What was Once Hardcore is now Casual

I have read some people say that Nintendo used to cater to the hardcore audience before the Gamecube or Nintendo 64, and that with these systems and later on they are now focusing on the general population by releasing casual games to cater to everyone, and while doing so are abandoning their original audience.

So my question is that if Nintendo is basically releasing the same type of games they always have, what makes these titles casual nowadays if they were hardcore when they were originally released?

I would like to see what people think here. I would also like to know what older game was hardcore, since there was no such thing as casual or hardcore before video gaming started to become mainstream in the late '90s.

All games on all systems have become to easy, it's not just Nintendo. Look at games like Bioshock, you can't even die anymore. The more people play video games, the more easy they will get. Hardcore gamers really don't matter , haven't for a very long time.

It's just that they think they matter and have a bigger mouth than other gamers so make more noise about gaming.

Casual? The Wii isnt even aimed at gamers, really its pathetic.

All games on all systems have become to easy, it's not just Nintendo. Look at games like Bioshock, you can't even die anymore. The more people play video games, the more easy they will get. Hardcore gamers really don't matter , haven't for a very long time.

It's just that they think they matter and have a bigger mouth than other gamers so make more noise about gaming.

Nick-M40A3

So you're saying that it's the difficulty or the punishment/reward system that makes a game hardcore? Most if not all games nowadays have multiple difficulty settings. I do agree that the lack of punishment for death in Bioshock makes the game less appealing, but you give no Nintendo examples.

I have read some people say that Nintendo used to cater to the hardcore audience before the Gamecube or Nintendo 64, and that with these systems and later on they are now focusing on the general population by releasing casual games to cater to everyone, and while doing so are abandoning their original audience.

So my question is that if Nintendo is basically releasing the same type of games they always have, what makes these titles casual nowadays if they were hardcore when they were originally released?

I would like to see what people think here. I would also like to know what older game was hardcore, since there was no such thing as casual or hardcore before video gaming started to become mainstream in the late '90s.

Spindoc_SEI

Things change... What was once a fast car becomes a slow car... what was once a beautiful lady becomes a wrinkly hag... Nintendo games are not captivating in the slightest, really easy, too childish design in the characters and levels, always has bad controllers (especially N64, wtf was that...) and lost most of their mature games with rare. Funny thing is rare is turning childish now... viva pinata... what a hardcore game used to be i would have to say would be Streets of Rage on the Genesis ;P IDK just my views. Now a hardcore game would be something like Killzone 2, Bioshock, Starcraft 2, just epics or games with griddier more adult oriented themes and accessibility. I know i'm probably gonna get flak :(

Casual? The Wii isnt even aimed at gamers, really its pathetic.

Ultra-Fatality

You could say that about any Nintendo console. Nintendo has always been about expanding the market by bringing in children.

[QUOTE="Spindoc_SEI"]

I have read some people say that Nintendo used to cater to the hardcore audience before the Gamecube or Nintendo 64, and that with these systems and later on they are now focusing on the general population by releasing casual games to cater to everyone, and while doing so are abandoning their original audience.

So my question is that if Nintendo is basically releasing the same type of games they always have, what makes these titles casual nowadays if they were hardcore when they were originally released?

I would like to see what people think here. I would also like to know what older game was hardcore, since there was no such thing as casual or hardcore before video gaming started to become mainstream in the late '90s.

D3monchicken

Things change... What was once a fast car becomes a slow car... what was once a beautiful lady becomes a wrinkly hag... Nintendo games are not captivating in the slightest, really easy, too childish design in the characters and levels, always has bad controllers (especially N64, wtf was that...) and lost most of their mature games with rare. Funny thing is rare is turning childish now... viva pinata... what a hardcore game used to be i would have to say would be Streets of Rage on the Genesis ;P IDK just my views. Now a hardcore game would be something like Killzone 2, Bioshock, Starcraft 2, just epics or games with griddier more adult oriented themes and accessibility. I know i'm probably gonna get flak :(

Things change... What was once a fast car becomes a slow car... what was once a beautiful lady becomes a wrinkly hag... Nintendo games are not captivating in the slightest, really easy, too childish design in the characters and levels, always has bad controllers (especially N64, wtf was that...) and lost most of their mature games with rare. Funny thing is rare is turning childish now... viva pinata... what a hardcore game used to be i would have to say would be Streets of Rage on the Genesis ;P IDK just my views. Now a hardcore game would be something like Killzone 2, Bioshock, Starcraft 2, just epics or games with griddier more adult oriented themes and accessibility. I know i'm probably gonna get flak :(

D3monchicken

You make a good argument here. I think that going from the original Super Mario Bros. to the 3-D incarnations has turned Mario casual now that I think about it after Nick's post and reflecting on your choice of Streets of Rage. I think that the N64 controller moved consoles to use analog sticks as the primary control device though in later iterations, even though the ergonomic design was horrible.

Does childish character and level designs make a game less appealing? I don't think it's the design, but the overall gameplay experience which makes a game good, be it casual or hardcore.

I have read some people say that Nintendo used to cater to the hardcore audience before the Gamecube or Nintendo 64, and that with these systems and later on they are now focusing on the general population by releasing casual games to cater to everyone, and while doing so are abandoning their original audience.

So my question is that if Nintendo is basically releasing the same type of games they always have, what makes these titles casual nowadays if they were hardcore when they were originally released?

I would like to see what people think here. I would also like to know what older game was hardcore, since there was no such thing as casual or hardcore before video gaming started to become mainstream in the late '90s.

Spindoc_SEI

because cooking moma is very hardcore, thats why.

It´s true that single player experiences in games are easier now that they used to be. I think that´s why competitive gaming has grown so much. Beating the single player modein Soul Calibur 3 for instance isn´t hard, but play it at a tournament against players that are better than you... THAT`S hard!!

because cooking moma is very hardcore, thats why.

humber_matus

If you're being sarcastic, then GTFO. I know that's a casual game so don't mess with me because I'm trying to have a discussion that's at least 70% serious.

i do not think that a hard game makes a hardcore game , it has to be more with the deep gameplay and storyline , is like in books you have light and hardcore lectures, but by no means a hard book is a book imposible to read , if you get my idea. :DYuri_Volte

Sometimes a game has a storyline that isn't apparent to the player unless they read the accompanying literature. I could go with that. I believe that this would make Gears of War a casual game because of its shallow gameplay and a simple storyline that lacks depth comparable to a Mario game.

By the way, I do believe that Gears of War is a casual game, I wasn't just saying it for the sake of argument. Halo is also a casual game, but the story is hardcore because of the extensive literature.

because cooking moma is very hardcore, thats why.humber_matus

Cooking Mama is not developed or published by Nintendo, I really wish people would know what they are talking about before they type...

The way I see things is that Nintendo is still producing the same quality games it always has, except there are now more 'casual' or 'non-games' alongside them. The issue is not so much that Nintendo have ceased to cater for the core gamer, but rather they have started to produce more accessible, simple software alongside their traditional games. 'Casual' games do not come at the detriment of traditional games, instead they expand and create their own market. Wii Sports is not stealing sales from Bioshock, nor will Wii Fit reduce the sales figures of future 'hardcore' titles. The two appeal to different demographics and different markets, all credit to Nintendo that in many cases these 'casual' games appeal to both audiences- Animal Crossing is a prime example. We have to rid ourselves of this notion that there is a constant struggle between casual and hardcore, the two exist independent of each other, in their own space.

Most 'hardcore' gamers see themselves at the centre of the gaming universe, in reality you are a small distant planet, admittedly with a strong gravitational pull, but still less important than many would like to think. As for games becoming 'easier', when you are an adult and have numerous responsibilities and your time seems scarce, you will be thankful for this smoother difficulty curve. I for one prefer a seamless gameplay experience rather than being confounded on puzzles for days at a time, often losing interest in a game because I simly do not have time, nor the urge, to play a game for hours a day.

[QUOTE="humber_matus"]because cooking moma is very hardcore, thats why.Caviglia

Cooking Mama is not developed or published by Nintendo, I really wish people would know what they are talking about before they type...

The way I see things is that Nintendo is still producing the same quality games it always has, except there are now more 'casual' or 'non-games' alongside them. The issue is not so much that Nintendo have ceased to cater for the core gamer, but rather they have started to produce more accessible, simple software alongside their traditional games. 'Casual' games do not come at the detriment of traditional games, instead they expand and create their own market. Wii Sports is not stealing sales from Bioshock, nor will Wii Fit reduce the sales figures of future 'hardcore' titles. The two appeal to different demographics and different markets, all credit to Nintendo that in many cases these 'casual' games appeal to both audiences- Animal Crossing is a prime example. We have to rid ourselves of this notion that there is a constant struggle between casual and hardcore, the two exist independent of each other, in their own space.

Most 'hardcore' gamers see themselves at the centre of the gaming universe, in reality you are a small distant planet, admittedly with a strong gravitational pull, but still less important than many would like to think. As for games becoming 'easier', when you are an adult and have numerous responsibilities and your time seems scarce, you will be thankful for this smoother difficulty curve. I for one prefer a seamless gameplay experience rather than being confounded on puzzles for days at a time, often losing interest in a game because I simly do not have time, nor the urge, to play a game for hours a day.

the problem is not that nintendo doesnt make hardcore, its that 3rd party developers dont make enough hardcore games.

[QUOTE="humber_matus"]because cooking moma is very hardcore, thats why.Caviglia

Cooking Mama is not developed or published by Nintendo, I really wish people would know what they are talking about before they type...

The way I see things is that Nintendo is still producing the same quality games it always has, except there are now more 'casual' or 'non-games' alongside them. The issue is not so much that Nintendo have ceased to cater for the core gamer, but rather they have started to produce more accessible, simple software alongside their traditional games. 'Casual' games do not come at the detriment of traditional games, instead they expand and create their own market. Wii Sports is not stealing sales from Bioshock, nor will Wii Fit reduce the sales figures of future 'hardcore' titles. The two appeal to different demographics and different markets, all credit to Nintendo that in many cases these 'casual' games appeal to both audiences- Animal Crossing is a prime example. We have to rid ourselves of this notion that there is a constant struggle between casual and hardcore, the two exist independent of each other, in their own space.

Most 'hardcore' gamers see themselves at the centre of the gaming universe, in reality you are a small distant planet, admittedly with a strong gravitational pull, but still less important than many would like to think. As for games becoming 'easier', when you are an adult and have numerous responsibilities and your time seems scarce, you will be thankful for this smoother difficulty curve. I for one prefer a seamless gameplay experience rather than being confounded on puzzles for days at a time, often losing interest in a game because I simly do not have time, nor the urge, to play a game for hours a day.

Wow, you summed up my feelings pretty well here.

[QUOTE="Ultra-Fatality"]

Casual? The Wii isnt even aimed at gamers, really its pathetic.

iunderstand

You could say that about any Nintendo console. Nintendo has always been about expanding the market by bringing in children.

Expanding the market would be brining adults in though, they have it the wrong way around >>

the problem is not that nintendo doesnt make hardcore, its that 3rd party developers dont make enough hardcore games.humber_matus

That is because many of them are deluded with those very fallacies that many in the gaming community hold true- that there is somehow a competition between 'hardcore' and 'casual', that because a console appeals to a broader, more varied audience that the hub of core gamers must of gone elsewhere.We saw this recently with the frankly idiotic and naive comments made by a Silent Hill developer.

When developers hold these attitudes it often means they do nor create traditional, quality and in-depth games for the Wii, an endlesscycle ensues where developers see the Wii as a 'casual' system, put poor quality, simplified, games on the console, these games then sell poorly, other developers see this and lessen their support- thus making the Wii a 'casual' system because of their lack of commitment. The Wii is not a 'casual' system, but some developers are turing it into one by producing awful software for it.

Just because people make games or are involved in the industrydo not assume they understand the industry and gaming community any more than some gamers.

[QUOTE="iunderstand"][QUOTE="Ultra-Fatality"]

Casual? The Wii isnt even aimed at gamers, really its pathetic.

Meu2k7

You could say that about any Nintendo console. Nintendo has always been about expanding the market by bringing in children.

Expanding the market would be brining adults in though, they have it the wrong way around >>

I would acturally disagree. Original Nintendo fans were once kids and are now adults. I think most kids now are going for the PSP, DS, or PS2. I guess though by appealing to adults they're in effecct appealing to their children too. I think Nintendo is trying to appeal to the large DS audience by bringing a similar gameplay mechanic to a console.

[QUOTE="humber_matus"]the problem is not that nintendo doesnt make hardcore, its that 3rd party developers dont make enough hardcore games.Caviglia

That is because many of them are deluded with those very fallacies that many in the gaming community hold true- that there is somehow a competition between 'hardcore' and 'casual', that because a console appeals to a broader, more varied audience that the hub of core gamers must of gone elsewhere.We saw this recently with the frankly idiotic and naive comments made by a Silent Hill developer.

When developers hold these attitudes it often means they do nor create traditional, quality and in-depth games for the Wii, an endlesscycle ensues where developers see the Wii as a 'casual' system, put poor quality, simplified, games on the console, these games then sell poorly, other developers see this and lessen their support- thus making the Wii a 'casual' system because of their lack of commitment. The Wii is not a 'casual' system, but some developers are turing it into one by producing awful software for it.

Just because people make games or are involved in the industrydo not assume they understand the industry and gaming community any more than some gamers.

i understand what yer saying, but it doesn't make the wii any less casual.

[QUOTE="iunderstand"][QUOTE="Ultra-Fatality"]

Casual? The Wii isnt even aimed at gamers, really its pathetic.

Meu2k7

You could say that about any Nintendo console. Nintendo has always been about expanding the market by bringing in children.

Expanding the market would be brining adults in though, they have it the wrong way around >>

What do you mean? Nintendo consoles are usually the first console kids start playing on. Every Nintendo console was designed to appeal to children first and foremost.

[QUOTE="humber_matus"]the problem is not that nintendo doesnt make hardcore, its that 3rd party developers dont make enough hardcore games.Caviglia

That is because many of them are deluded with those very fallacies that many in the gaming community hold true- that there is somehow a competition between 'hardcore' and 'casual', that because a console appeals to a broader, more varied audience that the hub of core gamers must of gone elsewhere.We saw this recently with the frankly idiotic and naive comments made by a Silent Hill developer.

When developers hold these attitudes it often means they do nor create traditional, quality and in-depth games for the Wii, an endlesscycle ensues where developers see the Wii as a 'casual' system, put poor quality, simplified, games on the console, these games then sell poorly, other developers see this and lessen their support- thus making the Wii a 'casual' system because of their lack of commitment. The Wii is not a 'casual' system, but some developers are turing it into one by producing awful software for it.

Just because people make games or are involved in the industrydo not assume they understand the industry and gaming community any more than some gamers.

That's an interesting point because I did notice that while Wii has a lot of games coming out this holiday season, most of them are obscure and wouldn't appeal to most gamers. So it's the fault of the game producers and not Nintendo itself. Although it could be two-pronged because of Nintendo's marketing campaign. Maybe even though Nintendo has the most sales, they suffer from a similar marketing problem akin to Sony?

[QUOTE="iunderstand"][QUOTE="Ultra-Fatality"]

Casual? The Wii isnt even aimed at gamers, really its pathetic.

Meu2k7

You could say that about any Nintendo console. Nintendo has always been about expanding the market by bringing in children.

Expanding the market would be brining adults in though, they have it the wrong way around >>

Actually, from a marketing stand point (assuming the garbage kiddy argument to have any truth) children are the where you'd want toexpand any market. They use the products over a longer period of time if you hook them earlier. Like cigarette companies.

[QUOTE="Meu2k7"][QUOTE="iunderstand"][QUOTE="Ultra-Fatality"]

Casual? The Wii isnt even aimed at gamers, really its pathetic.

Spindoc_SEI

You could say that about any Nintendo console. Nintendo has always been about expanding the market by bringing in children.

Expanding the market would be brining adults in though, they have it the wrong way around >>

I would acturally disagree. Original Nintendo fans were once kids and are now adults. I think most kids now are going for the PSP, DS, or PS2. I guess though by appealing to adults they're in effecct appealing to their children too. I think Nintendo is trying to appeal to the large DS audience by bringing a similar gameplay mechanic to a console.

Thats just pure theory .... alot of those adults would have stopped gaming, and are you saying the N64/GC couldnt of brought more kids in aswell?

The point is, kids will have a console no matter of the brand, but the 360/PS3 and heck even PC for the most point mainly offers only vioelent games that Kids/Teens can REALLY get a kick out of ... yea sure we play shooters of any age but it appeals to the same niche people.

I remember last year I was playing CS:S and my mom and autnie was around asking why I'm obsessed with shooting games and that "its sick" .... which I dont blame them for thinking I suppose.

There is no realy Adult gaming market ... there is plenty of kiddish stuff alreayd, Manhunt is kiddy, its sick twisted and a load of crap that could only be liked by teens that think guts is cool (imo) .

Where are the Film/Book like thrillers/adventures/stories ... like I dunno Alan Wake? but step that up a notch, why isnt there more games like "The Sims" because that seems to get good adult attention aswell.

Rainbow six from PC to Consoles = Hardcore to casuel

That's an interesting point because I did notice that while Wii has a lot of games coming out this holiday season, most of them are obscure and wouldn't appeal to most gamers. So it's the fault of the game producers and not Nintendo itself. Although it could be two-pronged because of Nintendo's marketing campaign. Maybe even though Nintendo has the most sales, they suffer from a similar marketing problem akin to Sony?Spindoc_SEI

That is a good observation, so-called 'hardcore' gamers have a comparatively narrow taste in games. Games like Zack & Wiki, NiGHTS, BWii, Fire Emblem are all undoubtedly hardcore yet are unknown or completely misunderstood by the 'hardcore' community. For me I feel the word 'hardcore', in the context of this generation,better describes someone who plays the slew of shooters and racers that have inundated consoles recently. They would actually be more 'casual' in my eyes because they are so inclined towards a very select number of genres.

As far as Nintendo's marketing strategy is concerned I do feel they are to blame for aggrevating this artificial rift between casual and hardcore for their own benefit, therefore those gamers who arenot particularly astute see the advertisements and press conferences of Nintendo and feel alienated. Of course, if they look past this veneer they will see the Nintendo they loved still remains and the great games are still being made; they have just been sidelined when it comes tomarketing.

[QUOTE="Spindoc_SEI"]

I would acturally disagree. Original Nintendo fans were once kids and are now adults. I think most kids now are going for the PSP, DS, or PS2. I guess though by appealing to adults they're in effecct appealing to their children too. I think Nintendo is trying to appeal to the large DS audience by bringing a similar gameplay mechanic to a console.

Meu2k7

Thats just pure theory .... alot of those adults would have stopped gaming, and are you saying the N64/GC couldnt of brought more kids in aswell?

The point is, kids will have a console no matter of the brand, but the 360/PS3 and heck even PC for the most point mainly offers only vioelent games that Kids/Teens can REALLY get a kick out of ... yea sure we play shooters of any age but it appeals to the same niche people.

I remember last year I was playing CS:S and my mom and autnie was around asking why I'm obsessed with shooting games and that "its sick" .... which I dont blame them for thinking I suppose.

There is no realy Adult gaming market ... there is plenty of kiddish stuff alreayd, Manhunt is kiddy, its sick twisted and a load of crap that could only be liked by teens that think guts is cool (imo) .

Where are the Film/Book like thrillers/adventures/stories ... like I dunno Alan Wake? but step that up a notch, why isnt there more games like "The Sims" because that seems to get good adult attention aswell.

Although I agree that kids generally want to play more violent games, mainly because they know they aren't allowed to play them, but in the end the parents are the decision makers. If they don't want their children playing such violent games, they won't let them. There will always exceptions, but the vast majority of parents will not let their children play something like GeoW.

Denying children centric games would be cutting off potential growth for our industry.

There is no realy Adult gaming market ... there is plenty of kiddish stuff alreayd, Manhunt is kiddy, its sick twisted and a load of crap that could only be liked by teens that think guts is cool (imo) .Meu2k7

That is an excellent point, gaming as a medium is filled with simplicity, childishness andnaiveity. So-called 'adult' games are absolutely embarrassing and instantly collapse when compared to all but the most crude films or books. Almost every attempt at emotion in video-games is a ham-handed, poorly executed, joke. Things are improving- scripting, writing, voice acting, themes addressed- are all getting better but gaming is still puerile. To think that the hilariously bad sex mini-games in God of War are the best example of sexuality in a video-game shows how far we need to grow.

For me there should be a radical shift in perspective, moving the focus from visuals, graphics and physical actiontowards emotion, narrative, AI and social interaction.

Honestly, people are just over reacting.

As others have said, games having been getting easier for a long time. Try playing Super Mario Bros. for the NES and then pick up one of the precious "super hardcore shooters" around today and tell me the latter is harder than the former. Unless you are amazing at platforming and suck at FPS, I doubt you will.

Nintendo talked a lot about WiiFit at E3 and everyone is crying foul. Of course their conferences are going to focus on such games, us "hardcore gamers" are going to find out about games no matter what, it's the games that are geared towards casuals that need to be showcased to the press. Plus, Nintendo still showed off core games. Hell, their biggest release this year is a core game.

[QUOTE="D3monchicken"][QUOTE="Spindoc_SEI"]

I have read some people say that Nintendo used to cater to the hardcore audience before the Gamecube or Nintendo 64, and that with these systems and later on they are now focusing on the general population by releasing casual games to cater to everyone, and while doing so are abandoning their original audience.

So my question is that if Nintendo is basically releasing the same type of games they always have, what makes these titles casual nowadays if they were hardcore when they were originally released?

I would like to see what people think here. I would also like to know what older game was hardcore, since there was no such thing as casual or hardcore before video gaming started to become mainstream in the late '90s.

LINKloco

Things change... What was once a fast car becomes a slow car... what was once a beautiful lady becomes a wrinkly hag... Nintendo games are not captivating in the slightest, really easy, too childish design in the characters and levels, always has bad controllers (especially N64, wtf was that...) and lost most of their mature games with rare. Funny thing is rare is turning childish now... viva pinata... what a hardcore game used to be i would have to say would be Streets of Rage on the Genesis ;P IDK just my views. Now a hardcore game would be something like Killzone 2, Bioshock, Starcraft 2, just epics or games with griddier more adult oriented themes and accessibility. I know i'm probably gonna get flak :(

Wasn't shallow at all, i can't help it if people don't have eyes or don't admit the truth, my job is to inform the dumb :)

[QUOTE="Meu2k7"]There is no realy Adult gaming market ... there is plenty of kiddish stuff alreayd, Manhunt is kiddy, its sick twisted and a load of crap that could only be liked by teens that think guts is cool (imo) .Caviglia

That is an excellent point, gaming as a medium is filled with simplicity, childishness andnaiveity. So-called 'adult' games are absolutely embarrassing and instantly collapse when compared to all but the most crude films or books. Almost every attempt at emotion in video-games is a ham-handed, poorly executed, joke. Things are improving- scripting, writing, voice acting, themes addressed- are all getting better but gaming is still puerile. To think that the hilariously bad sex mini-games in God of War are the best example of sexuality in a video-game shows how far we need to grow.

For me there should be a radical shift in perspective, moving the focus from visuals, graphics and physical actiontowards emotion, narrative, AI and social interaction.

The problem is that games like this wouldn't sell well in the way the market is today. I agree with your point however, which is why I think Silent Hill is one of the best video game series ever.

[QUOTE="Caviglia"]

[QUOTE="Meu2k7"]There is no realy Adult gaming market ... there is plenty of kiddish stuff alreayd, Manhunt is kiddy, its sick twisted and a load of crap that could only be liked by teens that think guts is cool (imo) .Spindoc_SEI

That is an excellent point, gaming as a medium is filled with simplicity, childishness andnaiveity. So-called 'adult' games are absolutely embarrassing and instantly collapse when compared to all but the most crude films or books. Almost every attempt at emotion in video-games is a ham-handed, poorly executed, joke. Things are improving- scripting, writing, voice acting, themes addressed- are all getting better but gaming is still puerile. To think that the hilariously bad sex mini-games in God of War are the best example of sexuality in a video-game shows how far we need to grow.

For me there should be a radical shift in perspective, moving the focus from visuals, graphics and physical actiontowards emotion, narrative, AI and social interaction.

The problem is that games like this wouldn't sell well in the way the market is today. I agree with your point however, which is why I think Silent Hill is one of the best video game series ever.

I think PC adventure games are purely adult games. I don't think you'll ever see some kid ever playing one anyways. Seeing how that market has almost disappeared however is testament to how childish our industry is.

[QUOTE="D3monchicken"]

Things change... What was once a fast car becomes a slow car... what was once a beautiful lady becomes a wrinkly hag... Nintendo games are not captivating in the slightest, really easy, too childish design in the characters and levels, always has bad controllers (especially N64, wtf was that...) and lost most of their mature games with rare. Funny thing is rare is turning childish now... viva pinata... what a hardcore game used to be i would have to say would be Streets of Rage on the Genesis ;P IDK just my views. Now a hardcore game would be something like Killzone 2, Bioshock, Starcraft 2, just epics or games with griddier more adult oriented themes and accessibility. I know i'm probably gonna get flak :(

Spindoc_SEI

You make a good argument here. I think that going from the original Super Mario Bros. to the 3-D incarnations has turned Mario casual now that I think about it after Nick's post and reflecting on your choice of Streets of Rage. I think that the N64 controller moved consoles to use analog sticks as the primary control device though in later iterations, even though the ergonomic design was horrible.

Does childish character and level designs make a game less appealing? I don't think it's the design, but the overall gameplay experience which makes a game good, be it casual or hardcore.

Actually for me childish characters and level design is a turn off. I wouldn't buy Zack and Wiki, i wouldn't buy viva pinata, i wouldn't buy Hot shot's Golf, these games really are a turn off for me, idk why, becuase there is an exception to my tastes... PIKMIN! love that game. Though they all may be good games, today's market has Great games and Good games, i'd rather play the epics that leave an impact on me rather than just sitting back and racing mario around a track. I truly can say that i get immersed into games. For example Killzone had a HUGE impact on me just by the opening cinematic alone, and then starting off in a trench had me excited and against the edge shooting incoming enemies has been infinitely more of an excellent experience for me than almost any other game. And i play games on every console. The gritty war feel the game had with the fog around and dust kicking up while the enemies were yelling with baggy clothing and creepy eyes made the game for me, and i just can't go from something like that to playing in a rainbow colored happy mario bouncing from world to world stomping on enemies and collecting stars. I'm sure that 10 years ago i would be all over SMG, but now that i've experience the new age of gaming, it's really hard to go back and enjoy the older stuff. But if you are looking for a fun 2 player racing game for the PS1 check out RUNNING WILD, was a blast with a friend :) You are animals running through the tracks. It's really short so don't expect much.

The problem is that games like this wouldn't sell well in the way the market is today. I agree with your point however, which is why I think Silent Hill is one of the best video game series ever.Spindoc_SEI

Again I do not disagree, the industry in entrenched in conventions, traditions and expectations that will be hrd to break. However there is no reason why we could not implement various AI and language processing engines (an elaborated version of Façade*, for example) into traditional genres such as the FPS. Take a WWII shooter, you could develop relationships between you and your squad so that the state of the relationship and morale would have an effect of the team's performance during action sequences.

I'm not expecting an audience for interactive dramas to sprout overnight but the technologies and design techniques developed by Façade can be applied to existing genres.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa%C3%A7ade_(interactive_story)

I think PC adventure games are purely adult games. I don't think you'll ever see some kid ever playing one anyways. Seeing how that market has almost disappeared however is testament to how childish our industry is. iunderstand

Certainly PC adventure games, and the point-and-click genre, were always the truly mature games. I do not believe these games have suddenly lost all appeal, rather the industry has conditioned the market to want fast, action-packed, violent and machismo games instead. There has been a resurgance of sorts when it comes to point-and-click and largely the DS is to thank, it goes some way to dispelling the myth that the DS is a 'casual' system. Hotel Dusk is one of the most mature games of the year, forget your FPS games, they are largely mindless and teenage; the adventure and point-and-click genres are some of the few that actually evoke deeper emotions than mere 'fun' or anger.

Actually for me childish characters and level design is a turn off. I wouldn't buy Zack and Wiki, i wouldn't buy viva pinata, i wouldn't buy Hot shot's Golf, these games really are a turn off for me, idk why, becuase there is an exception to my tastes... PIKMIN! D3monchicken

First of all, its not a bad thing to catter to casual's. When I buy a game, sure theres a learning curve that I need to get past then I can enjoy the game.

Making games retardedly hard like Devil May Cry 3 EU release is just stupid.

As I see it, games should have both an easy setting and a hard one, wich most games do. So i really cant understand whats the problem? And I find it rather silly that the remark 'casual gamer' has become more of an insult and that the term 'hardcore gamer' is even mentioned while not laughing.

Video games are made so people can have fun, not to cause frustration like DMC3 etc.

[QUOTE="Spindoc_SEI"]The problem is that games like this wouldn't sell well in the way the market is today. I agree with your point however, which is why I think Silent Hill is one of the best video game series ever.Caviglia

Again I do not disagree, the industry in entrenched in conventions, traditions and expectations that will be hrd to break. However there is no reason why we could notimplement various AI and languageprocessing engines (an elaborated version of Façade*, for example) into traditional genres such as the FPS. Take a WWII shooter, you could develop relationships between you and your squad so that the state of the relationship and morale would have an effect of the team's performance during action sequences.

I'm not expecting an audience for interactive dramas to sprout overnight but the technologies and design techniquesdeveloped by Façade can be applied to existing genres.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa%C3%A7ade_(interactive_story)

That would be a great component in a game like Call of Duty. Could you imagine having interactive scenes with your squad, and if they die they're not replaced be generic copies? Also, once your squad is gone you're all alone.

[QUOTE="Caviglia"]

[QUOTE="Spindoc_SEI"]The problem is that games like this wouldn't sell well in the way the market is today. I agree with your point however, which is why I think Silent Hill is one of the best video game series ever.Spindoc_SEI

Again I do not disagree, the industry in entrenched in conventions, traditions and expectations that will be hrd to break. However there is no reason why we could notimplement various AI and languageprocessing engines (an elaborated version of Façade*, for example) into traditional genres such as the FPS. Take a WWII shooter, you could develop relationships between you and your squad so that the state of the relationship and morale would have an effect of the team's performance during action sequences.

I'm not expecting an audience for interactive dramas to sprout overnight but the technologies and design techniquesdeveloped by Façade can be applied to existing genres.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa%C3%A7ade_(interactive_story)

That would be a great component in a game like Call of Duty. Could you imagine having interactive scenes with your squad, and if they die they're not replaced be generic copies? Also, once your squad is gone you're all alone.

That would be stupid, once most of your squad would be dead you would be all alone against hordes of enemy soldiers. Its like we came full-circle from 6 years ago.

That would be a great component in a game like Call of Duty. Could you imagine having interactive scenes with your squad, and if they die they're not replaced be generic copies? Also, once your squad is gone you're all alone.Spindoc_SEI

That would be great, I love the Fire Emblem series for that very reason. Each character has their own distinct personality and looks, and once they are dead they are gone forever.

... what is this I see? A good discussion on System Wars?! *gasp*

I have read some people say that Nintendo used to cater to the hardcore audience before the Gamecube or Nintendo 64, and that with these systems and later on they are now focusing on the general population by releasing casual games to cater to everyone, and while doing so are abandoning their original audience.

So my question is that if Nintendo is basically releasing the same type of games they always have, what makes these titles casual nowadays if they were hardcore when they were originally released?

I would like to see what people think here. I would also like to know what older game was hardcore, since there was no such thing as casual or hardcore before video gaming started to become mainstream in the late '90s.

Spindoc_SEI

You know that twilight zone episode where the hot girl wakes up and is in a world of pig people? The girl still thinks of herself as hot while the entire city of pig people think she's hideous. That is what casuals taking over the gaming majority have done to games. %99 of casual gamers play FPS, sports and acrade racing games...and games like GTA. Yet, because casuals control the market, they now think that the games THEY like are "hardcore" and the kind of games they play must therefore be "hardcore" also.

That is why you now see so many people talking about "hardcore" games and "M-rated" games as if they are one and the same. Now keep in mind, I'm NOT saying that everyone who plays those games is a "casual." Far from it. What I am saying is that casual gamers like games they don't have to think about, don't want story oranything complicated. They want a game they can pick up and play immediately and blow up stuff. This is why you never see the new "hardcore gamer" talk about RPGs as being hardcore, or niche titles that only a true hardcore gamer would be interested in.

In order to shift the dialogue to match their reality, they've had to invent a new brand of "casual". Somebody who cares about gaming less than they do. So they now talk about kids and moms and grandparents and refer to puzzle games like bejewelled. Once these little puzzle type games are attached to a new view of "casual gamer" they can now write off most Nintendo titles as being casual...based purely on their view of who a casual is (kids and parents, etc).

That is my essay on why most people calling themselves "hardcore" today are really casual posers.

You know that twilight zone episode where the hot girl wakes up and is in a world of pig people? The girl still thinks of herself as hot while the entire city of pig people think she's hideous. That is what casuals taking over the gaming majority have done to games. %99 of casual gamers play FPS, sports and acrade racing games...and games like GTA. Yet, because casuals control the market, they now think that the games THEY like are "hardcore" and the kind of games they play must therefore be "hardcore" also.

That is why you now see so many people talking about "hardcore" games and "M-rated" games as if they are one and the same. Now keep in mind, I'm NOT saying that everyone who plays those games is a "casual." Far from it. What I am saying is that casual gamers like games they don't have to think about, don't want story oranything complicated. They want a game they can pick up and play immediately and blow up stuff. This is why you never see the new "hardcore gamer" talk about RPGs as being hardcore, or niche titles that only a true hardcore gamer would be interested in.

In order to shift the dialogue to match their reality, they've had to invent a new brand of "casual". Somebody who cares about gaming less than they do. So they now talk about kids and moms and grandparents and refer to puzzle games like bejewelled. Once these little puzzle type games are attached to a new view of "casual gamer" they can now write off most Nintendo titles as being casual...based purely on their view of who a casual is (kids and parents, etc).

That is my essay on why most people calling themselves "hardcore" today are really casual posers.

ZIMdoom

A little lengthy, but true. I think any self-respecting and true video-game fan would never call themselves 'hardcore' anyway. I notice that what is deemed as 'hardcore' is exactly what you said- FPS or M-rated games. Show most of these 'hardcore' gamers something like Meteos or Puzzle League on DS and they would dismiss it as 'casual' despite being excellent games. I think this new breed of 'hardcore' largely began to devote much of their time to gaming during the last-gen, it shows through their opinions and ethos.

Nobody can call themselves 'hardcore' if they limit themselves to a select few genres, I bet most of these self-styled hardcore gamers are oblivious to most of gaming history. As for those who grew upin the 8 or 16-bit generations and are now part of this hostile, elitist, gaggle, I despair for them and urge them to take a long, hard look at their roots in gaming. Only when we return to those original and intense feelings we experienced in our first years of gaming can we appreciate the situation today. Sometimes it is necessary to defend an old position in order to create a new one.