The primary cause of the 360's RROD.

Please refrain from flaming or trolling in this topic. This topic is to explain the design flaws of the 360 that caused the Red Ring of Death. Let's first look at the facts to see what they suggest.

Fact #1: Newer Xbox 360's (including those that are serviced) have a new heatsink + heatpipe for the Xenos GPU. This would strongly suggest that there were overheating problems with the Xenos. It is arguable as to whether this heatsink was truly enough to fix the issue, but many would say it was too little, too late. That could explain why newer Xbox 360's are still (less frequently) seeing RROD.

Fact #2: The 360's DVD drive rests directly above the Xenos heatsink, and creates an air channel. In independent studies, the Xenos heatsink has been shown to typically run at 70 - 80 Celsius, and peak at over 100 Celsius. The following is a diagram illustrating the airflow of an Xbox 360:

Speculation: Due to extreme and quick changes in temperature, the 360's motherboard begins to warp over time. When the Xenos begins reaching high temperatures, the difference in coefficients of thermal expansion causes the motherboard to warp, which when significant, applies stress to the BGA (Ball grid array). This can cause cracks in the solder balls, leading to failure. The following is a diagram illustrating thermal expansion coefficients, and their effect on the BGA:

What makes me support this theory as the primary cause for 360 RROD?

• Popping sounds can sometimes be heard before the 360's RROD. This would suggest failure in the BGA.
• In some cases, exposing the 360 to high temperatures would temporarily alleviate the problem (towel method). This would suggest that as the solder expands, any cracks would temporarily be alleviated.
• Cases where the 360 RROD's while playing a game are rare. Generally RROD's happen during cooldown, not during playtime which would suggest warping due to quick changes in temperature to be an issue.
• There are also fairly common issues with 'sound but no video,' for some Xbox 360's. If the 360 did not RROD, the GPU could have instead been damaged in another way.

This is not a manufacturing defect in the 360. It is a design flaw, and could have been prevented.

Let's once again delve into speculation and discuss how Microsoft could have prevented RROD. The heatsink on the Xenos is awfully small, and rests directly underneath the DVD drive. If the 360 did not have the 'inhale,' the motherboard could be slightly lower, and the DVD drive could be slightly higher. A better heatsink could then have been applied, instead of having to resort to heatpipe technology.

I'm done explaining my case. I hope you enjoyed my dissertation.

As a final addendum, it is likely that all RRODs are not caused for the same reason. This does not explain all cases for RROD, only the primary one.

Didn't you make another topic like this before?

But anyways, I think the best way to avoid RROD is to simply keep it cool. I used to keep my 360 under a desk in the corner of the room. It used to heat up like crazy, but this was before I knew about the whole RROD thing. When it finally did get red ring and got it repaired, I kept it out in the open and made sure not to let it heat up to much.

Haven't had a problem since.

[QUOTE="Tiefster"]I think the primary cause of most current RRoD problems is human error. Before playing Halo 3 with some buddies today, my friend's 360 RRoDed when a controller was plugged into the USB port but was fine when it wasn't plugged in. Honestly, weirdest thing I've ever seen.AmyMizuno

I dont think any of the hardware is being permantly damaged, other wise you wouldnt have many people including myself, that were abe to fix their 360s on their own.

EDIT: Also if its being warped in one direction by heat why would increasing heat some how effect the console to warp back to the original state (towel trick).

I think this is a very neat thread, and great articulate post.

Ive never seen such a comprehensive post about one of gamings great ailments in SW. This could help some users. Thanks.

So you have said and got proven wrong. Say NO to SW clutter.Immortal_Evil

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/microsoft/microsoft-adding-extra-gpu-cooling-to-retail-xbox-360-elites-284405.php

Meh, they should of made it liquid nitrogen cooled, or at the very least water. Well tbh if modders could put a Tuniq Tower 120 in it i think it would stop it 100% for about $50angelkimne

Would you happen to know if the infamous towel trick does anything to the console itself? Ive never really understood the towel trick, then again, Ive never had the RROD, ever.

EDIT: I had the 360 since Feb 2006, but it broke due to the disc drive not opening, and I had to exchange it for one in December of 2006.

Would you happen to know if the infamous towel trick does anything to the console itself? Ive never really understood the towel trick, then again, Ive never had the RROD, ever.ImSwordMan

The towel trick is basically some RRoDs are caused by the warping of Mobo, causing the graphic chip to unseat from its housing. Wrapping the towel around the X360 and prevent it's cooling will cause it to heat, rewarping the MoBo back to its original setting, causing the chip to reseat into its housing. This is only a temporary solution and as you imagine, only work if your chip is unseated and won't work for other cause of RRoD. Sooner or later, you still have to send the machine in to get a permanant fix.

[QUOTE="StryderK"]

[QUOTE="ImSwordMan"]Would you happen to know if the infamous towel trick does anything to the console itself? Ive never really understood the towel trick, then again, Ive never had the RROD, ever.AmyMizuno

The towel trick is basically some RRoDs are caused by the warping of Mobo, causing the graphic chip to unseat from its housing. Wrapping the towel around the X360 and prevent it's cooling will cause it to heat, rewarping the MoBo back to its original setting, causing the chip to reseat into its housing. This is only a temporary solution and as you imagine, only work if your chip is unseated and won't work for other cause of RRoD. Sooner or later, you still have to send the machine in to get a permanant fix.

I'm not a tech guy so I really don't know how it works but that's what I heard from a fellow co-workers. One of the big reason for the RRoD is overheating (Undercooling of the graphic chip as pointed out from your diagram), which causes stress on the GC, warping its housing at the least. this causes the chip to eventually not seat properly. Overheating will cause the housing to expand again and cause the chip to reseat on the housing. At least, this is how I understood it.

But no matter what, I agree with you that the towel method is not recommended especially if your warranty is not up yet. It's simply too dangerous to overheat the console to that kind of magatude. You may just fix one issue and broke another!

how can heat warp the board? you guys do know that the board is made from silica right? you do know that silica melts at
2300+ degrees it would need much more heat then the 360 is capable of to warp the board.
in reality the board in the is all ready warped how its seated in the case, the soder is what softens thus losening stuff from the board.WilliamRLBaker

I'm not a tech guy and even I know this!

Heat causes stuff to expand, whether silica, steel, iron, alumimum or whatever! Any metallic stuff, even expose to heat in the summer, will expand, even if it's only 1 or 2 millimeters!

Now the mobo on the X360 may not melt and may not even expand that much. But over time, due to constant stress of, "Expand several mm due to heat, the cool down too quickly and have to contract again", it will eventually not be able to contract to it's correct shape to seat the chip properly and cause a RRoD. It doesn't take too much, all it take is only 100 degrees or so and 1-2 years of constant streaching and contracting. Imagine if some one pull your arm, not even at great strength. Doing it once or twice may not do much, but constantly for say a day or two, eventually your arm will just fall off due to the constant stress! This is what's happening here!

Just a neat fact, before the concorde was retired, did you know it streches as much as 6inches while in flight? Yep! Due to the heat, it's titanium skin streches that much while in flight. It doesn't melt, but that much will do that to you. SR-71 is even worse! It actually LEAK fuel while on the ground because of all the specially cut cracks in it! These cracks will be filled in flight when it's titianum skin streches into place due to the heat. This is also why old railroad tracks has all these cracks in the rails after a certain distance. This is so in the summer heat, when the steel expand due to the heat, it will have a place to go or else the expansion will cause the tracks to warp and bend out of shape!

Speaking of the towel trick...

[QUOTE="StryderK"]

[QUOTE="ImSwordMan"]Would you happen to know if the infamous towel trick does anything to the console itself? Ive never really understood the towel trick, then again, Ive never had the RROD, ever.AmyMizuno

The towel trick is basically some RRoDs are caused by the warping of Mobo, causing the graphic chip to unseat from its housing. Wrapping the towel around the X360 and prevent it's cooling will cause it to heat, rewarping the MoBo back to its original setting, causing the chip to reseat into its housing. This is only a temporary solution and as you imagine, only work if your chip is unseated and won't work for other cause of RRoD. Sooner or later, you still have to send the machine in to get a permanant fix.

Please do so, its confusing me now :?

[QUOTE="StryderK"]

I'm not a tech guy so I really don't know how it works but that's what I heard from a fellow co-workers. One of the big reason for the RRoD is overheating (Undercooling of the graphic chip as pointed out from your diagram), which causes stress on the GC, warping its housing at the least. this causes the chip to eventually not seat properly. Overheating will cause the housing to expand again and cause the chip to reseat on the housing. At least, this is how I understood it.

But no matter what, I agree with you that the towel method is not recommended especially if your warranty is not up yet. It's simply too dangerous to overheat the console to that kind of magatude. You may just fix one issue and broke another!

AmyMizuno

How to fix RROD: (This is a joke, please do not attempt under any circumstance)

Preheat your oven to 350F
Place 360 in oven and let it bake for 15 minutes
Take it out, problem solved!

You may think I'm joking, but this would have the same effect as the towel method. In normal operating procedures the 360 can reach 100C. I wouldn't want to imagine how hot it is inside of a towel...

Actually around 250 degrees. Some one actually did measure it whiel using the towel trick and posted on the web.

Again, NOT recommended, especially if you forget and remove the towel too quickly and cause the X360 to cool down too fast....That's the fastest ticket to break the machine even more since the "expansion then fast retraction" is what's breaking the machine too fast!

[QUOTE="WilliamRLBaker"]lol *laughs hard* mother board warping? i guess then the tempatures inside the 360 must reach 2730 since most silicia based products *such as semiconductors mother boards...ect* dont melt till that tempature. but keep believeing that amy.

*shakes head*AmyMizuno

Your argument is similar to the 9/11 conspiracy theorists who say the temperature wasn't enough to cause the world trade center to collapse. Your argument, as is theirs, is false.

yeah it does not have to get that hot to warp. Its to do with the particles in the metal expanding due to heat, which therefore changes the motherboards shape.

[QUOTE="ImSwordMan"][QUOTE="AmyMizuno"][QUOTE="StryderK"]

The towel trick is basically some RRoDs are caused by the warping of Mobo, causing the graphic chip to unseat from its housing. Wrapping the towel around the X360 and prevent it's cooling will cause it to heat, rewarping the MoBo back to its original setting, causing the chip to reseat into its housing. This is only a temporary solution and as you imagine, only work if your chip is unseated and won't work for other cause of RRoD. Sooner or later, you still have to send the machine in to get a permanant fix.

AmyMizuno

Please do so, its confusing me now :?

That makes is slighly better to understand thanks.

That or im to tired to comprehend this now :P

[QUOTE="AmyMizuno"]

[QUOTE="WilliamRLBaker"]lol *laughs hard* mother board warping? i guess then the tempatures inside the 360 must reach 2730 since most silicia based products *such as semiconductors mother boards...ect* dont melt till that tempature. but keep believeing that amy.

*shakes head*NinjaMunkey01

Your argument is similar to the 9/11 conspiracy theorists who say the temperature wasn't enough to cause the world trade center to collapse. Your argument, as is theirs, is false.

yeah it does not have to get that hot to warp. Its to do with the particles in the metal expanding due to heat, which therefore changes the motherboards shape.

Yep! As I've said in my post, planes like the Concorde and SR-71 expand all too easily when in flight, Concorde six inches and the SR as much as a foot! However, those planes have taken this in mind and have ways to allow this (SR-71 cracks in the airframe that leak fuel while on the ground for ex.). Same thing with old rail road tracks. There are cracks sliced right into the tracks so in the summer heat, the rail expansion will have places to go.

The problem with the X360 heat problem is that the expansion of the Mobo isn't severe. It's just several mm sometimes but this is more than enough to kill it! Because over time, due to the constant strain of, "Expand, retract quickly, expand, retract quickly", it will eventually warp and bend the mobo out of shape because of the constant stress! It doesn't take 1000 degree heat all at once to do it. All it takes is just 100 degress and at most two years of constant playing to do it!

[QUOTE="StryderK"][QUOTE="AmyMizuno"][QUOTE="StryderK"]

I'm not a tech guy so I really don't know how it works but that's what I heard from a fellow co-workers. One of the big reason for the RRoD is overheating (Undercooling of the graphic chip as pointed out from your diagram), which causes stress on the GC, warping its housing at the least. this causes the chip to eventually not seat properly. Overheating will cause the housing to expand again and cause the chip to reseat on the housing. At least, this is how I understood it.

But no matter what, I agree with you that the towel method is not recommended especially if your warranty is not up yet. It's simply too dangerous to overheat the console to that kind of magatude. You may just fix one issue and broke another!

AmyMizuno

How to fix RROD: (This is a joke, please do not attempt under any circumstance)

Preheat your oven to 350F
Place 360 in oven and let it bake for 15 minutes
Take it out, problem solved!

You may think I'm joking, but this would have the same effect as the towel method. In normal operating procedures the 360 can reach 100C. I wouldn't want to imagine how hot it is inside of a towel...

Actually around 250 degrees. Some one actually did measure it whiel using the towel trick and posted on the web.

Again, NOT recommended, especially if you forget and remove the towel too quickly and cause the X360 to cool down too fast....That's the fastest ticket to break the machine even more since the "expansion then fast retraction" is what's breaking the machine too fast!

ACtually, the parts in the X360 can resist even higher heat, for all the obvious reasons....But the thing is, as I've pointed out, isn't high heat, it's the expansion that the heat causes, no matter how small. Over time, due to constant stress, it will break it. Now imagine if some one heated up the X360 with the towel trick to that high, wait about 15 minutes for the chip to set or whatever the solution suppose to be, then turn the machine off and immediatly remove the towel......The rapid cooldown will instantly cause the parts inside to retract very quickly!!!! This is what's gonna break things! Not the heat, but the physical nature of metal reaction, "Heat expand and cold retract!"

I do have a question though. The power supply AKA The Brick. We all know the power suppy is one big ugly mo'fo. When the 360 launched and RRoDs were occurring, the biggest theory to prevent it from overheating was suspending the brick from your cieling while attached to a pair of strings.

Now is it due to the fact that the power supply is poorly designed or is it just a myth entirely?