Video Game Mythbusters Episode 2: Natal and hardcore games

Hello, this is the second episode of my Video Game Mythbusters Series. I don't have a lot of time though so don't expect to see another one soon.

Myth: Natal has no real benefit for hardcore games.

I'll tell you.

I've seen a lot of threads recently about Natal, most people just simply don't understand how it could be used effectively in a "hardcore" game. You know, games like Halo, Gears of War, Half life and many more. So in this thread, I'm going to try to explain how it could very beneficial to to all games, especially story driven first person games like The Elder Scrolls and Half-Life. We all know how the Wiimote works and Sony's Motion Sensitive Controller looks to work the same way. But how does Natal work and what could it do to make Halo better?

Natal is made up of four major components. The RGB camera, depth camera, microphone, and a built-in processor to do all the calculations. Natal allows your XBOX360 to see and hear you, without ever slowing it down. OK, so now we know how it works. Now what can it do for our games?

Voice recognition. This will allow you to communicate verbally with characters in your game instead of entering text in a GUI. Giving you an even more immersive experience. But of course we could already do this with a headset. So what else can Natal do?

Head-tracking(of course Natal can track your body too). So whats so special about tracking your head anyway? By tracking your head movements, Natal can track where your head is in relation to your TV at all times. This allows your 360 to render the world in relation to your head instead of the center of the screen or some other fixed point in space. It also allows the characters in your games to see you and even react to your facial expressions. In other words it allows your 360 to give you a 3D experience like you've never seen before.

If Natal can track your head and body, it should also be able to track inanimate objects. The XBOX360 controller is not motion sensitive, but what if Natal can track your controller too. It can allow sixaxis like control in games. For example in a Baseball game instead of acting like your holding Baseball bat, you could hold a real Baseball bat or a Fisher Price toy! Or, on a more serious note the developer could bundle in a peripheral. And because it would not require electronics, it would be cheap to produce and could be included for free.

So what do you get when you combine all of that together? You get something like Milo. A game where the characters can hear you, speak to you, see you, and interpret your expressions, They know when you're avoiding eye contact and will even know when your checking them out. Imagine playing TES4;Oblivion and instead of choosing between text on the screen to talk to people, you just walk up(using your controller) and say hi(using your mouth). It would be so immersive and creepy.

CONCLUSION

Myth: Natal has no real benefit for hardcore games.
Status: BUSTED.

Natal is useful to hardcore games and hopefully you all will agree the this myth is Busted and needs to be put to rest.

I highly suggest you watch these videos as they are my sources for this thread.

Headtracking
Natal
Milo

I can't find the video where they confirmed that there was a processor inside Natal, if i do find it I'll update the thread.

As I said earlier this is the second episode. You can find the first episode HERE.

BTW, I made this thread before, but it got locked before anyone could see it. At the time there was a sticky, and I failed to see it because I was writing this thread as it was posted. If you would like to see the original post, here's the LINK.

ALSO, IF YOU HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS FOR FUTURE VIDEO GAME MYTHBUSTERS EPISODES, PLEASE TELL ME!

all they have to do is bring out a game where you can kiss people and it will be a best seller

It's not busted until they actually implement Natal with hardcore games. At least the very same we've been playing. In theory it does sound good but it's up to the developers to use the technology in that very way. Nobody knows if that's going to happen yet because there is no physical example of a game hardcore gamers would like to play with Natal technology. If it happens, then yes, I believe Natal will give something more to experience for gaming from then on. Yet I know I had a lot of heart set for with the Wii and it's produced very little for hardcore gamers. Note, I said little and not any.

@mirriorman

Hahaha that sounds like a great idea! Maybe that's what RARE's working on. No wonder they canceled PD2 and Kameo 2.

"Hardcore" is a term I really hate. What the hell does that even mean?PannicAtack

"Hardcore" is a term I really hate. What the hell does that even mean?PannicAtack

The term is thrown around a lot, but I think "casual" games would be described as games like Wii Sports, Wii Fit, (not taking shots at the Wii, those are just easy examples), and "hardcore" games are games that aren't simple games that you can just play in little 15 minute bursts. Online shooters, RPGs, MMORPGs, etc. Hope that brings some clarity. Not sure if it is even correct, but it is my interpretation.

So you busted a myth on speculation alone?

I see this time and time again from people defending Natal. They mention a controller despite MS clearly selling the idea as a way to control the game without a controller. I do not see how a FPS can be fulling implemented with just body movements, without it being an unplayable mess...

Natal is out? We know nothing about how Natal will or won't be used, so saying it can is not the same as saying it will. It could be used in core games. It could be used in casual games. No one knows, so why not wait a while to guess about it?SpruceCaboose

So in this thread, I'm going to try to explain how it could be very beneficial to all games.Halofan77

I see this time and time again from people defending Natal. They mention a controller despite MS clearly selling the idea as a way to control the game without a controller. I do not see how a FPS can be fulling implemented with just body movements, without it being an unplayable mess...

-RPGamer-

[QUOTE="-RPGamer-"]

I see this time and time again from people defending Natal. They mention a controller despite MS clearly selling the idea as a way to control the game without a controller. I do not see how a FPS can be fulling implemented with just body movements, without it being an unplayable mess...

HaloFan77

And yet here we are talking about "hardcore games" like "Halo, Gears, Half-life" (2 of which are FPS) in the same context as Natal, a way to playgames sans a controller. Basically what you're telling me is that it's not possible, which makes me question why you even made this thread.

So you busted a myth on speculation alone?

flazzle

LOL @ the facial expression controller. Good luck with that. LOL

Honestly, being able to move and speak without my game reacting to it sounds more appealing to me.

[QUOTE="HaloFan77"]

[QUOTE="-RPGamer-"]

I see this time and time again from people defending Natal. They mention a controller despite MS clearly selling the idea as a way to control the game without a controller. I do not see how a FPS can be fulling implemented with just body movements, without it being an unplayable mess...

-RPGamer-

And yet here we are talking about "hardcore games" like "Halo, Gears, Half-life" (2 of which are FPS) in the same context as Natal, a way to playgames sans a controller. Basically what you're telling me is that it's not possible, which makes me question why you even made this thread.

[QUOTE="flazzle"]

So you busted a myth on speculation alone?

HaloFan77

Natal will be awesome for all sorts of games. I laugh when people say it has to be somebody running in place while holding their fingers like a gun. Lamers.

[QUOTE="-RPGamer-"]

[QUOTE="HaloFan77"] Neither I or Microsoft ever made the claim that it could be.

HaloFan77

And yet here we are talking about "hardcore games" like "Halo, Gears, Half-life" (2 of which are FPS) in the same context as Natal, a way to playgames sans a controller. Basically what you're telling me is that it's not possible, which makes me question why you even made this thread.

I did read your post, how in the world do you think I know you mentioned using a controller if I didn't read? I clearly stated that the entire concept behind Natal is to not use a controller, that your body is "the controller". What is the point of coming out and saying, we're introducing a way to play games that gets rid of the need for a controller... only to turn around and use a controller? :|

[QUOTE="HaloFan77"]

[QUOTE="flazzle"]

So you busted a myth on speculation alone?

flazzle

when natal is doing what microsoft promised it would do then i'll bite. otherwise im calling shennanigans on it, i think that its going to be a rotten add-on that wont work like they say it will and some games will be made for it but nothing will utilize it well. don't worry, i think the same thing about the ps3 wands that are coming out too.

Just to solidify my point, straight from MS own site. A slogan for Natal.

"Introducing Controller-Free Gaming & Entertainment"

[QUOTE="HaloFan77"]

[QUOTE="-RPGamer-"]

And yet here we are talking about "hardcore games" like "Halo, Gears, Half-life" (2 of which are FPS) in the same context as Natal, a way to playgames sans a controller. Basically what you're telling me is that it's not possible, which makes me question why you even made this thread.

-RPGamer-

I did read your post, how in the world do you think I know you mentioned using a controller if I didn't read? I clearly stated that the entire concept behind Natal is to not use a controller, that your body is "the controller". What is the point of coming out and saying, we're introducing a way to play games that gets rid of the need for a controller... only to turn around and use a controller? :|

The OP wasn't about whether or not Natal could be used to play traditional "Hardcore" games exclusively, It was about showing evidence that it could be useful to those games in some way.That's Microsoft's problem not mine.

HaloFan77

It's not useful if it can't handle the entire concept of playing these games without a controller. You've made it "your problem" (in terms of this conversation)when you decided to support it being useful for these types of games.

If you're going to support Natal you should at least understand and stick with what it is actually trying to accomplish.

Just to solidify my point, straight from MS own site. A slogan for Natal.

"Introducing Controller-Free Gaming & Entertainment"

-RPGamer-

[QUOTE="-RPGamer-"]

Just to solidify my point, straight from MS own site. A slogan for Natal.

"Introducing Controller-Free Gaming & Entertainment"

HaloFan77

That's not what they've been saying since they introduced the technology. I don't think they'll eliminate a gamepad either, but in the same stance until they change their statement I don't think they'll support a controller being used with Natal.

It goes against their entire concept to introduce the need for a controller.

[QUOTE="HaloFan77"]

The OP wasn't about whether or not Natal could be used to play traditional "Hardcore" games exclusively, It was about showing evidence that it could be useful to those games in some way.That's Microsoft's problem not mine.

-RPGamer-

It's not useful if it can't handle the entire concept of playing these games without a controller. You've made it "your problem" (in terms of this conversation)when you decided to support it being useful for these types of games.

If you're going to support Natal you should at least understand and stick with what it is actually trying to accomplish.

[QUOTE="HaloFan77"]

[QUOTE="-RPGamer-"]

Just to solidify my point, straight from MS own site. A slogan for Natal.

"Introducing Controller-Free Gaming & Entertainment"

-RPGamer-

That's not what they've been saying since they introduced the technology. I don't think they'll eliminate a gamepad either, but in the same stance until they change their statement I don't think they'll support a controller being used with Natal.

It goes against their entire concept to introduce the need for a controller.

This thread FAILS! Not only at not understanding how MS is pushing Natal, but at claiming bustage via speculation. In theory, Wii was awesome too, didn't turn out so great in practice now did it.

This thread FAILS! Not only at not understanding how MS is pushing Natal,but at claiming bustage via speculation. In theory, Wii was awesome too, didn't turn out so great in practice now did it.

DerekLoffin

seems like the mythbuster's mythbusting has been busted

But, I'm sure there will be plenty of games designed for Natal, that will play just fine without a gamepad. HaloFan77

I don't think it's as much what Natal can do, but what Natal can add that we can't already do. As for your examples;

Speech recognition: You yourself admit that this can already be done with any microphone, so how is this a Natal benefit? Particularly when it won't get beyond keyword recognition any time in the near future. To write a program that would actually recognize and understand speech is a huge undertaking.

Facial recognition: Ok, even though the FBI has been looking at this since 1963 and still isn't happy, let's just assume MS figures it out and it works. So you get auto log-ins. Why couldn't this be done with the vision cam or eyetoy? If you truly think we could have a program actually read facial expressions and interpret complex human emotions, you're mistaken, it would take a high resolution camera as well as quite a lot of programming. Changing the POV according to moving could also be done with any camera. But for the game to know what you're looking at, you would not only need the resolution to pinpoint the pupils of a person's eyes, you need to know the size, shape and orientation of the tv in respect to that person.

Milo: This was a myth in and of itself. This is nothing more than a smoke and mirrors carny act of a scripted sequence that we were told was more significant than it was.

Baseball: Ok, let's pretend this isn't a basic format like Wii sports. Actually swinging a bat or throwing the ball happens very fast. So fast, in fact, you need a high speed camera to truly capture the movement and not blur the image. So not only do you want two high resolution cameras, you want them to be high speed cameras, and cheap. Do you not see the problem here?

Hello, this is the second episode of my Video Game Mythbusters Series. I don't have a lot of time though so don't expect to see another one soon.

Myth: Natal has no real benefit for hardcore games.

I'll tell you.

I've seen a lot of threads recently about Natal, most people just simply don't understand how it could be used effectively in a "hardcore" game. You know, games like Halo, Gears of War, Half life and many more. So in this thread, I'm going to try to explain how it could very beneficial to to all games, especially story driven first person games like The Elder Scrolls and Half-Life. We all know how the Wiimote works and Sony's Motion Sensitive Controller looks to work the same way. But how does Natal work and what could it do to make Halo better?

Natal is made up of four major components. The RGB camera, depth camera, microphone, and a built-in processor to do all the calculations. Natal allows your XBOX360 to see and hear you, without ever slowing it down. OK, so now we know how it works. Now what can it do for our games?

Voice recognition. This will allow you to communicate verbally with characters in your game instead of entering text in a GUI. Giving you an even more immersive experience. But of course we could already do this with a headset. So what else can Natal do?

Head-tracking(of course Natal can track your body too). So whats so special about tracking your head anyway? By tracking your head movements, Natal can track where your head is in relation to your TV at all times. This allows your 360 to render the world in relation to your head instead of the center of the screen or some other fixed point in space. It also allows the characters in your games to see you, to know what you are looking at and even react to your facial expressions. In other words it allows your 360 to give you a 3D experience like you've never seen before.

If Natal can track your head and body, it should also be able to track inanimate objects. The XBOX360 controller is not motion sensitive, but what if Natal can track your controller too. It can allow sixaxis like control in games. For example in a Baseball game instead of acting like your holding Baseball bat, you could hold a real Baseball bat or a Fisher Price toy! Or, on a more serious note the developer could bundle in a peripheral. And because it would not require electronics, it would be cheap to produce and could be included for free.

So what do you get when you combine all of that together? You get something like Milo. A game where the characters can hear you, speak to you, see you, and interpret your expressions, They know when you're avoiding eye contact and will even know when your checking them out. Imagine playing TES4;Oblivion and instead of choosing between text on the screen to talk to people, you just walk up(using your controller) and say hi(using your mouth). It would be so immersive and creepy.

CONCLUSION

Myth: Natal has no real benefit for hardcore games.
Status: BUSTED.

Natal is useful to hardcore games and hopefully you all will agree the this myth is Busted and needs to be put to rest.

I highly suggest you watch these videos as they are my sources for this thread.

Headtracking
Natal
Milo

I can't find the video where they confirmed that there was a processor inside Natal, if i do find it I'll update the thread.

As I said earlier this is the second episode. You can find the first episode HERE.

BTW, I made this thread before, but it got locked before anyone could see it. At the time there was a sticky, and I failed to see it because I was writing this thread as it was posted. If you would like to see the original post, here's the LINK.

ALSO, IF YOU HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS FOR FUTURE VIDEO GAME MYTHBUSTERS EPISODES, PLEASE TELL ME!

HaloFan77

I guess actual talking with characters would work in a way. But at the end i suspect you wont have much options since it would take alot of man hours to design a system that allows you some kind of verbal chatting with characters on the most basic level. So in the end the most i could see is a few basic lines like "hi, get out of my face, get lost, i want to trade, sorry etc." and for actual talking it would be the same as now (some options for responses) and you would select like "option 1".

[QUOTE="-RPGamer-"]

[QUOTE="HaloFan77"] That's a marketing slogan. I still don't think they intend to completely eliminate the Gamepad, at least not yet. I think even next generation, They will continue to support it just as Nintendo has.

HaloFan77

That's not what they've been saying since they introduced the technology. I don't think they'll eliminate a gamepad either, but in the same stance until they change their statement I don't think they'll support a controller being used with Natal.

It goes against their entire concept to introduce the need for a controller.

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"]"Hardcore" is a term I really hate. What the hell does that even mean?KSU-Wildcat

The term is thrown around a lot, but I think "casual" games would be described as games like Wii Sports, Wii Fit, (not taking shots at the Wii, those are just easy examples), and "hardcore" games are games that aren't simple games that you can just play in little 15 minute bursts. Online shooters, RPGs, MMORPGs, etc. Hope that brings some clarity. Not sure if it is even correct, but it is my interpretation.

Also, it looks to me as though Natal has a disturbing resemblance to the PSEye. Or maybe that one controller that the AVGN reviewed that used a "power field."

I don't think it's as much what Natal can do, but what Natal can add that we can't already do. As for your examples;

Speech recognition: You yourself admit that this can already be done with any microphone, so how is this a Natal benefit? Particularly when it won't get beyond keyword recognition any time in the near future. To write a program that would actually recognize and understand speech is a huge undertaking.

Facial recognition: Ok, even though the FBI has been looking at this since 1963 and still isn't happy, let's just assume MS figures it out and it works. So you get auto log-ins. Why couldn't this be done with the vision cam or eyetoy?If you truly think we could have a program actually read facial expressions and interpret complex human emotions, you're mistaken, it would take a high resolution camera as well as quite a lot of programming.Changing the POV according to moving could also be done with any camera.But for the game to know what you're looking at, you would not only need the resolution to pinpoint the pupils of a person's eyes, you need to know the size, shape and orientation of the tv in respect to that person.

Milo: This was a myth in and of itself. This is nothing more than a smoke and mirrors carny act of a scripted sequence that we were told was more significant than it was.

Baseball: Ok, let's pretend this isn't a basic format like Wii sports. Actually swinging a bat or throwing the ball happens very fast. So fast, in fact, you need a high speed camera to truly capture the movement and not blur the image. So not only do you want two high resolution cameras, you want them to be high speed cameras, and cheap. Do you not see the problem here?

asylumni

Imagine a game like TESIV:Oblivion but with a few key differences made possible by Natal. For Example: When you talk to people they look right at you. Instead of entering text you actually talk to the character. At worst there could still be dialog options on the screen and you would have to say what ever dialog option you choose, out loud(And yes of course you could do this without Natal). Of course you will have the wonderful 3D Head-tracking and you will still control the game via the gamepad. I believe all of that is possible and could, if done right, be beneficial to the experience.

"Hardcore" is a term I really hate. What the hell does that even mean?PannicAtack

:P

If what you're saying is true, than the addition of the camera will just be a tacky "look, I've got motion sensors too!" gimmick. The controller works fine by itself, and what if you turn you head to talk to someone next to you, the camera would change direction. Not only that, you would have a extremely limited range of vision, been unable to 90 degrees either side due to you not actually looking at the screen anymore. Movement won't work unless on rails, using controller or doing something stupid like running on the spot which would be a disaster. On top of that, Natal would require a large screen for fine control. Otherwise all movements would be too big on a normal sized TV for things like aiming.

Overall, Natal seems to be Wii cash in, and you're "Mythbusting" is not only dubious but reeks of loyalist optimism. We've had camera systems before and they didn't work with "hardcore" games. Not only that, but these games with user movement would be extremely tiring. So no, it will likely not work well with hardcore games. There will always be exceptions to that, but these exceptions would also probably benefit from a actual controller control scheme.

Old thread is ancient.