PS3 - not a massive leap from PCs with high-end graphics card

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devinkaylin

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#1 devinkaylin
Member since 2003 • 943 Posts

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/games/archives/2006/01/27/possession_and_the_art_of_ps3_programming.html

I spent much of last December writing a preview of PS3 zombie shocker, Possession, for the Official PlayStation 2 magazine. The game is a mouth-watering mix of survival horror adventure and squad-based shooter, with you commanding a ravenous undead army against a city stuffed with civilians, cops and soldiers.

The magazine is now out on the shelves, so I can finally talk about meeting up with Possession developer, Volatile, and chatting about what it's like to write games for Sony's next-gen hardware. At the time, the team were working with an emulator rather than a full PS3 dev kit, but already seemed comfortable with the peculiarities of the multi-processor behemoth.

Of course every developer is going to have a different take on PS3, but this is what one of them had to say...

First of all, as with Killzone developer Guerrilla in a recent online Q&A sesh, they were happy to point out that PS3 is not as complicated to write for as we've all been led to believe. Apparently, the machine's use of Open GL as its graphics API means that anyone who's ever written games for the PC will be intimately familiar with the set-up. In fact, PS3 employs a cut-down version named Open GL ES, which is even simpler - as Volatile's lead PS3 programmer, Lyndon Homewood explained:

"ES is designed for things like set-top boxes and mobile phones, where you want the fundamental graphics but don't need some of the fringe stuff that Open GL has. Because you've got that on PS3, it's going to be much easier than the PS2 to get something up and running - there are hundreds of books out there for it, so you can do your background reading. All the documentation is there."

We also got onto talking about how PS3 will deal with Cg - a version of the programming language C, which allows developers to code for advanced graphics processing units, specifically in the area of 3D shaders. (You can read more about Cg here and here). You may be completely up to spec on how this works, but Lyndon gives a decent beginners guide if not:

"Cg gives you a standard documented API for programming graphics chips. The main two segregations of Cg programming are the vertex shader and pixel shader. With the vertex shader you can act on 3D models at the vertex level, so for each triangle you can do something on each corner and then everything in-between is interpolated. So if you want to make your whole shape bigger, you can just push all the vertices out a bit. In this way you could, say, morph your character into a giant just by scaling up all the verts. It's a lot easier to get to that point in the graphics pipeline.

"And then you've got the pixel shaders. When you render each triangle on screen the GPU asks whether you want to do something to each individual pixel you render... so at this point you could run some sort of mathematical algorithm on each individual pixel - perhaps a lighting effect like high dynamic range lighting (a rough Wikipedia entry on HDR lighting can be found here). And that wasn't possible on PS2.

"All of this is already available and won't be a massive leap from what you're seeing on PCs with high-end graphics cards. But obviously on PS3, you've got eight chips to spread the processing cost over - the main PowerPC chip and seven SPE chips. In a PC, there's just one CPU, two in a dual processor machine. Having an eight CPU multi-processor system in your living room is pretty flash.

"At the end of the day it's just a multi-processor architecture. If you can get something running on eight threads of a PC CPU, you can get it running on eight processors on a PS3 - it's not massively different. There is a small 'gotcha' in there though. The main processor can access all the machine's video memory, but each of the seven SPE chips has access only to its own 256k of onboard memory - so if you have, say, a big mesh to process, it'll be necessary to stream it through a small amount of memory - you'd have to DMA it up to your cell chip and then process a little chunk, then DMA the next chunk, so you won't be able to jump around the memory as easily, which I guess you will be able to do on the Xbox 360.

"The graphics capabilities of PS3 will, I think, be slightly above the absolutely top-end graphics cards on the PC, but you've got much more processing power in the box so you're going to see a lot more physics, a lot more generated geometry. With water ripples, for example - they're pretty much algorithms, you have a flat plane of triangles and you run some sort of mathematical algorithm over it to generate a surface rippling effect - well, you will have the processing power to do these sorts of generated geometry effects On PS3. You could actually put one chip aside just to do that..."

According to Homewood, the management of the SPE chips is going to be a major consideration. One way is to assign specific roles to each of the chips - get one handling physics, one working on AI, etc. This might sound tidy, but Volatile are not convinced - partly because certain gameplay events, like a massive shoot-out, are going to create spikes in demand for, say, animation, collision detection and rag doll physics. One SPU working alone on each of these elements won't be able to deal with such spikes efficiently. Also, there's the question of co-ordination:

"The way we're thinking of doing it ourselves is via a job queue. We'll stick the jobs we want to do into a queue on the main processor and then we'll get the SPEs to pull off a queue entry and process it whenever they're free. You want to make sure all of your processors are always running. If you give the chips specific jobs, you'll end up with a lot of them being idle - you won't get the maximum out of PS3 doing that unless you time everything perfectly, so that the time it takes to do the animation on the first chip is exactly the same amount of time to do the physics on the next chip, which is exactly the same length of time it takes to do all your AI on the next chip - I think that would be extremely problematic."

One last thing. Volatile reckon PS3 is going to be much better for HD cinematics than Xbox 360, thanks to its Blu-Ray storage medium. 20 minutes of HD-TV footage takes up around 4.7GB, so an Xbox 360 game would quickly run out of space. This is going to matter more in the coming years as movies and games merge and we see more film elements being brought across to games.

So there you go. PS3 is relatively easy to program for if you have experience with high-end PCs - certainly more straightforward than PS2 with its proprietary graphics APIs. We've also heard lots of talk - from various studios - that Sony's developer support will be a lot stronger with PS3 (it's already much, much better with PSP apparently). Time will tell.

For now, we have screenshots, demos and promises, we have enthusiastic developers taking their first glance at the next generation of Sony hardware. We don't have games.

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Bad--Robot

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#2 Bad--Robot
Member since 2005 • 6702 Posts
within 3 months of the PS3 release it wil be outdated by a PC card
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#3 CRPoint
Member since 2003 • 519 Posts
[This message was deleted at the request of a moderator or administrator]
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Blue-Sky

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#4 Blue-Sky
Member since 2005 • 10381 Posts
wow, who would of thought that an expensive PC card would out power consoles....:o
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-DNICE-

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#5 -DNICE-
Member since 2003 • 1413 Posts
wow, who would of thought that an expensive PC card would out power consoles....:oBlue-Sky
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Iron-Dragon

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#6 Iron-Dragon
Member since 2004 • 12461 Posts
It will be outdated very quickly.  Consoles will always be that way.
 
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Gallion-Beast

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#7 Gallion-Beast
Member since 2005 • 35803 Posts
within 3 months of the PS3 release it wil be outdated by a PC cardBad--Robot
360 already has
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xen_ninja

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#8 xen_ninja
Member since 2003 • 2397 Posts
X360 can't even pwn a mid-range pc
 
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#9 CRPoint
Member since 2003 • 519 Posts
X360 can't even pwn a mid-range pc
 xen_ninja

omg dont even start with the foolish fanboy statements
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TML_Matus

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#10 TML_Matus
Member since 2004 • 5365 Posts
[QUOTE="Gallion-Beast"]
within 3 months of the PS3 release it wil be outdated by a PC cardBad--Robot
360 already has



quoted for truth ... so stop being hypocretes.
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Gunlee125

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#11 Gunlee125
Member since 2005 • 2814 Posts
[QUOTE="Gallion-Beast"]
within 3 months of the PS3 release it wil be outdated by a PC cardBad--Robot
360 already has


yep, said by carmack
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TML_Matus

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#12 TML_Matus
Member since 2004 • 5365 Posts
[QUOTE="Gunlee125"] [QUOTE="Gallion-Beast"]
within 3 months of the PS3 release it wil be outdated by a PC cardBad--Robot
360 already has


yep, said by carmack



damn it lemmigns always disappear when they get owned.
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jechtshot78

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#13 jechtshot78
Member since 2004 • 29851 Posts
OMG...like this is news...
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wudi09

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#14 wudi09
Member since 2005 • 5532 Posts
LMAO have you even read that? He based his speculation on POSSESION, the crappiest looking game on next-gen consoles, and the only footage that was coming from it was running on PC or X360, there still wasn't footage for PS3 from this game.

Why do you idiotic lemmings use speculation all the time?

CryTek is writing a special version of Crytek 2 engine especially for PS3, because they can't squeeze all the power of this console using PC\X360 tools. How about that? How about IBM's benchmarks about Cell, huh? What about that?
How about comparing XDR memory to DDR3 RAM, what about that? What about facts you idiots?
And how about you show me single game announced for PC that can compare to MotorStorm, Heavenly Sword, WarHawk, Lair, MoHA - how about that?
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CYBORG5

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#15 CYBORG5
Member since 2005 • 2530 Posts

within 3 months of the PS3 release it wil be outdated by a PC cardBad--Robot

It's already been outdated by a PC card.

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CRPoint

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#16 CRPoint
Member since 2003 • 519 Posts
[This message was deleted at the request of a moderator or administrator]
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TML_Matus

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#17 TML_Matus
Member since 2004 • 5365 Posts
[QUOTE="CRPoint"]only hardcore, no life, gaming nerds play PC games on their 2k-5k PC's... Pathetic



dig a hole ... fall in it ... bury you're self ... and sufficate.
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jechtshot78

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#18 jechtshot78
Member since 2004 • 29851 Posts
[QUOTE="CRPoint"]only hardcore, no life, gaming nerds play PC games on their 2k-5k PC's... Pathetic



Im a hardcore, no life, gaming nerd, and I dont have a 2-5k PC.
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#19 CRPoint
Member since 2003 • 519 Posts
[This message was deleted at the request of a moderator or administrator]
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ken_gamer

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#20 ken_gamer
Member since 2003 • 7522 Posts
The only thing the PC will have an advantage(a quick advantage) over the PS3 in terms of gaming are the graphics. Its processor though is currently unmatcheable and has been stated to stay that way for a good number of years, apparently.
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CRPoint

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#21 CRPoint
Member since 2003 • 519 Posts
[QUOTE="jechtshot78"] [QUOTE="CRPoint"]only hardcore, no life, gaming nerds play PC games on their 2k-5k PC's... Pathetic



Im a hardcore, no life, gaming nerd, and I dont have a 2-5k PC.


even more pathetic when you admit to it
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TML_Matus

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#22 TML_Matus
Member since 2004 • 5365 Posts
[QUOTE="CRPoint"] [QUOTE="TML_Matus"] [QUOTE="CRPoint"]only hardcore, no life, gaming nerds play PC games on their 2k-5k PC's... Pathetic



dig a hole ... fall in it ... bury you're self ... and sufficate.


thats what i say to those nerds



and thats wat i say to u.
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jechtshot78

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#23 jechtshot78
Member since 2004 • 29851 Posts
[QUOTE="CRPoint"] [QUOTE="jechtshot78"] [QUOTE="CRPoint"]only hardcore, no life, gaming nerds play PC games on their 2k-5k PC's... Pathetic



Im a hardcore, no life, gaming nerd, and I dont have a 2-5k PC.


even more pathetic when you admit to it



When you clicked on the system wars forums you automaticly designated yourself a nerd.
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Arch-Renegade04

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#24 Arch-Renegade04
Member since 2005 • 7427 Posts
there is no pc card out today that owns or even comes close to the 360 and PS3 GPU(well maybe the PS3). so dont get crazy fanboys.
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CRPoint

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#25 CRPoint
Member since 2003 • 519 Posts
[This message was deleted at the request of a moderator or administrator]
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jechtshot78

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#26 jechtshot78
Member since 2004 • 29851 Posts
[QUOTE="CRPoint"] [QUOTE="jechtshot78"] [QUOTE="CRPoint"] [QUOTE="jechtshot78"] [QUOTE="CRPoint"]only hardcore, no life, gaming nerds play PC games on their 2k-5k PC's... Pathetic



Im a hardcore, no life, gaming nerd, and I dont have a 2-5k PC.


even more pathetic when you admit to it



When you clicked on the system wars forums you automaticly designated yourself a nerd.


i just like to piss nerds off on here because you people take video games too seriously as if thats all there is in the world



Completely Untrue.
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nintendo-4life

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#27 nintendo-4life
Member since 2004 • 18281 Posts
wow, who would of thought that an expensive PC card would out power consoles....:oBlue-Sky
PS3 is gonna expensive too ya know
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TML_Matus

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#28 TML_Matus
Member since 2004 • 5365 Posts
[QUOTE="Blue-Sky"]wow, who would of thought that an expensive PC card would out power consoles....:onintendo-4life
PS3 is gonna expensive too ya know



most cows arent 14 year old poor kids. We have jobs.
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berlioz7

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#29 berlioz7
Member since 2005 • 189 Posts

only hardcore, no life, gaming nerds play PC games on their 2k-5k PC's... Pathetic CRPoint

Actually, most PC gamers that I know are pretty cool people. Most are people who once were console gamers -like myself- who finally got bored with the same old fighting, racing, and run of the line adventure games. I still own a PS2 and Gamecube, but rarely play them. I will probably buy a PS3 at some point too. Maybee I don't fit the descripiton quated above, but give PC gamers credit for choosing to play a more wide range of games.

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berlioz7

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#30 berlioz7
Member since 2005 • 189 Posts

only hardcore, no life, gaming nerds play PC games on their 2k-5k PC's... Pathetic CRPoint

Actually, most PC gamers that I know are pretty cool people. Most are people who once were console gamers -like myself- who finally got bored with the same old fighting, racing, and run of the line adventure games. I still own a PS2 and Gamecube, but rarely play them. I will probably buy a PS3 at some point too. Maybee I don't fit the descripiton quated above, but give PC gamers credit for choosing to play a more wide range of games.

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xen_ninja

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#31 xen_ninja
Member since 2003 • 2397 Posts
there is no pc card out today that owns or even comes close to the 360 and PS3 GPU(well maybe the PS3). so dont get crazy fanboys.Arch-Renegade04

Hey mang....I just realized something X360 can't even run REAL-TIME PRE-RENDERED CG properly since it does not have a high-def optical drive...... teh pwnage!!!
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jechtshot78

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#32 jechtshot78
Member since 2004 • 29851 Posts

[QUOTE="CRPoint"]only hardcore, no life, gaming nerds play PC games on their 2k-5k PC's... Pathetic berlioz7

Actually, most PC gamers that I know are pretty cool people. Most are people who once were console gamers -like myself- who finally got bored with the same old fighting, racing, and run of the line adventure games. I still own a PS2 and Gamecube, but rarely play them. I will probably buy a PS3 at some point too. Maybee I don't fit the descripiton quated above, but give PC gamers credit for choosing to play a more wide range of games.



Last Time I checked Consoles had a more wide range of game genres...
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xen_ninja

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#33 xen_ninja
Member since 2003 • 2397 Posts
[QUOTE="TML_Matus"]
[QUOTE="Blue-Sky"]wow, who would of thought that an expensive PC card would out power consoles....:onintendo-4life
PS3 is gonna expensive too ya know



most cows arent 14 year old poor kids. We have jobs.


And College
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Arch-Renegade04

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#34 Arch-Renegade04
Member since 2005 • 7427 Posts

[QUOTE="Arch-Renegade04"]there is no pc card out today that owns or even comes close to the 360 and PS3 GPU(well maybe the PS3). so dont get crazy fanboys.xen_ninja

Hey mang....I just realized something X360 can't even run REAL-TIME PRE-RENDERED CG  properly since it does not have a high-def optical drive...... teh pwnage!!!

you do know your self-owned every time you speak right? and instead of talking about nonsense why dont you post something that would contribute to the thread. not your own made up BS.

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xen_ninja

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#35 xen_ninja
Member since 2003 • 2397 Posts

[QUOTE="xen_ninja"] [QUOTE="Arch-Renegade04"]there is no pc card out today that owns or even comes close to the 360 and PS3 GPU(well maybe the PS3). so dont get crazy fanboys.Arch-Renegade04


Hey mang....I just realized something X360 can't even run REAL-TIME PRE-RENDERED CG properly since it does not have a high-def optical drive...... teh pwnage!!!

you do know your self-owned every time you speak right?



Look at my sig Oh smart one...and then speak of self-ownage..............wow truly pathetic
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Arch-Renegade04

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#36 Arch-Renegade04
Member since 2005 • 7427 Posts
[QUOTE="Arch-Renegade04"]

[QUOTE="xen_ninja"] [QUOTE="Arch-Renegade04"]there is no pc card out today that owns or even comes close to the 360 and PS3 GPU(well maybe the PS3). so dont get crazy fanboys.xen_ninja


Hey mang....I just realized something X360 can't even run REAL-TIME PRE-RENDERED CG properly since it does not have a high-def optical drive...... teh pwnage!!!

you do know your self-owned every time you speak right?



Look at my sig Oh smart one...and then speak of self-ownage..............wow truly pathetic

hmmmm guess only noobs like to put typos in their sigs. thats self-ownage right there. of the largest kind. now contribute to the thread or get out kiddo.

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jechtshot78

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#37 jechtshot78
Member since 2004 • 29851 Posts
Stop fighting?

:|
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Grandstreamer

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#38 Grandstreamer
Member since 2004 • 4562 Posts
This is actually amazing. So the PS3 will be slightly better for a time than the freakin' absolute pinnacle of High End PCs. That's awesome. NVidia said that quad sli 7800s would give a hint at the RSX performance and if that's true ...than wow...
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Arch-Renegade04

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#41 Arch-Renegade04
Member since 2005 • 7427 Posts

Stop fighting?

:|
jechtshot78

nobody is fighting just an immature little fanboy who thinks that typos are ownage, is talking to himself.

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Grandstreamer

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#42 Grandstreamer
Member since 2004 • 4562 Posts

[QUOTE="Arch-Renegade04"]there is no pc card out today that owns or even comes close to the 360 and PS3 GPU(well maybe the PS3). so dont get crazy fanboys.xen_ninja

Hey mang....I just realized something X360 can't even run REAL-TIME PRE-RENDERED CG properly since it does not have a high-def optical drive...... teh pwnage!!!

Arch let it go. RSX owns Xenos. ATi flopped.

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ken_gamer

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#43 ken_gamer
Member since 2003 • 7522 Posts
Something caught my eye.

First of all, as with Killzone developer Guerrilla in a recent online Q&A sesh, they were happy to point out that PS3 is not as complicated to write for as we've all been led to believe. Apparently, the machine's use of Open GL as its graphics API means that anyone who's ever written games for the PC will be intimately familiar with the set-up. In fact, PS3 employs a cut-down version named Open GL ES, which is even simpler - as Volatile's lead PS3 programmer, Lyndon Homewood explained:

"ES is designed for things like set-top boxes and mobile phones, where you want the fundamental graphics but don't need some of the fringe stuff that Open GL has. Because you've got that on PS3, it's going to be much easier than the PS2 to get something up and running - there are hundreds of books out there for it, so you can do your background reading. All the documentation is there."

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jechtshot78

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#44 jechtshot78
Member since 2004 • 29851 Posts

[QUOTE="jechtshot78"]Stop fighting?

:|
Arch-Renegade04

nobody is fighting just an immature little fanboy who thinks that typos are ownage, is talking to himself.




*Searches for a "Dont feed the Trolls" Picture*

:P
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Arch-Renegade04

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#45 Arch-Renegade04
Member since 2005 • 7427 Posts

This is actually amazing. So the PS3 will be slightly better for a time than the freakin' absolute pinnacle of High End PCs. That's awesome. NVidia said that quad sli 7800s would give a hint at the RSX performance and if that's true ...than wow...Grandstreamer

lol i HIGHLY doubt thhe RSX can outdo quad sli 7800s. your dreaming.

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xen_ninja

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#46 xen_ninja
Member since 2003 • 2397 Posts
[QUOTE="xen_ninja"] [QUOTE="Arch-Renegade04"]

[QUOTE="xen_ninja"] [QUOTE="Arch-Renegade04"]there is no pc card out today that owns or even comes close to the 360 and PS3 GPU(well maybe the PS3). so dont get crazy fanboys.Arch-Renegade04


Hey mang....I just realized something X360 can't even run REAL-TIME PRE-RENDERED CG properly since it does not have a high-def optical drive...... teh pwnage!!!

you do know your self-owned every time you speak right?



Look at my sig Oh smart one...and then speak of self-ownage..............wow truly pathetic

hmmmm guess only noobs like to put typos in their sigs. thats self-ownage right there. of the largest kind. now contribute to the thread or get out kiddo.

  I'm sensing that you have no clue about what you're talking about and it is no typo.........

http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=24199307&msg_id=264655247&page=0

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Arch-Renegade04

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#47 Arch-Renegade04
Member since 2005 • 7427 Posts

[QUOTE="xen_ninja"] [QUOTE="Arch-Renegade04"]there is no pc card out today that owns or even comes close to the 360 and PS3 GPU(well maybe the PS3). so dont get crazy fanboys.Grandstreamer


Hey mang....I just realized something X360 can't even run REAL-TIME PRE-RENDERED CG properly since it does not have a high-def optical drive...... teh pwnage!!!

Arch let it go. RSX owns Xenos. ATi flopped.

grandsteamer let it go xenos owns RSX. Nvidia flopped. see i can do the same thing.

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xen_ninja

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#48 xen_ninja
Member since 2003 • 2397 Posts

[QUOTE="Grandstreamer"]This is actually amazing. So the PS3 will be slightly better for a time than the freakin' absolute pinnacle of High End PCs. That's awesome. NVidia said that quad sli 7800s would give a hint at the RSX performance and if that's true ...than wow...Arch-Renegade04

lol i HIGHLY doubt thhe RSX can outdo quad sli 7800s. your dreaming.

okay but a single 7800 can output gfx like "project offset" ....and then you see the xenos....rofl

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Arch-Renegade04

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#49 Arch-Renegade04
Member since 2005 • 7427 Posts
[QUOTE="Arch-Renegade04"]

[QUOTE="jechtshot78"]Stop fighting?

:|
jechtshot78

nobody is fighting just an immature little fanboy who thinks that typos are ownage, is talking to himself.




*Searches for a "Dont feed the Trolls" Picture*

:P

whos the troll?

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Arch-Renegade04

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#50 Arch-Renegade04
Member since 2005 • 7427 Posts
[QUOTE="Arch-Renegade04"]

[QUOTE="Grandstreamer"]This is actually amazing. So the PS3 will be slightly better for a time than the freakin' absolute pinnacle of High End PCs. That's awesome. NVidia said that quad sli 7800s would give a hint at the RSX performance and if that's true ...than wow...xen_ninja

lol i HIGHLY doubt thhe RSX can outdo quad sli 7800s. your dreaming.

okay but a single 7800 can output gfx like "project offset" ....and then you see the xenos....rofl

right. :roll: