The Gamer in me rejoiced. The Philosopher in me cringed. (Infamous spoilers)

This topic is locked from further discussion.

Avatar image for Pariah-
Pariah-

787

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#1 Pariah-
Member since 2009 • 787 Posts

I really liked inFamous, but I had a real problem with its karma system.

The story was great and the gameplay was awesome. Roaming the streets looking for fights in the areas with downed electricity was absolutely addictive. And the powers--while not as numerous as I had hoped--Were pretty varied.

However, from the very beginning, I had a reigning concern about exactly what they would cla ssify as "evil" vs. what they'd cla ssify as "good." And apparently my worries were well placed.

Since this game sought to immitate superhero comics as much as possible, there are a number of philosophical cliches such as, "With great power comes great responsibility," or "My capacity not to kill is what separates me from you." i.e. Having powers obligates you to save lives and abstain from killing people. Consequently, as Cole, if you simply decide to do nothing to save people or if you end up killing anyone (even enemies you bio-leech), you're punished with bad karma. While apathy isn't exactly a good characteristic, it's not something to judge a person's morality by. The idea that one should be dedicated towards "selflessness" or "the common good" simply because you have abilities beyond those of most people isn't just Marxist; it's stupid. And it totally ignores the deeper complexities of a "selfish" philosophy. Take Batman for example: he risks his neck every night to make sure Gotham doesn't fall apart, but he doesn't operate based on feelings of responsibility or work towards a greater good. He does what he does simply because he has the drive to. In other words, he's operating based on purely selfish motivations. so it's rather insensistive to categorize all instances of selfish behavior as bad or "unheroic." I personally have no problem distinguishing heroism from selfishness since the idea of selflessness is established as heroism's cornerstone, but unfortunately that won't keep people from designating characters like Batman as heroes even though it's technically improper nomenclature.

In which case, if a person with extraordinary powers is characterized with a selfish disposition, he or she will be immediately labeled as villainous and his or her behavior will involve walking all over other people to get what they want. The problem with this "selfish" stereotype is the qualities it ignores when you consider what it means to be totally consumed with one's self, desires, and well being as opposed to sacrificing one's happiness for the sake of an alleged "common good" thats existance is proposed by and innocuous moral edict. To be truly selfish, one can't simply be concerned with his or her own happiness, but also make sure they involve no one else as a conduit. Since "evil" Cole involved other people in his pursuit for domination, he isn't technically selfish.

As far as the "common good" is concerned, if I were to suppose such a thing existed, I would associate its conception with the most practical means of selfishness, which is Capitalism. To quote Ayn Rand: "The moral justification of capitalism does not lie in the altruist claim that it represents the best way to achieve "the common good." It is true that capitalism does—if that catch-phrase has any meaning—but this is merely a secondary consequence. The moral justification of capitalism lies in the fact that it is the only system consonant with man's rational nature, that it protects man's survival qua man, and that its ruling principle is: justice."

Suppose this definition of "common good" were to be reversed and extraneous elements--persons other than yourself--actually told you what was good and bad depending upon what other people expected of you rather than what served your individual interests.

Moving along...To be fair, throughout most of the game, almost all the moral decisions were fine even if they were a little lukewarm. There was a decent amount of moral conflict. But the quotes between days were terrible--the only ones I personally approved of were Churchill's and Kafka's. I knew that, eventually, they'd lead up to something disastrous--and they did. It was a mission dubbed, "The Price."

Apparently choosing to save the person you love rather than six strangers is designated as an evil act because it's "selfish." I admit that throughout the game, I was predominantly evil, but for the sake of character consistency, I chose to save the girlfriend over six doctors (even though she's a prima donna). This was apparently a big nono because Sucker Punch believes that people should sacrifice their happiness for some sort of "greater good."

The way I see it, coercing people to believe that they should subordinate their loved ones and things you care about for extraneous elements and strangers simply for the sake of being "selfless" is the true evil.

I'm aware that this segment was meant to complement Kessler's point about being too predisposed with his family's safety to take care of the threat before it killed everyone, but the execution was flawed. Keeping his family safe and caring about them above all else was not wrong. He just went about it the wrong way. If he had decided to fight the mysterious evil when he had the chance, he would have saved his family and everyone else in the process thereby maintaining this spurious "common good" that he mentioned. And Evil Cole's 'strong v. weak' speech at the end just exacerbated the point.

With regards to moral choices, Sucker Punch should have taken lessons from The Suffering, which is an excellent example of an open ended game based on player choices (although it did have a questionable euthanasia apsect).

Avatar image for wayne_kar
wayne_kar

2090

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#2 wayne_kar
Member since 2009 • 2090 Posts

you do realize that nobody reads more than a couple of words in SW. if you typed all that you've wasted your time

Avatar image for heretrix
heretrix

37881

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 6

User Lists: 0

#3 heretrix
Member since 2004 • 37881 Posts

I had a problem with the story and the karma system.

Avatar image for DPhunkT
DPhunkT

1803

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#4 DPhunkT
Member since 2008 • 1803 Posts
I only read the first line and became bored. Sorry.
Avatar image for player_leo
player_leo

1483

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#5 player_leo
Member since 2002 • 1483 Posts
I didn't read what you typed, but YEAH I totally agree !
Avatar image for CannedWorms
CannedWorms

3381

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 40

User Lists: 0

#6 CannedWorms
Member since 2009 • 3381 Posts

Not to be rude, but what is the moral of the story?

Avatar image for Pariah-
Pariah-

787

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#7 Pariah-
Member since 2009 • 787 Posts

I typed it out a month ago on the designated board. Got into a big convo. Thought someone here might care.

Oh well. C'est la vie.

Avatar image for Filthybastrd
Filthybastrd

7124

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#8 Filthybastrd
Member since 2009 • 7124 Posts

While I do see your point TC, I'm afraid that's about as complex as games are going to get.

Avatar image for z4twenny
z4twenny

4898

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 7

User Lists: 0

#9 z4twenny
Member since 2006 • 4898 Posts

dude, it's a video game. not "war and peace"

Avatar image for organic_machine
organic_machine

10143

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#10 organic_machine
Member since 2004 • 10143 Posts

I typed it out a month ago on the designated board. Got into a big convo. Thought someone here might care.

Oh well. C'est la vie.

Pariah-

I rather enjoyed the post, actually. I just don't know how to respond. I agree with your point about the whole "good" vs evil machanics.

Avatar image for Pariah-
Pariah-

787

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#11 Pariah-
Member since 2009 • 787 Posts

Well, glad someone took from it I guess.

Avatar image for pyromaniac223
pyromaniac223

5896

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#12 pyromaniac223
Member since 2008 • 5896 Posts
Here's something I discovered a while ago: Game developers aren't philosophers. And generally, neither are gamers, as the majority of them consider MGS4 to be a pertinent and moving story. Planescape was great though.
Avatar image for agentfred
agentfred

5666

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#13 agentfred
Member since 2003 • 5666 Posts

The way I see it, coercing people to believe that they should subordinate their loved ones and things you care about for extraneous elements and strangers simply for the sake of being "selfless" is the true evil.Pariah-
This actually comes across as a pretty standard Utilitarian conundrum. Assuming no personal attachment to any of these seven people, nor knowledge of them, the Utilitarian choice would be as simple as 6>1. When you consider that the six people are doctors, and therefore capable of saving more lives, and providing more "good", the Utilitarian would claim that each of their lives is more valuable than one of hers, making the choice even more obvious, right? Sucker Punch is clearly trying to convey that personal attachment messes with our heads, and can make us do seemingly unreasonable, and unethical things. I don't personally agree with that sentiment, bit I'm not about to say an entirely justifiable ethical viewpoint is garbage, so Sucker Punch and I will just agree to disagree on this one. :P

Avatar image for Pariah-
Pariah-

787

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#14 Pariah-
Member since 2009 • 787 Posts

That was exactly my point really: that the utilitarin view is inherently unethical in and of itself since it encroaches obligatory feelings upon one's character for the sake of interests not his or her own. Sacrifice for an unaccountable "greater good."

Avatar image for agentfred
agentfred

5666

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#15 agentfred
Member since 2003 • 5666 Posts

That was exactly my point really: that the utilitarin view is inherently unethical in and of itself since it encroaches obligatory feelings upon one's character for the sake of interests not his or her own.

Pariah-
So you are suggesting that an ethical resolution would be the pursuit of personal "good" rather than the "common good"? Furthermore, "good" can be defined as what brings oneself happiness/pleasure/etc. irrespective of wider consequences? This is certainly reminiscent of Objectivism, which I can't say I entirely agree with, but I can relate to.
Avatar image for Pariah-
Pariah-

787

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#16 Pariah-
Member since 2009 • 787 Posts

Yep. Objectivism.

I did mention Ayn Rand after all.

But it's not necessarily irrespective of wider consequences. What you do as an individual would be an acknowledgement that what you do is ideal of all individuals. Thus, if everyone were to operate on objectivism, no one would have to worry about anyone else's interests anyway since everyone has their own covered. That's Rand's definition of the "common good": a bi-product of the philosophy rather than a goal of it.

Avatar image for agentfred
agentfred

5666

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#17 agentfred
Member since 2003 • 5666 Posts
Anyway, so the problem here is inherent to any good or evil morality system. By defining some action as good, and another as evil, you are asserting your own personal beliefs and morals, which may conflict with the player's. Furthermore, by doing so, the player no longer considers which course of action is appropriate, but rather, which will give them good/evil points so that they can make a "good guy", or a "bad guy", thus effectively removing the ethics. The majority of games use this flawed system, and for the most part, they all suffer from not having any moral consequences. One notable exception to this is The Witcher, where there is no such thing as good or bad, but rather, two different viewpoints. Hopefully game developers will wise up, and stop using the outdated black and white morality systems, but it isn't looking to promising.
Avatar image for xionvalkyrie
xionvalkyrie

3444

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#18 xionvalkyrie
Member since 2008 • 3444 Posts

What if it wasn't 6 doctors but a school bus full of children? Spiderman lucked out and was able to save them both but what if that was the decision cole was faced with? Or even a city full of people?

Avatar image for ManicAce
ManicAce

3267

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 26

User Lists: 0

#19 ManicAce
Member since 2009 • 3267 Posts
There are lot of issues with the good/evil systems in games. But isn't good and evil just a matter of definition in the end, and depend on the individual's own viewpoint? If that's the case you could say that the game developer defines what is good and what is evil in the game, and you play it by their rules, if your opinion happens to differ from their's well that's tough luck. Personally I'd also save the girl over some strangers, and I wouldn't consider it evil.
Avatar image for Filthybastrd
Filthybastrd

7124

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#20 Filthybastrd
Member since 2009 • 7124 Posts

There are lot of issues with the good/evil systems in games. But isn't good and evil just a matter of definition in the end, and depend on the individual's own viewpoint? If that's the case you could say that the game developer defines what is good and what is evil in the game, and you play it by their rules, if your opinion happens to differ from their's well that's tough luck. Personally I'd also save the girl over some strangers, and I wouldn't consider it evil.ManicAce

I would'nt even consider wether or not it was evil. It's entirely a matter of what's important to you.

Good and evil don't apply to the real world the same way they do to games at all.

Avatar image for ManicAce
ManicAce

3267

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 26

User Lists: 0

#21 ManicAce
Member since 2009 • 3267 Posts

[QUOTE="ManicAce"]There are lot of issues with the good/evil systems in games. But isn't good and evil just a matter of definition in the end, and depend on the individual's own viewpoint? If that's the case you could say that the game developer defines what is good and what is evil in the game, and you play it by their rules, if your opinion happens to differ from their's well that's tough luck. Personally I'd also save the girl over some strangers, and I wouldn't consider it evil.Filthybastrd

I would'nt even consider wether or not it was evil. It's entirely a matter of what's important to you.

Good and evil don't apply to the real world the same way they do to games at all.

Not like in games but they do exist for some people, it's a matter of choice really. Though I doubt many would consciously choose to be evil.
Avatar image for wstfld
wstfld

6375

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#22 wstfld
Member since 2008 • 6375 Posts
I just read Atlas Shrugged last month. Didn't really agree with the whole thing. The world would be an even colder place than it already is.
Avatar image for D00nut
D00nut

7618

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 12

User Lists: 0

#23 D00nut
Member since 2003 • 7618 Posts

Consider developers that just don't want to flesh out a system of choice that actually takes time and effort. Many games suffer these days from choices that try to set up emotional and heart-rendering consequences. However, I think most developers realize that they have to develop for a wide audience, and most don't want to overburden gamers with virtual decisions.

Put it this way, superficially, everyone has been brought up with an idea of what good/evil is. Helping those in need (like the young and old) and stopping those that persecute others. Evil is of course, stealing, killing, and any manner that is considered indecent. Basically, these choices reflect upon a basic system of rules and government. Most people don't realize that the choices of life lead to many tough-to-bear consequences that involve more results than simple "rewards" that are in video games.

It's easy to say that stealing is bad, but most people don't see that that's the only way some people survive. In a book I'm currently reading, A Long Way Gone, depicts the story of a child soldier. Before he is enlisted into the military at the age of 12, he and others try to escape Rebel Forces in Sierra Leonne by running. Most of the time they have to resort to stealing food in villages just to get by. If your life is on the run to stop becoming a child soldier, and you have no means of acquiring food, I think it's safe to say you would steal as well.

Not only that, but as they travel, many villages capture them and think that they are indeed Rebel Child Soldiers. It's a terrible sight that they are bounded and interrogated when they are clearly not rebels. But is it horrible of the villagers to protect themselves? I think not.

So to conclude, games will always revolve around superficial means of good/evil. Movies such as action and fantasies alwasy depict it the same way, along with games, and few will ever take a few steps over the clear defined line.

*Takes off Philosopher glasse* In other words, Game developers suck with choice systems :P

Avatar image for Zero_epyon
Zero_epyon

20500

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

#24 Zero_epyon
Member since 2004 • 20500 Posts

you do realize that nobody reads more than a couple of words in SW. if you typed all that you've wasted your time

wayne_kar
OMG seriously i scrolled down to the final point after the first paragraph. No offense TC.
Avatar image for DerekLoffin
DerekLoffin

9095

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 47

User Lists: 0

#25 DerekLoffin
Member since 2002 • 9095 Posts
Take Batman for example: he risks his neck every night to make sure Gotham doesn't fall apart, but he doesn't operate based on feelings of responsibility or work towards a greater good. He does what he does simply because he has the drive to. In other words, he's operating based on purely selfish motivations.Pariah-
You're using the psychological egoism argument here, which isn't much of an argument. The selfishness of his drive is really in the end irrelevant. We really don't care what is driving you to do selfless actions. It may make you feel happy. You may feel an obligation. Maybe it pays well. It could even be a weird erotic thing to you. It doesn't change the fact that you're acting selflessly and that you consider this a positive thing for yourself. The point is, selflessness is not mutually exclusive with selfish motivation. In fact, psychologically it may be utterly impossible to achieve a truly selfless motivation. Even trading your life for someone else can be construed to be a selfishly motivated act, but the motivation isn't really important. That you acted selflessly and considered it a positive thing to do is really all we care about.
Avatar image for Pariah-
Pariah-

787

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#26 Pariah-
Member since 2009 • 787 Posts
It doesn't change the fact that you're acting selflessly and that you consider this a positive thing for yourself. The point is, selflessness is not mutually exclusive with selfish motivation. In fact, psychologically it may be utterly impossible to achieve a truly selfless motivation. DerekLoffin
The action itself is not what identifies the interests of the party or parties involved. Therefore you cannot use action alone to define "selflessness" or "selfishness." It's the motivation that creates the distinction between the two. I understand what you're trying to say, but your contention assumes that there's no real concrete differences produced by either selfless actions or selfish actions when in reality there are . The concrete demonstration just tends to be more gradual than blatant.
Avatar image for zarshack
zarshack

9936

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 149

User Lists: 0

#27 zarshack
Member since 2009 • 9936 Posts

Too many words :( I did not read enough to know what the entire thing was about, But i wanted to comment anyway.