State of Series X|S Development

With all the hype around the "most powerful console ever made", the Series X|S games continue to be underdeveloped for the hardware. The joke about "waiting on teh tools" is more real than most people realize. The core technology features of Series X|S are sparsely used or entirely missing action. Technologies such as Direct Storage, Variable Rate Shading (VRS), Mesh Shaders and Sampler feedback. Unreal 4 with Gears 5 upgrade uses VRS. No Direct Storage, Mesh Shader or Sampler Feedback implementations. Unreal 5 has Nanite and that is software version of Mesh Shader feature set. Unity on the other hand has absolutely none of those technologies available for Series X|S development. Some of the features having been backlogged or pending implementations for over a year. Next year March, Series X|S is finally going to implement "true asynchronous" direct storage in their GDK. That is 1.5 years after the release of the system. 😐

Meanwhile on PS5, the features are utilized by many developers, especially the equivalent to Direct Storage.

Would MS be able to get game engine makers to take advantage of Directx 12U features before the end of this console generation?

That's on developers but if MS wants to get them to then they'll need to publish their own games that showcase what it is capable of, and leave it to gamers to demand third parties do better.

An article I read a while back about the trigger rumble talked about how MS's own internal teams rarely utilized it and third parties almost never. Seems to me again just shows if MS wants other developers to utilize features they need to trailblaze that.

I can't agree it is on developers. MS needs to take the necessary steps to enable developers so that technologies can be integrated with their technology. However, you are correct that they should also be setting the example with first party titles.

Isn't it always the case that games get a little better looking as time goes by and developers become more comfortable with the hardware?

This generation seems to be all about framerates, and quite frankly, things since the previous generation have looked so good that I don't think there is much room for improvement, or that there even needs to be.

This gen is all about framerates, yet the technology touted in the Series X|S isn't used. 🤔

@Pedro: are MS first party studios using these features? I mean, halo infinite looks incredible on my TV. It shows the power of the xbox and what the ps5 simply can't reach. It feels like 343 used a lot of the xbox 360 capabilities.

@lamprey263: indeed, MS needs to hold their own developers to a higher standard

This is false. You CANNOT bypass the system API to create your own implementation on consoles. Hardware functions are literally calls to the API. You can ONLY run games using Directx on Xbox consoles.

Feel free to point out which of the features mentioned are in Halo Infinite.

It'll be more common once they drop last gen consoles but either way, lots of devs will just build their own solutions simply because it'll scale on other platforms.

Ex. COD has a VRS type solution on last gen consoles. The PS4 has a sampler feedback method in it's SDK. The PS5 has a Direct Storage equivalent that just works through basic storage request commands. etc.

Other platforms could have similar technologies in their SDKs so there's no or minimal advantage.

@Pedro: Halo Infinite uses VRS but that's about it afaik.

Now point me to the portion in which you can bypass the API or DirectX on the Xbox. I will wait.

"Pretty much this. But also the current hardware is programmable in a way where developers don't have to wait for MS to implement a specific API segment for them to take advantage."

And that is at MS discretion. Saying that developers don't have to wait for MS to implement a specific API segment to take advantage of the hardware is false.

Its funny how TC mentions made up crap inside the Xbox but nothing about the factual rdna3 features inside the ps5. Shows how much of a lemming he really is.

Well the “full” RDNA 2 “features” are bullshit, so there’s nothing of substance waiting to be unlocked. The main Xbox advantages are the TFLOPS and more comprehensive backwards compatibility. Other than that, these are damn near the same box. Stop it with this bs. It’s beyond stale at this point.

@Pedro: I don't know enough to point it out, but I can tell with my 2 eyes, halo is an outstanding looking game. I heard somewhere that it looks even better with brightness toned down -15 to -25, so I did that and wow...

And the API determines what access you have to the hardware. It is clear you are just spewing stuff.

These features have been available in Nvidia RTX 2000 cards and has yet to be realized in any game engine. If you think the tech mentioned is bullshit, then you are just ignorant. Not, like it is the first time or last time you parade your ignorance.

Pedro actually just wants someone to call out this response thread over the many threads of PS5 superiority the last few weeks.

Sounds more like you are preparing a response thread to this.😂

Sonycels BTFO.

DirectX API is just a collection of functions talking to the video / sound /input drivers. Why in the world would you want to bypass DirectX, what's stopping you in the version of windows that runs on it from talking directly to those drivers, and who would even bother bypassing directx? It seems so pointless with how much more power than last gen the current gen consoles have.

To me it's very simple. Third party devs develop games for the Sony platforms in mind them just port them to the xbox versions. Sony has more customers and more sales. The Series x is more powerful and has more features. If devs took the time every game would have a advantage on the Series x. Forza 5 is the best looking graphics bar none. Nothing from Sony even comes close.

Series X isn't all that impressive, Series S far less. News at at 11. Since 12 > 9 TFlops turned out to be a total bust, and MS is moving on past old games I guess it's time for lems to double down on Game Pass again as a selling point. Siiiigjh.

It's just going to take time. The software is simply behind the hardware. by and large devs are still using last gen tech on steroids and bolting on some stuff like ray tracing. we were warned a couple of years ago that there was going to be a 2 year cross gen period (and with the current shortages it could very well be longer).

its not the first time this has happened. it tooks 2-3-ish years for devs to get their heads around the PS3 and 360 too. software was behind the hardware (before then everything was single threaded and GPUs had more basic programmable pixel and vertex shaders). the PS4 and X1 were more the exception in that regard. they didnt really bring much new in terms of tech. they were more just a 360 with a GPU and ram upgrade (where the GPU upgrade was more just a brute force upgrade. no major new features).

To be honest i dont think this is an Xbox exclusive problem either. It's the same with the PS5 and PC. games are old tech ramped up to the nines with some extras bolted on. a couple of devs have used basic brute force with the PS5s SSD (R&C and 2-3 second load times is a very basic use). ray tracing has been basically tacked on to some games. but these games are not making the best use of the resources available to them.

The matrix and Lumen Tech demo are a glimpse of what the PS5 and XSX/S and DX12U compliant PCs can really do (i wonder why there is no PC version of the matrix tech demo? maybe it needs more QA to get working on different configs). They are a very clear step up from the PS4 and X1.

In terms of MS specifically: they have quite a few of their own studios now. one of the reasons to have a first party is to push the boat out.....to sell hardware (or in MSs case, get more subscribers) by making people go "WOW".

Traditionally The elder scrolls has been a technological groundbreaking game when it released. I remember the amazing water effects in morrowind for the time. the massive open world in oblivion and even the jump from oblivion to skyrim was quite significant despite running on the same hardware. So bethesda should be set a target: use every single tool the XSX/S has available to produce the most technologically stunning game the world has seen yet. to produce an open world with 0 loading screens (not done in Elder scrolls yet) that has an absolutely stunning attention to detail scaled across a large world. on a side note: i hope Bethesda are moving on to a new engine. Maybe using next gen ID Tech with a lot of collaboration with ID.

In all seriousness, it happens more than not that the technical capabilities of the hardware, things that are showed off in technical demos never reach a finished product.

Ignorance?!?! I‘ve owned multiple RTX cards. I own all the consoles. Look at the features that are being touted here. Then compare the features performance on AMD cards vs Nvidia cards. AMD is waaaaay behind. Then they shoehorn some welfare version of these features in their underpowered consoles. And like you’ve said, no game engine uses these features. And the raytracing capabilities of these consoles is damn near zero. So what are we doing here?

By the time devs start using mesh shaders in actual games, the consoles won’t be able to utilize them in the same way PC GPUs can. And we’ve already seen how AMD can’t keep up with Nvidia in the mesh shaders benchmarks. AMD losing yet again. Who saw that coming? Lol. Ray tracing? They might as well not bother. VRS? Who cares when the resolution needs to be dropped to 1080p or less to get the FPS over 60? These AMD powered consoles are nothing to fight over. They’re damn near the same box. One has more CUs while the other is clocked higher. And a couple RDNA 2 “features” that will likely never see the light of day…

The lack of games is what's going to kill Microsoft as always, not their slightly underpowered hardware. They are still failing to create any games that get the hype and sales as God of War, Spider-Man, Horizon, Uncharted, etc.

@goldenelementxl: You literally confirmed that you don't know what you are talking about. Next time, educate yourself on the actual topic then hop in. Until then, take a seat.

It definitely isn't just a Xbox problem but Sony has done a better job supporting the features of their hardware than Xbox.

The Matrix demo seems more like a sell of the engine one less highend hardware, that being consoles.

All of the technologies mentioned in the OP is optimization tech. Direct Storage, uses built-in acceleration that offloads work from the CPU. Variable Rate Shading, optimizes shader rendering so that the GPU doesn't process each pixel with the same level of accuracy. Sampler Feedback, reduces memory footprint by only loading what is needed, when it is needed into memory. Mesh shaders, the new geometry process that improves vertex handling allows for things like culling prior to being pushed by the fragment shader. This tech has yet to be utilize. Like you said, they are still doing things the old way despite the advances in hardware. Ray tracing can take a back seat to these tech, especially since it offers more meaningful utilization of the hardware.

Mesh shaders are part of the pipeline and not the entire pipeline. For utilization, the game engine would need to restructure the way it manages vertex processing. That is entirely on the developer. However, it is MS duty to push adoption of new tech. They have not hosted a training session on their hardware in over two years (November 2019).

Epic is using compute shaders for the implementation of Nanite. It is not using Mesh shaders. Feel free to correct me on this.

Which GDK implementation I stated, didn't exist? What are you talking about when you say, developers would be able to create their own implementation?

I have been saying it for a long time that it's preposterous how a company like MS doesn't have an inhouse engine and solely rely on UE/Epic. I mean even Amazon which was new to the gaming scene bought the rights to Cryengine and tried to adapt Lumberyard to their needs.

It seems like the status quo will continue and MS will continue to rely on UE5 moving forward. Putting all your eggs in one basket isn't a smart move as already demonstrated by Apple/Epic fiasco. Epic were lucky that court restrained Apple for outright banning Epic yet the danger is there.

Well they have ID Tech now is suppose. It will be interesting to see if MS do push their internal studios to all use ID Tech going forward.

On the one hand it would certainly make sense. 1 engine to rule them all.

On the other though: that approach has contributed to some major problems (Frosbite and Bioware being the most public one. Arkane also had problems with ID Tech and Dishonoured 2 i think).

Id Tech will probably need a shed load of work to make it suitable for more types of games.

The other issue with this approach, of course, is people. I had a quick look and it looks like the general public can't access ID Tech to play around with it (Correct me if i'm wrong). So even if they build a great toolset and their existing staff knows it well, unless it also works a lot like publicly available engines, its also going to have a higher learning curve.

One of the big advantages Unity and Unreal has at the moment is everyone tinkering with games development or doing games development courses are, by and large, learning their trade on Unity or Unreal.

That’s cute. I would totally destroy this narrative of yours, but you’re not worth it.

As @girlusocrazy has illustrated, your posts aren’t making much sense. You’re only slightly more coherent than RonValencia when trying to fake your way through tech talk.

You fell for marketing and are now trying to Google your way through this discussion. I do appreciate you not posting charts and graphs that have nothing to do with the topic like Ron would. But ultimately, you will end up disappearing like Ron would before he was banned for doing exactly what you are right now… Just take the L and move on

It is funny that you think you know what you are talking about. "I own multiple RTX cards" 😂. Take a seat.

Maybe you should take the time to read what you are responding to instead of getting a knee jerk reaction.

"Would MS be able to get game engine makers to take advantage of Directx 12U features before the end of this console generation?"

The technologies I have mentioned are not part of current game engines. Unreal is using their own implementation on compute shaders. They are not using Mesh Shaders for Nanite. Which translates to using old tech not new.

It is ridiculous. Now they own ID Tech. Are they going to make it the showcase for their tech? I am not holding my breath on that.

Well, they have a solid base with Id Tech however it depends if they are willing to commit resources to also have a flexible tool chain around Id Tech that any developer or most developers can use it. It remains to be seen however as I said, they are already committed to UE5.

I think the problem with Dishonored 2 was it was Id Tech 5 and was still using MegaTextures. Id Tech doesn't have the same problem as far as I know.

For sure, the problem with Id Tech or any engine outside of UE/Unity was and will be the support and too chains. Pretty sure at one point, Carmack said that he's happy Epic captured the third party engine market because Id doesn't have the resources to commit to support outside studios and he would also much rather experiment with the engine rather than just stick with it and slowly evolve it due to not cause any breaking changes to otder studios work. This is no longer the case, knowing MS and their infinite war chest it's not an impossible task at all now. They don't even need to have wider adoption like UE5/Unity needs because they wants to earn money from it. MS could subsidize it because of other benefits that it could bring. They just have to make it competitive engine for their studios and also made it available for everyone else if they want.

I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. My home office looks like a Microcenter…

We are not talking about what you own. Ownership of hardware does not equate to understanding of said hardware. Neither was I talking about AMD vs Nvidia which you defaulted to. If you want to discuss the actual topic, that would be great. 😊

I was. You stated that Xbox games are “underdeveloped“ for the hardware. I’m telling you that you are expecting too much from the hardware. It has underdelivered since launch, and continues to do so. And I brought up Nvidia vs AMD for a reason. The reason the hardware in underperforming and underdelivering is because it’s AMD. That’s what they do… I understand this fact based on a decade plus of working with the GPU vendors professionally as well as building and benchmarking PC’s for fun in my spare time. I’ve been on the 3D Mark hall of fame before, and it sure as hell wasn’t with an AMD GPU

I‘m sorry you expected so much from the hardware… I’m just glad we have ssd’s and 60fps on consoles.

I am not expecting too much from the hardware. The hardware is objectively under-utilized. This has nothing to do with AMD hardware. It also has nothing to do with benchmarks. It is clear you are off the mark with regards to the topic at hand. You being on the 3D mark hall of fame literally has nothing to do with the topic at hand. You really may have to sit this one out.

It has EVERYTHING to do with this. We have mesh shaders benchmarks from both AMD and Nvidia. A much more capable AMD GPU gets smoked by Nvidia in those benchmarks. So what will a watered down console GPU do? We may never see mech shaders utilized this generation. And if we do, it will be some super gimped implementation just like ray tracing. How is this off topic? I’ve brought this up already in the thread, but you clearly don’t wanna hear it

This board has become less interested in actual discussion, and more about confirmation bias. It’s really too bad…

Again, you keep deviating to your foolish obsession with AMD vs Nvidia. This thread is NOT about these two companies. Stop derailing into your nonsense. Take a seat because you are unable to grasp the topic.