Why graphics/presentation are so important.

Some people claim that great gameplay alone can make a great game. To them the quality of the graphics is always a secondary concern.

However, I beg to disagree. From the perspective of the sublime, both the quality of a game's graphics, as well as its gameplay, determines how sublime a game actually is. For a game to be sublime, it is important that these two factors be indirectly correlated with one another.

Why?

The more aesthetically pleasing a game's graphics are, the more immersed a player will be when playing the game. Great graphics allow a player to be more focused on playing the game and absorbing a game's plot. Hence, graphics are very important in creating that suspension of disbelief that allows a video game's potential to be sublime to demonstrate itself to the player, via gameplay and plot alone.

So, graphics are not directly correlated with sublimity; more aesthetically pleasing graphics can allow a player to be more focused on the elements of a game that could potentially allow for a sublime experience - i.e., the gameplay and plot.

Now, the question is, what is this "sublimity" that I keep mentioning so much?

Sublimity is a feeling that is often difficult to describe, but it describes a feeling of greatness and astonishment on part of a person experiencing the sublime.

For example, I consider the game Mass Effect to be quite sublime. Firstly, it is set in the backdrop of the cosmos - the juxtaposition of the cosmos and the humanity's problems in the galaxy create a feeling of astonishment, because no matter what humanity does to gain a Council seat or prevent the Reapers from coming back, humanity's problems, from the perspective of the entire universe as a whole, are completely insignificant. This realization that humanity's problems are insignificant generates astonishment, and hence, a feeling of the sublime when one is playing Mass Effect. Also, it is that terrifying thought that life in the galaxy can be completely wiped out by a species infinitely greater than our own that contributes to this feeling of the sublime.

And also, Mass Effect's graphics were quite nice and were also able to sustain this immersion, generating a suspension of disbelief great enough so that the feeling of the sublime could be sustained.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but does everyone get what I am saying here? If you didn't quite get what I just said, then here's the conclusion:

Good graphics = immersion/suspension of disbelief = focus on gameplay and plot = focus on gameplay and plot can lead to feelings of the sublime.

just about every game this gen has good graphics to me so.....

Graphics are still, however less important than gameplay.

Tl:dr Did you say sublime??? Arent those those things on dragon quest?BioDogshock

Son, this Wikipedia article should get you started. Sublime in this context refers to an aesthetic quality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublime_%28philosophy%29

Congratulations you beat me to it. I agree with you on nearly every level. But some games use graphics better than others. Whearas some use them to add visuals prettyniss, a game like Crysis benifits deeply from its graphical genius that is CRYENGINE 2. Would Crysis be nothing without its graphics? Yep definatly because alot of the gameplay was built around the awesome graphics. Crysis IMO is the smartest game in terms of using graphics to make new types of gameplay possible. Good post BTW

I agree.

Graphics and gameplay go hand in hand.

[QUOTE="BioDogshock"]Tl:dr Did you say sublime??? Arent those those things on dragon quest?The_Capitalist

Son, this Wikipedia article should get you started. Sublime in this context refers to an aesthetic quality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublime_%28philosophy%29

I agree.

Graphics and gameplay go hand in hand.

Snagal123

Same....

Graphics are still, however less important than gameplay.

SgtKevali

For certain games, but for others graphics affect gameplay.

Graphics do matter, but there are people who place far too much importance on them. I can play Killzone 2, and then I can play Bioshock. Bioshock doesn't look as good as Killzone 2, yet I can still get just as immersed, if not more, in the games world. Anjunaddict

This is true. As long as game's graphics aren't horrendous, they can immerse you just as well.

The more aesthetically pleasing a game's graphics are, the more immersed a player will be when playing the game.

The_Capitalist

Nah. Graphics can play a part, but isn't necessary for any level of immersion to take place. There can be a complimenting relationship between the two, absolutely.

Graphics matter as I spend the entire game watching the screen :P

System Wars: Books can't be immersive because they don't have graphics.

Illustrative reductio ad absurdum: James Cameron > J.R.R. Tolkien.

Thank you, System Wars!

Graphics do matter, but there are people who place far too much importance on them. I can play Killzone 2, and then I can play Bioshock. Bioshock doesn't look as good as Killzone 2, yet I can still get just as immersed, if not more, in the games world. Anjunaddict

But BioShock had a very unique art style which encouraged the player to explore more. That in itself can generate the immersion that the player needs - a feeling of wanting more. And of course, this feeling can be satiated only by going through with the gameplay.

Not every game is suppose to "immerse" you (I find this such a BS term). Puzzle games don't noob super graphics, infact most games don't. I know some people can't take a mediocore looking gae but te whole idea that "sublime" graphics matter just doesn't fly with me.

System Wars: Books can't be immersive because they don't have graphics.

Illustrative reductio ad absurdum: James Cameron > J.R.R. Tolkien.

Thank you, System Wars!

LordQuorthon

Since when I did mention books in my post?

Words in themselves have aesthetic qualities which can immerse you in the greater story of a book. Hence, the language of a book and how it is used is analogous to graphics expressing the gameplay and plot in a game. Language and graphics are different, but serve the same purpose in both of these mediums.

I was messing with the editor in Crysis and I can honestly say that graphics do matter, suchbeauty in a game can mesmerize someone. These pictures I made are truely sublime ;) .

I can still put simple games like tetris and pacman above lair and haze. King_Dodongo

Laire and Haze may have had the graphics to back them up, but of course, awful gameplay and awful plotlines can destroy that feeling of immersion very quickly.

Hence, which is why gameplay and graphics go hand in hand.

Some people claim that great gameplay alone can make a great game. To them the quality of the graphics is always a secondary concern.

However, I beg to disagree. From the perspective of the sublime, both the quality of a game's graphics, as well as its gameplay, determines how sublime a game actually is. For a game to be sublime, it is important that these two factors be indirectly correlated with one another.

Why?

The more aesthetically pleasing a game's graphics are, the more immersed a player will be when playing the game. Great graphics allow a player to be more focused on playing the game and absorbing a game's plot. Hence, graphics are very important in creating that suspension of disbelief that allows a video game's potential to be sublime to demonstrate itself to the player, via gameplay and plot alone.

So, graphics are not directly correlated with sublimity; more aesthetically pleasing graphics can allow a player to be more focused on the elements of a game that could potentially allow for a sublime experience - i.e., the gameplay and plot.

Now, the question is, what is this "sublimity" that I keep mentioning so much?

Sublimity is a feeling that is often difficult to describe, but it describes a feeling of greatness and astonishment on part of a person experiencing the sublime.

For example, I consider the game Mass Effect to be quite sublime. Firstly, it is set in the backdrop of the cosmos - the juxtaposition of the cosmos and the humanity's problems in the galaxy create a feeling of astonishment, because no matter what humanity does to gain a Council seat or prevent the Reapers from coming back, humanity's problems, from the perspective of the entire universe as a whole, are completely insignificant. This realization that humanity's problems are insignificant generates astonishment, and hence, a feeling of the sublime when one is playing Mass Effect. Also, it is that terrifying thought that life in the galaxy can be completely wiped out by a species infinitely greater than our own that contributes to this feeling of the sublime.

And also, Mass Effect's graphics were quite nice and were also able to sustain this immersion, generating a suspension of disbelief great enough so that the feeling of the sublime could be sustained.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but does everyone get what I am saying here? If you didn't quite get what I just said, then here's the conclusion:

Good graphics = immersion/suspension of disbelief = focus on gameplay and plot = focus on gameplay and plot can lead to feelings of the sublime.

The_Capitalist

so what your saying is that Half-life 1 isnt immersive becasue it dosnt have good graphics, do you mean aesthetically pleasing as in its nice to look at and not entirely on a technical level, becasue i can name so many games taht are garbage that have pretty graphics, whereas older games like castlevania, metroid still immerse you and capture the feel of the game by not using high tech stuff. Your post fails if you mean games with only high end graphics are good/immersive.

Crysis only had two moments where it expressed its sublimity the greatest: the alien sphere, and the scene of the alien on the aircraft carrier. In both cases, the way in which the aliens are portrayed allowed the player to see how terrifying they are, how much they can rip our organs right out of our bodies... Such thoughts can easily generate a feeling of the sublime...

[QUOTE="The_Capitalist"]

Some people claim that great gameplay alone can make a great game. To them the quality of the graphics is always a secondary concern.

However, I beg to disagree. From the perspective of the sublime, both the quality of a game's graphics, as well as its gameplay, determines how sublime a game actually is. For a game to be sublime, it is important that these two factors be indirectly correlated with one another.

Why?

The more aesthetically pleasing a game's graphics are, the more immersed a player will be when playing the game. Great graphics allow a player to be more focused on playing the game and absorbing a game's plot. Hence, graphics are very important in creating that suspension of disbelief that allows a video game's potential to be sublime to demonstrate itself to the player, via gameplay and plot alone.

So, graphics are not directly correlated with sublimity; more aesthetically pleasing graphics can allow a player to be more focused on the elements of a game that could potentially allow for a sublime experience - i.e., the gameplay and plot.

Now, the question is, what is this "sublimity" that I keep mentioning so much?

Sublimity is a feeling that is often difficult to describe, but it describes a feeling of greatness and astonishment on part of a person experiencing the sublime.

For example, I consider the game Mass Effect to be quite sublime. Firstly, it is set in the backdrop of the cosmos - the juxtaposition of the cosmos and the humanity's problems in the galaxy create a feeling of astonishment, because no matter what humanity does to gain a Council seat or prevent the Reapers from coming back, humanity's problems, from the perspective of the entire universe as a whole, are completely insignificant. This realization that humanity's problems are insignificant generates astonishment, and hence, a feeling of the sublime when one is playing Mass Effect. Also, it is that terrifying thought that life in the galaxy can be completely wiped out by a species infinitely greater than our own that contributes to this feeling of the sublime.

And also, Mass Effect's graphics were quite nice and were also able to sustain this immersion, generating a suspension of disbelief great enough so that the feeling of the sublime could be sustained.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but does everyone get what I am saying here? If you didn't quite get what I just said, then here's the conclusion:

Good graphics = immersion/suspension of disbelief = focus on gameplay and plot = focus on gameplay and plot can lead to feelings of the sublime.

AlphaJC

so what your saying is that Half-life 1 isnt immersive becasue it dosnt have good graphics, do you mean aesthetically pleasing as in its nice to look at and not entirely on a technical level, becasue i can name so many games taht are garbage that have pretty graphics, whereas older games like castlevania, metroid still immerse you and capture the feel of the game by not using high tech stuff. Your post fails if you mean games with only high end graphics are good/immersive.

I knew someone would get to that.

From the perspective of 1998, Half-Life had damned good graphics. Of course, these visuals have not aged very well, but it is also important to note that Half-Life's general presentation (i.e., no cutscenes) can also allow the player to experience the sublime. For example, throughout much of Half-Life, the player is completely unaware of what his happening in the world around him, and that in itself creates a feeling of the sublime because what you are not aware of can kill you. That very thought of vulnerability, coupled through lack of information from the lack of cutscenes in the game generates a feeling of the sublime for the player.

I do think thatthe graphics are important, but they aren't vital to the overall experience. I think games likeBorderlands, which have decent graphics, but won't blow you away, are so much fun that you reallyget into the game. I think Left 4 Dead 2 looks better, but I have more fun with Borderlands, simply because it is a funner title imo. However , graphics are a very important aspect, since they are a way to draw the initial attention of the consumer, and once they draw them in, then it's time to snatch them with the gameplay!

Oh, and Far Cry 2 was an amazing looking title, but rather boring . So it is a like having a great looking wife, which you never have sex with!

I do think thatthe graphics are important, but they aren't vital to the overall experience. I think games likeBorderlands, which have decent graphics, but won't blow you away, are so much fun that you reallyget into the game. I think Left 4 Dead 2 looks better, but I have more fun with Borderlands, simply because it is a funner title imo. However , graphics are a very important aspect, since they are a way to draw the initial attention of the consumer, and once they draw them in, then it's time to snatch them with the gameplay!

godzillavskong

You don't understand: realistic graphics does not necessarily equate to aesthetically pleasing graphics. For example, there are many games whose graphics dwell in completely abstract territory, but these are also games that I consider aesthetically pleasing.

I know this concept of sublimity is difficult to swallow, but all you guys need to know is that aesthetically pleasing graphics can lead to immersion, and allow both gameplay and the plot to express themselves more fully to the player.

Please don't turn this into a Crysis loving/hating thread.

This applies to almost all games, being the best isin't the point its about the combination of graphics/sound and gameplay, each has to match the other and work together and create a better game overall.

[QUOTE="AlphaJC"]

[QUOTE="The_Capitalist"]

Some people claim that great gameplay alone can make a great game. To them the quality of the graphics is always a secondary concern.

However, I beg to disagree. From the perspective of the sublime, both the quality of a game's graphics, as well as its gameplay, determines how sublime a game actually is. For a game to be sublime, it is important that these two factors be indirectly correlated with one another.

Why?

The more aesthetically pleasing a game's graphics are, the more immersed a player will be when playing the game. Great graphics allow a player to be more focused on playing the game and absorbing a game's plot. Hence, graphics are very important in creating that suspension of disbelief that allows a video game's potential to be sublime to demonstrate itself to the player, via gameplay and plot alone.

So, graphics are not directly correlated with sublimity; more aesthetically pleasing graphics can allow a player to be more focused on the elements of a game that could potentially allow for a sublime experience - i.e., the gameplay and plot.

Now, the question is, what is this "sublimity" that I keep mentioning so much?

Sublimity is a feeling that is often difficult to describe, but it describes a feeling of greatness and astonishment on part of a person experiencing the sublime.

For example, I consider the game Mass Effect to be quite sublime. Firstly, it is set in the backdrop of the cosmos - the juxtaposition of the cosmos and the humanity's problems in the galaxy create a feeling of astonishment, because no matter what humanity does to gain a Council seat or prevent the Reapers from coming back, humanity's problems, from the perspective of the entire universe as a whole, are completely insignificant. This realization that humanity's problems are insignificant generates astonishment, and hence, a feeling of the sublime when one is playing Mass Effect. Also, it is that terrifying thought that life in the galaxy can be completely wiped out by a species infinitely greater than our own that contributes to this feeling of the sublime.

And also, Mass Effect's graphics were quite nice and were also able to sustain this immersion, generating a suspension of disbelief great enough so that the feeling of the sublime could be sustained.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but does everyone get what I am saying here? If you didn't quite get what I just said, then here's the conclusion:

Good graphics = immersion/suspension of disbelief = focus on gameplay and plot = focus on gameplay and plot can lead to feelings of the sublime.

The_Capitalist

so what your saying is that Half-life 1 isnt immersive becasue it dosnt have good graphics, do you mean aesthetically pleasing as in its nice to look at and not entirely on a technical level, becasue i can name so many games taht are garbage that have pretty graphics, whereas older games like castlevania, metroid still immerse you and capture the feel of the game by not using high tech stuff. Your post fails if you mean games with only high end graphics are good/immersive.

I knew someone would get to that.

From the perspective of 1998, Half-Life had damned good graphics. Of course, these visuals have not aged very well, but it is also important to note that Half-Life's general presentation (i.e., no cutscenes) can also allow the player to experience the sublime. For example, throughout much of Half-Life, the player is completely unaware of what his happening in the world around him, and that in itself creates a feeling of the sublime because what you are not aware of can kill you. That very thought of vulnerability, coupled through lack of information from the lack of cutscenes in the game generates a feeling of the sublime for the player.

ok i jsut wanted to make sure your one of thse posters saying "OMG the graphics arent good so meh" so what you mean is really the overall presenation, not neccesarily the technical graphics but how the environment is presented. Well Graphics cant really deliver without gameplay. If one part of teh game falls it tends to cripple the experience whether its gameplay, graphics, whatever. Every aspect of the game is important, not one thing is more important than the other, its a delicate balance.

Oh, and Far Cry 2 was an amazing looking title, but rather boring . So it is a like having a great looking wife, which you never have sex with!

godzillavskong

If gameplay is weak, then graphics do not matter. Good graphics are merely a enabler, but good graphics can not stand by itself.

Read my entire post please before jumping to conclusions about my conclusions.

[QUOTE="Masculus"]

I was messing with the editor in Crysis and I can honestly say that graphics do matter, suchbeauty in a game can mesmerize someone. These pictures I made are truely sublime ;) .

AlphaJC

o yes they mezmerize you into ignoring the average gunplay and terrible enemy AI in the game, and the super easy boss at the end. Sometimes people like shiny and they tend to forget what a game is supposed to be about. Its about fun, and to me looking at something pretty for 8 hours with ok gamplay isnt fun. If you want photorealistic graphics all the time to satiate your high you sould look outside or look at a photo. Untill crysis can match its visuals with gameplay, then we can talk or mention it. Crysis was simply a graphics benchmark.

*Sigh*

You feel better now? I liked crysis a lot, a lot of people do. I can only think about one FPS that I liked more than Crysis in the past 4 years. Why do you have to rant like that? I mean, why do you hate the game so much? Because it has bad AI or something?I never seen a person become enraged by the simple mentioning of game they didn't liked.

By the way I am not saying that Graphical fidelity will make a game better but often good games have a pleasant aspect to their graphics just like Super Mario Galaxy, or simpler games like Space Rangers all feel very pretty to me.Like it or not Video Games are a graphical midia as well - graphics do matter, not in technologic level but in a aesthetic one.

[QUOTE="godzillavskong"]

Oh, and Far Cry 2 was an amazing looking title, but rather boring . So it is a like having a great looking wife, which you never have sex with!

If gameplay is weak, then graphics do not matter. Good graphics are merely a enabler, but good graphics can not stand by itself.

Read my entire post please before jumping to conclusions about my conclusions.

[QUOTE="Anjunaddict"]Graphics do matter, but there are people who place far too much importance on them. I can play Killzone 2, and then I can play Bioshock. Bioshock doesn't look as good as Killzone 2, yet I can still get just as immersed, if not more, in the games world. The_Capitalist

But BioShock had a very unique art style which encouraged the player to explore more. That in itself can generate the immersion that the player needs - a feeling of wanting more. And of course, this feeling can be satiated only by going through with the gameplay.

people said that back when the snes and genesis were dueling it out

I was messing with the editor in Crysis and I can honestly say that graphics do matter, suchbeauty in a game can mesmerize someone. These pictures I made are truely sublime ;) .

Masculus

My problem with graphics is the complete focus on them right now. Games tend to be more flash than substance - assets are being shoved into looking good rather than playing good.

I'd rather developers spent more resources on making gameplay fun and rewarding, an interesting story, then concentrating on psychics and AI. Whatever is left can be used to make the game pretty. Hence why I thought the fuss about AW resolution was funny. I honestly don't care if it runs in 560p or 720p because my eyes would never tell the difference. I'm more interested in the story and gameplay than eye candy.

I kind of agree. Uncharted 2, for example, probably wouldn't have gotten all those high scores and GOTY awards without it's killer graphics.

Some people claim that great gameplay alone can make a great game. To them the quality of the graphics is always a secondary concern.

However, I beg to disagree. From the perspective of the sublime, both the quality of a game's graphics, as well as its gameplay, determines how sublime a game actually is. For a game to be sublime, it is important that these two factors be indirectly correlated with one another.

Why?

The more aesthetically pleasing a game's graphics are, the more immersed a player will be when playing the game. Great graphics allow a player to be more focused on playing the game and absorbing a game's plot. Hence, graphics are very important in creating that suspension of disbelief that allows a video game's potential to be sublime to demonstrate itself to the player, via gameplay and plot alone.

So, graphics are not directly correlated with sublimity; more aesthetically pleasing graphics can allow a player to be more focused on the elements of a game that could potentially allow for a sublime experience - i.e., the gameplay and plot.

Now, the question is, what is this "sublimity" that I keep mentioning so much?

Sublimity is a feeling that is often difficult to describe, but it describes a feeling of greatness and astonishment on part of a person experiencing the sublime.

For example, I consider the game Mass Effect to be quite sublime. Firstly, it is set in the backdrop of the cosmos - the juxtaposition of the cosmos and the humanity's problems in the galaxy create a feeling of astonishment, because no matter what humanity does to gain a Council seat or prevent the Reapers from coming back, humanity's problems, from the perspective of the entire universe as a whole, are completely insignificant. This realization that humanity's problems are insignificant generates astonishment, and hence, a feeling of the sublime when one is playing Mass Effect. Also, it is that terrifying thought that life in the galaxy can be completely wiped out by a species infinitely greater than our own that contributes to this feeling of the sublime.

And also, Mass Effect's graphics were quite nice and were also able to sustain this immersion, generating a suspension of disbelief great enough so that the feeling of the sublime could be sustained.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but does everyone get what I am saying here? If you didn't quite get what I just said, then here's the conclusion:

Good graphics = immersion/suspension of disbelief = focus on gameplay and plot = focus on gameplay and plot can lead to feelings of the sublime.

The_Capitalist

not really

art style = immersion

graphics = how you're immersed, not whether you're immersed

So, in your theory TC, all old games like from the NES, SNES era were bad because the graphics didn´t immerse the player into the game? I disagree with you, gameplay comes first. Of course, in eras like this it is important to have good graphics but they arent important as the gameplay. What do you prefer, the most beautiful game with awful gameplay of the game with the best gameplay and not having the best graphics?