lot for bringing this to my attention! :)

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deactivated-5d6bb9cb2ee20

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#8 deactivated-5d6bb9cb2ee20
Member since 2006 • 82724 Posts

[QUOTE="charizard1605"]I know, but its worth thinking- like the DS managed to edge out the PSp in terms of proper third party support and real hardcore games, does that mean that the Wii will edge out the Xbox 360 and PS3 too...?Iamsmee

its happening as we post, probably not true hardcore games since ps3/360 get multiplats, but generally wii is getting more and more third party support... just gotta find hope games start to come out that make use of N's M+ before MS and Sony's motion controls (or M+ :roll: ) come out.

well, yes, Dragon Quest X, Resident Evil: Darkside Chronicles, Dead Space Extraction, The Conduit etc etc are all testament to the fact that it has already begun happening. Nintendo is moving into the hardcore realm slowly and steadily... by 2011, or 2012 at the most, the Wii will be the most hardcore console, and the one with the biggest fanbase, thanks to the casual-turned-hardcore gamers, as well as Nintendo's own loyal core fanbase... man, I hope it happens, the Wii is the console with the most untapped potential.

:shock: Wow that was one of the most interesting articles I've read in a while. Thanks a lot for bringing this to my attention! :)

manicfoot
your welcome, dude. i actually wanted evrybody to read it, which is why i made this thread... hope people can understand what Nintendo is trying, and that, to an extent, the Nintendo bashing will stop now.
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#10 Lionheart08
Member since 2005 • 15814 Posts

sony and microsoft were and are still idiots, not news

Iamsmee

How does an idiot spank the top dog for two straight gens then? :?

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deactivated-5d6bb9cb2ee20

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#11 deactivated-5d6bb9cb2ee20
Member since 2006 • 82724 Posts

[QUOTE="Iamsmee"]

sony and microsoft were and are still idiots, not news

Lionheart08

How does an idiot spank the top dog for two straight gens then? :?

Sony definitely were not idiots until they released the PS3. They got all cocky then, and that paved the path for their spectacular downfall.
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KungfuKitten

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#12 KungfuKitten
Member since 2006 • 27389 Posts

It's called thinking. Something basically everyone gave up on in school when they were forced to just take everything for granted to get their grades.

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daqua_99

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#13 daqua_99
Member since 2005 • 11170 Posts

Without a doubt a great article in my opinion. I can see how Nintendo is gradually moving up the tiers in gaming, as could be seen through this years E3 (there was less talk about "non-traditional" games like Wii Play/Sport/Music/Fit and more about "traditional" games like NSMB Wii, SMG2, Spirit Tracks and Other M). I do not think that MS or Sony will "flee" the industry, as by the time the next generation of consoles will be released they will be able to "steal" some of the audience from them ... as long as their software is not perceived as all "blood and gore". I personally think that this new audience Nintendo will bring will (thankfully) end the view that a game has to be a shooter or have violence to be considered "hardcore" ... in no other entertainment industry is this the case, so why should it be with games?

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#14 deactivated-5d6bb9cb2ee20
Member since 2006 • 82724 Posts

Without a doubt a great article in my opinion. I can see how Nintendo is gradually moving up the tiers in gaming, as could be seen through this years E3 (there was less talk about "non-traditional" games like Wii Play/Sport/Music/Fit and more about "traditional" games like NSMB Wii, SMG2, Spirit Tracks and Other M). I do not think that MS or Sony will "flee" the industry, as by the time the next generation of consoles will be released they will be able to "steal" some of the audience from them ... as long as their software is not perceived as all "blood and gore". I personally think that this new audience Nintendo will bring will (thankfully) end the view that a game has to be a shooter or have violence to be considered "hardcore" ... in no other entertainment industry is this the case, so why should it be with games?

daqua_99
Yes, I think you have percieved it correctly. Sony and Microsoft have invested a lot here after all, and we need competition. However, I still think that Nintendo will move back into the realms of hardcore gaming, possibly resulting in the Wii having the best library by the time this is through. This year's E3, as you said, is a prime example of what they're doing. Moving up the ladder- again. The Wii and the DS are a new beginning for Nintendo, and, by extension, the entire gaming industry
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#15 daqua_99
Member since 2005 • 11170 Posts

[QUOTE="daqua_99"]

Without a doubt a great article in my opinion. I can see how Nintendo is gradually moving up the tiers in gaming, as could be seen through this years E3 (there was less talk about "non-traditional" games like Wii Play/Sport/Music/Fit and more about "traditional" games like NSMB Wii, SMG2, Spirit Tracks and Other M). I do not think that MS or Sony will "flee" the industry, as by the time the next generation of consoles will be released they will be able to "steal" some of the audience from them ... as long as their software is not perceived as all "blood and gore". I personally think that this new audience Nintendo will bring will (thankfully) end the view that a game has to be a shooter or have violence to be considered "hardcore" ... in no other entertainment industry is this the case, so why should it be with games?

charizard1605

Yes, I think you have percieved it correctly. Sony and Microsoft have invested a lot here after all, and we need competition. However, I still think that Nintendo will move back into the realms of hardcore gaming, possibly resulting in the Wii having the best library by the time this is through. This year's E3, as you said, is a prime example of what they're doing. Moving up the ladder- again. The Wii and the DS are a new beginning for Nintendo, and, by extension, the entire gaming industry

I also think that Nintendo will remain in the upper tiers of gaming for a generation or so (before the process they are doing now has to be done again), and I am thankful for this as it will (hopefully) bring more variety to games. Think of the variety that the movies, music and television industry has ... by expanding the games industry Nintendo will be creating a market for more detailed games in genres which have never been perfected, or even experimented with before. Back in the 1950's would movie producers have ever throught that a movie like Borat would have become popular ... or would have ever been made in the first place? I'm not saying I'd want every game to be like the film Borat was, but think of the possibilities in games if you could have the variety of games like there are a variety of films, or variety of TV shows, or the variety of music that is available right now ...

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#16 deactivated-5d6bb9cb2ee20
Member since 2006 • 82724 Posts

[QUOTE="charizard1605"][QUOTE="daqua_99"]

Without a doubt a great article in my opinion. I can see how Nintendo is gradually moving up the tiers in gaming, as could be seen through this years E3 (there was less talk about "non-traditional" games like Wii Play/Sport/Music/Fit and more about "traditional" games like NSMB Wii, SMG2, Spirit Tracks and Other M). I do not think that MS or Sony will "flee" the industry, as by the time the next generation of consoles will be released they will be able to "steal" some of the audience from them ... as long as their software is not perceived as all "blood and gore". I personally think that this new audience Nintendo will bring will (thankfully) end the view that a game has to be a shooter or have violence to be considered "hardcore" ... in no other entertainment industry is this the case, so why should it be with games?

daqua_99

Yes, I think you have percieved it correctly. Sony and Microsoft have invested a lot here after all, and we need competition. However, I still think that Nintendo will move back into the realms of hardcore gaming, possibly resulting in the Wii having the best library by the time this is through. This year's E3, as you said, is a prime example of what they're doing. Moving up the ladder- again. The Wii and the DS are a new beginning for Nintendo, and, by extension, the entire gaming industry

I also think that Nintendo will remain in the upper tiers of gaming for a generation or so (before the process they are doing now has to be done again), and I am thankful for this as it will (hopefully) bring more variety to games. Think of the variety that the movies, music and television industry has ... by expanding the games industry Nintendo will be creating a market for more detailed games in genres which have never been perfected, or even experimented with before. Back in the 1950's would movie producers have ever throught that a movie like Borat would have become popular ... or would have ever been made in the first place? I'm not saying I'd want every game to be like the film Borat was, but think of the possibilities in games if you could have the variety of games like there are a variety of films, or variety of TV shows, or the variety of music that is available right now ...

Yeah. For example, Wii Music was crappy, but who's to say it can't be refined and perfected into a really great and novel game? But I don't think Nintendo will have to do it repeat this all again, because, think about it, won't the other companies be doing the same thing?
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#17 primitive013
Member since 2003 • 1422 Posts

i love this bit...


Malstrom motions you to come closer. "Shh..." Malstrom whispers. "The real reason why so many in the Industry have rallied about casual gaming since the domination of the Wii is to escape blame for piss poor decision making. They talk of casual gaming like it was a 'new trend' despite it always existing and its increase on PCs were generating newspaper articles half a decade ago. By describing 'casual gaming' as an unforeseen explosion, they save their necks from investors who would have rightly penalized them for making bad business decisions. Pre-Wii, Nintendo talked about appealing to non-gamers and former gamers. Casual gamers are neither of those two."

The truth is that regular PC games and console games have begun overshooting the market for quite some time now. What is described as a 'casual game' used to be the 'bread and butter' of the Game Industry not too many years ago.

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daqua_99

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#18 daqua_99
Member since 2005 • 11170 Posts

Yeah. For example, Wii Music was crappy, but who's to say it can't be refined and perfected into a really great and novel game? But I don't think Nintendo will have to do it repeat this all again, because, think about it, won't the other companies be doing the same thing?charizard1605
True other companies might ... but a couple of generations is a very long time and who knows where the industry might be by then ...

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DOF_power

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#19 DOF_power
Member since 2008 • 804 Posts

I'll still take Modern Warfare 2.

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#20 deactivated-5d6bb9cb2ee20
Member since 2006 • 82724 Posts

i love this bit...


Malstrom motions you to come closer. "Shh..." Malstrom whispers. "The real reason why so many in the Industry have rallied about casual gaming since the domination of the Wii is to escape blame for piss poor decision making. They talk of casual gaming like it was a 'new trend' despite it always existing and its increase on PCs were generating newspaper articles half a decade ago. By describing 'casual gaming' as an unforeseen explosion, they save their necks from investors who would have rightly penalized them for making bad business decisions. Pre-Wii, Nintendo talked about appealing to non-gamers and former gamers. Casual gamers are neither of those two."

The truth is that regular PC games and console games have begun overshooting the market for quite some time now. What is described as a 'casual game' used to be the 'bread and butter' of the Game Industry not too many years ago.

primitive013

Yeah. Another great part was where he described how Nintendo will eventually edge out Sony and Microsoft from the hardcore space

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smilingjack889

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#21 smilingjack889
Member since 2009 • 25 Posts
nerdendo is probably the worst company ever. its days of glory are long gone.
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deactivated-5d6bb9cb2ee20

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#22 deactivated-5d6bb9cb2ee20
Member since 2006 • 82724 Posts

nerdendo is probably the worst company ever. its days of glory are long gone.smilingjack889
you created a new account just to say that?

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deactivated-5d6bb9cb2ee20

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#24 deactivated-5d6bb9cb2ee20
Member since 2006 • 82724 Posts
[QUOTE="charizard1605"]

[QUOTE="smilingjack889"]nerdendo is probably the worst company ever. its days of glory are long gone.smilingjack889

you created a new account just to say that?

yes, please, if you have a brain then stop supporting that cheap piece of plastic.

i have a brain. i also have guts to come out what i say, and not hide behind a fake id and go trolling on every thread i see
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bf2nutta

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#25 bf2nutta
Member since 2007 • 1356 Posts
Just reading it now but one thing has stood so far Flight Sims at Down Market >???????????????? he never played ATP, SU27 and even MS Flight Sim
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#26 Tylendal
Member since 2006 • 14681 Posts
This article, and the others on the site, are the reason why I never gave up on Nintendo, even during E3 08. However, I did leave System Wars for a while, because people just didn't see what, to people who have read this, is obvious.
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Iamsmee

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#27 Iamsmee
Member since 2008 • 470 Posts

[QUOTE="Iamsmee"]

sony and microsoft were and are still idiots, not news

Lionheart08

How does an idiot spank the top dog for two straight gens then? :?

No, Nintendo was the idiot, Sony using CDs wasn't original and it isn't hard to figure out, Nintendo NOT using CDs is what helped Sony. Third party support pilled onto the PSX, and continued through to PS2.

And PS2, DVD was the obvious next step, again this beat Nintendo because many many people got a PS2 as both a DVD player and a game console. And the third party support just kept on going.

Past that, Nintendo inter-changed high management on both Japanese and American fronts, Sony were idiots and thought they'd be third time lucky with a technology which was FAR from ready for the main market and they stuffed up because the same plan they go for each generation blew up into their faces.

For the most part, Sony won the races in PSX-PS2 because all the other gaming companies were stupid rather then doing anything over-arching themselves. Sega stuffed themselves up completely (lost their whole audience because of all the addons and new consoles they were adding) and even the greatest console that gen couldn't save them, and Nintendo didn't use CDs and didn't do anything drametic to change the market (and not have DVD capabilities either).

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Iamsmee

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#29 Iamsmee
Member since 2008 • 470 Posts

I'll still take Modern Warfare 2.

DOF_power

ya me too... on pc.... fps on 360/PS3 is lol

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12345yon

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#30 12345yon
Member since 2007 • 1073 Posts
Past: saved the industry Present: making crappy games Future: still making crappy games i have a Wii, and haved touched since i finished Madworld...
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CBR600-RR

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#31 CBR600-RR
Member since 2008 • 9695 Posts

Sorry but, I'll stick to the PS3, their games interest me more.

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deactivated-5dd711115e664

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#32 deactivated-5dd711115e664
Member since 2005 • 8956 Posts

Many of you might have already read this before; I did, after all, first hear about it in a thread on System Wars yesterday. But I read itin its entirety, and when I was through, I coud clearly see where we are headed... and if that is true, then brace yourself.

I want you guys to read this thesis, called Birdmen and the Casual Fallacy. It is simply brilliant.

I want you guys to read it fully, or you will miss the point of it. I know it's long, but basically, it's entertaining and enlightening, and therefore, I think you should check the whole thing out.

The author describes what Nintendo have done with the DS and the Wii... and he describes how and why the Wii is the future of hardcore gaming, and before somebody posts it, no, this has nothing to do with motion controls being integrated into all games, because that will not be the cause, that will just be the effect.

Seriously, read it. And you will understand. Nintendo are geniuses.

charizard1605

I read that story a long time ago when it was first making the rounds on the ol' interwebs. At that time the Wii was releasing a bunch of games that I liked and I was actually enjoying the Wii...so the article makes sense. However, that was then and this is now. I've barely touched the Wii since I got my PS3, and while some games have come out that interest me a little, it isn't enough to make me want to buy them.

Here is the flaws in the article AND Nintendo's plans as I see it. In the article he talks about up market and down market. Sounds good. He also says there is no casual gamer, which I STRONLY disagree with. However, I've said it many times before. He is suffering from the very same INCORRECT definition of "casual" that most people here, as well as the gaming media, have bought into.I hate the term "hardcore". To me there are casuals, and there are REAL gamers. Real gamers have always gamed and always will game. They gamed when it was considered lame or nerdy, they games during the big boom a decade ago, and they will continue to game if the industry has another crash period.

"Casuals" in my opinion, may spend a lot of money, play a lot of games, etc. What distinguishes them from the so-called "hardcore" is there desire to put their IMAGE before the games. They want games that look or sound cool and care little about gameplay or story or character or quality. What makes this group so hard to define and/or pinpoint, is the fact that EVERYONE starts out casual. Only over time does their status as "hardcore" become more clear. Will they grow and develop over time, or will they quit gaming the second it becomes less cool?

The way I see it, NIntendo isn't interested in EITHER of these groups. Nintendo wants to attract the NON-Gamer. The person who has never to rarely played a videogame in their life. Nintendo wants to convince these people that videogames are just like a crossword puzzle in the local paper...or sudoku. Hey! Pick up this game, play it for five minutes then go about your day! The reason I call these people NON-gamers, isn't because they aren't interested in some games. Sure, they may play bejeweled or Bran Age or whatever. I call them NON-gamers, because to this group of people, they aren't playing a videogame or console. No. Instead, theyare doing a puzzle or readinga magazine,or whatever metaphor you can think of to describe a mindless activity to kill a couple minutesin between commmercials or while waiting for company to come over. THey are playing the digital equivalent of a board game. It's a novelty. It's facebook. SOmething you can do without caring too much about it.

As this group continues to make billions for Nintendo, Nintendo is focusing more and more exclusively on them while, in my opinion, forgetting about people who just want some good games. Granted, E3 has shown that they haven't completely forgot, but it certainly isn't something they are too concerned about.

Here is where Nintendo will run into trouble and where that article is wrong. There is ZERO evidence that this new audience has ANY interest in eventually moving up market. ZERO. NONE. This group doesn't WANT to play videogames whether casually or otherwise. They just want a small distraction. And as such, Nintendo is alienating their base in order to keep happy a group who just aren't interested in the long-term. Does Nintendo OR the author of this article really believe the people buying Wii Fit, which polls have shown is played a lot for like a month then forgotten (much like all that other informercial exercise equipment your parents buy) is going to eventually move up market? Do they really believe that by trying so hard to capture this fickle group, that the younger kids who start with a Wii, will stick around when they get older and WANT more of those up market games? Of course not, because NIntendo is so driven by the non-gamers now, that there is very little up-market product available.

So what Nintendo is doing, is investing their future in a group that needs constant, short term distractions with little to NO long term payoff. Once they get bored with Wii Fit sequals they realize they don't use that much, or with Wii Sports, they will be gone. They aren't going to start buying Resident Evil or even Zelda. They will leave. Meanwhile, the younger generation Nintendo's wii also appeals to, will eventually grow up and look at the Wii as a product that no longer offers enough to keep them happy. So they will leave as well. They will move to a TRUE up-market console that not only offers a wide variety of games for all ages and tastes...but they will move to a console that offers more flash, substance, features, online play, movies, etc.

That leaves Nintendo with nothing.

Sure, the Up-market theory made a LOT of sense back when Nintendo was still putting out Zeldas and MArio Galaxies and No More Heroes, etc. But that was an eternity ago. Certainly before last years E3 when they showed nothing but Wii SPorts and Wii Music. That was before the massive drought in up market games. And while there have been SOME exceptions fairly recently, many of these games are still variations of the mini-game collection type games Nintendo gets bashed for. Yes, I'm including Madword and No More Heroes in that list. And whil the new Punchout looks cool....I still have and play the original Punch OUt. I still love it and bought it for MUCH less on Virtual Console than the new version costs.

This years E3 was somewhat of a relief. A new 2D Mario is something I've been begging for for a decade. THIS is what NIntendo should be focusing on...this is TRULY a game designed to move people up market. How do I know this? Because it worked for everyone here, didn't it? Galaxy 2 is another great announcement but who know how long they'll make us wait for a game that is practically finished already. And their token third party announcements were most on-rails shooters. Meh. Certainly not enough to compete with the wide ranging wow-factor of what the 360 and PS3 showed.

Sorry, but this is reality. There is no up market for Nintendo at this point. They are wasting too much time and effort to make a quick buck off people who will leave them high and dry. Meanwhile, they are shedding the audience who has stuck with them and/or SHOULD be growing up with them. Nintendo has become the console version of twitter or facebook. A novelty for people who aren't that savvy and looking for a cool, fun distraction to share with their friends. But ultimately, it is something they will lose interest in quickly resulting in a 70% drop out rate.

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#33 flazzle
Member since 2007 • 6507 Posts

Best article I read in awhile. thank you for sharing. it should be a must read.

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#34 enterawesome
Member since 2009 • 9477 Posts
That was a bit TOO long, but what I gathered is that intendo is breeding the less cabable gamers into ones who will experience the awesomeness and challenge of bridge titles like Phantom Hourglass, and create a whole new batch of skilled gamers? I won't lie, that article didn't entirely make sense to me.
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#35 Miroku32
Member since 2006 • 8666 Posts

@ZIMdoom, Nintendo has done something good by attracting casual gamers or people who have never ever played videogames. I remember last year that one of my classmates was planning to buy a wii for his grandma so she could play Wii Sports, or a pal that their father bought a DS for play Brain Age. Those tiles are the ones who attract casual and Nintendo took the risk, if they failed then they for sure were out of the console business but it worked and now they returned to be the dominant console sellers. Personally I think that Nintendo can improve gameplay stuff with their consoles despite not being the best in graphics but the graphics isnt the important in a game. You can have the best graphics in the world but if you have a game that has a sucky gameplay why would you play it?. I read somewhere that Nintendo would make virtual gaming and I think they will but in the future. The plans of Microsoft and Sony of making new motion stuff will fail for sure for attract casual gamers. As for me I play more my ps3 than my wii but thats because Im hardcoreand not casualand Nintendo made alot of casual games for the Wii. Also I have read (correct me if Im wrong) that between the three consoles, Sony ps3 games have better score than 360 or Wii, being the Wii the last one but casual gamers dont mind that, they just want to have a good time playing with their friends or family.

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#36 deactivated-5dd711115e664
Member since 2005 • 8956 Posts

No, Nintendo was the idiot, Sony using CDs wasn't original and it isn't hard to figure out, Nintendo NOT using CDs is what helped Sony. Third party support pilled onto the PSX, and continued through to PS2.

And PS2, DVD was the obvious next step, again this beat Nintendo because many many people got a PS2 as both a DVD player and a game console. And the third party support just kept on going.

Past that, Nintendo inter-changed high management on both Japanese and American fronts, Sony were idiots and thought they'd be third time lucky with a technology which was FAR from ready for the main market and they stuffed up because the same plan they go for each generation blew up into their faces.

For the most part, Sony won the races in PSX-PS2 because all the other gaming companies were stupid rather then doing anything over-arching themselves. Sega stuffed themselves up completely (lost their whole audience because of all the addons and new consoles they were adding) and even the greatest console that gen couldn't save them, and Nintendo didn't use CDs and didn't do anything drametic to change the market (and not have DVD capabilities either).

Iamsmee

Sorry, but it had very little to do with CDs, and everything with Nintendo, and too a lesser extent Sega, trying to use their control of the industry to blackmail developers.

When Sony announced they would be releasing the PSX (PS1), developers were interested in getting out from the controlling thumb of Nintendo. Nintendo basically gave developers a "with us or against us" ultimatum. However, Sony was offering the lowest dev fees, allowing developers to make ANY game they wanted, and came out of the gate with a guarantee that they would NOT compete against their own devs. By comparison, Nintendo had very high DEV fees PLUS developers had to buy Nintendo's carts which was another added cost. Nintendo had a reputation for producing "family" entertainment and often told developers what kinds of games they could or could not make for a Nintendo console. We all remember the Mortal Kombat disaster. Also, Nintendo was notorious for releasing one of their own big titles like Mario on the same day as one of their own developers was planning on releasing their own platformer, or whatever genre.

In short, it wasn't just carts. Carts were a very small issue compared to the entire atmosphere NIntendo had created with their dominant position in the industry. Developers said "screw you" and left Nintendo in DROVES...which is something they are still struggling at getting back in a serious way.

Sega also had higher dev fees at the time but were hurt more by shoddy hardware and their constant ditching of consoles in order to rush to market first each gen. Plus a stream of poorly conceived and even WORSELY supported add-ons like the 32X, etc.

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#37 Miroku32
Member since 2006 • 8666 Posts

Well before Sony launched the ps3 they thought that because they dominated with the ps1 and ps2 they would of course dominate with the ps3 but it failed and crappy Nintendo with their childish and stupid console that was targeted for kids and old people is winning. Its the same, Nintendo dominated with the NES and the SNES and when the 64 was released they thought that cds would lose, they thought wrong and the cartridges were the ones that didnt work.

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#38 deactivated-5dd711115e664
Member since 2005 • 8956 Posts

@ZIMdoom, Nintendo has done something good by attracting casual gamers or people who have never ever played videogames. I remember last year that one of my classmates was planning to buy a wii for his grandma so she could play Wii Sports, or a pal that their father bought a DS for play Brain Age. Those tiles are the ones who attract casual and Nintendo took the risk, if they failed then they for sure were out of the console business but it worked and now they returned to be the dominant console sellers. Personally I think that Nintendo can improve gameplay stuff with their consoles despite not being the best in graphics but the graphics isnt the important in a game. You can have the best graphics in the world but if you have a game that has a sucky gameplay why would you play it?. I read somewhere that Nintendo would make virtual gaming and I think they will but in the future. The plans of Microsoft and Sony of making new motion stuff will fail for sure for attract casual gamers. As for me I play more my ps3 than my wii but thats because Im hardcoreand not casualand Nintendo made alot of casual games for the Wii. Also I have read (correct me if Im wrong) that between the three consoles, Sony ps3 games have better score than 360 or Wii, being the Wii the last one but casual gamers dont mind that, they just want to have a good time playing with their friends or family.

Miroku32

You have very clearly missed my point. Nintendo is downplaying their long-time audience. The people who have already started moving "up market" in fabour of this new audience. An audience I made the case for as NOT being "casual". The fact you call them casual clearly says you didn't even read my post (although it was long).

But to sum up....do you really think that Grandma or Father care about games, consoles or Nintendo? Do you really think they are going to stick around and buy other products/games and move "up market" as the article suggests? No, of course not. This has nothing to do with gameplay or graphics or anything like that. It has everything to do with Nintendo desperately trying to appeal to a market that is going to lose interest in gaming (and Nintendo), just as quickly as they gained it.

Then where is Nintendo? They have alienated the REAL gamers, have done nothing to move new younger gamers "up market" on their own console, and have wasted all the time and energy that went into appealing to an audience who left the second some new cheap social trend comes along.

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#39 deactivated-63f6895020e66
Member since 2004 • 21177 Posts
I agree with that article. Nintendo has done some very good moves this gen. They have increased the size of their userbase and the company as a whole, and also have made some excellent 1st party games.
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#40 Miroku32
Member since 2006 • 8666 Posts

[QUOTE="Miroku32"]

@ZIMdoom, Nintendo has done something good by attracting casual gamers or people who have never ever played videogames. I remember last year that one of my classmates was planning to buy a wii for his grandma so she could play Wii Sports, or a pal that their father bought a DS for play Brain Age. Those tiles are the ones who attract casual and Nintendo took the risk, if they failed then they for sure were out of the console business but it worked and now they returned to be the dominant console sellers. Personally I think that Nintendo can improve gameplay stuff with their consoles despite not being the best in graphics but the graphics isnt the important in a game. You can have the best graphics in the world but if you have a game that has a sucky gameplay why would you play it?. I read somewhere that Nintendo would make virtual gaming and I think they will but in the future. The plans of Microsoft and Sony of making new motion stuff will fail for sure for attract casual gamers. As for me I play more my ps3 than my wii but thats because Im hardcoreand not casualand Nintendo made alot of casual games for the Wii. Also I have read (correct me if Im wrong) that between the three consoles, Sony ps3 games have better score than 360 or Wii, being the Wii the last one but casual gamers dont mind that, they just want to have a good time playing with their friends or family.

ZIMdoom

You have very clearly missed my point. Nintendo is downplaying their long-time audience. The people who have already started moving "up market" in fabour of this new audience. An audience I made the case for as NOT being "casual". The fact you call them casual clearly says you didn't even read my post (although it was long).

But to sum up....do you really think that Grandma or Father care about games, consoles or Nintendo? Do you really think they are going to stick around and buy other products/games and move "up market" as the article suggests? No, of course not. This has nothing to do with gameplay or graphics or anything like that. It has everything to do with Nintendo desperately trying to appeal to a market that is going to lose interest in gaming (and Nintendo), just as quickly as they gained it.

Then where is Nintendo? They have alienated the REAL gamers, have done nothing to move new younger gamers "up market" on their own console, and have wasted all the time and energy that went into appealing to an audience who left the second some new cheap social trend comes along.

Lets see what will happen when Wii Sports Resort and the new motion stuff for the Wii Remote are released. Lets just wait and see.

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#41 deactivated-5dd711115e664
Member since 2005 • 8956 Posts

Lets see what will happen when Wii Sports Resort and the new motion stuff for the Wii Remote are released. Lets just wait and see.

Miroku32

I can agree with that. I don't think Nintendo can't change, or do more. I think their E3 this year isa sign that they are going to start trying more to appeal to everyone. Not just the seniors and soccer moms. I mean, having more than one Mario game this gen is a big deal I think. It's been a while since they've done that. And their willingness to promote those on-rails shooters, while not as up market as the real versions of those games, they are a start.

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#42 deactivated-5d6bb9cb2ee20
Member since 2006 • 82724 Posts

[QUOTE="charizard1605"]

Many of you might have already read this before; I did, after all, first hear about it in a thread on System Wars yesterday. But I read itin its entirety, and when I was through, I coud clearly see where we are headed... and if that is true, then brace yourself.

I want you guys to read this thesis, called Birdmen and the Casual Fallacy. It is simply brilliant.

I want you guys to read it fully, or you will miss the point of it. I know it's long, but basically, it's entertaining and enlightening, and therefore, I think you should check the whole thing out.

The author describes what Nintendo have done with the DS and the Wii... and he describes how and why the Wii is the future of hardcore gaming, and before somebody posts it, no, this has nothing to do with motion controls being integrated into all games, because that will not be the cause, that will just be the effect.

Seriously, read it. And you will understand. Nintendo are geniuses.

ZIMdoom

I read that story a long time ago when it was first making the rounds on the ol' interwebs. At that time the Wii was releasing a bunch of games that I liked and I was actually enjoying the Wii...so the article makes sense. However, that was then and this is now. I've barely touched the Wii since I got my PS3, and while some games have come out that interest me a little, it isn't enough to make me want to buy them.

Here is the flaws in the article AND Nintendo's plans as I see it. In the article he talks about up market and down market. Sounds good. He also says there is no casual gamer, which I STRONLY disagree with. However, I've said it many times before. He is suffering from the very same INCORRECT definition of "casual" that most people here, as well as the gaming media, have bought into.I hate the term "hardcore". To me there are casuals, and there are REAL gamers. Real gamers have always gamed and always will game. They gamed when it was considered lame or nerdy, they games during the big boom a decade ago, and they will continue to game if the industry has another crash period.

"Casuals" in my opinion, may spend a lot of money, play a lot of games, etc. What distinguishes them from the so-called "hardcore" is there desire to put their IMAGE before the games. They want games that look or sound cool and care little about gameplay or story or character or quality. What makes this group so hard to define and/or pinpoint, is the fact that EVERYONE starts out casual. Only over time does their status as "hardcore" become more clear. Will they grow and develop over time, or will they quit gaming the second it becomes less cool?

The way I see it, NIntendo isn't interested in EITHER of these groups. Nintendo wants to attract the NON-Gamer. The person who has never to rarely played a videogame in their life. Nintendo wants to convince these people that videogames are just like a crossword puzzle in the local paper...or sudoku. Hey! Pick up this game, play it for five minutes then go about your day! The reason I call these people NON-gamers, isn't because they aren't interested in some games. Sure, they may play bejeweled or Bran Age or whatever. I call them NON-gamers, because to this group of people, they aren't playing a videogame or console. No. Instead, theyare doing a puzzle or readinga magazine,or whatever metaphor you can think of to describe a mindless activity to kill a couple minutesin between commmercials or while waiting for company to come over. THey are playing the digital equivalent of a board game. It's a novelty. It's facebook. SOmething you can do without caring too much about it.

As this group continues to make billions for Nintendo, Nintendo is focusing more and more exclusively on them while, in my opinion, forgetting about people who just want some good games. Granted, E3 has shown that they haven't completely forgot, but it certainly isn't something they are too concerned about.

Here is where Nintendo will run into trouble and where that article is wrong. There is ZERO evidence that this new audience has ANY interest in eventually moving up market. ZERO. NONE. This group doesn't WANT to play videogames whether casually or otherwise. They just want a small distraction. And as such, Nintendo is alienating their base in order to keep happy a group who just aren't interested in the long-term. Does Nintendo OR the author of this article really believe the people buying Wii Fit, which polls have shown is played a lot for like a month then forgotten (much like all that other informercial exercise equipment your parents buy) is going to eventually move up market? Do they really believe that by trying so hard to capture this fickle group, that the younger kids who start with a Wii, will stick around when they get older and WANT more of those up market games? Of course not, because NIntendo is so driven by the non-gamers now, that there is very little up-market product available.

So what Nintendo is doing, is investing their future in a group that needs constant, short term distractions with little to NO long term payoff. Once they get bored with Wii Fit sequals they realize they don't use that much, or with Wii Sports, they will be gone. They aren't going to start buying Resident Evil or even Zelda. They will leave. Meanwhile, the younger generation Nintendo's wii also appeals to, will eventually grow up and look at the Wii as a product that no longer offers enough to keep them happy. So they will leave as well. They will move to a TRUE up-market console that not only offers a wide variety of games for all ages and tastes...but they will move to a console that offers more flash, substance, features, online play, movies, etc.

That leaves Nintendo with nothing.

Sure, the Up-market theory made a LOT of sense back when Nintendo was still putting out Zeldas and MArio Galaxies and No More Heroes, etc. But that was an eternity ago. Certainly before last years E3 when they showed nothing but Wii SPorts and Wii Music. That was before the massive drought in up market games. And while there have been SOME exceptions fairly recently, many of these games are still variations of the mini-game collection type games Nintendo gets bashed for. Yes, I'm including Madword and No More Heroes in that list. And whil the new Punchout looks cool....I still have and play the original Punch OUt. I still love it and bought it for MUCH less on Virtual Console than the new version costs.

This years E3 was somewhat of a relief. A new 2D Mario is something I've been begging for for a decade. THIS is what NIntendo should be focusing on...this is TRULY a game designed to move people up market. How do I know this? Because it worked for everyone here, didn't it? Galaxy 2 is another great announcement but who know how long they'll make us wait for a game that is practically finished already. And their token third party announcements were most on-rails shooters. Meh. Certainly not enough to compete with the wide ranging wow-factor of what the 360 and PS3 showed.

Sorry, but this is reality. There is no up market for Nintendo at this point. They are wasting too much time and effort to make a quick buck off people who will leave them high and dry. Meanwhile, they are shedding the audience who has stuck with them and/or SHOULD be growing up with them. Nintendo has become the console version of twitter or facebook. A novelty for people who aren't that savvy and looking for a cool, fun distraction to share with their friends. But ultimately, it is something they will lose interest in quickly resulting in a 70% drop out rate.

You made some very interesting points here. Now, what I'm going to say is not to dispute your stand or statements at all... it is just to give you something to think over... You do allege in your reply that there is zero evidence that the 'Downmarket' is interested in moving to the 'Upmarket' (or, in SW words, that the asuals are interested in turning hardcore), and yet, the evidence was provided in the article- the arc that the DS followed, and how, step by step, Nintendo led gamers owning the system from absolutre casual games like Nintendogs and Brain Age to the more hardcore ones like Mario Kart DS and New Super Mario Bros and finally, to The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass and Pokemon Diamond/Pearl. And all of them sold like crazy. My point is that Nintendo has been following a similar pattern on the Wii and if this year's E3, as well as the sudden third party boom that the Wii seems to be experiencing, are any indicators, we will soon have a similiar situation with the Wii as well, with the system becoming totally 'hardcore.'

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#43 Dr_Snood
Member since 2008 • 2547 Posts
That was a good read, thanks for showing me that.
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#44 deactivated-5dd711115e664
Member since 2005 • 8956 Posts

You made some very interesting points here. Now, what I'm going to say is not to dispute your stand or statements at all... it is just to give you something to think over... You do allege in your reply that there is zero evidence that the 'Downmarket' is interested in moving to the 'Upmarket' (or, in SW words, that the asuals are interested in turning hardcore), and yet, the evidence was provided in the article- the arc that the DS followed, and how, step by step, Nintendo led gamers owning the system from absolutre casual games like Nintendogs and Brain Age to the more hardcore ones like Mario Kart DS and New Super Mario Bros and finally, to The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass and Pokemon Diamond/Pearl. And all of them sold like crazy. My point is that Nintendo has been following a similar pattern on the Wii and if this year's E3, as well as the sudden third party boom that the Wii seems to be experiencing, are any indicators, we will soon have a similiar situation with the Wii as well, with the system becoming totally 'hardcore.'

charizard1605

I think there is some confusion between correlation and causation. Mainly because of the articles vauge, and I believe inappropriate, definition of "casual" gamer.

First off, there is no evidence that the success ofthe DS, Pokemon, or Mario Kart has anything to do with the people who wanted Nintendogs or Brain Age. I would argue that since the Gameboy and GBA were both extremely popular with gamers of all sorts, the DS was guaranteed to succeed just as much.

Second,games like POkemon and MarioKart and Zelda already have proven to have LARGE followings and sales way before the DS, Brain Age, or Nintendo's new "upmarket" plans came into effect. So I think it is more than a little naive to think that these games are now only successful thanks to Nintendo appealing to non-gamers, bringing them into the market, then moving them "up market". Maybe Nintendogs wasn't successful because it brought in new gamers and moved them up...maybe it was successful because it received good ratings and had enough appeal to attract ALL gamers to begin with?

Third and finally, I would also argue that games like POkemon, Mario, etc already have an existing appeal to kids regardless of whether they are "upmarket" or "down market". Ifanything, I would argue that thesegamesdo more to bring in and HOLD the majority of audience, compared togames like brain age. Isn't it Mario that brough most of US into gaming in the first place? Isn't it the massive success of Pokemon the cartoon, card games, etc, that brough kids into the videogame? Isn't the quality of the game what makes it successful considering practically every "hardcore" or "up market" gamer I know owns at least ONE of the Gameboy versions?

UNfortunately, I now read this article and instead of an actual logical arguement, I see someone trying to take Nintendos success in an area they have dominated for decades (handhelds), and trying to evenly apply that to the Wii. It just doesn't take reality into account. The DS was guaranteed to be huge because Nintendo has dominated the handheld market for ever. Most of those games weren't huge because other games moved people up-market towards them...they were HUGE way before.

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#45 Zaistev_basic
Member since 2002 • 2975 Posts

[QUOTE="charizard1605"]

You made some very interesting points here. Now, what I'm going to say is not to dispute your stand or statements at all... it is just to give you something to think over... You do allege in your reply that there is zero evidence that the 'Downmarket' is interested in moving to the 'Upmarket' (or, in SW words, that the asuals are interested in turning hardcore), and yet, the evidence was provided in the article- the arc that the DS followed, and how, step by step, Nintendo led gamers owning the system from absolutre casual games like Nintendogs and Brain Age to the more hardcore ones like Mario Kart DS and New Super Mario Bros and finally, to The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass and Pokemon Diamond/Pearl. And all of them sold like crazy. My point is that Nintendo has been following a similar pattern on the Wii and if this year's E3, as well as the sudden third party boom that the Wii seems to be experiencing, are any indicators, we will soon have a similiar situation with the Wii as well, with the system becoming totally 'hardcore.'

ZIMdoom

I think there is some confusion between correlation and causation. Mainly because of the articles vauge, and I believe inappropriate, definition of "casual" gamer.

First off, there is no evidence that the success ofthe DS, Pokemon, or Mario Kart has anything to do with the people who wanted Nintendogs or Brain Age. I would argue that since the Gameboy and GBA were both extremely popular with gamers of all sorts, the DS was guaranteed to succeed just as much.

Second,games like POkemon and MarioKart and Zelda already have proven to have LARGE followings and sales way before the DS, Brain Age, or Nintendo's new "upmarket" plans came into effect. So I think it is more than a little naive to think that these games are now only successful thanks to Nintendo appealing to non-gamers, bringing them into the market, then moving them "up market". Maybe Nintendogs wasn't successful because it brought in new gamers and moved them up...maybe it was successful because it received good ratings and had enough appeal to attract ALL gamers to begin with?

Third and finally, I would also argue that games like POkemon, Mario, etc already have an existing appeal to kids regardless of whether they are "upmarket" or "down market". Ifanything, I would argue that thesegamesdo more to bring in and HOLD the majority of audience, compared togames like brain age. Isn't it Mario that brough most of US into gaming in the first place? Isn't it the massive success of Pokemon the cartoon, card games, etc, that brough kids into the videogame? Isn't the quality of the game what makes it successful considering practically every "hardcore" or "up market" gamer I know owns at least ONE of the Gameboy versions?

UNfortunately, I now read this article and instead of an actual logical arguement, I see someone trying to take Nintendos success in an area they have dominated for decades (handhelds), and trying to evenly apply that to the Wii. It just doesn't take reality into account. The DS was guaranteed to be huge because Nintendo has dominated the handheld market for ever. Most of those games weren't huge because other games moved people up-market towards them...they were HUGE way before.

I understand your point and also read the article. The real problem here is what the first few paragraphs that was stated in the article, the "Hardcore Worldview." This worldview that the a lot of 3rd party believe and still believes is the one that can bring the video games industry down. It is their stubbornes to insist their games that is dragging the industry down as proven by the massive financial losses of game developers.

read this article here : http://www.slate.com/id/2210732/pagenum/2

First, developing HD games cost is getting higher than lower. There are games like GTA 4, HALO, etc, that have produce massive profits, but those are not enough to compensate for other HD games that are maybe AAA, but poor in revenue.

Second the economy is still in recession and even after the recovery, consumer confidence will not go back to the way it was during the PS1 and PS2 era. I believe and it is apparent that 3rd party have failed to understand the market and insisted in their worldview of gaming. ZIMdoom, you should understand that most people have other thing to do in life than just gaming. This is what Wii was able to penetrate. X360 and PS3 requires time, dedication, and understanding of more complex games of HD. That's one reason why casual (and it does not mean "idiot"), or I rather call them PRACTICAL Gamers, who just play video games just for entertainment (which really is) than a hobby or worst activity.

It is true what the "Birdmen and Casual Fallacy" is saying that a lot of 3rd party only thinks Wii and casual gamers as "idiot gamers." Afterall, those who created video games nowadays are guided by old false tradition of gaming of linear graphics leap with less gameplay. Graphics improves gameplay BUT it does not make the gameplay.

Also, not all Hardcore gamers thinks the same way as Maelstrum describes them. However, his definition of hardcore gaming is more accurately can be describe tothe ELITIST Gamers like fanboys, game editors, 3rd party developers, etc... which have plague and put down the video game industry in a financial catastrophe with their unreasonable linear emphasis for graphics and physics (that is way expensive), and surprising, relies way too much on reharshes with very few tweaks of gameplay from its predecessor.

Mario comes as an example but at least its gameplay was way different in Mario Galaxy from previous Mario Sunshine, compare toGears of War 1 to Gears of War 2, or Halo 2 to Halo 3. Big Difference.

Still the Article made some serious valid points, and one evidence of his point, indirectly, is when Sony and Microsoft are taking motion sensing very seriously.

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#46 789shadow
Member since 2006 • 20195 Posts

A round of applause for this fantastic article.

*massive applause*

I especially liked this little bit:

Third Parties:My casual games aren't selling!!!!WAAAAUUUGHHHH!!!!!!

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#47 OniStrat
Member since 2003 • 1800 Posts

Great article. Best I've read in a long time. It's also very interesting, and many parts of the article have already become true.

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#48 legol1
Member since 2005 • 1998 Posts
very interesting read , it help me understand nintendo more ,and i think nintendo is not the only one understanding the disruptive concept guitar hero is a great example of a brige game ,mgs4 make you feel badass with the clever use of cinematic, bioshock demo was adictive like crack .
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#49 deactivated-5dd711115e664
Member since 2005 • 8956 Posts

I understand your point and also read the article. The real problem here is what the first few paragraphs that was stated in the article, the "Hardcore Worldview." This worldview that the a lot of 3rd party believe and still believes is the one that can bring the video games industry down. It is their stubbornes to insist their games that is dragging the industry down as proven by the massive financial losses of game developers.

read this article here : http://www.slate.com/id/2210732/pagenum/2

First, developing HD games cost is getting higher than lower. There are games like GTA 4, HALO, etc, that have produce massive profits, but those are not enough to compensate for other HD games that are maybe AAA, but poor in revenue.

Second the economy is still in recession and even after the recovery, consumer confidence will not go back to the way it was during the PS1 and PS2 era. I believe and it is apparent that 3rd party have failed to understand the market and insisted in their worldview of gaming. ZIMdoom, you should understand that most people have other thing to do in life than just gaming. This is what Wii was able to penetrate. X360 and PS3 requires time, dedication, and understanding of more complex games of HD. That's one reason why casual (and it does not mean "idiot"), or I rather call them PRACTICAL Gamers, who just play video games just for entertainment (which really is) than a hobby or worst activity.

It is true what the "Birdmen and Casual Fallacy" is saying that a lot of 3rd party only thinks Wii and casual gamers as "idiot gamers." Afterall, those who created video games nowadays are guided by old false tradition of gaming of linear graphics leap with less gameplay. Graphics improves gameplay BUT it does not make the gameplay.

Also, not all Hardcore gamers thinks the same way as Maelstrum describes them. However, his definition of hardcore gaming is more accurately can be describe tothe ELITIST Gamers like fanboys, game editors, 3rd party developers, etc... which have plague and put down the video game industry in a financial catastrophe with their unreasonable linear emphasis for graphics and physics (that is way expensive), and surprising, relies way too much on reharshes with very few tweaks of gameplay from its predecessor.

Mario comes as an example but at least its gameplay was way different in Mario Galaxy from previous Mario Sunshine, compare toGears of War 1 to Gears of War 2, or Halo 2 to Halo 3. Big Difference.

Still the Article made some serious valid points, and one evidence of his point, indirectly, is when Sony and Microsoft are taking motion sensing very seriously.

Zaistev_basic

Well, I would argue that the people that Maelstrum describe are, in fact, casual themselves. Gamers who care less about gaming as a whole, and playing great games...but instead gamers who only care about image and flash and bragging regardless of game quality.

Second, I totally agree with his premise that developers think "retarded" when they say casual and that is why so many games get butchered. Totally agree.

Where I disagree is in his implication that Nintendo's business plan is currently about moving more gamers up market. I also disagree that this article proves "Nintendo is geniuses" as stated in the thread title. I see little to NO attempt by Nintendo to bring their new audeince along for the long term gaming ride. Further, with games like Wii Music coming out, I would say that NIntendo themselves views their new "casual" audience as being "retarded" also.

I also disagree that games like Mario or Zelda are "hardcore". THOSE are the games that move people up market, while still appealing to long time gamers...not crap like Wii Music.

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Shinobi120

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#50 Shinobi120
Member since 2004 • 5728 Posts

That's a very good article I've read! Thanks!