Where is the performance I been hearing about yet a potatoes pc build can do better. All these talk about how maximize performance can be obtain yet you rarely see it. Where's getting the fullest out of a game when most game can only get the bare minimum.
Because its becoming redundant. You can raw power through most game requirements now on PC because there are less "Pushers" and hardware is cheaper than its ever been.
On the console side... their architecture is now just PC parts... with less overhead on the OS ... but even so, these OS are far more demanding than even past iterations. I can have a PC running 100s of processes and tons of applications... without really effecting games in this day and age. I've got 16GB RAM for gods sake... and could easily get 32 if I so choose. SSD's are a god send as well. On a console? not so much....
Only a HANDFUL of console games push the boundaries... these are typically Sony first party games where they spend MILLIONS on large art teams that crap every little nook out of the system, and create games like Uncharted or the ORder ... small corridor games because they simply can't build bigger/more ambitious games that are aimed at looking good... its physically impossible. Even then, these games make resolution or framerate sacrifices... or use cheap effects that blur everything instead of giving you that CRISP experience.
Seems largely a wasted effort in my head, but since muppets in the few million like limited repetitive popping galleries with cheap "oh look that ledge is cracking" thrills as the only way to break it up.... I'm obviously wrong from a mainstream perspective.
Because a lot of people still don't realize (or don't want to accept) that optimization has its limitations. At some point you hit the wall and then are forced to cut corners. These Consoles have PC architecture. It's a known territory. It's not like devs are not familiar with the architecture and having trouble taking full advantage of the hardware, like PS3 or Xbox 360.
The fact is, these Consoles have already been maxed out. Games like Witcher 3 are using every last drop of power these Consoles can offer. Devs have hit the wall. From now on improvement in some aspects of the graphics will mean compromises in other areas like smaller levels or lower frame rates, poor draw distance, lower texture resolution etc.
There are some things that hardware can't handle. No amount of "teh optimization" can run it. For example, you can't run a game like Witcher 3 on PS3 and Xbox 360. Similarly, there are some current gen games that are too demanding for current Consoles, so devs are forced to cut corners or release flashy graphics with poor performance, because kids these days don't care about good gameplay or performance but graphics, that are still inferior to PC.
Because a lot of people still don't realize (or don't want to accept) that optimization has its limitations. At some point you hit the wall and then are forced to cut corners. These Consoles have PC architecture. It's a known territory. It's not like devs are not familiar with the architecture and having trouble taking full advantage of the hardware, like PS3 or Xbox 360.
The fact is, these Consoles have already been maxed out. Games like Witcher 3 are using every last drop of power these Consoles can offer. Devs have hit the wall. From now on improvement in some aspects of the graphics will mean compromises in other areas like smaller levels or lower frame rates, poor draw distance, lower texture resolution etc.
There are some things that hardware can't handle. No amount of "teh optimization" can run it. For example, you can't run a game like Witcher 3 on PS3 and Xbox 360. Similarly, there are some current gen games that are too demanding for current Consoles, so devs are forced to cut corners or release flashy graphics with poor performance, because kids these days don't care about good gameplay or performance but graphics, that are still inferior to PC.
Compromises are a part of console optimization, Right now both consoles suffer from improper cpu utilization, or being limited by older API methods. Once Direct X12 standards take affect both console will see better hardware usage with multiplats. Only 1st party dev's from Sony have been able to get the most of their console because of the money and effort given to do so to maximize usage.
However the hardware itself is still the limiting factor no matter how well they code and tweak compromises will take place and we will never see gains like we have seen before in past gens since these consoles are gimped PC's with low overhead based environments.
Compromises are a part of console optimization, Right now both consoles suffer from improper cpu utilization, or being limited by older API methods. Once Direct X12 standards take affect both console will see better hardware usage with multiplats. Only 1st party dev's from Sony have been able to get the most of their console because of the money and effort given to do so to maximize usage.
However the hardware itself is still the limiting factor no matter how well they code and tweak compromises will take place and we will never see gains like we have seen before in past gens since these consoles are gimped PC's with low overhead based environments.
Yep, though I disagree with we won't see big improvements in exclusives and games overall, they still have a lot of juice in their tanks.
Certainly the ceiling is lower than on the Ps3 (or rather games have gotten closer to the ceiling faster), but even straight forward consoles like the Ps1 and Xbox saw huge improvements in games over time.
@AM-Gamer told me you reallly can't seeth difference. FPS and Resolution are worthless in the big scheme. Multiplats are basically the same. Right my bro AMGAMER?
Of course optimization occurs, it's just that some games still run like shit. Unfortunately, there isn't much accountability, and forcing your product out the door (if it's a big enough name) guarantees sales regardless of quality, as seen with Fallout 4.
Yep, though I disagree with we won't see big improvements in exclusives and games overall, they still have a lot of juice in their tanks.
Certainly the ceiling is lower than on the Ps3 (or rather games have gotten closer to the ceiling faster), but even straight forward consoles like the Ps1 and Xbox saw huge improvements in games over time.
These consoles do not have alot of juice left, we are talking about systems with 8 core tablet based cpu with gpu's not much better then AMD 7850/270 type gpu or worse. There is only so much you can do with that.... We already have seen a handful of games on PS4 that makes use of modern API features bypassing limited cpu usage vs seen with almost every other game. And yet we still see compromises.
There is a set amount of processing power that the hardware can do. All we can expect is more efficient usage(nothing like ps3/360). Only things to expect is more stabilized performance and introduction of new resource saving techniques to do the same thing before.
Yep, though I disagree with we won't see big improvements in exclusives and games overall, they still have a lot of juice in their tanks.
Certainly the ceiling is lower than on the Ps3 (or rather games have gotten closer to the ceiling faster), but even straight forward consoles like the Ps1 and Xbox saw huge improvements in games over time.
These console do not have alot of juice left, we are talking about 8 core tablet based cpu with gpu's no better then 7870/270 type gpu. There is only so much you can do with that.... We already have seen a handle of games on PS4 that makes use of modern API features bypassing limited cpu usage seen with almost every other game. And yet we still see compromises.
There was only so much devs could do with the Xbox, but it saw big improvements in games. Being powerful for its time doesn't negate that it was fixed hardware.
Games coming out next year show huge improvements over current games, this gen only just started. Ps4 has not been tapped at all, the Order was as much of a technical flop as it was a game. Killzone and infamous are still the most impressive games on that console, and they're just launch window games. Xbox has a lot left as well.
There was only so much devs could do with the Xbox, but it saw big improvements in games. Being powerful for its time doesn't negate that it was fixed hardware.
Games coming out next year show huge improvements over current games, this gen only just started. Ps4 has not been tapped at all, the Order was as much of a technical flop as it was a game.
It saw big improvements because of shift in how games were being created to make use of the new multithreaded cpus and unified shader standard in gpus. The 360 had the first unified shader based gpu on the market a year before PC's. So game engines were still designed to be not shader intensive, and single threaded. The 360 also had a triple core cpu, during the era of single threaded game engines. So developers started to design and code for 360 in mind which in-turn started to maximize the consoles abilities and as they learned with the new hardware and coding so did the abilities of the graphics.
Now fast forward to now, Consoles are not supporting top tier hardware, they are emulating PC standards, using same standards in coding, using same hardware standards. There is nothing *new* to really learn,
The coding and hardware usage is being virtually tapped out now. All they can do is tweak and find new ways of saving resources to put elsewhere. We wont see huge improvements, all we will see are incremental additions. We will not see like what we did in early days of last gen to end.
Where is the performance I been hearing about yet a potatoes pc build can do better. All these talk about how maximize performance can be obtain yet you rarely see it. Where's getting the fullest out of a game when most game can only get the bare minimum.
PS4 could gain another 20 percent with Async compute usage. The problem is the lowest common denominator in relation to GPU's feature set usage.
PS4 gains another ~20 percent with Async compute usage with already low overhead APIs.
@04dcarraher: When I said Xbox I meant the OG Xbox.
You mean to tell me you don't think Uncharted 4 looks much better than Killzone? You don't see the advanced global illumination, PBR and particle effects in FF 15? How amazing Nier 2 looks and it's 60fps? Scalebound's an open world full 1080p game with advanced lighting and particle effects, on a console that struggles with 1080p. Quantum break is looking better than any shooter on the console thus far.
Nah man, we've only just begun, but I do agree the ceiling isn't quite as high as last gen.
Dont hype unreleased games, when all we have are bullshots,promos etc... wait until finial game is released, ND games always look worse when released vs pre-release media shown, PBR is nothing new with lighting technique , Ryse even uses that feature, particles usage is adjustable. Direct x 12 FF15 demo took four high end maxwell gpu's to render. expecting mind blowing graphics from PS4 or X1 is just wishful thinking.
You have cpu limitations, gpu limitations, memory usage limits as well, devs already know whats in the those consoles and how to code for them. All they can do is tweak and adjust and find ways to max resources at hand, we are not going to see massive gains
Today, the optimization is in the games design itself. Given the power gap between a high end pc and the ps4, games could be completely different, but aren't because this design is structured around consoles.
Because gamers will bitch to the highest of heavens it's the hardware (which is technically true), and not enough that the developers adjust to the weakness of the hardware. Back in the day when games weren't trying to sell themselves solely on a spectacle and shiny shit, the gameplay dictated what they could and could not do. Were there unpolished games? **** yeah, but the cream of the crop at least delivered rock solid stuff. Nowadays? It's every excuse in the book for why games can't run rock solid frames, or have all these tech issues. It's the last gen consoles fault, that certain things played out a certain way.
Last I checked Nintendos games? pretty fucking well optimized, and run fantastic.
you people: durp they don't push anything, make the same shit
Um **** you, this entire gen has been a bunch of devs making the same games they always did with like one or two exceptions at most. What's their excuse?
Too long; didn't read: It's mostly because devs aren't making games that adjust to weaker hardware to have stable performance, because that's not a priority. And gamers are cool with that.
Because gamers will bitch to the highest of heavens it's the hardware (which is technically true), and not enough that the developers adjust to the weakness of the hardware. Back in the day when games weren't trying to sell themselves solely on a spectacle and shiny shit, the gameplay dictated what they could and could not do. Were there unpolished games? **** yeah, but the cream of the crop at least delivered rock solid stuff. Nowadays? It's every excuse in the book for why games can't run rock solid frames, or have all these tech issues. It's the last gen consoles fault, that certain things played out a certain way.
Last I checked Nintendos games? pretty fucking well optimized, and run fantastic.
you people: durp they don't push anything, make the same shit
Um **** you, this entire gen has been a bunch of devs making the same games they always did with like one or two exceptions at most. What's their excuse?
Too long; didn't read: It's mostly because devs aren't making games that adjust to weaker hardware to have stable performance, because that's not a priority. And gamers are cool with that.
Buying a PS4 is kind of like someone owning a dvd player and then buying an HDdvd player.
@MBirdy88: @DarthRamms: Corridor games? Then why is Horizon:ZD one of the best looking games and it's open world. Infamous SS is also easily one of the best looking games on the platform and it's open world.
So again first party devs are showing they are the best.
ND games always look worse when released vs pre-release media shown,
Not gameplay wise, they look better if anything.
On Pbr already being implemented, yes but FF 15 and other games will take it to the next level.
But ok, just wait until next year.
Proof?
On topic, didn't you see how Naughty Duds with their optimizations and binary coding have gotten 2X out of teh 900pStation with 900@40FPS. Scotty must be really proud of the Naughty Duds.
ND games always look worse when released vs pre-release media shown,
Not gameplay wise, they look better if anything.
On Pbr already being implemented, yes but FF 15 and other games will take it to the next level.
But ok, just wait until next year.
Proof?
On topic, didn't you see how Naughty Duds with their optimizations and binary coding have gotten 2X out of teh 900pStation with 900@40FPS. Scotty must be really proud of the Naughty Duds.
Look around for yourself. Have you played the games even? Far as I can tell, people use 2 examples to try and say ND downgrades their games, that one pre rendered cutscene in UC3 with the crew on the bus, and the 60fps UC4 teaser trailer. Because yeah, let's use pre rendered footage to claim the actual game was downgraded, damn you geniuses caught ND red handed. Besides that, some non gameplay sections in these games are actually real time. That e3 Uc2 demo from 2009? Game looks just like that. The Uc3 shipwreck demo? Same.
On the subject of the multiplayer portions of their games, UC2 looked noticeably worse and they straight up bastardized the graphics in Uc3's multiplayer, so i'm not surprised they're having a tough time optimizing Uc4's multi, they clearly don't give that portion of their games the same treatment as the single player. But these games stand on their single player, except that UC2's multi was actually great for a while. I don't see why you'd be using multiplayer graphics as fanboy ammo in the first place, but whatever you guys can get to fight over which console is less shit at the moment.
ND games always look worse when released vs pre-release media shown,
Not gameplay wise, they look better if anything.
On Pbr already being implemented, yes but FF 15 and other games will take it to the next level.
But ok, just wait until next year.
Proof?
On topic, didn't you see how Naughty Duds with their optimizations and binary coding have gotten 2X out of teh 900pStation with 900@40FPS. Scotty must be really proud of the Naughty Duds.
Look around for yourself. Have you played the games even? Far as I can tell, people use 2 examples to try and say ND downgrades their games, that one pre rendered cutscene in UC3 with the crew on the bus, and the 60fps UC4 teaser trailer. Because yeah, let's use pre rendered footage to claim the actual game was downgraded, damn you geniuses caught ND red handed. Besides that, some non gameplay sections in these games are actually real time. That e3 Uc2 demo from 2009? Game looks just like that. The Uc3 shipwreck demo? Same.
On the subject of the multiplayer portions of their games, UC2 looked noticeably worse and they straight up bastardized the graphics in Uc3's multiplayer, so i'm not surprised they're having a tough time optimizing Uc4's multi, they clearly don't give that portion of their games the same treatment as the single player. But these games stand on their single player, except that UC2's multi was actually great for a while. I don't see why you'd be using multiplayer graphics as fanboy ammo in the first place, but whatever you guys can get to fight over which console is less shit at the moment.
Did you just say two examples? Countless comparisons were posted and not just by me dozens of users. Last I remember was in response to Shewgenja, AM-Retard and Speak_Low. Funny all of the cows just vanishes at that moment.
Let me tell yu the downgraded sections of the top of my head, UC2 original reveal in VGA 2008 to the final game. UC3 shipreck commericals and the final game. The desert part, the chase scene, the airport scene. TLOU baked lighting in the final game. There are so much more.
That's what i was saying and many others were as well. There's nothing to learn when your console is just a low end pc (Walmart level gaming rig). You can't improve a potato and that is why i'd prefer something sophisticated like the Cell (prototype hardware made for a single console and not from the shelf trash components that are easy to develop for but outdated years before the console is even released) for the next generation.
The problem with consoles nowadays (this gen + last gen) is not how far they can push the hardware, but how frequently they fail to maintain even the bare minimum.
Games that cannot maintain even a mere 30 fps consistently are worthy of scrutiny.
@AM-Gamer: everytime you use infamous I just laugh... probably one of the most empty sandbox experiences around... pretty though... never too much going on at any given time.... most of it is just geometry with the occasional A.I of which I dont think succeeds 10 enemies at any given point.
Horizons? I have to see when it releases. it looks great. but again previews are previews. we'l see.
Because gamers will bitch to the highest of heavens it's the hardware (which is technically true), and not enough that the developers adjust to the weakness of the hardware. Back in the day when games weren't trying to sell themselves solely on a spectacle and shiny shit, the gameplay dictated what they could and could not do. Were there unpolished games? **** yeah, but the cream of the crop at least delivered rock solid stuff. Nowadays? It's every excuse in the book for why games can't run rock solid frames, or have all these tech issues. It's the last gen consoles fault, that certain things played out a certain way.
Last I checked Nintendos games? pretty fucking well optimized, and run fantastic.
you people: durp they don't push anything, make the same shit
Um **** you, this entire gen has been a bunch of devs making the same games they always did with like one or two exceptions at most. What's their excuse?
Too long; didn't read: It's mostly because devs aren't making games that adjust to weaker hardware to have stable performance, because that's not a priority. And gamers are cool with that.
Buying a PS4 is kind of like someone owning a dvd player and then buying an HDdvd player.
Sure, I'm not saying these machines aren't gimped, they absolutely are, but at the end of the day Nintendo at least works to their platforms strenght for better or worse. It's one thing we get trail blazers willing to push the envelope, but when it's the same old shit? The least they can do is get to a point where the optimization is there. I like From Software's games a lot, back when they were the scrappy team that came out of nowhere to deliver on Demon's Souls? Yeah that was admirable. Now that Dark Souls routinely sells well over a million, and Bloodborne sells well over a million, it's time the sequels focused on tightening up performance. It isn't like those games sell on pretty graphics anyway.
@MBirdy88: With NPC and enemies I've counted around 20. But it's still the best looking open world game on the console and it came out in March of 2014. I'd say it's impressive to achieve that so early.
@zeeshanhaider: First of all those pics are small and blurry, but let's have a look. The first comparison, one pic is using blur and has flat water, and they turned up the lighting and added swaying to the boats for the final game. The second they just took off his gun strap and turned up the lighting, (and the extra npc would make it more intensive as well) and the 3rd, the shots are just taken at different angles. I see no loss in detail, just improvement.
Where is the performance I been hearing about yet a potatoes pc build can do better. All these talk about how maximize performance can be obtain yet you rarely see it. Where's getting the fullest out of a game when most game can only get the bare minimum.
.. Consoles are not unique architectures now.. They are glorified low end closed pc's.. There is no special optimization any mnore.
@zeeshanhaider: First of all those pics are small and blurry, but let's have a look. The first comparison, one pic is using blur and has flat water, and they turned up the lighting and added swaying to the boats for the final game. The second they just took off his gun strap and turned up the lighting, (and the extra npc would make it more intensive as well) and the 3rd, the shots are just taken at different angles. I see no loss in detail, just improvement.
Yes, they are blurry. I was actually looking for the gif but found these. All these were actually frames from a gif, but I couldn't find it. Anyway, first pic is very substantial difference, both in shaders, animations and polygons. Gif would have illustrated it much better. You can easily see the reduction in shader quality and water detail even from these frames, though gif would have illustrated it better. Second was again just a frame ut it again showed the removal of gun strap and I sill remember after breaking the window there were lack of shadows. And third frame, I don't recal what was it trying to show.
@MBirdy88: @DarthRamms: Corridor games? Then why is Horizon:ZD one of the best looking games and it's open world. Infamous SS is also easily one of the best looking games on the platform and it's open world.
So again first party devs are showing they are the best.
That why they have low quality foliage right? Quite obvious in close pictures.
Because its becoming redundant. You can raw power through most game requirements now on PC because there are less "Pushers" and hardware is cheaper than its ever been.
On the console side... their architecture is now just PC parts... with less overhead on the OS ... but even so, these OS are far more demanding than even past iterations. I can have a PC running 100s of processes and tons of applications... without really effecting games in this day and age. I've got 16GB RAM for gods sake... and could easily get 32 if I so choose. SSD's are a god send as well. On a console? not so much....
Only a HANDFUL of console games push the boundaries... these are typically Sony first party games where they spend MILLIONS on large art teams that crap every little nook out of the system, and create games like Uncharted or the ORder ... small corridor games because they simply can't build bigger/more ambitious games that are aimed at looking good... its physically impossible. Even then, these games make resolution or framerate sacrifices... or use cheap effects that blur everything instead of giving you that CRISP experience.
Seems largely a wasted effort in my head, but since muppets in the few million like limited repetitive popping galleries with cheap "oh look that ledge is cracking" thrills as the only way to break it up.... I'm obviously wrong from a mainstream perspective.
have you seen the sections in UC4, they no longer are corridors
@MBirdy88: @DarthRamms: Corridor games? Then why is Horizon:ZD one of the best looking games and it's open world. Infamous SS is also easily one of the best looking games on the platform and it's open world.
So again first party devs are showing they are the best.
That why they have low quality foliage right? Quite obvious in close pictures.
You will find console optimization only from the first party titles, because third party games like ubisoft, EA and so on could not give less of a ****.
Thats what happens when you bring your plattform closer and closer to PC.
Because a lot of people still don't realize (or don't want to accept) that optimization has its limitations. At some point you hit the wall and then are forced to cut corners. These Consoles have PC architecture. It's a known territory. It's not like devs are not familiar with the architecture and having trouble taking full advantage of the hardware, like PS3 or Xbox 360.
The fact is, these Consoles have already been maxed out. Games like Witcher 3 are using every last drop of power these Consoles can offer. Devs have hit the wall. From now on improvement in some aspects of the graphics will mean compromises in other areas like smaller levels or lower frame rates, poor draw distance, lower texture resolution etc.
There are some things that hardware can't handle. No amount of "teh optimization" can run it. For example, you can't run a game like Witcher 3 on PS3 and Xbox 360. Similarly, there are some current gen games that are too demanding for current Consoles, so devs are forced to cut corners or release flashy graphics with poor performance, because kids these days don't care about good gameplay or performance but graphics, that are still inferior to PC.
@MBirdy88: @DarthRamms: Corridor games? Then why is Horizon:ZD one of the best looking games and it's open world. Infamous SS is also easily one of the best looking games on the platform and it's open world.
So again first party devs are showing they are the best.
That why they have low quality foliage right? Quite obvious in close pictures.
@tushar172787: very well then... Foliage isn't the easiest to recreate in a game....especially when it focuses on a wide variety of priorities.... Narrative, gameplay mechanics...etc
wow, you all sound like spoiled little brat. PC games are contructed around consol games, pulishing a turd doesn't change the fact that is it a turd. Sure it is sad that we have frame rate drop and not so much a jump in graphics but every gen had their short coming.
nothing is prefect and of course now that they can patch their games ... well
I have to admit, devs are being lazy with console optimisation. There is so much you could do on the PS4 to optimised the game around the hardware configuration, not many devs even use GPU compute for example, I know that's not console specific, but if they are not even doing that then then nothing else going to be done. .
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