Where's the logic in Kinect > Move? (read 1st post)

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Kane04

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#1 Kane04
Member since 2006 • 2115 Posts

This must be the new dish on SW motion control, PS3 vs 360. So many threads on this, problem is i fail to see the logic in it, so help me out.

Before you give your opinion read this:

Let me start by saying i never got Lemmings logic, look at Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD.

They said Blu-Ray would fail because it was made by Sony, just like Betamax. o_O
Where is the logic?
If they wanna compare the past facts and try to predict the future they should know the VHS won over the Betamax because it had higher storage capacity, a lot of movies needed to be on 2 Betamax videocassettes but they fit on just 1 VHS.
So history told us (at least in this case) higher storage = win. Where's the logic in saying Blu-Ray would died like Betamax just because it was made by Sony?

Now with that in mind, Motion Controllers

There's no hiding that both Move or Kinect bring nothing really new.

The difference is where they are getting the ideas from.

Start by looking at this, i know that video is a little "bias" but the point is good, what Kinect does, the eyetoy on the PS2 already did. And that includes voice recognition, titles like Lifeline were played with voice recognition, in SOCOM you could orders for them to move, and the list goes on.
And even things like Milo were already done (not on PS2), google "Verbot" to find more about it if you like.

Now have you notice this things that were on the PS2 are not on the PS3? You know why? Because they weren't really successful.

So Sony made Move, roughly a Wii Motion + 2.0, more accuracy and precision.

Think about what you are about to read logically before answer...
- Kinect copies a formula from last gen, currently it really doesn't do anything that far ahead from the eyetoy or the PS2 game that had voice recognition, and those kinda "fail", its a failed formula if you like.
- Move copies the Wii formula, no need to tell the crazy high numbers that are the Wii sales, its a winning formula, tested and proven.

Knowing this, where is the logic in saying Kinect > Move?

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MrAmolou

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#2 MrAmolou
Member since 2009 • 59 Posts

I agree.

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locopatho

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#3 locopatho
Member since 2003 • 24300 Posts
I think they will both kinda suck, but Move is definately looking better at the mo.
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-Snooze-

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#6 -Snooze-
Member since 2009 • 7304 Posts

MS will market the hell out of kinect. Yeah it sucks, but chances are it'll be financially more successfull then Move, atleast in the begining.

I think Move be vastly better and more in tune with "core" gamers.

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Kane04

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#7 Kane04
Member since 2006 • 2115 Posts

The logic is that you're extremely biased and both products are crap.

waltefmoney


How can i be bias if I'm not giving an opinion?

I just wrote down the facts.

Kinect is a copy of the Eyetoy.
Move is a copy of the wii controller.

Eyetoy formula was never really successful.
Wii formula is extremely successful.

We're talking about something that copies an old unsuccessful formula, adds pretty much nothing new.
And something that copies a currentextremely successfulformula and improves it considerably.

Yet there are people saying Kinect > Move.

I'm not saying which one is better or worst, I'm asking where is the logic in saying that?

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waltefmoney

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#8 waltefmoney
Member since 2010 • 18030 Posts

[QUOTE="waltefmoney"]

The logic is that you're extremely biased and both products are crap.

Kane04

How can i be bias if I'm not giving an opinion? I just wrote down the facts. Kinect is a copy of the Eyetoy. Move is a copy of the wii controller. Eyetoy formula was never really successful. Wii formula is extremely successful. We're talking about something that copies an old unsuccessful formula, adds pretty much nothing new. And something that copies a current formula and improves it considerably. Yet there are people saying Kinect > Move. I'm not saying which one is better or worst, I'm asking where is the logic in saying that?

That is why you're biased. But I'll give you something - Kinect is 3D, EyeToy was 2D.

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Kane04

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#9 Kane04
Member since 2006 • 2115 Posts

[QUOTE="Kane04"][QUOTE="waltefmoney"](...)adds pretty much nothing new.(...)waltefmoney

That is why you're biased. But I'll give you something - Kinect is 3D, EyeToy was 2D.

And yet the games are played the same way with really no diference, look at the video i post http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YieH4XvJm4 Check EyeToy: Kinetic (PS2) After 5 years and in a console many times more powerful than the PS2, what does Kinect have to show in compassion? Wheres the evolution?
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waltefmoney

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#10 waltefmoney
Member since 2010 • 18030 Posts

[QUOTE="waltefmoney"]

[QUOTE="Kane04"][QUOTE="waltefmoney"](...)adds pretty much nothing new.(...)Kane04

That is why you're biased. But I'll give you something - Kinect is 3D, EyeToy was 2D.

And yet the games are played the same way with really no diference, look at the video i post http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YieH4XvJm4 Check EyeToy: Kinetic (PS2) After 5 years and in a console many times more powerful than the PS2, what does Kinect have to show in compassion? Wheres the evolution?

Well, Wii games and Move games are pretty much played exactly the same. So it must mean Move adds nothing to the formula?

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DroidPhysX

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#11 DroidPhysX
Member since 2010 • 17098 Posts

Blu Ray was made by Sony? :?

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waltefmoney

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#12 waltefmoney
Member since 2010 • 18030 Posts

Blu Ray was made by Sony? :?

DroidPhysX

Uhm, Blu Ray is a technology developed by Sony, Panasonic, Pioneer, Philips, Thomson, LG (Lucky GoldStar) Electronics, Hitachi, Sharp, and Samsung.

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DroidPhysX

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#13 DroidPhysX
Member since 2010 • 17098 Posts

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]

Blu Ray was made by Sony? :?

waltefmoney

Uhm, Blu Ray is a technology developed by Sony, Panasonic, Pioneer, Philips, Thomson, LG (Lucky GoldStar) Electronics, Hitachi, Sharp, and Samsung.

TC is stating Sony made it...

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HavocV3

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#14 HavocV3
Member since 2009 • 8068 Posts

[QUOTE="waltefmoney"]

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]

Blu Ray was made by Sony? :?

DroidPhysX

Uhm, Blu Ray is a technology developed by Sony, Panasonic, Pioneer, Philips, Thomson, LG (Lucky GoldStar) Electronics, Hitachi, Sharp, and Samsung.

TC is stating Sony made it...

well then it's safe to assume he thinks Sony owns it as well?:P

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Kane04

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#16 Kane04
Member since 2006 • 2115 Posts

Well, Wii games and Move games are pretty much played exactly the same. So it must mean Move adds nothing to the formula?

waltefmoney

Exacly.

I said that in my 1st post.

Now the difference.

Eyetoy was never successful, Wii is.

How much different is the Kinect from this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au4d5anfjnA
If there's not much difference, how can logically, Kinect and that old, used, never successful, formula beat Move, with a current, very successful, formula?

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monson21502

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#17 monson21502
Member since 2009 • 8230 Posts

both hd dvd and betamax was better. but both didnt have support. just like the psp was better then the ds but ds got more support.

and kinect does bring something new... just look at the new brain age. even though there has been countless brain age games on 2 systems ds and wii brain age kinect will offer whole new gameplay. something move cant match. since sony choose to follow nintendo so close... thats ho kinect will win this battle imo. it can make ideas into new and fresh gameplay

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waltefmoney

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#18 waltefmoney
Member since 2010 • 18030 Posts

Exacly.

I said that in my 1st post.

Now the difference.

Eyetoy was never successful, Wii is.

Kane04

Because Sony gave up on EyeToy too quickly and didn't invest a fraction of what Microsoft is investing into Kinect marketing.

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SecretPolice

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#19 SecretPolice
Member since 2007 • 45561 Posts

Kinect has far more potential that isn't being utilized upon it's release so by that...... Logic :P, Kinect gamers will likely get tons of software driven continual advancement & improvement over it's life cycle and Move, not so much.

Logically then, Kinect > Move

But seriously, I don't really care which witch is which. :P

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Blaze-Agent

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#20 Blaze-Agent
Member since 2010 • 1951 Posts

MS will market the hell out of kinect. Yeah it sucks, but chances are it'll be financially more successfull then Move, atleast in the begining.

I think Move be vastly better and more in tune with "core" gamers.

-Snooze-

i only see moderate success in Us and Flop everywhere else.

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Kane04

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#21 Kane04
Member since 2006 • 2115 Posts

Kinect has far more potential that isn't being utilized upon it's release so by that...... Logic :P, Kinect gamers will likely get tons of software driven continual advancement & improvement over it's life cycle and Move, not so much.

Logically then, Kinect > Move

But seriously, I don't really care which witch is which. :P

SecretPolice
There's no logic in that :P Games like Gears of War can't be played with Kinect, there will be Kinect games, and regular games, that was another reason why the Eyetoy was unsuccessful. As far as potential goes pretty much any game can be adapt to be played with Move, see on Killzone 3. And by that logic Sony can force devs to make games compatible with Move, like the Trophies, and that will ensure more games, including "hardcore" games compatible with the Move making it a much more attractive investment. How quickly to you think pausing a video with the voice will get old? And how well that works with the volume of the TV up?
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Nintendo_Ownes7

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#22 Nintendo_Ownes7
Member since 2005 • 30973 Posts

MS will market the hell out of kinect. Yeah it sucks, but chances are it'll be financially more successfull then Move, atleast in the begining.

I think Move be vastly better and more in tune with "core" gamers.

-Snooze-

If the developers do with Move what Nintendo is doing for their core first party games then I think Move might be successful for core gamers because Nintendo makes great use of Wii controls. Some 3rd Party developers and Nintendo make good use out of Wii Motion Plus but it still needs to catch on After Zelda: Skyward Sword I think more games for Motion Plus will be out if Developers follow what Nintendo is doing with Zelda on PS3 Action/Adventures that use Move it could work great.

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waltefmoney

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#23 waltefmoney
Member since 2010 • 18030 Posts

[QUOTE="-Snooze-"]

MS will market the hell out of kinect. Yeah it sucks, but chances are it'll be financially more successfull then Move, atleast in the begining.

I think Move be vastly better and more in tune with "core" gamers.

Blaze-Agent

i only see moderate success in Us and Flop everywhere else.

Of course you do.

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SecretPolice

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#24 SecretPolice
Member since 2007 • 45561 Posts

[QUOTE="SecretPolice"]

Kinect has far more potential that isn't being utilized upon it's release so by that...... Logic :P, Kinect gamers will likely get tons of software driven continual advancement & improvement over it's life cycle and Move, not so much.

Logically then, Kinect > Move

But seriously, I don't really care which witch is which. :P

Kane04

There's no logic in that :P Games like Gears of War can't be played with Kinect, there will be Kinect games, and regular games, that was another reason why the Eyetoy was unsuccessful. As far as potential goes pretty much any game can be adapt to be played with Move, see on Killzone 3. And by that logic Sony can force devs to make games compatible with Move, like the Trophies, and that will ensure more games, including "hardcore" games compatible with the Move making it a much more attractive investment. How quickly to you think pausing a video with the voice will get old? And how well that works with the volume of the TV up?

That wasn't just logic but rather it was the epitome of.... flawless logic. 8)

By saying you can't use Kinect for say a Gears or Halo misses the point completely since it's what happens in the future is where Kinect can really shine.

Here, perhaps this article says it better then me. :shock:

In a recent interview with Eurogamer, Microsoft's official Kinect advocate, Kudo Tsunoda, shared some more insight about the controller-less peripheral as it gears up for a November release, as well as a glimpse into Kinect's future.

Ever since it was revealed that Kinect's initial software lineup will include seemingly casual-geared titles such as Kinect Sports and Kinect Adventures, hardcore gamers have expressed their skepticism about what value the new peripheral will offer. Sure, there's still a lot of untapped potential, but that just has many core gamers already looking to the horizon for the second wave of Kinect games.

"If you have good gameplay depth, and the more you play the better you are at the game, that's what makes games addictive for core gamers," said Tsunoda, "and I think that's a lot of what we focused on in developing the Kinect launch line-up - making it accessible so you don't have to learn new controls every time you play a new game, but still providing all that gameplay depth and skill that core gamers love." Tsunoda went on to explain that launch titles like Kinect Adventures and Kinect Sports both feature multiplayer, player choice, and player-customization options - all things that many core gamers look for. While we can all agree that "accessible" isn't synonymous with "shallow," the type of gameplay depth he asserts that Kinect launch titles will contain may or may not be enough to satisfy core gamers.

That said, Tsunoda promises that Kinect will continue to evolve over time to support new features. For example, the ability for Kinect to scan a real-world object and then reproduce it digitally in-game is a feature that he expects to see used in a lot of future titles. It's a feature not utilized by any of the initial Kinect offerings. Other Kinect-ready features like, "being able to understand the intonation of somebody's voice and how they're saying something," and "human recognition" functionality that allows a user to sign in to Xbox Live simply by stepping in front of the sensor, could also have some interesting implementations in future Kinect games.

Tsunoda also notes that new games could be developed which utilize Kinect in conjunction with standard controllers. "With Kinect it's all controller-free, but it's not like we're trying to take controllers out of the equation," he said. "You saw the great controller games we're showing today like Halo and Fable. I think games that involve both controllers and Kinect as well are totally possible." Though it's all potential at this point, the prospect of a core game that uses gesture and voice recognition, in addition to the standard controller, is pretty exciting.

---

Now, just imagine all the possibilities and really, I'm only debating this with you for fun and teh Logic. :P

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monson21502

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#25 monson21502
Member since 2009 • 8230 Posts

[QUOTE="-Snooze-"]

MS will market the hell out of kinect. Yeah it sucks, but chances are it'll be financially more successfull then Move, atleast in the begining.

I think Move be vastly better and more in tune with "core" gamers.

.

Nintendo_Ownes7

that dont make sence, ps3 already has core gamers move isnt gonna draw any of the wii crowd. kinect is.... most poeple will say why buy move its the same thing i already played on the wii. meanwhile they try kinect and think its really fun and something new. then they go out and buy it to put beside there wii or even replace their wii.

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Kane04

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#26 Kane04
Member since 2006 • 2115 Posts

By saying you can't use Kinect for say a Gears or Halo misses the point completely since it's what happens in the future is where Kinect can really shine.

Here, perhaps this article says it better then me. :shock:

In a recent interview with Eurogamer, Microsoft's official Kinect advocate, Kudo Tsunoda, shared some more insight about the controller-less peripheral as it gears up for a November release, as well as a glimpse into Kinect's future.(...)

SecretPolice
I'm gonna be honest, i dont care about both :P So i'm like you...

I'm only debating this with you for fun and teh Logic. :P

SecretPolice
There's no logic in future promises, as of now all we have is promises of a brilliant future. But MS in the past did the same for the original Xbox, i bought one after reading a brochure, i've heard so much about it to that point and that piece of paper just completely got me, the promise of a brilliant future. Was the Xbox bad? No, i really loved it and i miss it (i don't have it in my house anymore). Was it all that it promised it was/gonna be? Far from it IMO. I don't believe the Kinect has a lot of hidden potential like MS is trying to sell it, or it will be so hidden no dev will find it :P Maybe with a "Kinect Motion +" where you have to hear wrists and ankles bracelets and a bandana, but that would be much worst than Sony 3D glasses. What i've seen so far doesn't convince me, like i said before, it does little less that what's out and old. On the press conference the guy playing Star Wars was acting, when then big ship lands the character on screens moves to his side and the guy playing quickly mimics. Kinectic Animals is not ahead of Eyepet IMO actually i find Eyepet more impressive and overall more fun. So logically, MS what's to sell it, they'll show or say anything that can convince people to buy it. And so far what they have show was some acting and nothing really that far ahead from the Eyetoy. So logic tells me that shiny future will never exist outside MS PRs interviews :p
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#27 shinrabanshou
Member since 2009 • 8458 Posts

both hd dvd and betamax was better. but both didnt have support. just like the psp was better then the ds but ds got more support.

and kinect does bring something new... just look at the new brain age. even though there has been countless brain age games on 2 systems ds and wii brain age kinect will offer whole new gameplay. something move cant match. since sony choose to follow nintendo so close... thats ho kinect will win this battle imo. it can make ideas into new and fresh gameplay

monson21502

Are you seriously citing the blatant Brain Age rip-off game as "something new." You could make the same game with Move. You could probably make the same game with the Wii.

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waltefmoney

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#28 waltefmoney
Member since 2010 • 18030 Posts

I'm gonna be honest, i dont care about both :P So i'm like you... Kane04

So why did you start this thread then?!

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#29 Nintendo_Ownes7
Member since 2005 • 30973 Posts

[QUOTE="monson21502"]

both hd dvd and betamax was better. but both didnt have support. just like the psp was better then the ds but ds got more support.

and kinect does bring something new... just look at the new brain age. even though there has been countless brain age games on 2 systems ds and wii brain age kinect will offer whole new gameplay. something move cant match. since sony choose to follow nintendo so close... thats ho kinect will win this battle imo. it can make ideas into new and fresh gameplay

shinrabanshou

Are you seriously citing the blatant Brain Age rip-off game as "something new." You could make the same game with Move. You could probably make the same game with the Wii.

If it isn't published by Microsoft I think that Kinect Braintraining game will be on the Wii and Move the guy that is making that game for Kinect is the face of Brain Age on the DS and Wii.

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clr84651

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#30 clr84651
Member since 2010 • 5643 Posts
So how could a motion sensor only (Kinect) be better than a camera which sees you and 2 controllers that allow you to press buttons also (The Move)?
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waltefmoney

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#31 waltefmoney
Member since 2010 • 18030 Posts

So how could a motion sensor only (Kinect) be better than a camera which sees you and 2 controllers that allow you to press buttons also (The Move)?clr84651

The move camera does not see you(not like Kinect does). It sees the remote and guesses how close/far you are.

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SecretPolice

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#32 SecretPolice
Member since 2007 • 45561 Posts

[QUOTE="SecretPolice"]

By saying you can't use Kinect for say a Gears or Halo misses the point completely since it's what happens in the future is where Kinect can really shine.

Here, perhaps this article says it better then me. :shock:

In a recent interview with Eurogamer, Microsoft's official Kinect advocate, Kudo Tsunoda, shared some more insight about the controller-less peripheral as it gears up for a November release, as well as a glimpse into Kinect's future.(...)

Kane04

I'm gonna be honest, i dont care about both :P So i'm like you...

I'm only debating this with you for fun and teh Logic. :P

SecretPolice

There's no logic in future promises, as of now all we have is promises of a brilliant future. But MS in the past did the same for the original Xbox, i bought one after reading a brochure, i've heard so much about it to that point and that piece of paper just completely got me, the promise of a brilliant future. Was the Xbox bad? No, i really loved it and i miss it (i don't have it in my house anymore). Was it all that it promised it was/gonna be? Far from it IMO. I don't believe the Kinect has a lot of hidden potential like MS is trying to sell it, or it will be so hidden no dev will find it :PMaybe with a "Kinect Motion +" where you have to hear wrists and ankles bracelets and a bandana, but that would be much worst than Sony 3D glasses. What i've seen so far doesn't convince me, like i said before, it does little less that what's out and old. On the press conference the guy playing Star Wars was acting, when then big ship lands the character on screens moves to his side and the guy playing quickly mimics. Kinectic Animals is not ahead of Eyepet IMO actually i find Eyepet more impressive and overall more fun. So logically, MS what's to sell it, they'll show or say anything that can convince people to buy it. And so far what they have show was some acting and nothing really that far ahead from the Eyetoy. So logic tells me that shiny future will never exist outside MS PRs interviews :p

That part truly made me :lol: thanks.

I hear ya but I would only say that Xbox wouldn't be a good indication of the MS promises since they really got umm, screwed by the chip maker but rather why not look to the 360 where MS has really delivered the goods with continued improvement in games, XBL, XBLA and the console itself.. 360 S ? In my estimation they have even exceeded some expectations for this gen so I'll CHOOSE :P to look there for some insurance that Kinect will walk in the same footsteps as the 360... minus the RRoD of course. :twisted:

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WhenCicadasCry

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#33 WhenCicadasCry
Member since 2010 • 2727 Posts

They both look equally lame, so who the hell gives a damn. :|

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ManicAce

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#34 ManicAce
Member since 2009 • 3267 Posts
Kinect is copying the less succesfull Eyetoy in function, but it's following the more popular wiimote in marketing. Move is kinda using the opposite strategy, we'll see which works the best.
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KodiakGTS

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#35 KodiakGTS
Member since 2003 • 1262 Posts

I don't know if Kinect is better than move, because I haven't had a chance to try move yet. I'm dissapointed, however, that to try and make your point, you're continuing the ridiculous arguement put forth by cows that Kinect and the EyeToy have roughly the same capabilities. Microsoft isn't latching on to some pipedream from last gen. They had their eyetoy moment already, it was called the vision cam, and the experience was just as terrible as the eyetoy we all know and love.

Being able to have complete freedom of movement in a 3D space regardless of lighting conditions is different than moving in a 2D plane. There are 3D motions done in Dance Central and Kinect Adventures that are literally impossible to replicatevia the eyetoy.

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Javy03

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#36 Javy03
Member since 2006 • 6886 Posts

That part truly made me :lol: thanks.

I hear ya but I would only say that Xbox wouldn't be a good indication of the MS promises since they really got umm, screwed by the chip maker but rather why not look to the 360 where MS has really delivered the goods with continued improvement in games, XBL, XBLA and the console itself.. 360 S ? In my estimation they have even exceeded some expectations for this gen so I'll CHOOSE :P to look there for some insurance that Kinect will walk in the same footsteps as the 360... minus the RRoD of course. :twisted:

SecretPolice

The 360 is a FANTASTIC system but I don't think it's success or track record can speak for the success of Kinect. For one, they aren't exactly targeting the same audience. I mean MS is making sure to give the FPS, Halo fans what they want on the 360 and Kinect is not doing much to pull those fans into playing FPSs differently.

Video game add ons depend HEAVILY on the support of 1st and 3rd party devs. I don't think MS can promise that long term. For one MS is doing the fatal mistake that Nintendo made which cost them much 3rd party support, they made their hardware too different then the competition. The Wii get's left out of great multiplats because it's controls and hardware is too hard to directly port. Now with Kinects being different then the Wii and Move it will get left out of quick ports, forcing devs to go exclusive which won't happen often. And as we can currently see by the dry spells of exclusives for the 360, MS can't support a system alone with just their 1st party strength.

I think Sony was smart to copy Nintendo's control scheme. Now they get multiplats with Nintendo's 3rd party games and multiplats with the 360s 3rd party games and doesn't really get left out. Nintendo can't handle 360/PS3 multiplats and MS can't play games built with the Wii/PS3s motion controls so they both have to have strong 1st party support. I feel sorry for Rare, they are gonna have to carry Kinect and I don't think they have the talent to do so.