What Uncharted 3 needs to do to top UC2!

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taterfrickintot

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#1 taterfrickintot
Member since 2008 • 2851 Posts

Uncharted 2 Was a masterpiece. i loved almost every minute of it and beat it 3 times. but there is one thing that needs fixed to make UC3 the best uncharted yet.

less gun fights.

it may sound stupid to some of you, but it was a realy pet peeve of mine through the uncharteds. the gun fights really do go well with drake's character. drake seems like somebody who would defeat his enemies with cleverness and on the spot thinking. not just rushing at hundreds highly armed and highly trained mercenaries rambo style and wiping them out.

although the gun fight controls are solid and easy to use, i think that in UC3, when drake is fighting enemies, they should be a lot harder to fight head on. there should be ways for drake use his enviroment to take out his enemies. like shooting the roof of a cave to make it collapse on them for example. or maybe have some stealth options too. make it so there are a lot of unique ways to defeat enemies instead of hiding behind a rock and shooting the crap out of them. this would make gameplay a lot more cinematic and varied, instead of just random gunfights as filler between cutscenes.

who's with me?

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tonitorsi

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#2 tonitorsi
Member since 2006 • 8692 Posts

Naughty Dog will have to move massive mountains to top Uncharted 2. Especially that 96 on Metacritic.

But itsNaughty Dog, if anyone can do it, its 100% them. Fear not!.

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millerlight89

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#3 millerlight89
Member since 2007 • 18658 Posts

Uncharted 2 Was a masterpiece.taterfrickintot

This is why I say it is over rated. UC2 is a great game, but masterpiece it is not.

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taterfrickintot

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#4 taterfrickintot
Member since 2008 • 2851 Posts

[QUOTE="taterfrickintot"]

Uncharted 2 Was a masterpiece.millerlight89

This is why I say it is over rated. UC2 is a great game, but masterpiece it is not.

did you read the rest of the article, or did you just read that part and attack my opinion of the game?
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millerlight89

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#5 millerlight89
Member since 2007 • 18658 Posts
[QUOTE="millerlight89"]

[QUOTE="taterfrickintot"]

Uncharted 2 Was a masterpiece.taterfrickintot

This is why I say it is over rated. UC2 is a great game, but masterpiece it is not.

did you read the rest of the article, or did you just read that part and attack my opinion of the game?

Yes I read the article. If you don't want your opinion attacked then perhaps you are in the wrong board.
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millerlight89

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#7 millerlight89
Member since 2007 • 18658 Posts

[QUOTE="taterfrickintot"]

Uncharted 2 Was a masterpiece. i loved almost every minute of it and beat it 3 times. but there is one thing that needs fixed to make UC3 the best uncharted yet.

less gun fights.

it may sound stupid to some of you, but it was a realy pet peeve of mine through the uncharteds. the gun fights really do go well with drake's character. drake seems like somebody who would defeat his enemies with cleverness and on the spot thinking. not just rushing at hundreds highly armed and highly trained mercenaries rambo style and wiping them out.

although the gun fight controls are solid and easy to use, i think that in UC3, when drake is fighting enemies, they should be a lot harder to fight head on. there should be ways for drake use his enviroment to take out his enemies. like shooting the roof of a cave to make it collapse on them for example. or maybe have some stealth options too. make it so there are a lot of unique ways to defeat enemies instead of hiding behind a rock and shooting the crap out of them. this would make gameplay a lot more cinematic and varied, instead of just random gunfights as filler between cutscenes.

who's with me?

Mkavanaugh77

Stopped reading there

The multiplayer was very boring and shallow

Single player was good, but not a masterpiece.

Did you read the article, or just come to attack his opinion. :P (I said the same)
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Nerd_Man

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#8 Nerd_Man
Member since 2007 • 13819 Posts
Aliens. Naughty Dog needs to put aliens into the game's story and some how tie them into ancient Aztec civilization.
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lbjkurono23

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#9 lbjkurono23
Member since 2007 • 12544 Posts

[QUOTE="Mkavanaugh77"]

[QUOTE="taterfrickintot"]

Uncharted 2 Was a masterpiece. i loved almost every minute of it and beat it 3 times. but there is one thing that needs fixed to make UC3 the best uncharted yet.

less gun fights.

it may sound stupid to some of you, but it was a realy pet peeve of mine through the uncharteds. the gun fights really do go well with drake's character. drake seems like somebody who would defeat his enemies with cleverness and on the spot thinking. not just rushing at hundreds highly armed and highly trained mercenaries rambo style and wiping them out.

although the gun fight controls are solid and easy to use, i think that in UC3, when drake is fighting enemies, they should be a lot harder to fight head on. there should be ways for drake use his enviroment to take out his enemies. like shooting the roof of a cave to make it collapse on them for example. or maybe have some stealth options too. make it so there are a lot of unique ways to defeat enemies instead of hiding behind a rock and shooting the crap out of them. this would make gameplay a lot more cinematic and varied, instead of just random gunfights as filler between cutscenes.

who's with me?

millerlight89

Stopped reading there

The multiplayer was very boring and shallow

Single player was good, but not a masterpiece.

Did you read the article, or just come to attack his opinion. :P (I said the same)

... at least you read it :lol:

@ tc I'm sure naughty dog will find a way to make it better.

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Dead-Memories

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#10 Dead-Memories
Member since 2008 • 6587 Posts

[QUOTE="taterfrickintot"][QUOTE="millerlight89"] This is why I say it is over rated. UC2 is a great game, but masterpiece it is not.

millerlight89

did you read the rest of the article, or did you just read that part and attack my opinion of the game?

Yes I read the article. If you don't want your opinion attacked then perhaps you are in the wrong board.

quoted for veracity

at any rate, UC 2 was an 8 game at best, it should focus more on the multiplayer this time around than the story, cause that's all that really matters to me. when it comes to these type of short action games.

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funsohng

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#11 funsohng
Member since 2005 • 29976 Posts
oh god, I certainly do agree with you. Actually I want a lot more stealth (with refined mechanics) and MOARR puzzles (since acrobatic platforming part, I don't think it can top Prince of Persia or Assassin's Creed)
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taterfrickintot

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#12 taterfrickintot
Member since 2008 • 2851 Posts

[QUOTE="millerlight89"][QUOTE="taterfrickintot"] did you read the rest of the article, or did you just read that part and attack my opinion of the game?Dead-Memories

Yes I read the article. If you don't want your opinion attacked then perhaps you are in the wrong board.

quoted for veracity

at any rate, UC 2 was an 8 game at best, it should focus more on the multiplayer this time around than the story, cause that's all that really matters to me. when it comes to these type of short action games.

im glad you are not in charge of naughty dog. the day uncharted is more focused on MP than SP, will probably be december 21'st 2012
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Dead-Memories

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#13 Dead-Memories
Member since 2008 • 6587 Posts
[QUOTE="Dead-Memories"]

[QUOTE="millerlight89"] Yes I read the article. If you don't want your opinion attacked then perhaps you are in the wrong board. taterfrickintot

quoted for veracity

at any rate, UC 2 was an 8 game at best, it should focus more on the multiplayer this time around than the story, cause that's all that really matters to me. when it comes to these type of short action games.

im glad you are not in charge of naughty dog. the day uncharted is more focused on MP than SP, will probably be december 21'st 2012

multiplayer is the only way to go for these type of short games is what I am trying to imply. the single player was just a glorified TPS with pretty graphics. there was little substance in it.
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coltgames

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#14 coltgames
Member since 2009 • 2120 Posts
Multiplayer needs to be better , co op missions need to be longer with several missions instead of 2 or 3 at least 10 with worldwide scoreboards ,survival needs to maybe have something extra to make it even more exciting . For single player it needs more wide open areas and some cool action moments maybe like fighting on a plane it something , battles in the ocean and no more bullet sponges
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theuncharted34

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#15 theuncharted34
Member since 2010 • 14529 Posts

[QUOTE="taterfrickintot"][QUOTE="Dead-Memories"]

quoted for veracity

at any rate, UC 2 was an 8 game at best, it should focus more on the multiplayer this time around than the story, cause that's all that really matters to me. when it comes to these type of short action games.

Dead-Memories

im glad you are not in charge of naughty dog. the day uncharted is more focused on MP than SP, will probably be december 21'st 2012

multiplayer is the only way to go for these type of short games is what I am trying to imply.the single player was just a glorified TPS with pretty graphics. there was little substance in it.

People with this mindset is why brilliant, single player games are becoming more scarce.

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Luxen90

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#16 Luxen90
Member since 2006 • 7427 Posts
One of the best shooting campaigns this gen. I think the gun sounds need more work too and something about shooting guns in Uncharted felt like it was missing more omph(Can't think of the right word atm.)
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coltgames

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#17 coltgames
Member since 2009 • 2120 Posts
Oh yea and uncharted 2 was awesome every moment for me was sad when I finished almost topped mgs4 for me can't wait till 3 I would've just edited this.in but on my phone so doesn't work right
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wasted_wisdom

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#18 wasted_wisdom
Member since 2008 • 1767 Posts

[QUOTE="taterfrickintot"]

Uncharted 2 Was a masterpiece.millerlight89

This is why I say it is over rated. UC2 is a great game, but masterpiece it is not.

I won't disagree with you but if it's not then what is? The game is up there with MGS4. Get over it.
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millerlight89

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#19 millerlight89
Member since 2007 • 18658 Posts
[QUOTE="millerlight89"]

[QUOTE="taterfrickintot"]

Uncharted 2 Was a masterpiece.wasted_wisdom

This is why I say it is over rated. UC2 is a great game, but masterpiece it is not.

I won't disagree with you but if it's not then what is? The game is up there with MGS4. Get over it.

What is there to get over? Sure it may be right up there with MGS 4, but that isn't a masterpiece either. :?
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Luxen90

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#20 Luxen90
Member since 2006 • 7427 Posts
[QUOTE="millerlight89"]

[QUOTE="taterfrickintot"]

Uncharted 2 Was a masterpiece.wasted_wisdom

This is why I say it is over rated. UC2 is a great game, but masterpiece it is not.

I won't disagree with you but if it's not then what is? The game is up there with MGS4. Get over it.

Lol, I'd say it's better than MGS4. MGS4 wasn't really all that great, good game sure.
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Baranga

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#21 Baranga
Member since 2005 • 14217 Posts

- no more supernatural crap

- less characters

- a better villain

- better puzzles than hold on, let me look at the journal

- DJ Atomika

- oh and 300% more Victor Goddamn Sullivan

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lbjkurono23

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#22 lbjkurono23
Member since 2007 • 12544 Posts

- no more supernatural crap

- less characters

- a better villain

- better puzzles than hold on, let me look at the journal

- DJ Atomika

Baranga
I would stop playing Uncharted if they went that way :lol:
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theuncharted34

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#23 theuncharted34
Member since 2010 • 14529 Posts

[QUOTE="Baranga"]

- no more supernatural crap

- less characters

- a better villain

- better puzzles than hold on, let me look at the journal

- DJ Atomika

lbjkurono23

I would stop playing Uncharted if they went that way :lol:

You don't want a better villain? :P

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Dead-Memories

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#24 Dead-Memories
Member since 2008 • 6587 Posts

[QUOTE="Dead-Memories"][QUOTE="taterfrickintot"] im glad you are not in charge of naughty dog. the day uncharted is more focused on MP than SP, will probably be december 21'st 2012theuncharted34

multiplayer is the only way to go for these type of short games is what I am trying to imply.the single player was just a glorified TPS with pretty graphics. there was little substance in it.

People with this mindset is why brilliant, single player games are becoming more scarce.

there are quite a few brilliant single player games. bioshock 1, the STALKER series, cryostasis, amnesia. you're just looking in the wrong places, bud.
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lbjkurono23

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#25 lbjkurono23
Member since 2007 • 12544 Posts

[QUOTE="lbjkurono23"][QUOTE="Baranga"]

- no more supernatural crap

- less characters

- a better villain

- better puzzles than hold on, let me look at the journal

- DJ Atomika

theuncharted34

I would stop playing Uncharted if they went that way :lol:

You don't want a better villain? :P

Naw the colored ones :P

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lbjkurono23

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#26 lbjkurono23
Member since 2007 • 12544 Posts
[QUOTE="theuncharted34"]

[QUOTE="Dead-Memories"] multiplayer is the only way to go for these type of short games is what I am trying to imply.the single player was just a glorified TPS with pretty graphics. there was little substance in it. Dead-Memories

People with this mindset is why brilliant, single player games are becoming more scarce.

there are quite a few brilliant single player games. bioshock 1, the STALKER series, cryostasis, amnesia. you're just looking in the wrong places, bud.

You got to mention more than four... lol
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destro123

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#27 destro123
Member since 2005 • 755 Posts

The only thing I could think of would be more diversity, non-lineral type gameplay. And remove any supernatural stuff because it runins the story IMO lol. Maybe some gameplay in a major city perhaps? could be cool.

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HaloinventedFPS

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#28 HaloinventedFPS
Member since 2010 • 4738 Posts

better graphics

Uncharted 2 was only popular because of its graphics, uncharted 1 was just as good, prove me wrong.

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theuncharted34

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#29 theuncharted34
Member since 2010 • 14529 Posts

[QUOTE="theuncharted34"]

[QUOTE="Dead-Memories"] multiplayer is the only way to go for these type of short games is what I am trying to imply.the single player was just a glorified TPS with pretty graphics. there was little substance in it. Dead-Memories

People with this mindset is why brilliant, single player games are becoming more scarce.

there are quite a few brilliant single player games. bioshock 1, the STALKER series, cryostasis, amnesia. you're just looking in the wrong places, bud.

... So in other words you only like shooters and Online games?

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Dead-Memories

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#30 Dead-Memories
Member since 2008 • 6587 Posts

[QUOTE="Dead-Memories"][QUOTE="theuncharted34"]

People with this mindset is why brilliant, single player games are becoming more scarce.

theuncharted34

there are quite a few brilliant single player games. bioshock 1, the STALKER series, cryostasis, amnesia. you're just looking in the wrong places, bud.

... So in other words you only like shooters and Online games?

and RPG's mostly online games though, I value good competitive play over single player games like UC 2's or even Splinter Cell Conviction, which had a terrible competitive aspect. , not only in shooters but in SC 2 and WoW arena as well.
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theuncharted34

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#31 theuncharted34
Member since 2010 • 14529 Posts

[QUOTE="theuncharted34"]

[QUOTE="Dead-Memories"] there are quite a few brilliant single player games. bioshock 1, the STALKER series, cryostasis, amnesia. you're just looking in the wrong places, bud. Dead-Memories

... So in other words you only like shooters and Online games?

and RPG's mostly online games though, I value good competitive play over single player games like UC 2's or even Splinter Cell Conviction, which had a terrible competitive aspect. , not only in shooters but in SC 2 and WoW arena as well.

well if you like shooters with amazing atmosphere then metroid prime games would be right up your alley. Allthough they're more first person adventure.

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Dead-Memories

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#32 Dead-Memories
Member since 2008 • 6587 Posts

[QUOTE="Dead-Memories"][QUOTE="theuncharted34"]

... So in other words you only like shooters and Online games?

theuncharted34

and RPG's mostly online games though, I value good competitive play over single player games like UC 2's or even Splinter Cell Conviction, which had a terrible competitive aspect. , not only in shooters but in SC 2 and WoW arena as well.

well if you like shooters with amazing atmosphere then metroid prime games would be right up your alley. Allthough they're more first person adventure.

way ahead of you man, metroid prime 1 is a solid 10 on my ratings list, echoes comes in as a 9 and i haven't played corruption yet unfortunately. the first metroid prime was mind boggling.
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UnrealLegend

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#33 UnrealLegend
Member since 2009 • 5888 Posts

better graphics

Uncharted 2 was only popular because of its graphics, uncharted 1 was just as good, prove me wrong.

HaloinventedFPS

What? Uncharted 2 would be an epic game even without the pretty graphics. :?

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spookykid143

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#34 spookykid143
Member since 2009 • 10393 Posts

[QUOTE="taterfrickintot"][QUOTE="Dead-Memories"]

quoted for veracity

at any rate, UC 2 was an 8 game at best, it should focus more on the multiplayer this time around than the story, cause that's all that really matters to me. when it comes to these type of short action games.

Dead-Memories

im glad you are not in charge of naughty dog. the day uncharted is more focused on MP than SP, will probably be december 21'st 2012

multiplayer is the only way to go for these type of short games is what I am trying to imply. the single player was just a glorified TPS with pretty graphics. there was little substance in it.

Lets give Mass effect MP while were at it to.

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Dead-Memories

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#35 Dead-Memories
Member since 2008 • 6587 Posts

[QUOTE="Dead-Memories"][QUOTE="taterfrickintot"] im glad you are not in charge of naughty dog. the day uncharted is more focused on MP than SP, will probably be december 21'st 2012spookykid143

multiplayer is the only way to go for these type of short games is what I am trying to imply. the single player was just a glorified TPS with pretty graphics. there was little substance in it.

Lets give Mass effect MP while were at it to.

Mass Effect is a 30+ hour game, uncharted 2 is not. go figure bro.
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spookykid143

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#36 spookykid143
Member since 2009 • 10393 Posts

[QUOTE="spookykid143"]

[QUOTE="Dead-Memories"] multiplayer is the only way to go for these type of short games is what I am trying to imply. the single player was just a glorified TPS with pretty graphics. there was little substance in it. Dead-Memories

Lets give Mass effect MP while were at it to.

Mass Effect is a 30+ hour game, uncharted 2 is not. go figure bro.

I've put 30 hours into the UC2 campaign.

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Dead-Memories

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#37 Dead-Memories
Member since 2008 • 6587 Posts

[QUOTE="Dead-Memories"][QUOTE="spookykid143"]Lets give Mass effect MP while were at it to.

spookykid143

Mass Effect is a 30+ hour game, uncharted 2 is not. go figure bro.

I've put 30 hours into the UC2 campaign.

but the campaign isn't that long though. do you even have the plat?
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spookykid143

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#38 spookykid143
Member since 2009 • 10393 Posts

[QUOTE="spookykid143"]

[QUOTE="Dead-Memories"] Mass Effect is a 30+ hour game, uncharted 2 is not. go figure bro. Dead-Memories

I've put 30 hours into the UC2 campaign.

but the campaign isn't that long though. do you even have the plat?

Yes but i don't have all the MP trophies.

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funsohng

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#39 funsohng
Member since 2005 • 29976 Posts

[QUOTE="theuncharted34"]

[QUOTE="lbjkurono23"] I would stop playing Uncharted if they went that way :lol:lbjkurono23

You don't want a better villain? :P

Naw the colored ones :P

I don't mind supernatural crap, as long as there is no more supernatural craps we have to shoot at
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theuncharted34

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#40 theuncharted34
Member since 2010 • 14529 Posts

[QUOTE="Dead-Memories"][QUOTE="spookykid143"]Lets give Mass effect MP while were at it to.

spookykid143

Mass Effect is a 30+ hour game, uncharted 2 is not. go figure bro.

I've put 30 hours into the UC2 campaign.

Same for me as well. the breathtaking vista's, the excellent dialougue and story progression, the gameplay, and Sully :P All add up for an amazing package, which I consider a 10. Beat it 4 times lol

EDIT: make that 40 hours 8) on the flipside, I've only spent 20 or so in the multiplayer.

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SRTtoZ

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#41 SRTtoZ
Member since 2009 • 4800 Posts

I cant stand these people who want to focus on MP instead of SP. Games have gotten progressivly worse (Halo, GeOw) because of focus on multiplayer. I want a story filled game that is polished and A+ content from beigning to end. I dont want to shoot someone over and over mindlessly and capture a @#$#$ flag.

If you want MP, go look somewhere else, Uncharted is NOT your series.

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Dead-Memories

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#42 Dead-Memories
Member since 2008 • 6587 Posts

I cant stand these people who want to focus on MP instead of SP. Games have gotten progressivly worse (Halo, GeOw) because of focus on multiplayer. I want a story filled game that is polished and A+ content from beigning to end. I dont want to shoot someone over and over mindlessly and capture a @#$#$ flag.

If you want MP, go look somewhere else, Uncharted is NOT your series.

SRTtoZ
i'm sorry, I didn't know games that are continuing to get AAA scores is indicative of getting "progressively worse" excuse my ignorance please.
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deactivated-586249e1b64ba

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#43 deactivated-586249e1b64ba
Member since 2004 • 7629 Posts

Stay the Hell away from buildings of any kind. >.> A lot of the platforming just seems so forced. There always some obstacle in your way at the end of a shootout and your friends are never very helpful when it comes to getting past them. Focus more on getting past enemies in a large, open environment. Stealth games tend to have crappy shooting while shooters tend to consist of very closed spaces. Capitalize on it.

Speaking of friends, have them actually stick around. >.> It'd be nice to have someone other than Elena for four-fifths of the game.

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ycole11

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#44 ycole11
Member since 2007 • 645 Posts
I think the focus needs to be on the story and singleplayer gameplay elements. -The story needs to be a little less predictable. -Get rid of those little plot twists or somehow make the twist more than just monsters showing up. -Make multiple ways to approach the combat. -Differentiate the environments. i.e. Volcanoes, deserts, and maybe even an underwater base of some kind. Perhaps they could set part of it in a more industrial setting also.
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funsohng

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#45 funsohng
Member since 2005 • 29976 Posts
[QUOTE="Dead-Memories"]multiplayer is the only way to go for these type of short games is what I am trying to imply. the single player was just a glorified TPS with pretty graphics. there was little substance in it.

Although I do agree that TPS games like Uncharted should place a good chunk of its attention on MP, I do not agree on the fact Uncharted 2 was just a glorified TPS with pretty graphics. Its level designs are done well, and the combination of platforming and shooting mechanics at the same time, as well as heavily scripted sequences, albeit providing a limited experience, does result in a very tight and rather unique 3rd person experience. Yes, the puzzles and other non-shooting mechanics were lacking in quality, the whole experience is immersive and the tight gameplay without much flaws does not detract the players from that immersion. I do, however, agree that Uncharted 2 was overrated a little. But I wouldn't give it a 8.0. But Uncharted 3 definitely should downsize the shooting sequences, and leave those to multiplayer. Keeping Uncharted 2 formula in Uncharted 3 would be a disaster and I would be extremely disappointed if that were to happen.
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Dead-Memories

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#46 Dead-Memories
Member since 2008 • 6587 Posts
[QUOTE="funsohng"][QUOTE="Dead-Memories"]multiplayer is the only way to go for these type of short games is what I am trying to imply. the single player was just a glorified TPS with pretty graphics. there was little substance in it.

Although I do agree that TPS games like Uncharted should place a good chunk of its attention on MP, I do not agree on the fact Uncharted 2 was just a glorified TPS with pretty graphics. Its level designs are done well, and the combination of platforming and shooting mechanics at the same time, as well as heavily scripted sequences, albeit providing a limited experience, does result in a very tight and rather unique 3rd person experience. Yes, the puzzles and other non-shooting mechanics were lacking in quality, the whole experience is immersive and the tight gameplay without much flaws does not detract the players from that immersion. I do, however, agree that Uncharted 2 was overrated a little. But I wouldn't give it a 8.0. But Uncharted 3 definitely should downsize the shooting sequences, and leave those to multiplayer. Keeping Uncharted 2 formula in Uncharted 3 would be a disaster and I would be extremely disappointed if that were to happen.

there was little substance in the way of actual story or character development. i didn't mean to disregard the amazing set pieces, the chopper chase on the train, the ending bridge collapse and the chase sequences in nepal were all pretty fun.
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Luxen90

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#47 Luxen90
Member since 2006 • 7427 Posts

there was little substance in the way of actual story or character development. i didn't mean to disregard the amazing set pieces, the chopper chase on the train, the ending bridge collapse and the chase sequences in nepal were all pretty fun.Dead-Memories
Were you praising Bioshock 1 for its atmosphere or story?

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Dead-Memories

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#48 Dead-Memories
Member since 2008 • 6587 Posts

[QUOTE="Dead-Memories"] there was little substance in the way of actual story or character development. i didn't mean to disregard the amazing set pieces, the chopper chase on the train, the ending bridge collapse and the chase sequences in nepal were all pretty fun.Luxen90

Were you praising Bioshock 1 for its atmosphere or story?

both, that was a hell of a game.
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FIipMode

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#49 FIipMode
Member since 2009 • 10850 Posts

I just played some multiplayer today, so much fun, (and if your not using the pistol as a primary your doing it wrong) and I'm probably going to give the single player another go. Definitely one of the top games this gen. Don't know exactly how ND will even top Uncharted 2, but if anyone will be able to, it's them.

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Luxen90

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#50 Luxen90
Member since 2006 • 7427 Posts
[QUOTE="Luxen90"]

[QUOTE="Dead-Memories"] there was little substance in the way of actual story or character development. i didn't mean to disregard the amazing set pieces, the chopper chase on the train, the ending bridge collapse and the chase sequences in nepal were all pretty fun.Dead-Memories

Were you praising Bioshock 1 for its atmosphere or story?

both, that was a hell of a game.

Yeah I'm not exactly seeing how you thought there was little substance in actual story and character development in Uncharted 2, then praise Bioshock. I'm not seeing it at all, oh well.