The hate on Nintendo doesn't really make sense.

We all have our preferences (PC, Wii, PS3, 360) and we all want to see our systems get plenty of sales to get plenty of quality games developed for that system.

And if you're not a Nintendo fan, you're probably a little annoyed that Nintendo has already had great success with the Wii. But seriously, what is the point? Nintendo wasn't even in the competition last gen. They did nothing to make Sony and MS work harder. This gen, it's different.

Nintendo is going in a new direction and are going to capture an entirely new market. More people in the market = more games. And not all of them are going to be casual games. These non-gamers are bound to buy some traditional games too, which means devs will work on both kinds of games. And Wii's success will only make Sony/MS work harder.

You can dislike the console but not liking its success doesn't make sense. What do you guys think?

People keep saying that casual games are going to ruin gaming, but in my opinion, they're only going to affect the Wii. I don't see 360 or PS3 going too far down that path because that's not what they were made for.

Thing is, Nintendo didn't really have much of a choice. Yeah, I would have liked to have seen a powerful new Nintendo console, but that would be an EXTREMELY stupid business move. After two losing generations (sadly), they had to try something new.

I think that next gen every console will have a motion sensor controller. Same way every console had analog sticks and rumble after the N64. :) Also, I agree 100% with you.akruan

Check your history mate, don't want to look dumb now do you?

As for the hate, I don't really see the success rate. Though its understandable how some people can be frosty but as you said, its pretty lame to hate that aspect. Either way, I was always one of the people that couldn't figure out how people could even enjoy bashing consoles in the first place.

I agree. There is no reason to hate Nintendo and the success they have with the Wii

I disagree, what new market, nintendo wii sales ahve been horrible for nongamer games, such as boogie that sold terribly, resident evil 4 on the other hand sold especially well, nobody wants family games like boogie.benjaminbuckner

Nintendogs, Brain Training, Wiisports - Not traditional games, opened up a new market with insane sales for each title. There will be more.

[QUOTE="benjaminbuckner"]I disagree, what new market, nintendo wii sales ahve been horrible for nongamer games, such as boogie that sold terribly, resident evil 4 on the other hand sold especially well, nobody wants family games like boogie.the-very-best

Nintendogs, Brain Training, Wiisports - Not traditional games, opened up a new market with insane sales for each title. There will be more.

all firsty games are what you mentioned, list some third party games.

[QUOTE="akruan"]I think that next gen every console will have a motion sensor controller. Same way every console had analog sticks and rumble after the N64. :) Also, I agree 100% with you.ArcticSnake

Check your history mate, don't want to look dumb now do you?

As for the hate, I don't really see the success rate. Though its understandable how some people can be frosty but as you said, its pretty lame to hate that aspect. Either way, I was always one of the people that couldn't figure out how people could even enjoy bashing consoles in the first place.

Why are you saying that "mate"? It was after the N64 that analog sticks became a standard in video game consoles. Also it was after the N64 that "rumble" became a standard in video games.

I disagree, what new market, nintendo wii sales ahve been horrible for nongamer games, such as boogie that sold terribly, resident evil 4 on the other hand sold especially well, nobody wants family games like boogie.benjaminbuckner

Boogie sucked, most games that suck dont sell well, RE4 is a good game, and good games tend to sell well.

People keep saying that casual games are going to ruin gaming, but in my opinion, they're only going to affect the Wii. I don't see 360 or PS3 going too far down that path because that's not what they were made for.

--ProtoMan--

Good point. The new games that have been announced over the past year for 360 and PS3 certainly aren't casual games which just goes to show that the traditional gamer market hasn't just disappeared.

Simple reality is that there are two markets now: The traditional gamer market (GTA, Halo, MGS, GT, Forza etc), and the non-gamer market (Brain Training, Nintendogs, Wiisports etc). All consoles will get a share of games for both markets, but neither market is going to disappear.

certainly a very good point TC. sony have set the standard with the PS2. frankly...they made a joke of the competition. when one platform outsells the other combined...X2 and then some then the competition is piss poor. MS had an axcuse at least...they were learning the ropes. but nintendo really were pathetic with the GC. fine machine...some great games (it was my fav console last gen). but ninty had seriously lost the plot.

looking at nintendo this gen.....they are a completly different company now compared to the GC. there offering something different and my god are they supporting it. compared to last gen.....nintendo are really firing on all cylinders......there working there ass off. the DS is an amazing system with loads of brilliant games. the wii doesent really have enough top class games yet (though it certainly has some) but they will be here soon. MS and sony will certainly be taking some notes now and will hopefully work alot harder to get the markets attention. the last thing they want is to be left so far behind the wii that they become as insignificant as the Xbox and GC were last gen.

[QUOTE="the-very-best"]

[QUOTE="benjaminbuckner"]I disagree, what new market, nintendo wii sales ahve been horrible for nongamer games, such as boogie that sold terribly, resident evil 4 on the other hand sold especially well, nobody wants family games like boogie.benjaminbuckner

Nintendogs, Brain Training, Wiisports - Not traditional games, opened up a new market with insane sales for each title. There will be more.

all firsty games are what you mentioned, list some third party games.

[QUOTE="ArcticSnake"]

[QUOTE="akruan"]I think that next gen every console will have a motion sensor controller. Same way every console had analog sticks and rumble after the N64. :) Also, I agree 100% with you.akruan

Check your history mate, don't want to look dumb now do you?

As for the hate, I don't really see the success rate. Though its understandable how some people can be frosty but as you said, its pretty lame to hate that aspect. Either way, I was always one of the people that couldn't figure out how people could even enjoy bashing consoles in the first place.

Why are you saying that "mate"? It was after the N64 that analog sticks became a standard in video game consoles. Also it was after the N64 that "rumble" became a standard in video games.

Nono, I mean that you need to consider that we are in System wars. One small mistake and people are going to jump on your ass and not let go for awhile. People especially love it when somebody gets history wrong. I've seen people make a small typo which pretty much threw the whole thing off. Freaking SW.

*edit*

Maybe YOU should check your history,'cause you're the one who just got self-owned.

Harden_hawk

My point exactly. A person misunderstands and jumps on you the first chance he gets. Gotta' love SW.

looking at nintendo this gen.....they are a completly different company now compared to the GC. there offering something different and my god are they supporting it. compared to last gen.....nintendo are really firing on all cylinders......there working there ass off. the DS is an amazing system with loads of brilliant games. the wii doesent really have enough top class games yet (though it certainly has some) but they will be here soon. MS and sony will certainly be taking some notes now and will hopefully work alot harder to get the markets attention. the last thing they want is to be left so far behind the wii that they become as insignificant as the Xbox and GC were last gen.

osan0

Exactly. MS and Sony want to get their consoles selling well, so they're just going to have to make them look btter than the Wii already does. So Wii success benefits all gamers. That's why the hate doesn't make sense in my view.

[QUOTE="benjaminbuckner"]I disagree, what new market, nintendo wii sales ahve been horrible for nongamer games, such as boogie that sold terribly, resident evil 4 on the other hand sold especially well, nobody wants family games like boogie.laughingman42

Boogie sucked, most games that suck dont sell well, RE4 is a good game, and good games tend to sell well.

Excellent point. And it shows that even though Nintendo is trying to broaden it's reach, the more casual gamers aren't dumb and can tell a good game from a bad one just like the rest of us. Brain Age and Boogie are both casual games, but Brain Age is the better of the two, and the sales reflect that.

WOW

A "The-Very-Best" Topic where The-Very-Best shows an opinion!?? :o

A lot of hate on Nintendo really donesn't make any sense at all, and you are right.

Here are some common myths about Nintendo that people seem to use to bash them.

1. Nintendo isn't focused on the hardcore anymore.

FACT - They have NEVER focused on only the hardcore gamer. If there was a time to disbelieve Nintendo's dedication to ALL gamers, it would have been durring the GameCube days when they barely had any games coming out. All of a sudden they have almost every single one of their core franchises out and people complain and say that they are abadoning thier core players? WTF!?

If anything, 3rd parties are going away from the hardcore on Wii, not nintendo. Nintendo is one of the few actually supporting the system.

2. Games like Wii Fit and Brain Age take away time and money from core games.

FACT - Brain Age for the DS was made by a group of no more than 5-10 people. Wii Fit is being worked on by a group of 20 people. What is everyone else working on? Super Mario Galaxy, New Zelda, Mario Kart Wii, and probably a Pikmin title in there somewhere.

3. There will be no more good games after this year because Nintendo has let the big 3 go in 1 year.

I laugh at this one a lot. Do games just stop being developed? Nintendo just bought out Monolith Soft, a REALLY talented development team. They are working on Disaster: Day of Crisis, and probably a new RPG IP. Retro Studios is probably starting work on a new IP as well. Nintendo is constantly creating new titles, they don't just come in every 2-3 years :roll:

ok, i'm done!

Nice topic and it's good to hear an opinion coming from you.

"Excellent point. And it shows that even though Nintendo is trying to broaden it's reach, the more casual gamers aren't dumb and can tell a good game from a bad one just like the rest of us. Brain Age and Boogie are both casual games, but Brain Age is the better of the two, and the sales reflect that."

And just HOW? are casual gamers going to be able to tell a good game from a bad game?.I pity the poor child whoose only birthday gift from parents is wiiplay or some other insipid Wii trash game.The hate comes from getting the hype of only innovation and plenty of good games and nextgen console from Nintendo and the truth is plenty of TRASH games and the only real innovation is a low price point that created plenty of console sales with a console that from most considerations is a GameCube with tacked on motion controls.No one likes getting ripped off by Nintendo.CAVEAT EMPTOR!

The problem is,some third-parties get the impression that the system is a dumping ground for under-developed garbage. And then there's some quality teams (Bethesda, Free Radical) who have claimed that the Wii doesn't have enough power for their games. And then there's games like Dewy's Adventure and Zack and Wiki--they look likeawesome games, but theylead people to(mistakenly) believe that Wii isonly for little kids. I just sometimes get the impression that third-parties don't take the Wii seriously.

I'm hoping some good companies will at least take a chance on an in-depth game on Wii. I want to Wiimote-whip some zombies in Castlevania, or play another 3D Mega Man. Or how about some sort of Metal Gear spin-off?

WOW

A "The-Very-Best" Topic where The-Very-Best shows an opinion!?? :o

kansasdude2009

I have an opinion on all my topics, but don't usually put it in the first post cause it can sway replies to having a manufactured opinion and I'd rather people just put in their opinions on the issues, more interesting discussion that way.

A lot of hate on Nintendo really donesn't make any sense at all, and you are right.

Here are some common myths about Nintendo that people seem to use to bash them.

1. Nintendo isn't focused on the hardcore anymore.

FACT - They have NEVER focused on only the hardcore gamer. If there was a time to disbelieve Nintendo's dedication to ALL gamers, it would have been durring the GameCube days when they barely had any games coming out. All of a sudden they have almost every single one of their core franchises out and people complain and say that they are abadoning thier core players? WTF!?

If anything, 3rd parties are going away from the hardcore on Wii, not nintendo. Nintendo is one of the few actually supporting the system.

2. Games like Wii Fit and Brain Age take away time and money from core games.

FACT - Brain Age for the DS was made by a group of no more than 5-10 people. Wii Fit is being worked on by a group of 20 people. What is everyone else working on? Super Mario Galaxy, New Zelda, Mario Kart Wii, and probably a Pikmin title in there somewhere.

kansasdude2009

Yeah, I agree with both of those. Although I would like to see Nintendo make more traditional games (since practically every 3rd party is making a casual game), you can see that Nintendo isn't focused just on one market, and we're all bound to find something we like on the Wii because of that.

I just sometimes get the impression that third-parties don't take the Wii seriously.

--ProtoMan--

I don't think they do. Yet.

When they see Nintendo dominating the Wii charts with their own quality titles like Wiisports, SMG, SSBB, Wiifit etc., then the 3rd parties will realise if they want to beat Nintendo, they're gonna have to make quality titles.

It's gonna take a while, but I think we'll get there eventually.

I agree. I have always been a supporter of competition.

This gen is going to be much more evened out, which is a great thing and will enusure more high quality games from all 3 sides.

1. Nintendo isn't focused on the hardcore anymore.

FACT - They have NEVER focused on only the hardcore gamer. If there was a time to disbelieve Nintendo's dedication to ALL gamers, it would have been durring the GameCube days when they barely had any games coming out. All of a sudden they have almost every single one of their core franchises out and people complain and say that they are abadoning thier core players? WTF!?

If anything, 3rd parties are going away from the hardcore on Wii, not nintendo. Nintendo is one of the few actually supporting the system.

kansasdude2009

I'm just going to comment on this point.

In the span from the launch of the Gamecube to the end of 2002, Nintendo released, in one territory or another, almost every single one of their major franchises on the Gamecube. Wave Race: Blue Storm, Mario Sunshine, Super Smash Bros. Melee, Metroid Prime, Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker, Pikmin, and Animal Crossing all came out during this span.

The only major Nintendo release in 2003 was when Wind Waker came out in the United States.

Just saying.

I just wish games would try to be games more often, not wannabe Scorsese directed interactive experiences.

I have an opinion on all my topics, but don't usually put it in the first post cause it can sway replies to having a manufactured opinion and I'd rather people just put in their opinions on the issues, more interesting discussion that way.

Yeah, I agree with both of those. Although I would like to see Nintendo make more traditional games (since practically every 3rd party is making a casual game), you can see that Nintendo isn't focused just on one market, and we're all bound to find something we like on the Wii because of that.

the-very-best

Yea, this is the first time I've ever seen you openly admit your opinion... it's usually -

1. New Wii data
2. could this be good or bad?
3. you decide

I like your threads because of that, it was a shocker to me when you openly said "Nintendo hate doesn't make sense" :o

Anyway, on to the bold. YYYEEESSS!!! I would love Nintendo to work on new IP's for the Wii, and funny I should mention a Monolith RPG - read this.

If true... i'm excited. WOW

oh, and as for the 3rd party... as more casual games (boogie, BBA, Cooking mama) fail to sell well (boogie and Cooking mama are both under 50,000 and BBA is under 150,000), and more hardcore titles continue to sell well (zelda = 3+ million, RE:WE = 750,000, Super Paper Mario = million +), hopefully this will change.

We will see...

"Excellent point. And it shows that even though Nintendo is trying to broaden it's reach, the more casual gamers aren't dumb and can tell a good game from a bad one just like the rest of us. Brain Age and Boogie are both casual games, but Brain Age is the better of the two, and the sales reflect that."

And just HOW? are casual gamers going to be able to tell a good game from a bad game?.I pity the poor child whoose only birthday gift from parents is wiiplay or some other insipid Wii trash game.The hate comes from getting the hype of only innovation and plenty of good games and nextgen console from Nintendo and the truth is plenty of TRASH games and the only real innovation is a low price point that created plenty of console sales with a console that from most considerations is a GameCube with tacked on motion controls.No one likes getting ripped off by Nintendo.CAVEAT EMPTOR!

RussellBurrows

I'm not really sure what your point is in there, but I'll try to respond anyway. You seem to be inferring that casual gamers are somehow too ignorant to know whether the game they are playing is fun or not. That's a little bit of an elitist point of view, in my opinion. My 70 something year old grandfather plays Pac Man on his SNES for a minimum hour and a half every day. Most people would consider him a casual gamer, but his game of choice is one of the greatest of all time. When a game is fun, it will rise to the top, no matter if it's casual or hardcore.

[QUOTE="--ProtoMan--"]

I just sometimes get the impression that third-parties don't take the Wii seriously.

the-very-best

I don't think they do. Yet.

When they see Nintendo dominating the Wii charts with their own quality titles like Wiisports, SMG, SSBB, Wiifit etc., then the 3rd parties will realise if they want to beat Nintendo, they're gonna have to make quality titles.

It's gonna take a while, but I think we'll get there eventually.

What I heard at least a few developers say was that the heavy competition from the system's first-party titles was a reason NOT to develop for the Wii, as people (especially Nintendo fans) will flock towards Mario, Zelda, Metroid etc., while new IPs have a harder time getting off the shelf.
Of course, I have yet to see a groundbreaking new third-party IP on the console, but with a broad demographic in its fanbase, I don't see why it wouldn't be worth a little investment.

Developers learned from doing DS games that low investment games at least stand a chance to re-coup the initial investment.

Developers learned that for the most part investment in high expense games for the Game Cube stood small chance of getting back the initial investment versus Nintendo games.

Is it any wonder that developers are going with the formula of low investment Wii games since if they bomb they are only risking small potatoes to begin with.Therefore I expect Wii Game Developers to stay the course. So its just the same as the Game Cube days with few Nintendo games worth playing and plenty of third party trash since the Sheep only buy Nintendo first party games.So yea I say to You verily that I am very pissed that I jumped into the Wii hype and got little in return.

Yea, this is the first time I've ever seen you openly admit your opinion... it's usually -

1. New Wii data
2. could this be good or bad?
3. you decide

I like your threads because of that, it was a shocker to me when you openly said "Nintendo hate doesn't make sense" :o

Anyway, on to the bold. YYYEEESSS!!! I would love Nintendo to work on new IP's for the Wii, and funny I should mention a Monolith RPG - read this.

If true... i'm excited. WOW

oh, and as for the 3rd party... as more casual games (boogie, BBA, Cooking mama) fail to sell well (boogie and Cooking mama are both under 50,000 and BBA is under 150,000), and more hardcore titles continue to sell well (zelda = 3+ million, RE:WE = 750,000, Super Paper Mario = million +), hopefully this will change.

We will see...

kansasdude2009

Yeah, I keep seeing too many Wii-bashing topics lately so just thought some people might be interested in another viewpoint on the issue.

Anyway, that magazine article is great! Hopefully it's true. We can definitely expect big things from those devs.

I'm actually really surprised at RE's success for the Wii. I didn't think it would sell that well at all, so it's great to see the Wii audience choosing wisely when buying titles. The only thing that I personally don't think deserves to be topping the charts is MP8...but as long as the quality titles sell well, we're definitely going to see more.

What I heard at least a few developers say was that the heavy competition from the system's first-party titles was a reason NOT to develop for the Wii, as people (especially Nintendo fans) will flock towards Mario, Zelda, Metroid etc., while new IPs have a harder time getting off the shelf.
Of course, I have yet to see a groundbreaking new third-party IP on the console, but with a broad demographic in its fanbase, I don't see why it wouldn't be worth a little investment.

IAmRodyle

And devs know that there will be a massive install base, so we're eventually going to get a great 3rd party title for the console. Even though a lot of people hate them, I think EA will be the first to make something truly groundbreaking for the console.

Boogie was a bad start, but they're a big company, and I'm sure they've got some bright ideas coming.

I'm just going to comment on this point.

In the span from the launch of the Gamecube to the end of 2002, Nintendo released, in one territory or another, almost every single one of their major franchises on the Gamecube. Wave Race: Blue Storm, Mario Sunshine, Super Smash Bros. Melee, Metroid Prime, Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker, Pikmin, and Animal Crossing all came out during this span.

The only major Nintendo release in 2003 was when Wind Waker came out in the United States.

Just saying.

sonicmj1

Sure, but this is the span of 5 months. Not to mention you are forgetting a few titles. Mario, Metroid, Smash, Fire Emblem, Battalion Wars in the span of 5 months. Then widen that to 14 months and you get to include Zelda, Paper Mario, Wario Ware, Mario Kart, and probably more. This is the fastest Nintendo has ever put out games, easily.

The people working on these titles that are released are currently working on titles for late 2008 - 2009 as well.

I disagree, what new market, nintendo wii sales ahve been horrible for nongamer games, such as boogie that sold terribly, resident evil 4 on the other hand sold especially well, nobody wants family games like boogie.benjaminbuckner

Wii Sports has already sold more than Halo 2.

I welcome the new types of games. Some of them have already been a blast to play, and I'm sure there will be more to come.

[QUOTE="sonicmj1"]

I'm just going to comment on this point.

In the span from the launch of the Gamecube to the end of 2002, Nintendo released, in one territory or another, almost every single one of their major franchises on the Gamecube. Wave Race: Blue Storm, Mario Sunshine, Super Smash Bros. Melee, Metroid Prime, Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker, Pikmin, and Animal Crossing all came out during this span.

The only major Nintendo release in 2003 was when Wind Waker came out in the United States.

Just saying.

kansasdude2009

Sure, but this is the span of 5 months. Not to mention you are forgetting a few titles. Mario, Metroid, Smash, Fire Emblem, Battalion Wars in the span of 5 months. Then widen that to 14 months and you get to include Zelda, Paper Mario, Wario Ware, Mario Kart, and probably more. This is the fastest Nintendo has ever put out games, easily.

The people working on these titles that are released are currently working on titles for late 2008 - 2009 as well.

If you reduce my span to five months, you're still looking at Sunshine, Animal Crossing, Metroid Prime, and Zelda. The span I gave you before was 14 months.

Now might be faster by a few games (or maybe I'm forgetting one or two), but it seems very comparable to me. On the Gamecube, you had Smash Bros being the major launch title, followed by Zelda, Metroid, and Mario the following holiday season. This time around, you have Zelda leading off, and Metroid, Mario, and Smash Bros coming for the following holiday season.

2003 had a delayed Zelda in the States, a delayed Metroid in Japan, and Mario Kart: Double Dash as the sole major Nintendo title that holiday season.

Seems very similar to me...

EDIT: The 2001-2 season also included Eternal Darkness, Luigi's Mansion (if you want to count it), and Star Fox Adventures. As I said, it's very close in the number of games published by Nintendo.

The only reason the Wii is successful is because it's cheap. The Wii is actually the biggest defecation on gaming since the N-Gage. highlander0659

Ah, the old price argument. If that's the only reason that the Wii is successful, then explain what happened to the Gamecube.

Yeah, I keep seeing too many Wii-bashing topics lately so just thought some people might be interested in another viewpoint on the issue.

Anyway, that magazine article is great! Hopefully it's true. We can definitely expect big things from those devs.

I'm actually really surprised at RE's success for the Wii. I didn't think it would sell that well at all, so it's great to see the Wii audience choosing wisely when buying titles. The only thing that I personally don't think deserves to be topping the charts is MP8...but as long as the quality titles sell well, we're definitely going to see more.

the-very-best

I was surprised too! And I agree with MP8, but it seems ALL nintendo titles are doomed to sell well. But I think i'm even more surprised that Nintendo would buy out Monolith Soft. just to create a 1st party team to work with Matsuno. Nintendo REALLY cares about their 1st party quality.

Also, competition for companies is ALWAYS a good thing. It's good to shake things up a bit. I think Sony was getting a bit too comfortable on top and it's good to see it change... even if I think it's time for Microsoft's dominance. But the Wii has plenty of potential and I really can't wait to see what good developers can create on it.

[QUOTE="RussellBurrows"]

"Excellent point. And it shows that even though Nintendo is trying to broaden it's reach, the more casual gamers aren't dumb and can tell a good game from a bad one just like the rest of us. Brain Age and Boogie are both casual games, but Brain Age is the better of the two, and the sales reflect that."

And just HOW? are casual gamers going to be able to tell a good game from a bad game?.I pity the poor child whoose only birthday gift from parents is wiiplay or some other insipid Wii trash game.The hate comes from getting the hype of only innovation and plenty of good games and nextgen console from Nintendo and the truth is plenty of TRASH games and the only real innovation is a low price point that created plenty of console sales with a console that from most considerations is a GameCube with tacked on motion controls.No one likes getting ripped off by Nintendo.CAVEAT EMPTOR!

Ponmop

I'm not really sure what your point is in there, but I'll try to respond anyway. You seem to be inferring that casual gamers are somehow too ignorant to know whether the game they are playing is fun or not. That's a little bit of an elitist point of view, in my opinion. My 70 something year old grandfather plays Pac Man on his SNES for a minimum hour and a half every day. Most people would consider him a casual gamer, but his game of choice is one of the greatest of all time. When a game is fun, it will rise to the top, no matter if it's casual or hardcore.

And now games say on the box how good they are or just how bad they suck?

Is there a forced education of every single casual Wii gamer that educates them on what is good and what is bad as soon as they enter a point of purchase?

No.

The casual consumer sees box after shiny box with nothing to tell them if the Wii games is a must buy or a rip-off.

And most of those wii games suck so probability dictates that the casual consumer will select a terrible Wii game and continue to get ripped-off thus creating consumer by consumer a hate for the maker of the console that in their view has bad games.

Though you can't admit that no matter how bad it might get, you'll always have developers like Suda51 who will always work to break the mold. Killer7 didn't do so hot. Did that stop Mr. Suda? No more Heroes says other wise. Plus, you have a game like that as a shining example of the whole "kiddie" arguement.

Though I feel very strongly in that if Clover was still around, we would have already seen some seriously promising titles. Then again, lets hope the ex-clover members who formed Seeds will still keep up the Clover quality tradition (which with their imagination and the Wii's controls, you know something really good is going to come out of it).