No Raytracing for NAVI 5700 series. Disappointed?

Meh. While Raytracing is nice, it's still niche and not worth the performance penalties. Next gen models could be better, but the tech is still in its infancy stage for gaming.

So much for next gen consoles doing 8K, 120FPS and ray-tracing. AMD said that even RDNA cards won't offer full screen ray-tracing support apart from some effects.

RX 5700 doesn't have bounding volume hierarchy (BVH) "hardware accelerated" ray-tracing, but it has support for Radeon Rays 3.x which is BVH ray-tracing via shader cores.

Existing fat DX12 GPUs can handle SVOGI based ray-tracing from Crytek.

The impact from NAVI's CU design on shader software BVH ray-tracing has yet to be seen.

That's true. I'd like to see a few caps before 2020 for post navi rt performance against something like pascal.

*crosses fingers for 2020 models used by ps and xbox*

I think both just blew their load early to pre-empt lots of upcoming leaks soon.

RTX couldn't do full screen real time ray-tracing without de-noise and filtering.

https://news.developer.nvidia.com/denoising-and-filtering-part-v-of-ray-tracing-gems/

Here is the forward for Part V, written by Jacob Munkberg, senior research scientist in NVIDIA’s real-time rendering research group:

“Denoising and filtering are integral parts of a ray tracing pipeline. In a real-time setting, one can afford only a handful of rays per pixel, often randomly distributed. Consequently, the result is inherently noisy. By combining these sparse (but correct) per-pixel evaluations with spatiotemporal filters, variance is drastically reduced at the cost of increased bias, which is often a reasonable trade-off in real-time rendering. Furthermore, each ray is a point sample, which can introduce aliasing. By prefiltering terms where possible, e.g., texture lookups, aliasing can be reduced. This part introduces several practical examples of denoising and filtering for real-time ray Tracing.

“Chapter 19, ‘Cinematic Rendering in UE4 with Real-Time Ray Tracing and Denoising,’ presents a detailed overview of integrating ray tracing in a modern game engine. By combining rasterization with GPU-accelerated DirectX Raytracing and custom denoising filters, the authors reach previously unseen image fidelity at interactive rates. In two comprehensive demos they showcase soft shadows, glossy reflections, and diffuse indirect illumination.

http://cgicoffee.com/blog/2018/03/what-is-nvidia-rtx-directx-dxr

Reality check. What is NVIDIA RTX Technology? What is DirectX DXR? Here's what they can and cannot do

The above screenshot is RTX without de-noise pass.

NVIDIA RTX has RT(ray-tracing BVH search and intersect test hardware) and Tensor cores (de-noise)

-----------------

RDNA serves as the basis for AMD's hardware accelerated ray-tracing.

lol you stay in damage control over consoles don't you? funny guy.

So you want to pay for a feature you cannot use? Listen, AMD or Nvidia fanboy shit aside, it is a better purchase than a GTX 2070. People buy a feature they have to turn off, the whole RTX range is not ready and is a pile of dog turd.

With proper resource budgeting, RTX can be used sparingly with de-noise. NVIDIA's developer relations tends to push towards high-end and expensive GPU purchases.

Cloud variant seems to be large NAVI replacement for Vega II server replacement.

Bleh this card looks great and been looking for an excuse to upgrade my 1070, but just got a new 144 MHz screen with G-sync which costed a small fortune so would be a bit of a waste to get a non Nvidia card I think..

There's only one choice for HDMI Freesync and it's AMD.

Turing's Freesync support is only Display Port.

Out of curiosity, is the XT going to be strong enough for 1440p/144Hz?

So, consoles will have ray tracing with Navi but PC wouldn't?

5700 XT is like an overclocked RTX 2070.

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/Radeon_VII/8.html

For Battlefield V, 5700 XT wouldn't be enough for 144 hz and it would need Free-Sync or slightly tone down graphics detail settings.

5700 XT has rivalled Vega II's results on Battlefield V.

5700 XT's gain is between RTX 2070 and Vega II results i.e. 55.74 fps. This is NVIDIA Gameworks title.

5700 XT is pretty good for 40 CU scaled results and it's a good foundation for large scaled NAVI GPUs

Thanks.

@ronvalencia said:

@Random_Matt said:

@ronvalencia said:

@Random_Matt said:

So you want to pay for a feature you cannot use? Listen, AMD or Nvidia fanboy shit aside, it is a better purchase than a GTX 2070. People buy a feature they have to turn off, the whole RTX range is not ready and is a pile of dog turd.

With proper resource budgeting, RTX can be used sparingly with de-noise. NVIDIA's developer relations tends to push towards high-end and expensive GPU purchases.

Out of curiosity, is the XT going to be strong enough for 1440p/144Hz?

5700 XT is like an overclocked RTX 2070.

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/Radeon_VII/8.html

For Battlefield V, 5700 XT wouldn't be enough for 144 hz and it would need Free-Sync or slightly tone down graphics detail settings.

Xbox Scarlet has been confirmed with hardware accelerated ray-tracing as per Microsoft's DXR accelerated structure.

PC NAVI gains hardware accelerated ray-tracing (DXR, BVH search tree ray-tracing model) with the next NAVI release.

Current fat DirectX12 GPUs can handle Crytek's CryEngine 5.5+ SVOGI (Sparse Voxel Octree Global Illumination) based ray-tracing methods.

Would Sony follow Microsoft's DXR for their PS5?

I wasnt expecting it so i'm not disappointed. im just wondering what Sony and MS mean when they say they do have support for raytracing in their consoles.

• is it a case that MS, sony and AMD worked on the tech and as part of the deal the X2 and PS5 get the first crack at it? this is not unheard of.
• is it just not ready but will be ready by the time the consoles are finalised and manufacturing begins (this time next year for that point for scarlett for example).
• have MS and sony gone down a more customised/specialised add on chip perhaps (if that is possible)?
• are they referring to that crytek demo from a while back and saying "yep...that our ray tracking approach for the PS5/X2".
• are they talking crap? :P

it will be interesting to see what the story is on that front.

as for the cards....they look very solid from what i have seen. its a 2060/2070 without the RT stuff but at a cheaper price. neither the 2060 nor 2070 are really capable on the RT side of things. so the lack of RT isnt really a loss.

it looks like they are putting a lot of work now into efficiency and gaming performance (rather than just peak compute) too which is good. they will need it for the mobile space especially but it certainly wont hurt in the other sectors.

i was kinda wishing (and i knew it was a long shot) that AMD could release the radeon 1080ti basically. or a radeon gtx 2080Ti (far fetched at the moment). a card with that level of performance without the RT stuff for a bit less money. maybe big navi next year.

will i get one? unlikely simply because the jump from my RX 580 is not big enough.

5800 series?... God no you really don't even want them to try.

The XT is only using 40 CU's and is at 220 watts.

They need to take this GCN hybrid and set it on fire and release their real next gen architechure before Nvidia hits them with 7nm... I mean the RTX 2070 has a lower TDP than the Pro and the pro is meant to compete with the RTX 2060 and it has dedicated ray tracing on the chip.

Remember when RTX came out and people went crazy at the prices?... Well its 10 months later and AMD matched the price to performance but doesn't have ray tracing and draws more power!

Absolutely no, hardware ray-tracing is a terrible stop gap from the real meet and potatoes of refraction based processing. Pathtracing.

I'm a 10000000% proponent of pathtracing via cloud and specifically bi-directional pathtracing. Which judging from screenshots above is what AMD is seeking.

Not surprised at all considering that major publishers are hailing nVidia as the inventor of raytracing. We'll probably see hardware-neutral implementations within a few years if CryEngine's Vega 56 tech demo says anything.

Is nice to see you downplaying consoles on a thread about a PC GPU..lol

It's still possible to do software ray-tracing.

Cyberpunk 2077 confirmed to launch with nvidia rtx support

Nvi 5700 supports ray tracing........this thread is a flop and OP is a tool.

It's far too early for real-time. I have an RTX 2080, and I wouldn't even both with real-time ATM... I'll wait a couple gens.

1st gen Navi is supposed to get a software based solution along with GCN, with 2nd gen Navi having dedicated RT hardware. I'm interested to see how AMD adds RT hardware and whether it's RT only, or useful for other things.

The cards will take a hit in the second hand market because of it, but since the 2060/70 level of power is still a bit lacking for RT anyway, it's not a big deal. Maybe by the time 5800/XT are out, AMD will implement their own RT tech.

Just as I thought. Also both the PS5 and Xbox2 are based on Navi 20, the card that launches next year. Featuring the true RDNA architecture, higher efficiency, and dedicated RT cores.

I think this is a stopgap card to compete with RTX 2060 & 2070 series. Xbox Scarlet will use AMD tech for RTX so AMD clearly have a solution for ray tracing.

Pricing is not bad but considering for a few bucks more you could get the RTX cards with the cons they bring, hmm not so good.

Next RDNA design has hardware accelerated ray-tracing.

https://www.techspot.com/news/80237-tsmc-7nm-production-improves-performance-10.html

N7+ has identical yield rates to N7 and will steadily improve, while also offering a 20% increase to transistor density. There’s also a 10% performance uplift or 15% power efficiency increase

Xbox Scarlet has been hardware accelerated ray-tracing confirmed, hence placing Scarlet's GPU with the next RDNA refresh.

Sony has to confirm "hardware accelerated ray-tracing" since Sony already has shader based ray-tracing with PS4's Kill-Zone ShadowFall.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-the-making-of-killzone-shadow-fall

"So what we do is find a reflection for every pixel on screen, we find a reflection vector that goes into the screen and then basically start stepping every second pixel until we find something that's a hit. It's a 2.5D ray-trace... We can compute a rough approximation of where the vector would go and we can find pixels on-screen that represent that surface. This is all integrated into our lighting model."

"It's difficult to see where one system stops and another begins. We have pre-baked cube maps and we have real-time ray-traced reflections and then we have reflecting light sources and they all blend together in the same scene," adds Michiel van der Leeuw

VS

Crytek's solution is different from Microsoft DXR (being hardware accelerated by NVIDIA RTX) which is based on bounding volume hierarchy search tree ray-tracing model.

RDNA v1 like 5700 doesn't support hardware accelerated Microsoft DXR.

According to Crytek, RT hardware is faster than non-RT hardware. RTX includes search tree engine accelerator and intersect test (branch) hardware without using shader resource.

AMD improved shader branch hardware on 5700 XT which is equivalent to 80 CU shader branch equipped GCN and clocked up to +1900 Mhz.

Man your efforts to make Scarlet look better than the PS are endless now you want to hold to hardware ray tracing,this gen was Tile resources working better on xbox one.Which also was lol worthy.

Just because Scarlet has 1 feature of Navi next doesn't make it a true navi refresh have you forgot how the PS4 Pro has more Vega feature than the xbox one X yet is not true Vega either?

Is like you don't think before you spew your usual hype for the xbox.

• Sony has to confirm hardware accelerated ray-tracing since existing fat GpGPUs can ray-trace as shown from Crytek's recent demo.
• XBO's tile resource towards ESRAM wouldn't resolve inferior CU resource. Effectiveness for XBO's tile resource + tiled render/split render (concurrent DDR3 + ESRAM) only makes it closer to W5000's like results which has easy to program flat 2GB GDDR5 VRAM. You can't read. XBO's design mistakes will not be repeated since X1X debunks XBO design.
• PS4 Pro GPU doesn't have ROPS coupled with multi-MB cache like Vega ROPS design, hence Sony's Vega IP block selection is wrong. PS4 Pro's Rapid Pack Math feature has less effectiveness when compared to X1X's raster improvements.
• PS4 Pro doesn't have X1X's variable shader rate feature.

For 7 nm generation, both MS and Sony has NAVI baseline IP Blocks. MS has higher NVIDIA Pascal/Turing experience when compared to Sony.

MS's push for hardware accelerated ray-tracing is based on co-development with Turing RTX hardware and related DXR API. MS partnership with AMD is just attempt to push AMD towards poor-man's NVIDIA Turing RTX like GPU.

From AMD's own slides. Hardware ray-tracing is a stop gap for cloud ray-tracing. Putting ray-tracing hardware in a device which lasts 7 years would be the largest waste of money and resources when bi-directional real-time full scene path-tracing will be here in less than 5 years. It's like the discreet shaders vs unified shaders arguments all over again.

So this will be your slogan for the next 18 months right?

Look how you fastly credit MS with HB RT as if they were the first one to do it..Hahahaa

You say the same thing about the xbox one X and Vega..lol

• GameSeeker said

Matt said:They both have HW RT.

Thank you, Matt.

We can put to rest the useless argument of HW Raytracing vs. SW Raytracing. It was very obvious that Sony wasn't announcing SW Raytracing as a new PS5 feature, but some people can't understand the obvious.

If you are new to this thread, please don't attack or disbelieve Matt. He has a very long track record of being correct with his statements.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/next-gen-ps5-and-next-xbox-speculation-launch-thread-ot5-its-in-rdna.120059/page-133

Well you better hope Matt is wrong..lol

@michaelmikado: Do you have a picture? Don’t know which slide you are talking about.

Still a weak argument and PS5's hardware accelerated ray-tracing question are still on going within your posted thread. LOL

https://www.tweaktown.com/news/64900/metro-exodus-dev-talks-ray-tracing-next-gen-consoles/index.html

He continued: "In terms of the viability of ray tracing on next generation consoles, the hardware doesn't have to be specifically RTX cores. Those cores aren't the only thing that matters when it comes to ray tracing. They are fixed function hardware that speed up the calculations specifically relating to the BVH intersection tests. Those calculations can be done in standard compute if the computer cores are numerous and fast enough (which we believe they will be on the next gen consoles). In fact, any GPU that is running DX12 will be able to "run" DXR since DXR is just an extension of DX12".

Try again.

Lets get this straight i don't have to try again when you freaking fail in the first place to counter my argument.

Matt stated that is HB for both,i even linked and you refuse to admit it,he has inside info you don't have.

Basically what you are trying to do is deperately trying to portrait the Scarlet as having something the PS5 doesn't have and so far you have fail miserably,because you are assuming without proof that sony solution is software based.

From your restera thread.

MS has confirmed it, Sony hasn't. It's that simple. Sony very well could have it (and they probably do), or maybe it wasn't a goal of theirs to implement HW ray tracing for whatever reason.

Didn't you know Polaris RX 480 has ray-casting DSP instructions for True-Audio Next?

Nope especially when 90% of my pc gaming is PVP related. So i won’t be having that effect turned on what’s so ever.

PS5 has HW RT, as confirmed by Matt.

Lisa read words on a slide provided by Microsoft. MS wants to craft their image and so does Sony. They have different approaches. Sony had more advanced GPUs in both the PS4 and PS4 Pro, despite the latter debuting a year earlier than Scorpio.

From the own link you posted you are pretty much grasping at this point.

What I meant to say was post Navi 5700, their hardware based solution still not going to do ray-tracing for full screen effects. I know that even Nvidia doesn't offer completely ray-traced renderer for entire game but they don't restrict ray-tracing for particular effects, the devs are free to choose how they implement it. AMD's solution seems to like more to speed up collision detection, audio or select lighting effects.

That's not the same as claiming it doesn't support or can't do ray tracing is it? :/

Yeah, my bad. I shouldn't hurt consolites feelings because it isn't like consoles get cut down PC tech. I forgot that consoles get uber futuristic alien tech while PC gets low tier cut down scraps from Nvidia/AMD/Intel. These companies are formed to design hardware for consoles. /sarcasm

And lol at people who are DCing saying 5700 supports RT. News flash, a pentium from 90's also supports RT doesn't mean it can do it realtime in sufficient fashion.

Oh look, it's the hermits afraid of the next gen consoles LMFAO

That is full screen RT. The entire scene is rendered with RT without rasterization. No. of rays per pixel/de-noising is irrelevant to what AMD is saying. They are explicitly saying certain lighting effects for their hardware solution.

That's not ray-tracing. SSR is not ray-tracing and Crytek did it first with Crysis 2 in 2011.

It's even funnier when you find out what graphics card he has in his PC...........lmao......Lets just say it's not as powerful as Pro or X1X.