This is a thread about graphics

Hi. This is a thread about graphics, consoles, and the PC. You have probably heard of, more likely seen, and maybe even have played a game called Crysis. Stunning, beautifully, etc. While fans of the PS3 make gross overestimations of their hardware, 360 fans count their superior multiplats, and sheep feign interest in graphics outside of the advent of the 3DS, games like Crysis are always looming around the corner to "invalidate" whatever graphical claims PS3 and 360 can make. I'm here to tell you that Crysis doesn't matter. No really.

Consoles and the PC are not competing for graphics. That's right, there is no competition. That is because they are entirely different entities. PC is a constantly changing, nebulous existence that exists from anything to playing Crysis to checking your bank account. The ability of the PC to transform, replace it's parts, and progress as far as humans are capable makes it the perfect candidate for developers who want to push graphical envelopes and create games with stunning realism to wow and inspire.

Consoles, however, are different. They have set limitations. They only exist in one form. The most they can hope for is some sort of RAM extension like with the N64, but as far as I know there hasn't been anything of the like for the past 10 years. When console graphics impress, it is about the ability of developers to work with the restrictions of their platform.Which is why Saturn Shenmue, is imo, just as impressive as any Crysis screen.

Crysis is competing with other PC games. It's not competing with consoles. Agree? Disagree?

I don't care whether they compete with consoles or not. Being able to play PC games with the latest hardware is a PC advantage and it's why some people choose the PC > consoles. It shouldn't be ignored, PC game on highest settings is fine being compared to console games, which are always on highest setting.

Anyway, SW already created "console graphics king" to compare the consoles. I know what you mean though, considering the age and limitations of the consoles, they have produced some amazing visuals, and it will continue to improve despite being on the same old hardware.

Proof that resolution doesn't matter:

These still look like Street Fighter characters to me, despite the low resolution.

It's not competing directly as, naturally, it is in another league. Before anyone jumps down my throat about being elitist, I'm just stating that something with modern, upgradeable hardware is bound to be objectively "better" than a static set of components.

The only reason it is thrown around here so much is certain console-centric posters make heinous claims that, as per on the Internet, need to be corrected, by someone. So yeah, I would agree with you, at the console's standard of hardware, the graphics produced is determined by developer skill moreso than if a game was on the PC, as the console developers have a much lower processing "power ceiling" to work under. The fact that consoles can even look remotely close to PC gaming is really impressive. Unfortunately the constant bickering will never cease.-Feath-

That's not elitism, just logic and reason. I don't think anyone would try to claim otherwise.

I think things can be ridiculous on both sides.

and this is why Graphics are Overrated.

I don't care whether they compete with consoles or not. Being able to play PC games with the latest hardware is a PC advantage and it's why some people choose the PC > consoles. It shouldn't be ignored, PC game on highest settings is fine being compared to console games, which are always on highest setting.

SaltyMeatballs

Naturally.

-_-

Sh4nk3r

No, no, no, you've done it WRONG. Here, you do it like this

Seriously, this wouldn't happen if consolites stopped arguing.

@SaltyMeatballs

Those are SF characters 0_o?

Pictures of Crysis

N30F3N1X

I think you may have missed the point.

I haven't ever seen the saturn shenmue screens before, they are really impressive thinking back to everything else released on it.

[QUOTE="Sh4nk3r"]

-_-

N30F3N1X

Those are SF characters 0_o?

I haven't ever seen the saturn shenmue screens before, they are really impressive thinking back to everything else released on it.

SapSacPrime

Watch the video. It's more impressive than the screens.

Worst logic ever.

If we cease to be impressed by new and evolving technology, and are only impressed by what we did with old limitations, there would never be new games or advances. Crysis wouldn't exist if people were just as happy playing pong.

[QUOTE="N30F3N1X"]

[QUOTE="Sh4nk3r"]

-_-

SaltyMeatballs

Those are SF characters 0_o?

Do we really have to quote that obnoxious image over and over again?

Well, I do agree with the thing that the developers have to work with consoles "limitations" and it makes you go: "Wooooow!", when they succeed on this.

But on PC, theres always something to upgrade, more money to use on something and after you have used hundreds of dollars on one component, the game might, or might not work better with it... and if not, you'll have to lower the graphics and make them look less good and this makes you unsatisfied, since you just paid to get better performance on higher graphics and it still didn't work they way you wanted. There's no such thing on console. Everything works perfectly - if it's done right.

Worst logic ever.

If we cease to be impressed by new and evolving technology, there would never be new games or advances. Crysis wouldn't exist if people were just as happy playing pong.

Vaasman

My point isn't that we shouldn't be impressed by PC games. My logic is that PC doesn't mean we can't be impressed by console games.

Do we really have to quote that obnoxious image over and over again?

hakanakumono

Collateral damage 8)

[QUOTE="-Feath-"]It's not competing directly as, naturally, it is in another league. Before anyone jumps down my throat about being elitist, I'm just stating that something with modern, upgradeable hardware is bound to be objectively "better" than a static set of components.

The only reason it is thrown around here so much is certain console-centric posters make heinous claims that, as per on the Internet, need to be corrected, by someone. So yeah, I would agree with you, at the console's standard of hardware, the graphics produced is determined by developer skill moreso than if a game was on the PC, as the console developers have a much lower processing "power ceiling" to work under. The fact that consoles can even look remotely close to PC gaming is really impressive. Unfortunately the constant bickering will never cease.hakanakumono

That's not elitism, just logic and reason. I don't think anyone would try to claim otherwise.

I think things can be ridiculous on both sides.

My point isn't that we shouldn't be impressed by PC games. My logic is that PC doesn't mean we can't be impressed by console games.

hakanakumono

Would you be more impressed by looking at the sky, or by looking at a picture of it?

The obsession with graphics is a bit depressing, some of the best games look like crap and no-one will give them a chance because the explosions don't have the right amount of deferred lighting, or whatever.-Feath-

For me, if the game has amazing graphics, but awful gameplay, the whole game seems kinda bad and not that enjoyable.
Same thing goes with the opposite, not so good graphics but good gameplay, makes more likely an enjoyable gaming experience.

Of course, there's other things as well, such as music, sound effects, voice acting, story and so on.

[QUOTE="Vaasman"]

Worst logic ever.

If we cease to be impressed by new and evolving technology, there would never be new games or advances. Crysis wouldn't exist if people were just as happy playing pong.

hakanakumono

My point isn't that we shouldn't be impressed by PC games. My logic is that PC doesn't mean we can't be impressed by console games.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

My point isn't that we shouldn't be impressed by PC games. My logic is that PC doesn't mean we can't be impressed by console games.

N30F3N1X

Would you be more impressed by looking at the sky, or by looking at a picture of it?

Your comparison doesn't make any sense.

Console graphics are impressive because of the hardware barriers they're able to overcome. The reason why Saturn Shenmue is impressive is because it was not only able to do full 3D in a system that was a mess of a design, where it was thought almost "impossible" for it to be attainable, but exceed the capabilities of all of the consoles at the current time. It was never released, but it existed in beta form.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="Vaasman"]

Worst logic ever.

If we cease to be impressed by new and evolving technology, there would never be new games or advances. Crysis wouldn't exist if people were just as happy playing pong.

Vaasman

My point isn't that we shouldn't be impressed by PC games. My logic is that PC doesn't mean we can't be impressed by console games.

I'm not suggesting it's "more impressive." Like I said, they're not in competition. And again, I'm not suggesting we don't make progress. I'm not suggesting the PC doesn't matter. I'm not suggesting improvements in graphics don't matter.

Consoles don't continue to achieve better graphics just because of progress in the capabilities of developers. FFVIII should tell you that Square was able to do far better things artistically than they could put in their games in the PS1 era. I'm talking about the ability of developers to work with restrictions.

I don't care whether they compete with consoles or not. Being able to play PC games with the latest hardware is a PC advantage and it's why some people choose the PC > consoles. It shouldn't be ignored, PC game on highest settings is fine being compared to console games, which are always on highest setting.

Anyway, SW already created "console graphics king" to compare the consoles. I know what you mean though, considering the age and limitations of the consoles, they have produced some amazing visuals, and it will continue to improve despite being on the same old hardware.

Proof that resolution doesn't matter:

These still look like Street Fighter characters to me, despite the low resolution.

SaltyMeatballs

Thats so awesome, Ryu, Honda, Blanka, Guile, Ken Chun Li, Zangief and Dhalsim ... do i win something ?.

[QUOTE="Vaasman"]

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

My point isn't that we shouldn't be impressed by PC games. My logic is that PC doesn't mean we can't be impressed by console games.

hakanakumono

I'm not suggesting it's "more impressive." Like I said, they're not in competition. And again, I'm not suggesting we don't make progress. I'm not suggesting the PC doesn't matter. I'm not suggesting improvements in graphics don't matter.

You are suggesting they are equally impressive, which they are not. Shenmue would only be impressive 10 years ago.

Your comparison doesn't make any sense.

hakanakumono

That so?

You raise your head, you see the constantly changing cloud shapes, lightning, the various sunrise and twilight colors figmentations, then you start wondering about what you would be able to see if you got higher. The only limit is your imagination, and your eyes' FoV lol.

Then, you look at a picture. Wow, it looks amazing. Although...it kind of loses that "OMG" feeling because it does not give you an idea of the sheer scale that you know exists outside of the picture. Then you look at it again. It's still the same. And the same. And the same once again. Until that "wow" factor fades away.

Let's see your logic, instead. Since it's obvious that a professional runner will always run faster than a wheelchair racer, we should be impressed by how fast the wheelchair racer goes, while breaking world records means nothing.

Seems to me that mine makes much more sense, sir.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="Vaasman"]Why is it more impressive to develop on heavily established platforms versus constantly evolving platforms? Any capable modern developer could make an amazing looking super nintendo game, but it would still look annoyingly dated by modern standards. If we don't embrace new developments, you get stuck on stupid, dated tech, and thus Move and Kinect were born.

Vaasman

I'm not suggesting it's "more impressive." Like I said, they're not in competition. And again, I'm not suggesting we don't make progress. I'm not suggesting the PC doesn't matter. I'm not suggesting improvements in graphics don't matter.

You are suggesting they are equally impressive, which they are not. Shenmue would only be impressive 10 years ago.

Crysis is impressive because it's able to achieve near realism. Shenmue is impressive because it's able to push the envelope far beyond what was thought possible on the Saturn.

They're impressive for different reasons. That's what I'm trying to get at.

[QUOTE="SaltyMeatballs"]

I don't care whether they compete with consoles or not. Being able to play PC games with the latest hardware is a PC advantage and it's why some people choose the PC > consoles. It shouldn't be ignored, PC game on highest settings is fine being compared to console games, which are always on highest setting.

Anyway, SW already created "console graphics king" to compare the consoles. I know what you mean though, considering the age and limitations of the consoles, they have produced some amazing visuals, and it will continue to improve despite being on the same old hardware.

Proof that resolution doesn't matter:

sf picture

These still look like Street Fighter characters to me, despite the low resolution.

Snugenz

Thats so awesome, Ryu, Honda, Blanka, Guile, Ken Chun Li, Zangief and Dhalsim ... do i win something ?.

I was not able to guess chun li and dhalsim. nice picture though :P

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

Your comparison doesn't make any sense.

N30F3N1X

That so?

You raise your head, you see the constantly changing cloud shapes, lightning, the various sunrise and twilight colors figmentations, then you start wondering about what you would be able to see if you got higher. The only limit is your imagination, and your eyes' FoV lol.

Then, you look at a picture. Wow, it looks amazing. Although...it kind of loses that "OMG" feeling because it does not give you an idea of the sheer scale that you know exists outside of the picture. Then you look at it again. It's still the same. And the same. And the same once again. Until that "wow" factor fades away.

Let's see your logic, instead. Since it's obvious that a professional runner will always run faster than a wheelchair racer, we should be impressed by how fast the wheelchair racer goes, while breaking world records means nothing.

Seems to me that mine makes much more sense, sir.

You're comparing the interpretation of natural phenomenon in the human eye vs. an interpreation of natural phenomenon via a machine and comparing that to the capabilities of machines to reconstruct phenomenon through computer graphics. Moreover, photographs are usually impressive because of their artistic merit. PC isn't "the sky."

We're not allowed to be impressed by those who are able to overcome adversity and physical barriers?

[QUOTE="Vaasman"]

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

I'm not suggesting it's "more impressive." Like I said, they're not in competition. And again, I'm not suggesting we don't make progress. I'm not suggesting the PC doesn't matter. I'm not suggesting improvements in graphics don't matter.

hakanakumono

You are suggesting they are equally impressive, which they are not. Shenmue would only be impressive 10 years ago.

Crysis is impressive because it's able to achieve near realism. Shenmue is impressive because it's able to push the envelope far beyond what was thought possible on the Saturn.

They're impressive for different reasons. That's what I'm trying to get at.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="Vaasman"]"Which is why Saturn Shenmue, is imo, just as impressive as any Crysis screen."

You are suggesting they are equally impressive, which they are not. Shenmue would only be impressive 10 years ago.

Vaasman

Crysis is impressive because it's able to achieve near realism. Shenmue is impressive because it's able to push the envelope far beyond what was thought possible on the Saturn.

They're impressive for different reasons. That's what I'm trying to get at.

No, it would be near impossible for them to overcome the hardware of the Saturn. It would take extremely talented developers to try to work on anything even close to Shenmue on the Saturn to this day, and it would probably take them years to get to a point where they could start creating such a game.

I don't think you're understanding. Developers during the PS1 and Saturn era could develop graphics far better than what they were able to on their respective platforms. Square was able to produce graphics on par with FFXIII in 1999. Just see FFVIII FMV. It's not just about "budget" and "resources," it's about overcoming the platform.

The thing is not all gaming PCs out in the wild have hardware far more advanced than consoles. There are plenty of people using single core/low-end dual core processors and old 7800 GTs, who nonetheless still play games on their PCs. When people talk about PC being in another league from consoles, this is true only for a relatively small segment of the PC gaming population.

Some people say PC gaming is all about 1080p -- yet Steam's recent survey indicates most PC gamers play at 1280x1024 non-widescreen resolution.

Some people say PC gaming is all about DX10 and 11 -- yet Steam's recent survey indicates most PC gamers still use Windows XP 32-bit.

So yes, theoretically, the PC is always equal to or more advanced than current consoles. But PCs range from $250 Eee PCs and mini-Desktops to $3000 monsters. It's not always clear which hardware people are referring to when we use generic terms like "PC gaming".

[QUOTE="Vaasman"]

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

Crysis is impressive because it's able to achieve near realism. Shenmue is impressive because it's able to push the envelope far beyond what was thought possible on the Saturn.

They're impressive for different reasons. That's what I'm trying to get at.

hakanakumono

No, it would be near impossible for them to overcome the hardware of the Saturn. It would take extremely talented developers to try to work on anything even close to Shenmue on the Saturn to this day, and it would probably take them years to get to a point where they could start creating such a game.

I don't think you're understanding. Developers during the PS1 and Saturn era could develop graphics far better than what they were able to on their respective platforms. Square was able to produce graphics on par with FFXIII in 1999. Just see FFVIII FMV. It's not just about "budget" and "resources," it's about overcoming the platform.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="Vaasman"]Shenmue was impressive 10 years ago. Today, it isn't, because any half-baked developer could make a good looking saturn game, given modern developing tools and resources. Shenmue's graphics would only be impressive if they held up to modern standards.

Vaasman

No, it would be near impossible for them to overcome the hardware of the Saturn. It would take extremely talented developers to try to work on anything even close to Shenmue on the Saturn to this day, and it would probably take them years to get to a point where they could start creating such a game.

I don't think you're understanding. Developers during the PS1 and Saturn era could develop graphics far better than what they were able to on their respective platforms. Square was able to produce graphics on par with FFXIII in 1999. Just see FFVIII FMV. It's not just about "budget" and "resources," it's about overcoming the platform.

Square was perfectly capable of rendering models of very high quality back with the PS1. I did make a bit of an exaggeration, but their capabilities back then weren't far behind what they are now.

[QUOTE="Vaasman"]

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

No, it would be near impossible for them to overcome the hardware of the Saturn. It would take extremely talented developers to try to work on anything even close to Shenmue on the Saturn to this day, and it would probably take them years to get to a point where they could start creating such a game.

I don't think you're understanding. Developers during the PS1 and Saturn era could develop graphics far better than what they were able to on their respective platforms. Square was able to produce graphics on par with FFXIII in 1999. Just see FFVIII FMV. It's not just about "budget" and "resources," it's about overcoming the platform.

hakanakumono

Square was perfectly capable of rendering models of very high quality back with the PS1.

Edit: That's also assuming you ignore the horrendous drop in resolution.

[QUOTE="N30F3N1X"]

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

My point isn't that we shouldn't be impressed by PC games. My logic is that PC doesn't mean we can't be impressed by console games.

hakanakumono

Would you be more impressed by looking at the sky, or by looking at a picture of it?

Your comparison doesn't make any sense.

Console graphics are impressive because of the hardware barriers they're able to overcome. The reason why Saturn Shenmue is impressive is because it was not only able to do full 3D in a system that was a mess of a design, where it was thought almost "impossible" for it to be attainable, but exceed the capabilities of all of the consoles at the current time. It was never released, but it existed in beta form.

They are not really impressive.

When you break it down to tech you see they have just taken away certain things and added other stuff.

It's more an effect on smoke and mirrors.

Sure some games can be impressive from an artistic standpoint but hardly so from tech.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="Vaasman"]Final fantasy 8 is not on par with final fantasy 13 graphically........

Vaasman

Square was perfectly capable of rendering models of very high quality back with the PS1.

You implied that improvements on consoles are graphics and resources and they could develop far better looking PS1 games just because of greater graphics and resources.

My point is that their capabilites have always been far beyond what is capable on respective systems. Improvements in graphics don't just come from increased skill in modeling and more resources, but skillfull programming and creative solutions.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="Vaasman"]Final fantasy 8 is not on par with final fantasy 13 graphically........

Vaasman

Square was perfectly capable of rendering models of very high quality back with the PS1.

Edit: That's also assuming you ignore the horrendous drop in resolution.

A system has limitation so no matter of skill will give it more power, but skill can optimize a game and use only the necessary things needed.

FF VIII wasn't that great even for it's time, technically that is. Artistically it was great, especially the Garden battle scene.

Except for the fact that when people start claiming something looks better than Crysis, consoles are elevated into a position to get smoked by the PC.

Well,you already know what I think Haka,PC is a system and being upgradeable is one of it´s many advantages and it shouldn´t be shunned because of that,so yes,I think the PC counts when comparing graphics.

Also,Crysis FTW!:P

[QUOTE="Vaasman"]

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

Square was perfectly capable of rendering models of very high quality back with the PS1.

Hakkai007

Edit: That's also assuming you ignore the horrendous drop in resolution.

A system has limitation so no matter of skill will give it more power, but skill can optimize a game and use only the necessary things needed.

FF VIII wasn't that great even for it's time, technically that is. Artistically it was great, especially the Garden battle scene.

Right, no amount of skill will give a console more power. But skill can utilize and harness that power and that can be impressive in itself.

FFVIII was pretty good for 1999 imo.

Well,you already know what I think Haka,PC is a system and being upgradeable is one of it´s many advantages and it shouldn´t be shunned because of that,so yes,I think the PC counts when comparing graphics.s.

Also,Crysis FTW!:P

Arach666

I'm not saying that it doesn't count. I'm saying that console graphics shouldn't be compared with PC graphics because they're entirely different situations and console graphics and PC graphics can be impressive for different reasons.

Except for the fact that when people start claiming something looks better than Crysis, consoles are elevated into a position to get smoked by the PC.

Silverbond

Stupid comparisons are stupid comparisons.

Graphics are what they are. They mean different things to different people. Some can't play games without great graphics, some don't care about them at all, and some seem to think it brings greater value to games, some get a false sense of arrogance about them, and some think they are comparable across different platforms.

Example of the last part of my last sentence: Some posters think that if SMG2 was on a different platform, it would receive a lower score because of graphical inferiority and higher standards of other systems, I disagree. I think it would still receive the same score on any system because of the superior game design and game controls.

Am i seeing some one who is trying to use logic in SW ??

On topic: that's great way to put it, but i believe WE ALL KNOW THAT ALREADY, it's the fanboys from both sides who mix things up, and for the record, i belive there is always some fanboyism in everyone of us, you can't be 100% fair.

[QUOTE="Silverbond"]

Except for the fact that when people start claiming something looks better than Crysis, consoles are elevated into a position to get smoked by the PC.

hakanakumono

Stupid comparisons are stupid comparisons.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="Silverbond"]

Except for the fact that when people start claiming something looks better than Crysis, consoles are elevated into a position to get smoked by the PC.

Vaasman

Stupid comparisons are stupid comparisons.

Why?

[QUOTE="Vaasman"]

All graphics comparisons are stupid comparisons.

hakanakumono

Why?