Why PS3 and 360 are bad for hardcore gaming

One of the most consistent knocks on the Wii is how it is courting casual gamers and dumbing down games.  While everyone argues whether this is true, I think another point should be made.  That the nature of the 360 and PS3 losing exclusive content to one another is the biggest detrimental factor to hard core gaming this generation.  Let me explain.

Right now neither the 360 nor the PS3 have a large enough user base to warrant purely exclusive titles.  While some begin exclusive, ultimately it comes to pass that the title has been ported over to the competitor's console with added features.  If we consider the sales of these games across both platforms the IP does well, but on each individual system the results are lackluster.  I see this trend continuing.  I do not feel that the 360 will break ahead of the PS3 by a clear margin, nor vice versa.  They each have somewhat of a hold on a large market.  360 controls America, while the PS3 enjoys some dominance in Europe, with both floundering in Japan.

With the money for a game being poured into two deiffernt development teams the results will show.  The rush to get them to market at the same time will mean that both developments will need to have equal sums of money to ensure quality.  Granted, first-party content and exclusives will still be quality products, but the barrage of mediocre multi-plats will help put the nail in the coffins of many genres and IPs.

Couple this with the fact that Nintendo is becoming a global phenomenon and we will see even more money being pulled from the Next-gen consoles and put into the much cheaper to develop for Wii. 

So while it could be argued that the Wii is the cause of this decline in hardcore games, the fact that Microsoft and Sony continue to slit each other's throats for the same target audience can only mean bad things for both these powerhouses.  It is like two popular presidential candidates spending large amounts of money to defeat each other, while a third less likely candiate gains dominance after the top two have crippled each other.

Just a thought.

 nah

One of the most consistent knocks on the Wii is how it is courting casual gamers and dumbing down games. While everyone argues whether this is true, I think another point should be made. That the nature of the 360 and PS3 losing exclusive content to one another is the biggest detrimental factor to hard core gaming this generation. Let me explain.

Right now neither the 360 nor the PS3 have a large enough user base to warrant purely exclusive titles. While some begin exclusive, ultimately it comes to pass that the title has been ported over to the competitor's console with added features. If we consider the sales of these games across both platforms the IP does well, but on each individual system the results are lackluster. I see this trend continuing. I do not feel that the 360 will break ahead of the PS3 by a clear margin, nor vice versa. They each have somewhat of a hold on a large market. 360 controls America, while the PS3 enjoys some dominance in Europe, with both floundering in Japan.

With the money for a game being poured into two deiffernt development teams the results will show. The rush to get them to market at the same time will mean that both developments will need to have equal sums of money to ensure quality. Granted, first-party content and exclusives will still be quality products, but the barrage of mediocre multi-plats will help put the nail in the coffins of many genres and IPs.

Couple this with the fact that Nintendo is becoming a global phenomenon and we will see even more money being pulled from the Next-gen consoles and put into the much cheaper to develop for Wii.

So while it could be argued that the Wii is the cause of this decline in hardcore games, the fact that Microsoft and Sony continue to slit each other's throats for the same target audience can only mean bad things for both these powerhouses. It is like two popular presidential candidates spending large amounts of money to defeat each other, while a third less likely candiate gains dominance after the top two have crippled each other.

Just a thought.

super_etecoon

Xbox 360 has the highest attach rate

/fail 

I only consider the PC the only "true" hardcore gamers' platform. There are some hardcore games for the consoles but PC is the way to go if you're really hardcore.

The 360 has the best games and will have the best games coming this year.

I don't see why any "gamer" wouldn't want one, but I can see why a gamer wouldn't care about the dying PC genre, or the Wii with it's underwhelming graphics or the PS triple with it's horrible pricetag and underwhelming gaming library(bu...bu..you can ...play da....blu-ray movies!)

There are alot of console gamers out there who would love to play the newest AAA games for the PC, but are unable to due to the high price of buying or upgrading to a high enough performing PC. I don't think these ppl are any less "hardcore" than their PC-playing counterparts.

I only consider the PC the only "true" hardcore gamers' platform. There are some hardcore games for the consoles but PC is the way to go if you're really hardcore.

DA_B0MB

seriously... knowing some hardcore mmorpg and rts people... that's intense dedication

ive never lived in a game for more than a day...  

I only consider the PC the only "true" hardcore gamers' platform. There are some hardcore games for the consoles but PC is the way to go if you're really hardcore.

DA_B0MB

I consider the PC a hardware lover's platform and not a gamer's since games work like crap out of the box and you have to upgrade to even play the next good game like Crysis.

PC addicts will go out and upgrade thier PCs for a couple grand or more to get the full glory of Crysis

What I don't understand is how people can invest in hardware that isn't worth crap in a year or two and not use that money for nice clothes or even shampoo to wash their hair

you guys don't see the potential that both the 360 and the ps3 can end up in distant second to Nintendo because they are selling the same game.  Are you serious?  Who is going to buy both systems if they have the same games.  The hardcore audience will be split down the middle with no real strength on either side.  Games already compete with games.  That is, Dead Rising competes with gears of War.  Now, because of the loss of exclusive content games will be competing against themselves. 

 If you suggest otherwise, then there can be no knock against the Wii for killing the hardcore industry.  If you are saying that the PS3 and 360 combined are great for the hardcore market, then the Wii is off the hook and should not be held accountable for any damage to the credibility and relevance of hardcore gaming.  The PS3 and 360, with their boatloads of marketing and R & D cash should be immune to the effects of a kiddy console.

I've seen alot of WOW players who look eerily similar to the guy in Neal_Gore's profile pic.

South park rules...

[QUOTE="DA_B0MB"]

I only consider the PC the only "true" hardcore gamers' platform. There are some hardcore games for the consoles but PC is the way to go if you're really hardcore.

Neal_Gore

I consider the PC a hardware lover's platform and not a gamer's since games work like crap out of the box and you have to upgrade to even play the next good game like Crysis.

PC addicts will go out and upgrade thier PCs for a couple grand or more to get the full glory of Crysis

What I don't understand is how people can invest in hardware that isn't worth crap in a year or two and not use that money for nice clothes or even shampoo to wash their hair

-.- generilization for teh lose., and your sig is 10x worse, tell me what system are you fanboying?

There are more casual PC Gamers than any platform even the Wii, while we also have the most hardcore.

And it costs nowhere near as much as you make out, why do you even bother to post such dribble!? 

you guys don't see the potential that both the 360 and the ps3 can end up in distant second to Nintendo because they are selling the same game. Are you serious? Who is going to buy both systems if they have the same games. The hardcore audience will be split down the middle with no real strength on either side. Games already compete with games. That is, Dead Rising competes with gears of War. Now, because of the loss of exclusive content games will be competing against themselves.

If you suggest otherwise, then there can be no knock against the Wii for killing the hardcore industry. If you are saying that the PS3 and 360 combined are great for the hardcore market, then the Wii is off the hook and should not be held accountable for any damage to the credibility and relevance of hardcore gaming. The PS3 and 360, with their boatloads of marketing and R & D cash should be immune to the effects of a kiddy console.

super_etecoon

Did you just say dead rising competes with gears of war?

Please never make a thread again... 

You don't think games compete with games?  Are you kidding me?  Every Intellectual Property is in competition with each other for your dollar.  Just because two bands are on the same label, or two movies come from the same production company does not mean that they are not hurting each other's sales.  Your insult is self ownage.

[QUOTE="Neal_Gore"][QUOTE="DA_B0MB"]

I only consider the PC the only "true" hardcore gamers' platform. There are some hardcore games for the consoles but PC is the way to go if you're really hardcore.

Meu2k7

I consider the PC a hardware lover's platform and not a gamer's since games work like crap out of the box and you have to upgrade to even play the next good game like Crysis.

PC addicts will go out and upgrade thier PCs for a couple grand or more to get the full glory of Crysis

What I don't understand is how people can invest in hardware that isn't worth crap in a year or two and not use that money for nice clothes or even shampoo to wash their hair

-.- generilization for teh lose., and your sig is 10x worse, tell me what system are you fanboying?

There are more casual PC Gamers than any platform even the Wii, while we also have the most hardcore.

And it costs nowhere near as much as you make out, why do you even bother to post such dribble!? 

Let me ask you a question, If i wanted to play Crysis and I needed a new PC and couldn't just upgrade cause the only thing worth keeping would be the case, how much would it cost me?

I figure at least 2000 to 3000 to play the game at decent settings

That game stalker don't even run smooth on the recommended settings on THQs site

IMHO people need to get some fresh air if they buy a PC to play Crysis which they will have to pay 2 to 3 grand to play at decent settings and to get decent frames, don't even lie and say "I could build a hardcore gaming rig for the thousand dollars!" 

You don't think games compete with games?  Are you kidding me?  Every Intellectual Property is in competition with each other for your dollar.  Just because two bands are on the same label, or two movies come from the same production company does not mean that they are not hurting each other's sales.  Your insult is self ownage.

super_etecoon

Most people(with common sense) will most likely go for the best value which means a decent price and the ability to play the game with good graphics like the Xbox 360

Do you think if the Ps3 had the same games as the 360 it would outsell the 360 at the PS3's current pricetag?

I'll answer for you - absolutely no!

[QUOTE="Meu2k7"][QUOTE="Neal_Gore"][QUOTE="DA_B0MB"]

I only consider the PC the only "true" hardcore gamers' platform. There are some hardcore games for the consoles but PC is the way to go if you're really hardcore.

Neal_Gore

I consider the PC a hardware lover's platform and not a gamer's since games work like crap out of the box and you have to upgrade to even play the next good game like Crysis.

PC addicts will go out and upgrade thier PCs for a couple grand or more to get the full glory of Crysis

What I don't understand is how people can invest in hardware that isn't worth crap in a year or two and not use that money for nice clothes or even shampoo to wash their hair

-.- generilization for teh lose., and your sig is 10x worse, tell me what system are you fanboying?

There are more casual PC Gamers than any platform even the Wii, while we also have the most hardcore.

And it costs nowhere near as much as you make out, why do you even bother to post such dribble!? 

Let me ask you a question, If i wanted to play Crysis and I needed a new PC and couldn't just upgrade cause the only thing worth keeping would be the case, how much would it cost me?

I figure at least 2000 to 3000 to play the game at decent settings

That game stalker don't even run smooth on the recommended settings on THQs site

IMHO people need to get some fresh air if they buy a PC to play Crysis which they will have to pay 2 to 3 grand to play at decent settings and to get decent frames, don't even lie and say "I could build a hardcore gaming rig for the thousand dollars!" 

[QUOTE="Neal_Gore"][QUOTE="Meu2k7"][QUOTE="Neal_Gore"][QUOTE="DA_B0MB"]

I only consider the PC the only "true" hardcore gamers' platform. There are some hardcore games for the consoles but PC is the way to go if you're really hardcore.

pundog

I consider the PC a hardware lover's platform and not a gamer's since games work like crap out of the box and you have to upgrade to even play the next good game like Crysis.

PC addicts will go out and upgrade thier PCs for a couple grand or more to get the full glory of Crysis

What I don't understand is how people can invest in hardware that isn't worth crap in a year or two and not use that money for nice clothes or even shampoo to wash their hair

-.- generilization for teh lose., and your sig is 10x worse, tell me what system are you fanboying?

There are more casual PC Gamers than any platform even the Wii, while we also have the most hardcore.

And it costs nowhere near as much as you make out, why do you even bother to post such dribble!? 

Let me ask you a question, If i wanted to play Crysis and I needed a new PC and couldn't just upgrade cause the only thing worth keeping would be the case, how much would it cost me?

I figure at least 2000 to 3000 to play the game at decent settings

That game stalker don't even run smooth on the recommended settings on THQs site

IMHO people need to get some fresh air if they buy a PC to play Crysis which they will have to pay 2 to 3 grand to play at decent settings and to get decent frames, don't even lie and say "I could build a hardcore gaming rig for the thousand dollars!" 

So it's at zero right now?

[QUOTE="Meu2k7"][QUOTE="Neal_Gore"][QUOTE="DA_B0MB"]

I only consider the PC the only "true" hardcore gamers' platform. There are some hardcore games for the consoles but PC is the way to go if you're really hardcore.

Neal_Gore

I consider the PC a hardware lover's platform and not a gamer's since games work like crap out of the box and you have to upgrade to even play the next good game like Crysis.

PC addicts will go out and upgrade thier PCs for a couple grand or more to get the full glory of Crysis

What I don't understand is how people can invest in hardware that isn't worth crap in a year or two and not use that money for nice clothes or even shampoo to wash their hair

-.- generilization for teh lose., and your sig is 10x worse, tell me what system are you fanboying?

There are more casual PC Gamers than any platform even the Wii, while we also have the most hardcore.

And it costs nowhere near as much as you make out, why do you even bother to post such dribble!?

Let me ask you a question, If i wanted to play Crysis and I needed a new PC and couldn't just upgrade cause the only thing worth keeping would be the case, how much would it cost me?

I figure at least 2000 to 3000 to play the game at decent settings

That game stalker don't even run smooth on the recommended settings on THQs site

IMHO people need to get some fresh air if they buy a PC to play Crysis which they will have to pay 2 to 3 grand to play at decent settings and to get decent frames, don't even lie and say "I could build a hardcore gaming rig for the thousand dollars!"

Max? 1500 with all the bells and whistles 1500, Medium 800-1200.

 That will tide you over for Mobo/GPU replacement for a long long time, since only crysis between now and some time in 2008 when Alan Wake is released will Quad Cores be even touched. let alone needed.

Im sorry , your just a generilzing idiot, Xbox360 users can be be alot more lifeless than any gamer, its not based on system and your trolling, so tell me, who really needs the fresh air?

[QUOTE="Neal_Gore"][QUOTE="Meu2k7"][QUOTE="Neal_Gore"][QUOTE="DA_B0MB"]

I only consider the PC the only "true" hardcore gamers' platform. There are some hardcore games for the consoles but PC is the way to go if you're really hardcore.

Meu2k7

I consider the PC a hardware lover's platform and not a gamer's since games work like crap out of the box and you have to upgrade to even play the next good game like Crysis.

PC addicts will go out and upgrade thier PCs for a couple grand or more to get the full glory of Crysis

What I don't understand is how people can invest in hardware that isn't worth crap in a year or two and not use that money for nice clothes or even shampoo to wash their hair

-.- generilization for teh lose., and your sig is 10x worse, tell me what system are you fanboying?

There are more casual PC Gamers than any platform even the Wii, while we also have the most hardcore.

And it costs nowhere near as much as you make out, why do you even bother to post such dribble!?

Let me ask you a question, If i wanted to play Crysis and I needed a new PC and couldn't just upgrade cause the only thing worth keeping would be the case, how much would it cost me?

I figure at least 2000 to 3000 to play the game at decent settings

That game stalker don't even run smooth on the recommended settings on THQs site

IMHO people need to get some fresh air if they buy a PC to play Crysis which they will have to pay 2 to 3 grand to play at decent settings and to get decent frames, don't even lie and say "I could build a hardcore gaming rig for the thousand dollars!"

Max? 1500 with all the bells and whistles 1500, Medium 800-1200.

 That will tide you over for Mobo/GPU replacement for a long long time, since only crysis between now and some time in 2008 when Alan Wake is released will Quad Cores be even touched. let alone needed.

Im sorry , your just a generilzing idiot, Xbox360 users can be be alot more lifeless than any gamer, its not based on system and your trolling, so tell me, who really needs the fresh air?

You're the idiot cause you didn't know that Crysis will be optimized for the quad core processors

[QUOTE="Meu2k7"][QUOTE="Neal_Gore"][QUOTE="Meu2k7"][QUOTE="Neal_Gore"][QUOTE="DA_B0MB"]

I only consider the PC the only "true" hardcore gamers' platform. There are some hardcore games for the consoles but PC is the way to go if you're really hardcore.

Neal_Gore

I consider the PC a hardware lover's platform and not a gamer's since games work like crap out of the box and you have to upgrade to even play the next good game like Crysis.

PC addicts will go out and upgrade thier PCs for a couple grand or more to get the full glory of Crysis

What I don't understand is how people can invest in hardware that isn't worth crap in a year or two and not use that money for nice clothes or even shampoo to wash their hair

-.- generilization for teh lose., and your sig is 10x worse, tell me what system are you fanboying?

There are more casual PC Gamers than any platform even the Wii, while we also have the most hardcore.

And it costs nowhere near as much as you make out, why do you even bother to post such dribble!?

Let me ask you a question, If i wanted to play Crysis and I needed a new PC and couldn't just upgrade cause the only thing worth keeping would be the case, how much would it cost me?

I figure at least 2000 to 3000 to play the game at decent settings

That game stalker don't even run smooth on the recommended settings on THQs site

IMHO people need to get some fresh air if they buy a PC to play Crysis which they will have to pay 2 to 3 grand to play at decent settings and to get decent frames, don't even lie and say "I could build a hardcore gaming rig for the thousand dollars!"

Max? 1500 with all the bells and whistles 1500, Medium 800-1200.

That will tide you over for Mobo/GPU replacement for a long long time, since only crysis between now and some time in 2008 when Alan Wake is released will Quad Cores be even touched. let alone needed.

Im sorry , your just a generilzing idiot, Xbox360 users can be be alot more lifeless than any gamer, its not based on system and your trolling, so tell me, who really needs the fresh air?

You're the idiot cause you didn't know that Crysis will be optimized for the quad core processors

and?  that doesnt mean it requires anything close to a quad core..... 

[QUOTE="Meu2k7"][QUOTE="Neal_Gore"][QUOTE="Meu2k7"][QUOTE="Neal_Gore"][QUOTE="DA_B0MB"]

I only consider the PC the only "true" hardcore gamers' platform. There are some hardcore games for the consoles but PC is the way to go if you're really hardcore.

Neal_Gore

I consider the PC a hardware lover's platform and not a gamer's since games work like crap out of the box and you have to upgrade to even play the next good game like Crysis.

PC addicts will go out and upgrade thier PCs for a couple grand or more to get the full glory of Crysis

What I don't understand is how people can invest in hardware that isn't worth crap in a year or two and not use that money for nice clothes or even shampoo to wash their hair

-.- generilization for teh lose., and your sig is 10x worse, tell me what system are you fanboying?

There are more casual PC Gamers than any platform even the Wii, while we also have the most hardcore.

And it costs nowhere near as much as you make out, why do you even bother to post such dribble!?

Let me ask you a question, If i wanted to play Crysis and I needed a new PC and couldn't just upgrade cause the only thing worth keeping would be the case, how much would it cost me?

I figure at least 2000 to 3000 to play the game at decent settings

That game stalker don't even run smooth on the recommended settings on THQs site

IMHO people need to get some fresh air if they buy a PC to play Crysis which they will have to pay 2 to 3 grand to play at decent settings and to get decent frames, don't even lie and say "I could build a hardcore gaming rig for the thousand dollars!"

Max? 1500 with all the bells and whistles 1500, Medium 800-1200.

That will tide you over for Mobo/GPU replacement for a long long time, since only crysis between now and some time in 2008 when Alan Wake is released will Quad Cores be even touched. let alone needed.

Im sorry , your just a generilzing idiot, Xbox360 users can be be alot more lifeless than any gamer, its not based on system and your trolling, so tell me, who really needs the fresh air?

You're the idiot cause you didn't know that Crysis will be optimized for the quad core processors

Read again, I said BETWEEN Crysis and Alan wake, and the Crytek devolopers have already stated they are not using Quad Cores in development and they have no idea how the performance will run on them as of yet, so its not need AT ALL basically.

Thats all you had? Just stop posting, and go play your 360 if you truly think its the only system left thats half decent >> your sig is hilarious. 

[QUOTE="Neal_Gore"][QUOTE="Meu2k7"][QUOTE="Neal_Gore"][QUOTE="Meu2k7"][QUOTE="Neal_Gore"][QUOTE="DA_B0MB"]

I only consider the PC the only "true" hardcore gamers' platform. There are some hardcore games for the consoles but PC is the way to go if you're really hardcore.

Meu2k7

I consider the PC a hardware lover's platform and not a gamer's since games work like crap out of the box and you have to upgrade to even play the next good game like Crysis.

PC addicts will go out and upgrade thier PCs for a couple grand or more to get the full glory of Crysis

What I don't understand is how people can invest in hardware that isn't worth crap in a year or two and not use that money for nice clothes or even shampoo to wash their hair

-.- generilization for teh lose., and your sig is 10x worse, tell me what system are you fanboying?

There are more casual PC Gamers than any platform even the Wii, while we also have the most hardcore.

And it costs nowhere near as much as you make out, why do you even bother to post such dribble!?

Let me ask you a question, If i wanted to play Crysis and I needed a new PC and couldn't just upgrade cause the only thing worth keeping would be the case, how much would it cost me?

I figure at least 2000 to 3000 to play the game at decent settings

That game stalker don't even run smooth on the recommended settings on THQs site

IMHO people need to get some fresh air if they buy a PC to play Crysis which they will have to pay 2 to 3 grand to play at decent settings and to get decent frames, don't even lie and say "I could build a hardcore gaming rig for the thousand dollars!"

Max? 1500 with all the bells and whistles 1500, Medium 800-1200.

That will tide you over for Mobo/GPU replacement for a long long time, since only crysis between now and some time in 2008 when Alan Wake is released will Quad Cores be even touched. let alone needed.

Im sorry , your just a generilzing idiot, Xbox360 users can be be alot more lifeless than any gamer, its not based on system and your trolling, so tell me, who really needs the fresh air?

You're the idiot cause you didn't know that Crysis will be optimized for the quad core processors

Read again, I said BETWEEN Crysis and Alan wake, and the Crytek devolopers have already stated they are not using Quad Cores in development and they have no idea how the performance will run on them as of yet, so its not need AT ALL basically.

Thats all you had? Just stop posting, and go play your 360 if you truly think its the only system left thats half decent >> your sig is hilarious. 

K, I'll go play my 360 and you go play the Sims with the "dirty mods":shock:

And do you think the Wii is good for hardcore gaming, I really want your opinion.archpro

No, I do not think the Wii is good for hardcore gaming.  Not directly at least.  It will be a given that the games on Wii will generally be more accessible and pick up and play than what is on the 360 and the PS3. 

This thread is a response to people who somehow believe that the Wii is bad for hardcore gaming.  IMO the Wii actually is good for hardcore gaming because it has defined itself as the console for casuals.  I think the Wii has created an identity for itself.  I just think that the 360 and the PS3 should as well and stop trying to be better versions of each other.  Three consoles is great for everyone, but it isn't when two are just bad copies of each other.

[QUOTE="Meu2k7"][QUOTE="Neal_Gore"][QUOTE="Meu2k7"][QUOTE="Neal_Gore"][QUOTE="Meu2k7"][QUOTE="Neal_Gore"][QUOTE="DA_B0MB"]

I only consider the PC the only "true" hardcore gamers' platform. There are some hardcore games for the consoles but PC is the way to go if you're really hardcore.

Neal_Gore

I consider the PC a hardware lover's platform and not a gamer's since games work like crap out of the box and you have to upgrade to even play the next good game like Crysis.

PC addicts will go out and upgrade thier PCs for a couple grand or more to get the full glory of Crysis

What I don't understand is how people can invest in hardware that isn't worth crap in a year or two and not use that money for nice clothes or even shampoo to wash their hair

-.- generilization for teh lose., and your sig is 10x worse, tell me what system are you fanboying?

There are more casual PC Gamers than any platform even the Wii, while we also have the most hardcore.

And it costs nowhere near as much as you make out, why do you even bother to post such dribble!?

Let me ask you a question, If i wanted to play Crysis and I needed a new PC and couldn't just upgrade cause the only thing worth keeping would be the case, how much would it cost me?

I figure at least 2000 to 3000 to play the game at decent settings

That game stalker don't even run smooth on the recommended settings on THQs site

IMHO people need to get some fresh air if they buy a PC to play Crysis which they will have to pay 2 to 3 grand to play at decent settings and to get decent frames, don't even lie and say "I could build a hardcore gaming rig for the thousand dollars!"

Max? 1500 with all the bells and whistles 1500, Medium 800-1200.

That will tide you over for Mobo/GPU replacement for a long long time, since only crysis between now and some time in 2008 when Alan Wake is released will Quad Cores be even touched. let alone needed.

Im sorry , your just a generilzing idiot, Xbox360 users can be be alot more lifeless than any gamer, its not based on system and your trolling, so tell me, who really needs the fresh air?

You're the idiot cause you didn't know that Crysis will be optimized for the quad core processors

Read again, I said BETWEEN Crysis and Alan wake, and the Crytek devolopers have already stated they are not using Quad Cores in development and they have no idea how the performance will run on them as of yet, so its not need AT ALL basically.

Thats all you had? Just stop posting, and go play your 360 if you truly think its the only system left thats half decent >> your sig is hilarious.

K, I'll go play my 360 and you go play the Sims with the "dirty mods":shock:

I'm not going to bother posting the list of PC games in the next 2 quarters, youl find some way to twist it, truly pathetic, way to NOT contribute.