Playstation 3 - Solid Win

1. The EDGE has drastically reduced bad games since its initial use. We can see high quality games now with little time and little effort because the EDGE has rectified earlier problems. (no more FEARS)

2. FF XIII and FF Versus XIII are now confirmed as exclusive for PS3. With some devs going so far as to insult 360 hardware. Ouch guess we are gonna hear about how the games are for wusses huh? I already read a few threads highlighting FF games "downfall" lol.

3. Killzone 2....This series went from 6.9 to 8.5...I frimly believe this game will skyrocket to 9.5 (ish)                                 

Halo 3 has been going downhill ever since Halo 2 butchered the story. The novels? Even they have been gettin worse..

4. 7.1 and true 1080p with free online and wireless bluetooth...need I say more? Cuz I can.

Which is why it is in last place?

And by your logic, Killzone 2 will be a 10.1 not 9.5.

1. The EDGE has drastically reduced bad games since its initial use. We can see high quality games now with little time and little effort because the EDGE has rectified earlier problems. (no more FEARS)

2. FF XIII and FF Versus XIII are now confirmed as exclusive for PS3. With some devs going so far as to insult 360 hardware. Ouch guess we are gonna hear about how the games are for wusses huh? I already read a few threads highlighting FF games "downfall" lol.

3. Killzone 2....This series went from 6.9 to 8.5...I frimly believe this game will skyrocket to 9.5 (ish)

Halo 3 has been going downhill ever since Halo 2 butchered the story. The novels? Even they have been gettin worse..

4. 7.1 and true 1080p with free online and wireless bluetooth...need I say more? Cuz I can.

NextGenNow

Keep going, because you obviously haven't convinced yourself yet... 

[QUOTE="NextGenNow"]

1. The EDGE has drastically reduced bad games since its initial use. We can see high quality games now with little time and little effort because the EDGE has rectified earlier problems. (no more FEARS)

2. FF XIII and FF Versus XIII are now confirmed as exclusive for PS3. With some devs going so far as to insult 360 hardware. Ouch guess we are gonna hear about how the games are for wusses huh? I already read a few threads highlighting FF games "downfall" lol.

3. Killzone 2....This series went from 6.9 to 8.5...I frimly believe this game will skyrocket to 9.5 (ish)

Halo 3 has been going downhill ever since Halo 2 butchered the story. The novels? Even they have been gettin worse..

4. 7.1 and true 1080p with free online and wireless bluetooth...need I say more? Cuz I can.

D0013ER

Keep going, because you obviously haven't convinced yourself yet... 

Which is why it is in last place?

And by your logic, Killzone 2 will be a 10.1 not 9.5.

foxhound_fox

1. The EDGE has drastically reduced bad games since its initial use. We can see high quality games now with little time and little effort because the EDGE has rectified earlier problems. (no more FEARS)

2. FF XIII and FF Versus XIII are now confirmed as exclusive for PS3. With some devs going so far as to insult 360 hardware. Ouch guess we are gonna hear about how the games are for wusses huh? I already read a few threads highlighting FF games "downfall" lol.

3. Killzone 2....This series went from 6.9 to 8.5...I frimly believe this game will skyrocket to 9.5 (ish)                                 

Halo 3 has been going downhill ever since Halo 2 butchered the story. The novels? Even they have been gettin worse..

4. 7.1 and true 1080p with free online and wireless bluetooth...need I say more? Cuz I can.

NextGenNow

that magic (ish) is the reason im not putting that in my sig you got lucky this time

some developers have slated ps3 hardware....some have slated 360 hardware its not onesided

killzone....hmmm never played the first one so cant judge but 9.5 is a bit optimistic

Which is why it is in last place?

And by your logic, Killzone 2 will be a 10.1 not 9.5.

foxhound_fox

Common, saying its going to win because of 1080p. :roll:

Yeah, its an awesome feature, but how many potential buyers actually have 1080p TVs? Not enough to put a check in the PS3 win column. 

3. Killzone 2....This series went from 6.9 to 8.5...I frimly believe this game will skyrocket to 9.5 (ish)

NextGenNow

If Killzone is your third argument why Playstation 3 is a solid win, then something is certainly wrong. Even the fanboys are desporate. 

1. The EDGE has drastically reduced bad games since its initial use. We can see high quality games now with little time and little effort because the EDGE has rectified earlier problems. (no more FEARS)

2. FF XIII and FF Versus XIII are now confirmed as exclusive for PS3. With some devs going so far as to insult 360 hardware. Ouch guess we are gonna hear about how the games are for wusses huh? I already read a few threads highlighting FF games "downfall" lol.

3. Killzone 2....This series went from 6.9 to 8.5...I frimly believe this game will skyrocket to 9.5 (ish)

Halo 3 has been going downhill ever since Halo 2 butchered the story. The novels? Even they have been gettin worse..

4. 7.1 and true 1080p with free online and wireless bluetooth...need I say more? Cuz I can.

NextGenNow

Need you say more? Yes, yes I think you should. None of those are good enough reasons to give PS3 a "solid win". PS3 failed to live up to expectations across the board. Its just funny that Sony sheeple try to do everything to convince others (and themselves) that its worth the money, or has the games to compete with the other consoles. Nice try! :lol: 

Just reading this guys post and I can now finally understand why people hate SW so much. 1_Blood

[QUOTE="D0013ER"][QUOTE="NextGenNow"]

1. The EDGE has drastically reduced bad games since its initial use. We can see high quality games now with little time and little effort because the EDGE has rectified earlier problems. (no more FEARS)

2. FF XIII and FF Versus XIII are now confirmed as exclusive for PS3. With some devs going so far as to insult 360 hardware. Ouch guess we are gonna hear about how the games are for wusses huh? I already read a few threads highlighting FF games "downfall" lol.

3. Killzone 2....This series went from 6.9 to 8.5...I frimly believe this game will skyrocket to 9.5 (ish)

Halo 3 has been going downhill ever since Halo 2 butchered the story. The novels? Even they have been gettin worse..

4. 7.1 and true 1080p with free online and wireless bluetooth...need I say more? Cuz I can.

NextGenNow

Keep going, because you obviously haven't convinced yourself yet...

And being a serious debate please make some better points cause all I see is Fanboy talk as usual.

I don't see how what you just wrote equals out to Sony winning and I have been on record many times saying I think the PS3 will win just barely this gen btw.. 

i fail to see how the halo series has gone downhill since halo 2 as there hasnt been any other halo based games released since halo 2!

Plus since when has having edge improved a game, does it automatically on its own by some future self inproving software or are u just sprouting rubbish?

 there was a difference between killzone ps2 and killzone psp as they are completely different kinds of games

1.- Isn't EDGE basically in it's inception? we haven't seen a single game made using the EDGE toolkit. not to mention, Gundam was not bad because of poor devtools. It was bad because it sucked. I hope edge does help you get better ports in the future. FEAR was an insult.

2.-And some devs going so far as to insult the PS3.

3.- Went to 8.5 for a game in a different genre, in a portable system. Congratulations... I guess. It was a "killzone" just because Guerrilla used the IP.

4.- 7.1, I'll give you... though it's even less common than 1080p. And the 360 does ture 1080p... and I think it did it before the PS3 even launched :P 

1. The EDGE has drastically reduced bad games since its initial use. We can see high quality games now with little time and little effort because the EDGE has rectified earlier problems. (no more FEARS)

2. FF XIII and FF Versus XIII are now confirmed as exclusive for PS3. With some devs going so far as to insult 360 hardware. Ouch guess we are gonna hear about how the games are for wusses huh? I already read a few threads highlighting FF games "downfall" lol.

3. Killzone 2....This series went from 6.9 to 8.5...I frimly believe this game will skyrocket to 9.5 (ish)

Halo 3 has been going downhill ever since Halo 2 butchered the story. The novels? Even they have been gettin worse..

4. 7.1 and true 1080p with free online and wireless bluetooth...need I say more? Cuz I can.

NextGenNow

Correct on all 4 points, and the only reason PS3 isn't winning is becuase the 360 has been out for 3x as long, so what can you expect! And it came out in Europe about a month ago, and the PAL regions are important, we're big gamers over here, so it's no small wonder that the 360 has sold more! 

1. The EDGE has drastically reduced bad games since its initial use. We can see high quality games now with little time and little effort because the EDGE has rectified earlier problems. (no more FEARS)

2. FF XIII and FF Versus XIII are now confirmed as exclusive for PS3. With some devs going so far as to insult 360 hardware. Ouch guess we are gonna hear about how the games are for wusses huh? I already read a few threads highlighting FF games "downfall" lol.

3. Killzone 2....This series went from 6.9 to 8.5...I frimly believe this game will skyrocket to 9.5 (ish)

Halo 3 has been going downhill ever since Halo 2 butchered the story. The novels? Even they have been gettin worse..

4. 7.1 and true 1080p with free online and wireless bluetooth...need I say more? Cuz I can.

NextGenNow

Now, when someone says PS3 will win, then I think: "Ok, maybe in the long run." But when someone says "solid win", then I'm pretty sure they are talking nonsense. 

1. The EDGE has drastically reduced bad games since its initial use. We can see high quality games now with little time and little effort because the EDGE has rectified earlier problems. (no more FEARS)

2. FF XIII and FF Versus XIII are now confirmed as exclusive for PS3. With some devs going so far as to insult 360 hardware. Ouch guess we are gonna hear about how the games are for wusses huh? I already read a few threads highlighting FF games "downfall" lol.

3. Killzone 2....This series went from 6.9 to 8.5...I frimly believe this game will skyrocket to 9.5 (ish)

Halo 3 has been going downhill ever since Halo 2 butchered the story. The novels? Even they have been gettin worse..

4. 7.1 and true 1080p with free online and wireless bluetooth...need I say more? Cuz I can.

NextGenNow

Did I miss something in the news about the SE party recently? When have FF XIII and Versus XIII been confirmed as exclusives? All I've seen is that they've said both games are coming to the PS3, I've never seen any mention that they aren't going anywhere else.

Solid win!

Especially in Japan.

I'm gonna make a "Wii has the best graphics" thread and be totally surprised if it doesn't lead to a serious discussion about how it's superior in terms of graphics.

(hint: it's not)

1. The EDGE has drastically reduced bad games since its initial use. We can see high quality games now with little time and little effort because the EDGE has rectified earlier problems. (no more FEARS)

2. FF XIII and FF Versus XIII are now confirmed as exclusive for PS3. With some devs going so far as to insult 360 hardware. Ouch guess we are gonna hear about how the games are for wusses huh? I already read a few threads highlighting FF games "downfall" lol.

3. Killzone 2....This series went from 6.9 to 8.5...I frimly believe this game will skyrocket to 9.5 (ish)                                 

Halo 3 has been going downhill ever since Halo 2 butchered the story. The novels? Even they have been gettin worse..

4. 7.1 and true 1080p with free online and wireless bluetooth...need I say more? Cuz I can.

NextGenNow

1. Wait, F.E.A.R. just came out, and yet you're claiming that EDGE is already making a difference? In what, exactly? Screenshots?

2. Final Fantasy isn't the system seller it once was; FFXII didn't do nearly as well here as it should've, given the install base. The 360 has plenty of support from Mistwalker (in many ways the "real" Square these days), and even has Square's own "The Last Remnant". I'd say that's pretty decent J-RPG support. Also, I personally agree that the Final Fantasy series is on the way down (ever since VIII, probably), but to each his own.

3. Are you saying that since Killzone Liberation or whatever for the PSP did better, this means Killzone 2 will be good for the PS3? Please; the games aren't even particularly similar. I still have absolutely NO idea why cows hype Killzone 2 so much, when there are no gameplay videos, and no screenshots of it, and the first game was subpar.

4. Do you need to say more? Yes. I agree that 7.1 is better than 5.1, but honestly, that's not really a system seller, as 5.1 is perfectly fine, too. True 1080p? I'm assuming you're referring to Sony's catchphrase "True HD", but let's check facts: Both the 360 and 360 elite are capable of 1080p. Component will display up to 1080p in games, VGA will do it for both games and HD-DVDs, and obviously HDMI will do the deed. You want to talk about "true 1080p", how about not having any HD cables in the box? How about having few 1080p games (and if you look at the list of 1080p games, half of them are crap anyway)? Maybe you should stop buying into Sony PR b.s., and do your own research. Free online? You get what you pay for, buddy. Does everyone you play with have a bluetooth headset online? No? Is the online service unified for all games? No? Can you rent HD movies and buy HD TV shows? No? Is your MSN Messenger linked up to your account? No? Can you play games against the PC? No?!? Hmmm...Need I say more? Cuz I can...

[QUOTE="D0013ER"][QUOTE="NextGenNow"]

1. The EDGE has drastically reduced bad games since its initial use. We can see high quality games now with little time and little effort because the EDGE has rectified earlier problems. (no more FEARS)

2. FF XIII and FF Versus XIII are now confirmed as exclusive for PS3. With some devs going so far as to insult 360 hardware. Ouch guess we are gonna hear about how the games are for wusses huh? I already read a few threads highlighting FF games "downfall" lol.

3. Killzone 2....This series went from 6.9 to 8.5...I frimly believe this game will skyrocket to 9.5 (ish)

Halo 3 has been going downhill ever since Halo 2 butchered the story. The novels? Even they have been gettin worse..

4. 7.1 and true 1080p with free online and wireless bluetooth...need I say more? Cuz I can.

NextGenNow

Keep going, because you obviously haven't convinced yourself yet...

lol biggest fanboy I've come a cross, idiot

Too bad it costs $600 and has nothing but mediocre titles, or it might be keeping up with the wii.

[QUOTE="NextGenNow"]

1. The EDGE has drastically reduced bad games since its initial use. We can see high quality games now with little time and little effort because the EDGE has rectified earlier problems. (no more FEARS)

2. FF XIII and FF Versus XIII are now confirmed as exclusive for PS3. With some devs going so far as to insult 360 hardware. Ouch guess we are gonna hear about how the games are for wusses huh? I already read a few threads highlighting FF games "downfall" lol.

3. Killzone 2....This series went from 6.9 to 8.5...I frimly believe this game will skyrocket to 9.5 (ish)

Halo 3 has been going downhill ever since Halo 2 butchered the story. The novels? Even they have been gettin worse..

4. 7.1 and true 1080p with free online and wireless bluetooth...need I say more? Cuz I can.

SeanBond

1. Wait, F.E.A.R. just came out, and yet you're claiming that EDGE is already making a difference? In what, exactly? Screenshots?

2. Final Fantasy isn't the system seller it once was; FFXII didn't do nearly as well here as it should've, given the install base. The 360 has plenty of support from Mistwalker (in many ways the "real" Square these days), and even has Square's own "The Last Remnant". I'd say that's pretty decent J-RPG support. Also, I personally agree that the Final Fantasy series is on the way down (ever since VIII, probably), but to each his own.

3. Are you saying that since Killzone Liberation or whatever for the PSP did better, this means Killzone 2 will be good for the PS3? Please; the games aren't even particularly similar. I still have absolutely NO idea why cows hype Killzone 2 so much, when there are no gameplay videos, and no screenshots of it, and the first game was subpar.

4. Do you need to say more? Yes. I agree that 7.1 is better than 5.1, but honestly, that's not really a system seller, as 5.1 is perfectly fine, too. True 1080p? I'm assuming you're referring to Sony's catchphrase "True HD", but let's check facts: Both the 360 and 360 elite are capable of 1080p. Component will display up to 1080p in games, VGA will do it for both games and HD-DVDs, and obviously HDMI will do the deed. You want to talk about "true 1080p", how about not having any HD cables in the box? How about having few 1080p games (and if you look at the list of 1080p games, half of them are crap anyway)? Maybe you should stop buying into Sony PR b.s., and do your own research. Free online? You get what you pay for, buddy. Does everyone you play with have a bluetooth headset online? No? Is the online service unified for all games? No? Can you rent HD movies and buy HD TV shows? No? Is your MSN Messenger linked up to your account? No? Can you play games against the PC? No?!? Hmmm...Need I say more? Cuz I can...

ouch what a come back, but he's gonna say bu bu bu we have home its the best because ''sony say so'' just wait lol  

[QUOTE="NextGenNow"]

1. The EDGE has drastically reduced bad games since its initial use. We can see high quality games now with little time and little effort because the EDGE has rectified earlier problems. (no more FEARS)

2. FF XIII and FF Versus XIII are now confirmed as exclusive for PS3. With some devs going so far as to insult 360 hardware. Ouch guess we are gonna hear about how the games are for wusses huh? I already read a few threads highlighting FF games "downfall" lol.

3. Killzone 2....This series went from 6.9 to 8.5...I frimly believe this game will skyrocket to 9.5 (ish)

Halo 3 has been going downhill ever since Halo 2 butchered the story. The novels? Even they have been gettin worse..

4. 7.1 and true 1080p with free online and wireless bluetooth...need I say more? Cuz I can.

SeanBond

1. Wait, F.E.A.R. just came out, and yet you're claiming that EDGE is already making a difference? In what, exactly? Screenshots?

2. Final Fantasy isn't the system seller it once was; FFXII didn't do nearly as well here as it should've, given the install base. The 360 has plenty of support from Mistwalker (in many ways the "real" Square these days), and even has Square's own "The Last Remnant". I'd say that's pretty decent J-RPG support. Also, I personally agree that the Final Fantasy series is on the way down (ever since VIII, probably), but to each his own.

3. Are you saying that since Killzone Liberation or whatever for the PSP did better, this means Killzone 2 will be good for the PS3? Please; the games aren't even particularly similar. I still have absolutely NO idea why cows hype Killzone 2 so much, when there are no gameplay videos, and no screenshots of it, and the first game was subpar.

4. Do you need to say more? Yes. I agree that 7.1 is better than 5.1, but honestly, that's not really a system seller, as 5.1 is perfectly fine, too. True 1080p? I'm assuming you're referring to Sony's catchphrase "True HD", but let's check facts: Both the 360 and 360 elite are capable of 1080p. Component will display up to 1080p in games, VGA will do it for both games and HD-DVDs, and obviously HDMI will do the deed. You want to talk about "true 1080p", how about not having any HD cables in the box? How about having few 1080p games (and if you look at the list of 1080p games, half of them are crap anyway)? Maybe you should stop buying into Sony PR b.s., and do your own research. Free online? You get what you pay for, buddy. Does everyone you play with have a bluetooth headset online? No? Is the online service unified for all games? No? Can you rent HD movies and buy HD TV shows? No? Is your MSN Messenger linked up to your account? No? Can you play games against the PC? No?!? Hmmm...Need I say more? Cuz I can...

Ouch.  That's, dare I say it, massive damage.

[QUOTE="NextGenNow"]

1. The EDGE has drastically reduced bad games since its initial use. We can see high quality games now with little time and little effort because the EDGE has rectified earlier problems. (no more FEARS)

2. FF XIII and FF Versus XIII are now confirmed as exclusive for PS3. With some devs going so far as to insult 360 hardware. Ouch guess we are gonna hear about how the games are for wusses huh? I already read a few threads highlighting FF games "downfall" lol.

3. Killzone 2....This series went from 6.9 to 8.5...I frimly believe this game will skyrocket to 9.5 (ish)

Halo 3 has been going downhill ever since Halo 2 butchered the story. The novels? Even they have been gettin worse..

4. 7.1 and true 1080p with free online and wireless bluetooth...need I say more? Cuz I can.

SeanBond

1. Wait, F.E.A.R. just came out, and yet you're claiming that EDGE is already making a difference? In what, exactly? Screenshots?

2. Final Fantasy isn't the system seller it once was; FFXII didn't do nearly as well here as it should've, given the install base. The 360 has plenty of support from Mistwalker (in many ways the "real" Square these days), and even has Square's own "The Last Remnant". I'd say that's pretty decent J-RPG support. Also, I personally agree that the Final Fantasy series is on the way down (ever since VIII, probably), but to each his own.

3. Are you saying that since Killzone Liberation or whatever for the PSP did better, this means Killzone 2 will be good for the PS3? Please; the games aren't even particularly similar. I still have absolutely NO idea why cows hype Killzone 2 so much, when there are no gameplay videos, and no screenshots of it, and the first game was subpar.

4. Do you need to say more? Yes. I agree that 7.1 is better than 5.1, but honestly, that's not really a system seller, as 5.1 is perfectly fine, too. True 1080p? I'm assuming you're referring to Sony's catchphrase "True HD", but let's check facts: Both the 360 and 360 elite are capable of 1080p. Component will display up to 1080p in games, VGA will do it for both games and HD-DVDs, and obviously HDMI will do the deed. You want to talk about "true 1080p", how about not having any HD cables in the box? How about having few 1080p games (and if you look at the list of 1080p games, half of them are crap anyway)? Maybe you should stop buying into Sony PR b.s., and do your own research. Free online? You get what you pay for, buddy. Does everyone you play with have a bluetooth headset online? No? Is the online service unified for all games? No? Can you rent HD movies and buy HD TV shows? No? Is your MSN Messenger linked up to your account? No? Can you play games against the PC? No?!? Hmmm...Need I say more? Cuz I can...

nice. owange APPROVED. I'm going to reference your post when i need to do some cow ownage myself. 

[QUOTE="1_Blood"]Just reading this guys post and I can now finally understand why people hate SW so much. foxhound_fox

Your sig = Spiderman 4 :D 

1. The EDGE has drastically reduced bad games since its initial use. We can see high quality games now with little time and little effort because the EDGE has rectified earlier problems. (no more FEARS)

NextGenNow

I wanna believe, please post a link.

[QUOTE="NextGenNow"]

1. The EDGE has drastically reduced bad games since its initial use. We can see high quality games now with little time and little effort because the EDGE has rectified earlier problems. (no more FEARS)

2. FF XIII and FF Versus XIII are now confirmed as exclusive for PS3. With some devs going so far as to insult 360 hardware. Ouch guess we are gonna hear about how the games are for wusses huh? I already read a few threads highlighting FF games "downfall" lol.

3. Killzone 2....This series went from 6.9 to 8.5...I frimly believe this game will skyrocket to 9.5 (ish)                                 

Halo 3 has been going downhill ever since Halo 2 butchered the story. The novels? Even they have been gettin worse..

4. 7.1 and true 1080p with free online and wireless bluetooth...need I say more? Cuz I can.

SeanBond

1. Wait, F.E.A.R. just came out, and yet you're claiming that EDGE is already making a difference? In what, exactly? Screenshots?

2. Final Fantasy isn't the system seller it once was; FFXII didn't do nearly as well here as it should've, given the install base. The 360 has plenty of support from Mistwalker (in many ways the "real" Square these days), and even has Square's own "The Last Remnant". I'd say that's pretty decent J-RPG support. Also, I personally agree that the Final Fantasy series is on the way down (ever since VIII, probably), but to each his own.

3. Are you saying that since Killzone Liberation or whatever for the PSP did better, this means Killzone 2 will be good for the PS3? Please; the games aren't even particularly similar. I still have absolutely NO idea why cows hype Killzone 2 so much, when there are no gameplay videos, and no screenshots of it, and the first game was subpar.

4. Do you need to say more? Yes. I agree that 7.1 is better than 5.1, but honestly, that's not really a system seller, as 5.1 is perfectly fine, too. True 1080p? I'm assuming you're referring to Sony's catchphrase "True HD", but let's check facts: Both the 360 and 360 elite are capable of 1080p. Component will display up to 1080p in games, VGA will do it for both games and HD-DVDs, and obviously HDMI will do the deed. You want to talk about "true 1080p", how about not having any HD cables in the box? How about having few 1080p games (and if you look at the list of 1080p games, half of them are crap anyway)? Maybe you should stop buying into Sony PR b.s., and do your own research. Free online? You get what you pay for, buddy. Does everyone you play with have a bluetooth headset online? No? Is the online service unified for all games? No? Can you rent HD movies and buy HD TV shows? No? Is your MSN Messenger linked up to your account? No? Can you play games against the PC? No?!? Hmmm...Need I say more? Cuz I can...

Wow.... such ownage I have never seen on these forums.

Bravo...Bravo 

People chill the f#$ck out. These next-gen console bashing has blurred your thinking. Get a girlfriend,it helped me too lol

[QUOTE="D0013ER"][QUOTE="NextGenNow"]

1. The EDGE has drastically reduced bad games since its initial use. We can see high quality games now with little time and little effort because the EDGE has rectified earlier problems. (no more FEARS)

2. FF XIII and FF Versus XIII are now confirmed as exclusive for PS3. With some devs going so far as to insult 360 hardware. Ouch guess we are gonna hear about how the games are for wusses huh? I already read a few threads highlighting FF games "downfall" lol.

3. Killzone 2....This series went from 6.9 to 8.5...I frimly believe this game will skyrocket to 9.5 (ish)

Halo 3 has been going downhill ever since Halo 2 butchered the story. The novels? Even they have been gettin worse..

4. 7.1 and true 1080p with free online and wireless bluetooth...need I say more? Cuz I can.

NextGenNow

Keep going, because you obviously haven't convinced yourself yet...

Serious debate!?  Sure, if you're a 5th grader.