SONY HAS LOST more this GEN so FAR then MS in 7 years. THERE MAY NOT BE a Ps4.

Disclaimer; if there are errors in figures, they are my fault, post a link and I'm happy to edit. Any opinion on my behalf is reasonable, and not daydreaming. Long read, but it is mainly fact, not fanboy rant.

Edit:Sony has a book value of $27 billion. It has nearly $9 billion in cash. Sony's not going anywhere. Or is it?

Anaylysts prior to the Ps3  launch( the esteemed Meryll Lynch no less, predicted a loss of 1 billion. The truth is  Sony has smashed these predictions, and predicted up to 2.5 billion by march. You figure.

Devoting nearly half of its cash reserves to losses in the video game and computing sectors, with no guarantee of future profits for another two years, could send the company's stock into a tailspin, once its investors realize the full measure of the grave situation for the company. Thats alright? It would have been a long time ago, but now that Sony has largely foreign owned, it means that the new investors won't have the patience of their Japanese counterparts. Seeing your cash reserves hitting the dust is not pleasant. By now, Sony's cash reserves are considerably less. And falling with every Ps3 sold. 9 billion -2.5 billion from one division, and much more to come? Investors aren't going to deal with that much longer.

The cruel Irony is, that the more hardware the ps3 sells, the smaller sonys profits become, the angrier Sony investors become, the less chance of playing FF XVII or whatever on a Playstation 4.

Quick rundown:

Ps2's profits @ 115 million units sold, around 2.5 billion

Ps1's profits, @ 100 million, not sure probably 2 billion

Ps3's losses so far, 1.7-2.5 billion USD + @ 3 million odd units sold, with around 200 dollars loss a console(isuppli), depreciation in hardware is probably countered by the wholesale price of 550 or less (Shops need to make profit)

The Sony playstation 2 has sold 115 million units, and has pushed at least 1047 million software titles so far. At least 1.1 billion hardware sales have been achieved so far. The Ps2 earned Sony 2.4 billion USD in profit, or about twice their yearly profit. I'm quite sure that the Ps2's design, and marketing was at least broken even by incredible sales. This leaves us with 2 dollars give or take profit a game, with an attach ration of around 10. Even if the ps2 didnt break even and loss 1 billion minus games/accessories, thats still a 3 dollar profit a game. In context, it generated twice the entire profit of all of sonys markets in a year over 7 years.

This data is easily verified, wikipedia/google, and I feel to lazy.

Sony predicts a loss of 1.7 billion USD , and up to, 2.65 BILLION USD. But the unenligtened may say, SO WHAT? Ms lost 4 billion last gen and around 1.5 billion this gen. So what is the problem? The problem is Sony's YEAR long profits are 1.5 billion generally give or take three hundred million. By now Sony has lost AT LEAST 1 YEAR OF PROFIT to date, and potentially 2 YEARS of profit.

In perspective, over 6 years, MS has lost 5.4 billion, with a yearly profit of around 12 billion. Roughly 40%. A heck of a lot, and I'll admit that the venture will probably never be profitable, but in perspective, not as scary as it seems.

Already the Ps3 has all but eliminated the profits of the ps2. The most successful system of all time. And its still losing money, 240 USD loss has gone down, but thats NOT factoring the fact that Sony sells them to retailers for LESS than 600, probably 550 at highest. So realistically the loss is still at least 200 USD.

Sony however, is breaking even or close to it in the EU by selling it close to or at their cost level. If I'm not mistaken Japanese Ps3s are less than NA ps3's, and the 20 gb takes a 300 dollar loss, so its even more of a money sink.

Sony is going to have to wakeup, lose the smug attitude, and listen to their accountants. It would not be too unrealistic to think that Sony MAY pull outof the race. They'd still have at least 2 billion in profits from the playstation endeavour over around 15 years. 2 years of profit extra over 15 years. See the thing is the more Ps3 sells, the harder it is for Sony. If Sony were to sell 10 million units in 18 or so months to Japan and NA(where they are losing significant money), would equate to a 2 billion dollar loss. Throw in 10 games each and peripherals, maybe 1.5 billion. The point is, if this war is continued, the Ps3 may bow out due to attrition. In a few short years, 15 years of service to the gaming community may leave them with very little money, or even less, than what they started with. If they push on this generation, then there is a strong chance, and sufficient evidence in statistics, that by next generation, they will have no money to work with, and shareholders would most likely bar them from entering it again.

The ammount of pyschic gypsies in here is amazing. -Maddog-

Completely ignoring my post, dismissing facts as gypsy talk, and thinking that if Sony's profits are ground into the dust, theres going to be a Playstation4. I suppose your Best for ps3 Res Evil signature is a dead draw...

good point but the secret weapon Sony has is BluRay- they hope by including BluRay with the Ps3 that it will make BluRay the next-gen DVD format- so they will earn a lot of money from royalties that way- how much exactly remains to be seen.CwlHeddwyn

Unforunately, Blu ray disc sales are roundabout 1 million. Dvd sales are quite high.... Happy feet sold what, 4 million in USA in a short time period? Blu ray may  or may not become the niche choice until a more advanced drive comes out eventually, but even if it does, we're talking billions of dollars of losses already, and more to come.

The ammount of pyschic gypsies in here is amazing. -Maddog-

I agree. And most of them are pessimistic as hell. 

Interesting read. I guess fanboys will flame none the less.dommeus

I can disagree without flaming.

Well there could easly be a PS4 if your doom prediction comes just won't be a powerhorse and be cheaper.

Still you are calling a fail on the PS3 when it could take off.

So what would your suggestion be....stop making PS3's? The more units they get on the market the less the production cost becomes..thus, the less they lose....so why would they stop making PS3's to seize a profit loss....when eventually they will make a profit....Your homework is lacking.....maybe you should go back to accounting school.Goku004

I'm not making any such suggestions. That is ultimately up to Howard Stringer, the board of directors, and stockholders. I'm pointing out facts. You're dabbling in opinion. Yes the more they sell, the more they lose, but less they lose for when they sell more. But, and the big BUT is, how much will they lose. They've already oodles of money, how firm is Sony's resolve. Will they back down, when the money from the Ps1 and Ps2 is dwindling away, and the Ps3 is still deeply in red.

The ammount of pyschic gypsies in here is amazing. -Maddog-

Just like your sig that says RE5 best for PS3, I don't suppose you can prove that.

Or is it more of that phschic gypsie talk you and TC are so fond of.

[QUOTE="yuna707"]

[QUOTE="CwlHeddwyn"]good point but the secret weapon Sony has is BluRay- they hope by including BluRay with the Ps3 that it will make BluRay the next-gen DVD format- so they will earn a lot of money from royalties that way- how much exactly remains to be seen.TreyoftheDead

Unforunately, Blu ray disc sales are roundabout 1 million. Dvd sales are quite high.... Happy feet sold what, 4 million in USA in a short time period? Blu ray may or may not become the niche choice until a more advanced drive comes out eventually, but even if it does, we're talking billions of dollars of losses already, and more to come.

I hate to speak for him, but I don't think he did. I agree that Sony is in a bad spot, but this does not mean there will be no PS4. It's just way too early to tell.

 When the most successful console in history, the Ps2, has its profits all but gobbled up, with the Ps3 losing 200 dollars or more for every console in NA + Japan(60% of the market), its not in a bad position. A victory would be pyrrhic, sure they'd  go into the books with 3 in a row, but 60,000,000 consoles @ 100 dollar loss each(overall), considering that that would take price cuts for them to win, is erggh potentially 6 billion dollar loss +existing 2 billion, - games+peripherals of 1.5ish billion. That kinda loss is erggh big...

There may not be another xbox by your reasoning.dave_ps3

In perspective, Xbox 360 is making profit. The ps3 has lost huge amounts of money + is still going to lose. Potentially fatal not just for SCEA, but for Sony has a whole. I don't want the Ps3 to drop out. 3 players is perfect in this race, but  the music goes on whether you like it or not

So what would your suggestion be....stop making PS3's?  The more units they get on the market the less the production cost becomes..thus, the less they lose....so why would they stop making PS3's to seize a profit loss....when eventually they will make a profit....Your homework is lacking.....maybe you should go back to accounting school.Goku004

Oh and Sony has not eliminated the profits of the PS2.....they've only lossed about 70million right now and not even factoring in what their making off the PS2 which is selling as much as next gen consoles are.....thinking there won't be a PS4 is only hoping for failure but not the reality of it....we all know there will be a PS4....so plz stop with this idiotic talk about there not being a PS4.

[QUOTE="dave_ps3"]There may not be another xbox by your reasoning.yuna707

In perspective, Xbox 360 is making profit. The ps3 has lost huge amounts of money + is still going to lose. Potentially fatal not just for SCEA, but for Sony has a whole. I don't want the Ps3 to drop out. 3 players is perfect in this race, but the music goes on whether you like it or not

You do know the original Xbox lost Microsoft 4 billion right ? 

[QUOTE="Goku004"]So what would your suggestion be....stop making PS3's? The more units they get on the market the less the production cost becomes..thus, the less they lose....so why would they stop making PS3's to seize a profit loss....when eventually they will make a profit....Your homework is lacking.....maybe you should go back to accounting school.Goku004

Oh and Sony has not eliminated the profits of the PS2.....they've only lossed about 70million right now and not even factoring in what their making off the PS2 which is selling as much as next gen consoles are.....thinking there won't be a PS4 is only hoping for failure but not the reality of it....we all know there will be a PS4....so plz stop with this idiotic talk about there not being a PS4.

 70 million? You're kidding me, wheres this link? Thats why Sony executives have upped predictions of losses from 2.13 billion by end of march to 2.6 billion. I can't find a recent link to what it actually ended up as, if someone could, I'd appreciate it.

[QUOTE="yuna707"]

[QUOTE="dave_ps3"]There may not be another xbox by your reasoning.dave_ps3

In perspective, Xbox 360 is making profit. The ps3 has lost huge amounts of money + is still going to lose. Potentially fatal not just for SCEA, but for Sony has a whole. I don't want the Ps3 to drop out. 3 players is perfect in this race, but the music goes on whether you like it or not

You do know the original Xbox lost Microsoft 4 billion right ?

 read the damn post, yes I know and I acknowledged it, but you prove nothing by saying that, other than lack of a firm grasp of the economical situation. 4 billion is 30 odd % of MS profit annually. 2.6 billion is erghh only 1 1/2 - 2 years of Sony profit? Its like a beggar and millionaire, if the millionaire lost a few thousand, it would be a less detrimental to the millionare, than a beggar losing say 50$

[QUOTE="Goku004"]

[QUOTE="Goku004"]So what would your suggestion be....stop making PS3's? The more units they get on the market the less the production cost becomes..thus, the less they lose....so why would they stop making PS3's to seize a profit loss....when eventually they will make a profit....Your homework is lacking.....maybe you should go back to accounting school.yuna707

Oh and Sony has not eliminated the profits of the PS2.....they've only lossed about 70million right now and not even factoring in what their making off the PS2 which is selling as much as next gen consoles are.....thinking there won't be a PS4 is only hoping for failure but not the reality of it....we all know there will be a PS4....so plz stop with this idiotic talk about there not being a PS4.

 70 million? You're kidding me, wheres this link? Thats why Sony executives have upped predictions of losses from 2.13 billion by end of march to 2.6 billion. I can't find a recent link to what it actually ended up as, if someone could, I'd appreciate it.

Ooops...miss read my calculator, think it says 700mil...my fault.

This is really quite annoying, I'm getting virtually no intelligent replies, its fine to disagree, but saying OMG TEH GYPSY PSYCHIC. Since when did gypsies use facts and figures to prove their point.

I'm not saying there won't be a Ps4, unless Sony goes bankrupt, only they can make that happen! I'm saying that the Ps3 battle if won, is Pyrrhic in a financial sense. It has the capacity to cripple Sony as a whole. Never has such a dominant position with a console, Ps2, been so readily dissolved financially with the Ps3. A Ps4  not coming out is not an unreasonable line of thinking, going by evidence, not fanboyish response with no evidence, fake evidence, or childish retorts.

[QUOTE="dave_ps3"][QUOTE="yuna707"]

[QUOTE="dave_ps3"]There may not be another xbox by your reasoning.yuna707

In perspective, Xbox 360 is making profit. The ps3 has lost huge amounts of money + is still going to lose. Potentially fatal not just for SCEA, but for Sony has a whole. I don't want the Ps3 to drop out. 3 players is perfect in this race, but the music goes on whether you like it or not

You do know the original Xbox lost Microsoft 4 billion right ?

read the damn post, yes I know and I acknowledged it, but you prove nothing by saying that, other than lack of a firm grasp of the economical situation. 4 billion is 30 odd % of MS profit annually. 2.6 billion is erghh only 1 1/2 - 2 years of Sony profit? Its like a beggar and millionaire, if the millionaire lost a few thousand, it would be a less detrimental to the millionare, than a beggar losing say 50$

So how mcuh is MS making with the 360? They must make mony now and then but has it been constant? What about some of the free replacements they have to make? Aren't those loses?

You say Sony is loosing a lot of money, yea that's right but here's something you are acting as if they are losing everything and aren't changing your pesimist position about it just like those analist who predicted a huge loss to SOny and they shutted theyr mouth when they posted their loss and it was way less than predicted.

Sony isn't loosing money with every PS3 sold since those PS3's have already been manufactured. They lose it when they produce the units.

In favor to the TC, here is a very interesting article, in which the author claims more or less exactly the same things with the TC.

 Disclaimer; if there are errors in figures, they are my fault, post a link and I'm happy to edit. Any opinion on my behalf is reasonable, and not daydreaming. Long read, but it is mainly fact, not fanboy rant.

The cruel Irony is, that the more hardware the ps3 sells, the smaller sonys profits become, the angrier Sony investors become, the less chance of playing FF XVII or whatever on a Playstation 4.

Quick rundown:

Ps2's profits @ 115 million units sold, around 2.5 billion

Ps1's profits, @ 100 million, not sure probably 2 billion

Ps3's losses so far, 1.7-2.5 billion USD + @ 3 million odd units sold, with around 200 dollars loss a console(isuppli), depreciation in hardware is probably countered by the wholesale price of 550 or less (Shops need to make profit)

 

The Sony playstation 2 has sold 115 million units, and has pushed at least 1047 million software titles so far. At least 1.1 billion hardware sales have been achieved so far. The Ps2 earned Sony 2.4 billion USD in profit, or about twice their yearly profit. I'm quite sure that the Ps2's design, and marketing was at least broken even by incredible sales. This leaves us with 2 dollars give or take profit a game, with an attach ration of around 10. Even if the ps2 didnt break even and loss 1 billion minus games/accessories, thats still a 3 dollar profit a game. In context, it generated twice the entire profit of all of sonys markets in a year over 7 years. 

This data is easily verified, wikipedia/google, and I feel to lazy.

Sony predicts a loss of 1.7 billion USD , and up to, 2.65 BILLION USD. But the unenligtened may say, SO WHAT? Ms lost 4 billion last gen and around 1.5 billion this gen. So what is the problem? The problem is Sony's YEAR long profits are 1.5 billion generally give or take three hundred million. By now Sony has lost AT LEAST 1 YEAR OF PROFIT to date, and potentially 2 YEARS of profit.

In perspective, over 6 years, MS has lost 5.4 billion, with a yearly profit of around 12 billion. Roughly 40%. A heck of a lot, and I'll admit that the venture will probably never be profitable, but in perspective, not as scary as it seems.

Already the Ps3 has all but eliminated the profits of the ps2. The most successful system of all time. And its still losing money, 240 USD loss has gone down, but thats NOT factoring the fact that Sony sells them to retailers for LESS than 600, probably 550 at highest. So realistically the loss is still at least 200 USD. 

Sony however, is breaking even or close to  it in the EU by selling it close to or at their cost level. If I'm not mistaken Japanese Ps3s are less than NA ps3's, and the 20 gb takes a 300 dollar loss, so its even more of a money sink.

Sony is going to have to wakeup, lose the smug attitude, and listen to their accountants. It would not be too unrealistic to think that Sony MAY pull outof the race. They'd still have at least 2 billion in profits from the playstation endeavour over around 15 years. 2 years of profit extra over 15 years. See the thing is the more Ps3 sells, the harder it is for Sony. If Sony were to sell 10 million units in 18 or so months to Japan and NA(where they are losing significant money), would equate to a 2 billion dollar loss. Throw in 10 games each and peripherals, maybe 1.5 billion. The point is, if this war is continued, the Ps3 may bow out due to attrition. In a few short years, 15 years of service to the gaming community may leave them with very little money, or even less, than what they started with. If they push on this generation,  then there is a strong chance, and sufficient evidence in statistics, that  by next generation, they will have no money to work with, and shareholders would most likely bar them from entering it again.

 

 

yuna707

No one has lost more money than Microsoft.  Shouldn't they be the ones pulling out?

[QUOTE="yuna707"][QUOTE="Goku004"]

[QUOTE="Goku004"]So what would your suggestion be....stop making PS3's? The more units they get on the market the less the production cost becomes..thus, the less they lose....so why would they stop making PS3's to seize a profit loss....when eventually they will make a profit....Your homework is lacking.....maybe you should go back to accounting school.Goku004

Oh and Sony has not eliminated the profits of the PS2.....they've only lossed about 70million right now and not even factoring in what their making off the PS2 which is selling as much as next gen consoles are.....thinking there won't be a PS4 is only hoping for failure but not the reality of it....we all know there will be a PS4....so plz stop with this idiotic talk about there not being a PS4.

70 million? You're kidding me, wheres this link? Thats why Sony executives have upped predictions of losses from 2.13 billion by end of march to 2.6 billion. I can't find a recent link to what it actually ended up as, if someone could, I'd appreciate it.

Ooops...miss read my calculator, think it says 700mil...my fault.

Calculating loss is a bit trickier than pushing numbers on a calculator. Mind you thats why board of directors have to tell investors, as in my link!. Its an international crime to deliberately lie to investors, so if anything these reports are better than armchair analysts, or even proffessional ones.

[QUOTE="yuna707"]

Disclaimer; if there are errors in figures, they are my fault, post a link and I'm happy to edit. Any opinion on my behalf is reasonable, and not daydreaming. Long read, but it is mainly fact, not fanboy rant.

The cruel Irony is, that the more hardware the ps3 sells, the smaller sonys profits become, the angrier Sony investors become, the less chance of playing FF XVII or whatever on a Playstation 4.

Quick rundown:

Ps2's profits @ 115 million units sold, around 2.5 billion

Ps1's profits, @ 100 million, not sure probably 2 billion

Ps3's losses so far, 1.7-2.5 billion USD + @ 3 million odd units sold, with around 200 dollars loss a console(isuppli), depreciation in hardware is probably countered by the wholesale price of 550 or less (Shops need to make profit)

 

The Sony playstation 2 has sold 115 million units, and has pushed at least 1047 million software titles so far. At least 1.1 billion hardware sales have been achieved so far. The Ps2 earned Sony 2.4 billion USD in profit, or about twice their yearly profit. I'm quite sure that the Ps2's design, and marketing was at least broken even by incredible sales. This leaves us with 2 dollars give or take profit a game, with an attach ration of around 10. Even if the ps2 didnt break even and loss 1 billion minus games/accessories, thats still a 3 dollar profit a game. In context, it generated twice the entire profit of all of sonys markets in a year over 7 years.

This data is easily verified, wikipedia/google, and I feel to lazy.

Sony predicts a loss of 1.7 billion USD , and up to, 2.65 BILLION USD. But the unenligtened may say, SO WHAT? Ms lost 4 billion last gen and around 1.5 billion this gen. So what is the problem? The problem is Sony's YEAR long profits are 1.5 billion generally give or take three hundred million. By now Sony has lost AT LEAST 1 YEAR OF PROFIT to date, and potentially 2 YEARS of profit.

In perspective, over 6 years, MS has lost 5.4 billion, with a yearly profit of around 12 billion. Roughly 40%. A heck of a lot, and I'll admit that the venture will probably never be profitable, but in perspective, not as scary as it seems.

Already the Ps3 has all but eliminated the profits of the ps2. The most successful system of all time. And its still losing money, 240 USD loss has gone down, but thats NOT factoring the fact that Sony sells them to retailers for LESS than 600, probably 550 at highest. So realistically the loss is still at least 200 USD.

Sony however, is breaking even or close to it in the EU by selling it close to or at their cost level. If I'm not mistaken Japanese Ps3s are less than NA ps3's, and the 20 gb takes a 300 dollar loss, so its even more of a money sink.

Sony is going to have to wakeup, lose the smug attitude, and listen to their accountants. It would not be too unrealistic to think that Sony MAY pull outof the race. They'd still have at least 2 billion in profits from the playstation endeavour over around 15 years. 2 years of profit extra over 15 years. See the thing is the more Ps3 sells, the harder it is for Sony. If Sony were to sell 10 million units in 18 or so months to Japan and NA(where they are losing significant money), would equate to a 2 billion dollar loss. Throw in 10 games each and peripherals, maybe 1.5 billion. The point is, if this war is continued, the Ps3 may bow out due to attrition. In a few short years, 15 years of service to the gaming community may leave them with very little money, or even less, than what they started with. If they push on this generation, then there is a strong chance, and sufficient evidence in statistics, that by next generation, they will have no money to work with, and shareholders would most likely bar them from entering it again.

 

 

Subcritical

No one has lost more money than Microsoft. Shouldn't they be the ones pulling out?

Nah, Microsoft could lose 40 billion and would not have to pull out, to them it would be like losing 100 dollars. ...

Ones thing for sure. It will not be as successful ad the PS2 was.

But I would not be quick to say there is not going to be a PS4, I am surprised that there was a Wii after Gamecube.

No one has lost more money than Microsoft. Shouldn't they be the ones pulling out?

Subcritical

Ah but money loss to companies is in perspective. Sony has experienced a loss close to 200% of their annual profits on the Ps3 so far. Ms's 5.5 billion is in comparison a paltry 40 odd percent! of 12 billion. HAving a 20% profit margin certainly has its advantages over Sony's paltry sub 2% loss

[QUOTE="Subcritical"]

No one has lost more money than Microsoft. Shouldn't they be the ones pulling out?

dave_ps3

Nah, Microsoft could lose 40 billion and would not have to pull out, to them it would be like losing 100 dollars. ...

Kinda sad that it has become a spending game, and that because MS has a monopoly in the OS business, that they can now try to have a monopoly in the home entertainment arena.

What is even scarier is many in this forum support Microsoft or Sony in their quest to monopolize entertainment.

Ones thing for sure. It will not be as successful ad the PS2 was.

But I would not be quick to say there is not going to be a PS4, I am surprised that there was a Wii after Gamecube.

PelekotansDream

The thing is, although the Gamecube was not a wild success, its profit margins are. My Economics teacher marvels at efficiency of Nintendo, they know how to make money, and have quite generous profit margins. Remember, they were going to come back, as long as they had a fanbase and made some money. 

[QUOTE="dave_ps3"][QUOTE="Subcritical"]

No one has lost more money than Microsoft. Shouldn't they be the ones pulling out?

Subcritical

Nah, Microsoft could lose 40 billion and would not have to pull out, to them it would be like losing 100 dollars. ...

Kinda sad that it has become a spending game, and that because MS has a monopoly in the OS business, that they can now try to have a monopoly in the home entertainment arena.

What is even scarier is many in this forum support Microsoft or Sony in their quest to monopolize entertainment.

Ah but, is Sony not trying to monopolise home entertainment? Overpriced HD-TVS? Blu Ray? And Sony did not have any intentions to enter the gaming market before the Phillips-Nintendo CD license romp. Its business. Money is the name of the game!. Thats why lets hope they'res a Ps4 despite all the glum facts and figures. The greatest times for consumers are when businesses are competing fiercely!

To the poster of this thread don't be bitter, Sony has always done good with the gameconsoles, and the PS3 is already gaining rapidly on the 360. So my guess is, there will be a PS4, and they won't be surprised by MS a second time(like with the 360).

Problem is that Microsoft have their OS to fall back on. There isn't any competition to Microsoft's OS on the market, and look at how crappy their OS's are when they're released. If there was an OS that could compete on level with MS, then you'd be sure they'd put a s*** load more effort in.

All of Sony's endeavours on the other hand already have strong competition. It's just their product environments. Sony Pictures has 4-5 other big studios to compete with. MP3 players have Apple's iPod to compete with. Bravia TV's have a slew of other cheaper options that are at a equal level of quality (Samsung, Panasonic etc), that often sell for cheaper.

People used to buy Sony products because the brand demanded a level of quality that the public expected for the price they we're paying. Nowadays, Sony's products aren't standing up so well. People are realising that they can pay less to get the same product, albeit with a different label. Recent hic ups like the laptop battery malfunctions and the PS1 & PS2's disc read errors etc we're blown out of proportion in the media for the very reason that Sony used to be an A* quality company.

Of course Sony have DVD, which I imagine is their largest income generator.

If MS ever manage to completely dominate the market (this seems incredibly unlikely, mind), then they will release below par, expensive hardware and software, as they do with Windows.

I am not a fanboy. I do not own any of the new consoles, and I have a PS2 and a broken Xbox at home. There are just my thoughts.

interesting....lol overload of information but ye they are loosing money with the PS3 atm however i think sony has plenty of fan boys saving up every dollor to run out and buy their console.creativeminded

Except for the Wii, all consoles make big losses their first years, it's all about marketshare those first years.

Just curious how the TC has yet to disprove my points and making those of the many assumptions pass as truths by showing certain half proof. It was first on how SOny is losing profit and trying to make it look worse by comparing it to MS when it's Obvious that MS lost a lot last gen but it was to set a fan base, you can't compare Sony's lost with MS since they are being used for a different cause, and then bring the GC who made a lot of profit but hadn't Nintendo changed their policy this gen it wouldn't have gone too well.

Now it brings that Sony wants a monopoly on home entertaiment then again what is MS doing there? Why are they backing HD DVD so much and also jumping into other entertainment markets with the Zune? It seems one monopoly isn't enough.

It's quite easy to tell where this thread is going with the TC backing many arguments with predictions that many times get slammed by the companies and an uncerttain future where BR could win the war and bring profit to Sony and PS3. It seems somone got an overdose of economy class.

TC is correct and this information is nothing new.  Prior to the launch of the PS3, many people expected Sony to lose upwards of 1.5 BILLION in just one year.  I see now they could lose more, but potentially in 2-3 years, they will definately destroy all the money they made in the ps1 and ps2 era.  This is not estimates, but fact. 

Sony heavily relies on blu-ray saturation.  Without heavy early adoption, they are seriously screwed.  Poor adoption rates equals absolutely no chance of a price drop, which leads to even more dismal adoption.  A vicious cycle that will screw them in the long run.  I won't call Sony out... They just are in a very poor position. 

... yada, yada, yada, long profits are 1.5 billion generally give or take three hundred million. By now Sony has lost AT LEAST 1 YEAR OF PROFIT to date, and potentially 2 YEARS of profit.

In perspective, over 6 years, MS has lost 5.4 billion, with a yearly profit of around 12 billion. Roughly 40%. A heck of a lot, and I'll admit that the venture will probably never be profitable, but in perspective, not as scary as it seems.

Already the Ps3 has all but eliminated the profits of the ps2. The most successful system of all time. And its still losing money, 240 USD loss has gone down, but thats NOT factoring the fact that Sony sells them to retailers for LESS than 600, probably 550 at highest. So realistically the loss is still at least 200 USD.

Sony is going to have to wakeup, lose the smug attitude, and listen to their accountants. It would not be too unrealistic to think that Sony MAY pull outof the race...blah, blah, blah 

yuna707

A couple of points:

1. Consoles are typically loss leaders. They are designed to be sold at a loss and profits are either made at a later point or in other areas.

2. Productions costs drop significantly over time. Blue diodes have already dropped in price, a die shrink to 65nm is right around the corner and all future PS3s will most likely run BC through emulation eliminating the cost of including the EE on board.

3. income - expenditures = profits

what you are doing is

income - expenditures = profits - expenditures (PS3 operating losses)

While Sony's gaming division is losing money Sony as a whole is still profitable. Taken *out of context* the gaming division's losses don't look very bright to investors but that is why you have to look at *the whole picture* (see point #1). It takes a lot of initial capital to launch a juggernaut like the PS3 and Sony and their investors realize that.

In short you should leave the fortune telling to Miss Cleo and her Psychic Friends Network ;) 

I think it's a huge stretch to count Sony out of the game, not while they are still making money hand over fist on PS2.

If the PS3 continues to underperform and the PS4 underperforms as well, then I'd start the PlayStation deathwatch. 

..but..but...TEH BLOOO-RAY WILL SAVE US!!!!..

seriously tho; good read.  Altho the figures can't be 100% substantiated, you certainly appear to be in the right ballpark.

good post.

and yes, sony's in deep doggy doo....

it gets worse...

Just curious how the TC has yet to disprove my points and making those of the many assumptions pass as truths by showing certain half proof. It was first on how SOny is losing profit and trying to make it look worse by comparing it to MS when it's Obvious that MS lost a lot last gen but it was to set a fan base, you can't compare Sony's lost with MS since they are being used for a different cause, and then bring the GC who made a lot of profit but hadn't Nintendo changed their policy this gen it wouldn't have gone too well.

Now it brings that Sony wants a monopoly on home entertaiment then again what is MS doing there? Why are they backing HD DVD so much and also jumping into other entertainment markets with the Zune? It seems one monopoly isn't enough.

It's quite easy to tell where this thread is going with the TC backing many arguments with predictions that many times get slammed by the companies and an uncerttain future where BR could win the war and bring profit to Sony and PS3. It seems somone got an overdose of economy class.

tegovoltio

 I did not explicitly state there would be no ps4, I just presented data, and made reasonable assumptions, that no company can afford to see such huge losses proportional to their overall profit margin! Heck if Sony wants to continue waging battle, its there money and investors to deal with.

[QUOTE="yuna707"]

... yada, yada, yada, long profits are 1.5 billion generally give or take three hundred million. By now Sony has lost AT LEAST 1 YEAR OF PROFIT to date, and potentially 2 YEARS of profit.

In perspective, over 6 years, MS has lost 5.4 billion, with a yearly profit of around 12 billion. Roughly 40%. A heck of a lot, and I'll admit that the venture will probably never be profitable, but in perspective, not as scary as it seems.

Already the Ps3 has all but eliminated the profits of the ps2. The most successful system of all time. And its still losing money, 240 USD loss has gone down, but thats NOT factoring the fact that Sony sells them to retailers for LESS than 600, probably 550 at highest. So realistically the loss is still at least 200 USD.

Sony is going to have to wakeup, lose the smug attitude, and listen to their accountants. It would not be too unrealistic to think that Sony MAY pull outof the race...blah, blah, blah

skektek

A couple of points:

1. Consoles are typically loss leaders. They are designed to be sold at a loss and profits are either made at a later point or in other areas.

2. Productions costs drop significantly over time. Blue diodes have already dropped in price, a die shrink to 65nm is right around the corner and all future PS3s will most likely run BC through emulation eliminating the cost of including the EE on board.

3. income - expenditures = profits

what you are doing is

income - expenditures = profits - expenditures (PS3 operating losses)

While Sony's gaming division is losing money Sony as a whole is still profitable. Taken *out of context* the gaming division's losses don't look very bright to investors but that is why you have to look at *the whole picture* (see point #1). It takes a lot of initial capital to launch a juggernaut like the PS3 and Sony and their investors realize that.

In short you should leave the fortune telling to Miss Cleo and her Psychic Friends Network ;)

 you make some points about costs going down, and the huge investment. However, the Ps3 has lost 2.5 billion. The key point is, that if the Ps3 succeeds in selling, it also gouges Sony's profits. More ps3's sold, more debt. Of course consoles are generally sold at a loss to begin with, but this is a monumental loss, combined with billions in development. Sony as a whole is still profitable? Ps3 is already in too much debt to ever be profitable, its now question of how costly will this be to Sony Computer Entertainment. Make no mistake, at the rate SCEA is losing money, it won't be long before the investors come a knocking, its  a fact of life investors dont like investing in something with no foreseeable profit, 

I LIKE emphasising RANDOM words IN MY topic TITLE with capital LETTERS because CAPITAL letters make my THREAD LESS generic and MUNDANE.Jagazaar

Sorry, just did it to make the title sound Fanboyish, and attract more reads then a well set out grammatically correct title with appropriate diction.