Where did Sonic go wrong?

its one of those games that only work when its 2d

I dunno, but then again I dont agree with many people here on sonic games...

I mean ... all ive heard hear is sonic 2 was the best, when quite frankly i think thats obsurd, Sonic 3 and Knuckles was by far the best.

The Handheld games lacked the character in the levels not so much the actual characters.

The 3D ones ... well... its just 1 type of game that only worked in 2D ... like Castlevanias.

I dunno, but then again I dont agree with many people here on sonic games...

I mean ... all ive heard hear is sonic 2 was the best, when quite frankly i think thats obsurd, Sonic 3 and Knuckles was by far the best.

The Handheld games lacked the character in the levels not so much the actual characters.

The 3D ones ... well... its just 1 type of game that only worked in 2D ... like Castlevanias.

PC360Wii

Or Mega Man. Or, to an extent, Super Smash Bros.

What exactly do you mean it only works with 2D? What doesn't feel right when a Sonic level is 3D?

What exactly do you mean it only works with 2D? What doesn't feel right when a Sonic level is 3D?

killered3

The games are just terrible, its basically more of an action slashers kind of game, with limited TEDIOUS platforming...

Theres just noway to describe it.... its just not as immersive as Sonic 3 was for example.

Sonic died with the dreamcast.Marka1700

So funny and so true

[QUOTE="killered3"]

What exactly do you mean it only works with 2D? What doesn't feel right when a Sonic level is 3D?

PC360Wii

The games are just terrible, its basically more of an action slashers kind of game, with limited TEDIOUS platforming...

Theres just noway to describe it.... its just not as immersive as Sonic 3 was for example.

[QUOTE="PC360Wii"][QUOTE="killered3"]

What exactly do you mean it only works with 2D? What doesn't feel right when a Sonic level is 3D?

killered3

The games are just terrible, its basically more of an action slashers kind of game, with limited TEDIOUS platforming...

Theres just noway to describe it.... its just not as immersive as Sonic 3 was for example.

I think what he means is that the gameplay has been consistently bad in 3D, yet pretty damn good in 2D. As for immersiveness, games can still be immersive and tell good stories in 2D, and Sonic 3 proved that. It didn't use a single word, great story. Sonic the Hedgehog had a lot of voice acting and text and such, horrible. Many of the problems that are in the 3D installments (sloppy controls, bad camera, cheap off ledge deaths) aren't really found in the 2D games.

Sonic's first couple 3D games with Sonic Adventure and 2, were not bad, they weren't the same as the originals, but they were still good games.

Megaman's 3D Legends series, was good enough to be the creator's favorite... it seems some devs can get 3D right for a couple games, then go completely in the opposite direction.

What exactly do you mean it only works with 2D? What doesn't feel right when a Sonic level is 3D?

killered3

yea the gameplay in 3D doesn't fit

Ever since Sonic the Hedgedhog went to 3D platforming; critics have despised his recent games. Many say that Sonic should have never left his 2D ways, that his new direction is ruining his franchise. I have been a true Sonic fan since the Genesis days and I personally love his 3D games, he is one of the only characters that have stayed true to his franchise. Think about it, even in 3D; his gameplay is still basically jumping on enemies and collecting rings in level-based environments. When Mario has gone to cleaning funky-looking stains with a clunky water-spraying backpack to now with whatever it is he's doing in th Wii. Do you think Sonic should go back to 2D and that he's different from what he was before?killered3

He went wrong when they made sonic heroes:evil:

There are still good Sonic games: Are they as good as the Genesis cIassics? Hell no. But 2 AA games and 1 A game isn't bad at all. The Sonic games just need less gimmicks and more development time. I'm actually very excited for Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Chronicles, and Sonic and the Black Knight. I'm predicting AA across the board.famicommander

The DS versions are good though, but thats because they are 2.5-d so the gameplay isn't awkward.

[QUOTE="killered3"]Ever since Sonic the Hedgedhog went to 3D platforming; critics have despised his recent games. Many say that Sonic should have never left his 2D ways, that his new direction is ruining his franchise. I have been a true Sonic fan since the Genesis days and I personally love his 3D games, he is one of the only characters that have stayed true to his franchise. Think about it, even in 3D; his gameplay is still basically jumping on enemies and collecting rings in level-based environments. When Mario has gone to cleaning funky-looking stains with a clunky water-spraying backpack to now with whatever it is he's doing in th Wii. Do you think Sonic should go back to 2D and that he's different from what he was before?DanteSuikoden

He went wrong when they made sonic heroes:evil:

It went wrong when it started started becoming a little "too dark" (See Shadow the Hedgehog)

and when they decided to add too much emotional crap. (see Sonic the Disaster furry princess)

On the minor side, when they decided to use 4kids voice actors (not that the originals were that great anyway)

He went wrong when his games became glitchy/bug-ridden and full of trial and error (Sonic Heroes to be precise). The SA games had some weakpoints (noticebly the camera in parts and the treasure hunts) but more than 50% of the time they were very enjoyable and at times nailed the formula perfectly (try anyones first run of Metal Harbour).

The SH came along and the camera issues were worse than ever and ontop of that the game became heavily oriented around trial and error/memory and the player had to constantly play the game safe to avoid falling victim to one of many of the games bugs (bad homing lock-on, glitching directly through a floor or grind rail). This play-it-safe-lest-the-game-breaks style of play went totally against the hedonistically reckless nature that makes up Sonic games. Sonic 06 simply took what sucked in SH and made it even worse.

The 2d games on the advance also messed up in some ways such as unusual physics/speed relationship (and weird sense of gravity which feels very different from the originals) and being focused entirely on speed which left the player doing little other than holding right (in this regard SA1/2 matched the old Sonic's better, even surpassed them in many ways by offering alternate paths in 3d and encouraging the player to modify the beaten path slightly in order to gain higher ranks).

Sonic in 3d has proven it can work bar a few issues that can be fixed (a slow to re-pan camera) but what really killed it was that the 3d formula inexplicably became worse after the initial refinment seen in SA2.

Sonic died with the dreamcast.Marka1700

When michael jackson was making the music for the third sonic the hedgehog:shock: Even towards the end of the second one you could tell the game suddenly changes in tone, and appearance. SegaGenesisfan

[QUOTE="DanteSuikoden"]

[QUOTE="killered3"]Ever since Sonic the Hedgedhog went to 3D platforming; critics have despised his recent games. Many say that Sonic should have never left his 2D ways, that his new direction is ruining his franchise. I have been a true Sonic fan since the Genesis days and I personally love his 3D games, he is one of the only characters that have stayed true to his franchise. Think about it, even in 3D; his gameplay is still basically jumping on enemies and collecting rings in level-based environments. When Mario has gone to cleaning funky-looking stains with a clunky water-spraying backpack to now with whatever it is he's doing in th Wii. Do you think Sonic should go back to 2D and that he's different from what he was before?falconclan

He went wrong when they made sonic heroes:evil:

And this all started with sonic heroes when they took his speed away and made it a team based platformer and i think they added 4 new characters in that game. No sports in it though :P

[QUOTE="falconclan"][QUOTE="DanteSuikoden"]

[QUOTE="killered3"]Ever since Sonic the Hedgedhog went to 3D platforming; critics have despised his recent games. Many say that Sonic should have never left his 2D ways, that his new direction is ruining his franchise. I have been a true Sonic fan since the Genesis days and I personally love his 3D games, he is one of the only characters that have stayed true to his franchise. Think about it, even in 3D; his gameplay is still basically jumping on enemies and collecting rings in level-based environments. When Mario has gone to cleaning funky-looking stains with a clunky water-spraying backpack to now with whatever it is he's doing in th Wii. Do you think Sonic should go back to 2D and that he's different from what he was before?DanteSuikoden

He went wrong when they made sonic heroes:evil:

And this all started with sonic heroes when they took his speed away and made it a team based platformer and i think they added 4 new characters in that game. No sports in it though :P

There are still good Sonic games: Are they as good as the Genesis cIassics? Hell no. But 2 AA games and 1 A game isn't bad at all. The Sonic games just need less gimmicks and more development time. I'm actually very excited for Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Chronicles, and Sonic and the Black Knight. I'm predicting AA across the board.famicommander

Yeah, I genuinely really think they should take the criticism to heart properly and make a fully 2D Sonic. I'm talking actual 2D, not 3D side-scroller. It would certainly be different for nowadays, and I think it could still be very visually appealing.

They also need to cut the crappy stories that think they're epic and imaginative but really are about as deep as a paddling pool.

Sonic adventure was easily the transitional equivalent of "Mario 64" during it's time--which in my eyes, means that this game was and still is easily the most timeless and most enjoyable "Sonic" game I have ever had the pleasure of playing. It astounding to me how some people actually believe no good can come from a Sonic 3-D game after playing this game--great gameplay, different perspective stories, amazing soundtrack, great graphics(for it's time), and ect ect. It had a alot of issues, but that failed to take away from the overall experience.

In my opinion, I don't think these games should aim backwards towards the 2-D days(other then giving us the "freeing the animal" aspect), nor even it's gameplay **** which I realize now was entirely too damn linear to have any long lasting appeal now--it'll most likely turn into a short temporary nostalgic fix. Even if they improved upon that in alot of ways, I just rather not have that dated ****anymore unless it's for the NDS or PSP. I loved Sonic 2, 3, and S&N as much as any other Sonic fan, but I just personally feel it's kind of a ridiculous idea when the technological aspect of gaming is constantly advancing. I thought that whole purpose was evolution--so im like, why go backwards when a great 3-D one is clearly possible anyway?

All I ever read now is "Sonic is dead to me" or "Sonic should go back to the 2-D days". I can literally guess every reply in a Sonic thread now before even clicking inside the thread.

I think the only real issue with Sonic being in 3-D, is that they simply don't understand how to build upon the transitional foundation that Sonic Adventure has laid out. "Sonic Adventure 2" wasn't as good as the first, but I feel it was truely the last great 3-D Sonic game--it's what they did with they're characters afterwards, they're seemingly lack of ability to perfect camera issues, create a decent story concept, and other things that's causing problems now.

Shadow should have been dead and stayed dead(I loved him, but that was the end--I dont even know who the real shadow is anymore with all this prototype garbage here and there). I personally support them trying they're current new ideas, even if most of them aren't very enticing. They'll get it right eventually. It's sad to know though that Sonic 06, had so much potential to make everything right again, but was just executed poorly in so many ways.

it went wrong the day sonic went multi platform and also the day humans were introduced into the gameNuclearFreedom

I've never understood sonic adventure's praise. It makes no sense to me. The camera's jerky, he's slow, the platforming is broken, eneimes are glorified spring boards, the voice acting is atrocious. Sonic stopped on the sega genesis to me.goblaa

I didn't think the SA games were slow at all and the camerea in the first two SA games in Sonic's stages didn't present too many issues because the paths branched linearly so the camera only go confused when it had to pan-and-rotate (a pain in the ass in the space-rail stages at the end of SA2). All the other issues you mention are true to varying extents but that didn't change the fact that what they got right came together really well at times.

The enemies being springboards is basically true of the originals as well, they aren't threatening but simply exist for you to chain together bounce kills for speed/momentum and SA basically did the same thing in 3d.

When they decided speed was more important than actual gameplay. They need the mix of both speed and platforming, and they don't seem to understand that. Everyone loves Sonic Rush but it sucks plain anhd simple because it relies on speed and it feels like all your doing is holding down a button and jumping once or twice.

[QUOTE="PC360Wii"]

I dunno, but then again I dont agree with many people here on sonic games...

I mean ... all ive heard hear is sonic 2 was the best, when quite frankly i think thats obsurd, Sonic 3 and Knuckles was by far the best.

The Handheld games lacked the character in the levels not so much the actual characters.

The 3D ones ... well... its just 1 type of game that only worked in 2D ... like Castlevanias.

Video_Game_King

Or Mega Man. Or, to an extent, Super Smash Bros.

To an extent Smash Bros? Whaaa? It's never been 2d...

He went wrong when they thought anyone gave a damn about the storyline.Senor_Kami

its one of those games that only work when its 2d

LinKuei_warrior

if nintendo held the franchise, i bet they'd make a great 3D sonic

Sonic went wrong when Sonic Team tried to give their games more of a story and then they started making more annoying characters.

Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 were pretty solid though.